DeYoung and Shaw - THE talent in Styx

[rajah2165]

I think this needs to be said...

What made Styx was TS and DDY. Period. Without either of those two, the band does not perform as well as when those two are together in the fold. The other members (with the exception of Glen Burtnik) are mediocre talents at best.

As much as TS has P1$$3d me off over the years, there is no question that he has made a signficant contribution with his songwriting to Styx. He has written some gems and his vocals (especially when harmonizing with DDY) are a true asset that made that Styx sound. His guitar playing is quite average in my opinion especially when compared to some of the guitar greats out there - and even compared to someone like a Neil Schon of Journey. But his vocals, his songwriting are for the most part outstanding.

DDY is obviously the foundation and has the vocal chops, the songwriting skills, the production acumen, and also the creativity to create something that was truly unique in the rock world. His harmonizing with Shaw and his songwriting brought the band much of its commercial success. Like Shaw's guitar playing, his instrumentation pales in comparison to his other talents, but he is still a well regarded keyboardist. I don't think he will go own as the greatest keyboardist that ever lived, but certainly is in the top 20.

The rest of the members put the proverbial saddle on DeYoung and Shaw and rode their talents to success. JY is an average guitar player at best (I consider him a notch below Shaw), is NOT a good lead vocalist, and is very much a one dimensional songwriter. He has never really written or sung a commercial hit, and one could argue that outside of his "supposed" business acumen, he doesn't bring much to the table.

The Panozzo brothers, in all honesty, managed to stay in the group partly because they founded it. Not to trample on a man's grave, but John Panozzo was not a great drummer. His drum style is very ordinary and he doesn't ever do anything that new or innovative. You don't listen to Styx to hear rip roaring drums. Todd Suchermann blows Panozzo out of the water on pure talent. Chuck is also almost non-existent. You don't listen to Styx to hear the bass rifts either. The Panozzo's were barely passable as a rhythm section and certainly didn't add anything. Compare the Styx rhythm section to Rush or even Fleetwood Mac. Quite inferior in every sense of the word.

I am really talking the classic lineup here, so will not address Gowan and Phillips and Sucherman.

So the talent lies with 2 individuals and a 3rd honorable mention in Burtnik. In all honesty, I would love to see a lineup someday of DeYoung, Shaw, and Burtnik in some form (calling it Styx or not) - now that would be special.

[Abitaman]

In all honesty, I would love to see a lineup someday of DeYoung, Shaw, and Burtnik in some form (calling it Styx or not) - now that would be special.

I have often wanted to see a line up with Glen replacing JY-ERIC

[LtVanish]

I would like to see JY out of the group only so i don't have to hear Miss America live again.

[shaka]

Tommy Shaw average? Tommy's slide playing ability alone puts him way above average. Ted Nugent stated that Tommy is one of the best slide players he's ever seen and that's bigtime praise considering some of the legends Ted has jammed with Let's not forgot that he has mastered flatpicking and fingerstyle acoustic guitar. Tommy is a VERY good guitar player and is easily as good as Neil. Again you demonstrate your ignorance.

JP was a very good drummer. He had a unique touch when playing syncopated beats on his hi hat and ride cymbals all the while staying tight on his snare and kick. John did a lot of little things that make him a great drummer. I can't believe that you think Mick Fleetwood is better.

[StyxCollector]

Tommy Shaw average? Tommy's slide playing ability alone puts him way above average. Ted Nugent stated that Tommy is one of the best slide players he's ever seen and that's bigtime praise considering some of the legends Ted has jammed with Let's not forgot that he has mastered flatpicking and fingerstyle acoustic guitar. Tommy is a VERY good guitar player and is easily as good as Neil. Again you demonstrate your ignorance.

As a musician, I've thought about this. Tommy is good, but not close to Mr. Schon. Now, Neil isn't a slide player, but TS himself has admitted to having issues playing in certain keys (good example: CSA). Neil could play in any key at any time, period (good example: having to play different keys on the fly during the Bill Graham Tribute). Tommy is certainly above average, but not great overall. He may be a great slide player, but his regular playing doesn't knock me out. Tommy is an excellent acoustic player ... that there's no argument on.


What Tommy does is perfect in context of Styx, though. That's what's important. It's about what he brings to his band, not necessarily is he better than <insert player here>.

[Zan]

I mean no offense here, sincerely, but...don't you think it's a bit futile to think about how much talent one artist has over another in such great detail? Every artist has weaknesses and strengths. I'm sure artists like David Gilmour & Eric Clapton have trouble playing heavy metal riffs, so what? Does that make them less talented than Igwie Malmstein or Eddie Van Halen? I don't understand this mentality so much.

I understand that Neil Schon can play in any key. But the thing for me with him is that he's very forgettable as an artist. He does nothing for me. Too mechanical. Doesn't make him less talented, just less favorable to me.

[NealIsGod]

I understand that Neil Schon can play in any key. But the thing for me with him is that he's very forgettable as an artist. He does nothing for me. Too mechanical. Doesn't make him less talented, just less favorable to me.

And to think I liked you. I will be taking down my Zan shrine today.

[StyxCollector]

I understand that Neil Schon can play in any key. But the thing for me with him is that he's very forgettable as an artist. He does nothing for me. Too mechanical. Doesn't make him less talented, just less favorable to me.

Have to disagree with you here. Mr. Schon has a very distinctive style that is much more easily picked out than Tommy or JY for that matter. Now, I can tell JY and Tommy apart in terms of Styx songs as to who is soloing because they have very different styles. It's one thing to say Neil does nothing for you. I respect that. But forgettable? Not by a long shot. Some of the stuff he's done such as the end thing on "Who's Crying Now" is VERY recognizable.

[Rockwriter]

Tommy Shaw average? Tommy's slide playing ability alone puts him way above average. Ted Nugent stated that Tommy is one of the best slide players he's ever seen and that's bigtime praise considering some of the legends Ted has jammed with Let's not forgot that he has mastered flatpicking and fingerstyle acoustic guitar. Tommy is a VERY good guitar player and is easily as good as Neil. Again you demonstrate your ignorance.

As a musician, I've thought about this. Tommy is good, but not close to Mr. Schon. Now, Neil isn't a slide player, but TS himself has admitted to having issues playing in certain keys (good example: CSA). Neil could play in any key at any time, period (good example: having to play different keys on the fly during the Bill Graham Tribute). Tommy is certainly above average, but not great overall. He may be a great slide player, but his regular playing doesn't knock me out. Tommy is an excellent acoustic player ... that there's no argument on.


What Tommy does is perfect in context of Styx, though. That's what's important. It's about what he brings to his band, not necessarily is he better than <insert player here>.

I think Tommy Shaw is one of the all-around greatest, most underrated players of that era. Now, players like EVH or Schon have a certain very identifiable signature sound, and they are rightfully lauded for that. Those guys are amazing technicians as well. Tommy is a guy whose versatility trumps them all. He can play some insane hard rock (Half-Penny, Two-Penny), electric slide (Shooz), and of course he truly shines as a melodic player playing in the context of songs, which is one reason why his playing does not call as much attention to itself. But solos like "Best of Times" and "Too Much Time On My Hands" are so well-constructed and fit so perfectly, I defy Van Halen or even Schon to top them in that setting. And Tommy is also such an exceptional acoustic player, as well as dobro, mandolin . . . the guy can probably play the hell out of a banjo for all I know, lol. Yes, he has sometimes had a hard time with the CSA solo in the live jams, but mostly back when he was visibly under the influence as in the Japan Paradise Theatre concert (in which he undeniably blew that solo very badly). Not when he's straight and sober, at least not that I've seen.

It's worth mentioning that Tommy always tames his playing down for records, particularly Styx records. It's interesting to note that the best playing he's ever put on a record is the entire Shaw Blades record. Maybe Don Gehman encouraged him to be more himself. An awful lot of people think that he does his best playing just sitting around, or on demos, but has it in his head that a more restrained approach sells records, and so he changes it for the records.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Zan]

I understand that Neil Schon can play in any key. But the thing for me with him is that he's very forgettable as an artist. He does nothing for me. Too mechanical. Doesn't make him less talented, just less favorable to me.

Have to disagree with you here. Mr. Schon has a very distinctive style that is much more easily picked out than Tommy or JY for that matter. Now, I can tell JY and Tommy apart in terms of Styx songs as to who is soloing because they have very different styles. It's one thing to say Neil does nothing for you. I respect that. But forgettable? Not by a long shot. Some of the stuff he's done such as the end thing on "Who's Crying Now" is VERY recognizable.

Still, not really the point of my post, especially since I specifically said "for ME with him, he's forgettable." Just because you have a good guitar riff or two, doesn't forever make you a deity in my eyes.

And NIG, I KNEW you'd turn up when I posted this! I'd take you any day over Neil. If that bothers you, I'm sorry.

[NealIsGod]

And NIG, I KNEW you'd turn up when I posted this! I'd take you any day over Neil. If that bothers you, I'm sorry.

Damn. Now I have to light all those candles again. Gotta run to the store for a box of matches.

[StyxCollector]

I think Tommy Shaw is one of the all-around greatest, most underrated players of that era. Now, players like EVH or Schon have a certain very identifiable signature sound, and they are rightfully lauded for that. Those guys are amazing technicians as well. Tommy is a guy whose versatility trumps them all. He can play some insane hard rock (Half-Penny, Two-Penny), electric slide (Shooz), and of course he truly shines as a melodic player playing in the context of songs, which is one reason why his playing does not call as much attention to itself. But solos like "Best of Times" and "Too Much Time On My Hands" are so well-constructed and fit so perfectly, I defy Van Halen or even Schon to top them in that setting. And Tommy is also such an exceptional acoustic player, as well as dobro, mandolin . . . the guy can probably play the hell out of a banjo for all I know, lol. Yes, he has sometimes had a hard time with the CSA solo in the live jams, but mostly back when he was visibly under the influence as in the Japan Paradise Theatre concert (in which he undeniably blew that solo very badly). Not when he's straight and sober, at least not that I've seen.

It's worth mentioning that Tommy always tames his playing down for records, particularly Styx records. It's interesting to note that the best playing he's ever put on a record is the entire Shaw Blades record. Maybe Don Gehman encouraged him to be more himself. An awful lot of people think that he does his best playing just sitting around, or on demos, but has it in his head that a more restrained approach sells records, and so he changes it for the records.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

EVH is definitely a one trick pony. Neal? No, but I would agree that he isn't as versatile as Tommy in terms of overall instrumentation and coloring. Neal can do rock, Latin, and blues, but that's where it ends. His attempts at jazz fall short IMHO Even his acoustic playing is more rock. Neal *can* be tasteful, but sometimes puts a few too many notes when he's just shredding live On record he's more restrained. Live I think he tends to forget sometimes that a little can go a long way.

Tommy as you point out tends to restrain himself. Although I disagree on CSA - he has said (forget where) that solo is a pain to play no matter what. I think he just has an issue with the key. Tommy's solos are very, very tasteful and suit the songs.

Tommy for my $ is a better guitar player than JY. JY like EVH is a one trick pony.

[shaka]

This has turned into a great discussion and I appreciate that.

My comments weren't meant to bag on Schon. He's one of my favorite guitar players. I do think Shaw is a much more versatile guitarist and I know he can shred it up from when I saw him in Damn Yankees. I've even seen him do the Van Halen fretboard tapping thing.

My point was that Shaw is kind of a guitar jack of all trades although I think he has mastered a few styles. Schon has mastered rock playing and kind of falls off from there. However, what Neal does well he does extremely well.

My only problem with Neal was pointed out earlier. Sometimes he has a great melodic idea and then kind of wrecks it with a flurry of notes. A good example is the solo in When You Love a Woman. This song is my favorite Journey ballad. However Neal starts his solo out with this beautiful melodic phrase and then trainwrecks with a flurry of notes that just kind of take up space until he can end things with another beautiful melodic phrase. In a way I think the tack he took was kinda cool but in another way he wrecks an otherwise great melodic idea. Neal does get it right on Who's Cryin' Now with the solo at the end. Incidentely, that solo is the first one I ever learned to play.

Just some more fuel for the fire.