OT - Queensryche/Styx Parallels

[Ash]

Ok... I'm at a crossroads.

I love Dennis. I think his getting the axe from Styx was completely unjustifiable.

Why is it then, that I am OK with Geoff Tate getting the shit canned from Queensryche.

Dennis (it has been said) turned Styx into Broadway
Geoff (it has been said) turned Queensryche into a cabaret

Both were accused of being insufferable douchebags to their bandmates.

I *worshipped* Geoff Tate in the early 1990's. Operation Mindcrime is, to this day, my favorite rock album of all time. My lone tattoo is inspired by Operation Mindcrime.

Yet I had grown to regard Geoff as an "out of touch, elitist douche" more concerned with selling wine and cabaret than advancing his art. Many of these accusations were levied at Dennis DeYoung (some of which I don't agree with).

In my head I see the differences as such:

1. Geoff Tate did not write Queensryche's biggest songs (Chris DeGarmo did - who left Queensryche in 1998).
2. Geoff became a chain smoker and it destroyed his once glorious vocal range.
3. Geoff assumed leadership where he haddn't earned it. Mindcrime was a band effort, and tate's mostly solo efforts produced the cataclysmic disasters that became Q2K, Dedicated to Chaos and Mindcrime II. Mindcrime II had moments, but pales compared to the original. Dedicated to Chaos was pure shit.
4. The other guys in QR not named Geoff Tate found a guy who had taken care of his voice and can still sing the songs as they were recorded. So they fired the original and replaced with a copy. Cover Band? I can see the argument - but what do you say when the original guy abused his body to the point of not being able to sing the songs anymore? What choice is left?

I don't know. I'm glad Tate is gone. I'm hoping this lights a fire under the remaining members with the new vocalist to write some killer songs. But time will tell if this is a success or failure.

I'm just puzzled as to how I can justify Tate's firing so easily when I'll defend Dennis to my dying day even though I firmly believe both Styx and Dennis are better off as they are now.

[gr8whitehope]

I know a difference. Styx are good and Queensryche suck.

[Ash]

Thank you for taking my question seriously. Frankly I haddn't listened to either band in 7 or 8+ years. Especially anything outside their prime.

So they both sucked.

[StyxCollector]

Geoff also allegedly pulled a knife on his bandmates. I'd say that's a clear difference. Personalities aside, something clearly toxic was going on in Queensryche. That's way more than creative/artistic differences with regards to a band's musical direction.

[Liam]

Think telling the Rocklahoma crowd "you suck" was the last straw??

[masque]

i think it boils down to the fact that tate's issues were more in the face of the public and easy to see. declining voice.......arrogance with the fans......poor live performances.......pulling a knife on your bandmate....those are really bad things and easy for all of us to see why they dont want to work with him.

with styx we seeing dennis always being funny and nice in interviews. always upholding the styx name....he claims he still wants to be in the band etc.....

there is nothing there that makes us the regular public go "oh yeh, dennis is an asshole and they need him gone". the problems that exist between tommy, dennis and jy are more behind the scenes and likely contain elements that we will never know about....whether real or perceived they are not tangible to us and therefore for somebody like you create a resentment for your perception of how dennis has and is being treated and puts you in the position to feel more comfortable siding with dennis on the styx issue.

tate's antics and general "doucheiness" makes it easier for you to support the remaining members of the band in their case.

[gr8dane]

Ok... I'm at a crossroads.

I love Dennis. I think his getting the axe from Styx was completely unjustifiable.

Why is it then, that I am OK with Geoff Tate getting the shit canned from Queensryche.

Dennis (it has been said) turned Styx into Broadway
Geoff (it has been said) turned Queensryche into a cabaret

Both were accused of being insufferable douchebags to their bandmates.

I *worshipped* Geoff Tate in the early 1990's. Operation Mindcrime is, to this day, my favorite rock album of all time. My lone tattoo is inspired by Operation Mindcrime.

Yet I had grown to regard Geoff as an "out of touch, elitist douche" more concerned with selling wine and cabaret than advancing his art. Many of these accusations were levied at Dennis DeYoung (some of which I don't agree with).

In my head I see the differences as such:

1. Geoff Tate did not write Queensryche's biggest songs (Chris DeGarmo did - who left Queensryche in 1998).
2. Geoff became a chain smoker and it destroyed his once glorious vocal range.
3. Geoff assumed leadership where he haddn't earned it. Mindcrime was a band effort, and tate's mostly solo efforts produced the cataclysmic disasters that became Q2K, Dedicated to Chaos and Mindcrime II. Mindcrime II had moments, but pales compared to the original. Dedicated to Chaos was pure shit.
4. The other guys in QR not named Geoff Tate found a guy who had taken care of his voice and can still sing the songs as they were recorded. So they fired the original and replaced with a copy. Cover Band? I can see the argument - but what do you say when the original guy abused his body to the point of not being able to sing the songs anymore? What choice is left?

I don't know. I'm glad Tate is gone. I'm hoping this lights a fire under the remaining members with the new vocalist to write some killer songs. But time will tell if this is a success or failure.

I'm just puzzled as to how I can justify Tate's firing so easily when I'll defend Dennis to my dying day even though I firmly believe both Styx and Dennis are better off as they are now.

Awwrite Ash,
Guess you are more into Broadway than Cabaret.
Thanks for making a nice valid post about the Geoff and Dennis situ.
I don't really know QR that well,and was never a fan.Did see them warm up for somebody around the 'Silent Lucidity' hit times.
Loved that song,and now thinking about it, may just have to pick that up from i-tunes.

I do remember your tat.It used to be your pic on here with the cranium also.
You said something along the lines of it being a combo Greatful Dead and and QR with lines going up and down and all that.
Anyways.I think your love for Dennis and not so much Tate face is more evident.You like Dennis more because,when he wanted to do his own thing, Broadway disc and solo what have you,the other guys did not accept that,and Dennis with that became more of a douche bag.When they did not accept that all of a sudden Dennis for some reason or other (it has been said) got sick.
Him (it has been said),could not do anything else except write solo stuff at the time.

But as you said ,Dennis wrote more of Styx's hits that Geoff wrote QR's,so maybe that has something to do with it.

Anyways,you had a lot of your facts in your message and my answer maybe a bit rambling because of that.So there...................................................
And yes they are better apart than together.

[gr8dane]

Ok... I'm at a crossroads.

I love Dennis. I think his getting the axe from Styx was completely unjustifiable.

Why is it then, that I am OK with Geoff Tate getting the shit canned from Queensryche.

Dennis (it has been said) turned Styx into Broadway
Geoff (it has been said) turned Queensryche into a cabaret

Both were accused of being insufferable douchebags to their bandmates.

I *worshipped* Geoff Tate in the early 1990's. Operation Mindcrime is, to this day, my favorite rock album of all time. My lone tattoo is inspired by Operation Mindcrime.

Yet I had grown to regard Geoff as an "out of touch, elitist douche" more concerned with selling wine and cabaret than advancing his art. Many of these accusations were levied at Dennis DeYoung (some of which I don't agree with).

In my head I see the differences as such:

1. Geoff Tate did not write Queensryche's biggest songs (Chris DeGarmo did - who left Queensryche in 1998).
2. Geoff became a chain smoker and it destroyed his once glorious vocal range.
3. Geoff assumed leadership where he haddn't earned it. Mindcrime was a band effort, and tate's mostly solo efforts produced the cataclysmic disasters that became Q2K, Dedicated to Chaos and Mindcrime II. Mindcrime II had moments, but pales compared to the original. Dedicated to Chaos was pure shit.
4. The other guys in QR not named Geoff Tate found a guy who had taken care of his voice and can still sing the songs as they were recorded. So they fired the original and replaced with a copy. Cover Band? I can see the argument - but what do you say when the original guy abused his body to the point of not being able to sing the songs anymore? What choice is left?

I don't know. I'm glad Tate is gone. I'm hoping this lights a fire under the remaining members with the new vocalist to write some killer songs. But time will tell if this is a success or failure.

I'm just puzzled as to how I can justify Tate's firing so easily when I'll defend Dennis to my dying day even though I firmly believe both Styx and Dennis are better off as they are now.

Awwrite Ash,
Guess you are more into Broadway than Cabaret.
Thanks for making a nice valid post about the Geoff and Dennis situ.
I don't really know QR that well,and was never a fan.Did see them warm up for somebody around the 'Silent Lucidity' hit times.
Loved that song,and now thinking about it, may just have to pick that up from i-tunes.

I do remember your tat.It used to be your pic on here with the cranium also.
You said something along the lines of it being a combo Greatful Dead and and QR with lines going up and down and all that.
Anyways.I think your love for Dennis and not so much Tate face is more evident.You like Dennis more because,when he wanted to do his own thing, Broadway disc and solo what have you,the other guys did not accept that,and Dennis with that became more of a douche bag.When they did not accept that all of a sudden Dennis for some reason or other (it has been said) got sick.
Him (it has been said),could not do anything else except write solo stuff at the time.

But as you said ,Dennis wrote more of Styx's hits(and it has been said,because they were hits,they were the best songs) and that Geoff did not write QR's,,so maybe that has something to do with it.

Anyways,you had a lot of your facts in your message and my answer maybe a bit rambling because of that.So there...................................................
And yes they are better apart than together.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Anyways.I think your love for Dennis and not so much Tate face is more evident.You like Dennis more because,when he wanted to do his own thing, Broadway disc and solo what have you,the other guys did not accept that,and Dennis with that became more of a douche bag.When they did not accept that all of a sudden Dennis for some reason or other (it has been said) got sick.
Him (it has been said),could not do anything else except write solo stuff at the time.

(BUZZ) Wrong, try again....(and posting it twice still doesn't make your rewriting of Styx history correct either)

[Ash]

Nice try. But my tattoo is the Mindcrime Skull and Cross-T's with a backdrop of a tattered American Flag. I should know because I designed it along with the Tattoo artist who placed it on my arm.

There was a time I loved Queensryche more than Styx. Hell, I still tear up when I listen to Eyes of a Stranger off Mindcrime. An incredibly powerful song and very meaningful to me.

I think Geoff choosing to abuse his voice and lose his range was the start. To this day I can't imagine why a singer would do something so detrimental to their instrument. By Q2K he had definitely lost his high end mostly but managed to pull it back for Mindcrime II and AMerican Soldier ... two pretty solid records. But then the wheels came off. Dedicated to Chaos was pure disaster... and their live shows were so de-tuned you didn't recognize the songs half the time. Queensryche still is the best live show I saw in the Mindcrime I/II tour at the Ryman in Nashville. They sounded amazing... and I didn't even care that they piped in artificial backging vocals for "Another Rainy Night". It still sounded killer.

Geoff still has a "good" voice, but he can't hit those early songs anymore... and those are the songs that I and many others grew up on. Plus the stuff they put out after about 1998 really turned into weak sauce. Dedicated to Chaos was terrible.

So the only "difference" creatively between Dennis and Tate's situation was that Dennis was still producing hit songs while Tate haddn't had decent song in almost 20 years. (there were some bright spots... Man Down being one. Breakdown Room being another.) but the wheels came off the wagon after Promised Land (an album for all it's darkness I really, really enjoyed).

And then there is the sticky part about having a "Band agreement" which apparently Tate may not have had. Lots of little nuance differences. but I stand by Dennis but not Tate. And in a lot of ways Tate's Mindcrime Music helped shape some of my views on the world. I was in college when Mindcrime was in my tape deck... and I was very impressionable.

Is it too much to ask our artist friends to take care of themselves so they can keep giving us quality work representative of their god given skills for decades to come?

[gr8dane]

Anyways.I think your love for Dennis and not so much Tate face is more evident.You like Dennis more because,when he wanted to do his own thing, Broadway disc and solo what have you,the other guys did not accept that,and Dennis with that became more of a douche bag.When they did not accept that all of a sudden Dennis for some reason or other (it has been said) got sick.
Him (it has been said),could not do anything else except write solo stuff at the time.

(BUZZ) Wrong, try again....(and posting it twice still doesn't make your rewriting of Styx history correct either)

Zzzzzz,then let us have your take .

I knew you wouldn't get it the first time.
Thought you might get it the second.

[gr8dane]

Nice try. But my tattoo is the Mindcrime Skull and Cross-T's with a backdrop of a tattered American Flag. I should know because I designed it along with the Tattoo artist who placed it on my arm.

There was a time I loved Queensryche more than Styx. Hell, I still tear up when I listen to Eyes of a Stranger off Mindcrime. An incredibly powerful song and very meaningful to me.

I think Geoff choosing to abuse his voice and lose his range was the start. To this day I can't imagine why a singer would do something so detrimental to their instrument. By Q2K he had definitely lost his high end mostly but managed to pull it back for Mindcrime II and AMerican Soldier ... two pretty solid records. But then the wheels came off. Dedicated to Chaos was pure disaster... and their live shows were so de-tuned you didn't recognize the songs half the time. Queensryche still is the best live show I saw in the Mindcrime I/II tour at the Ryman in Nashville. They sounded amazing... and I didn't even care that they piped in artificial backging vocals for "Another Rainy Night". It still sounded killer.

Geoff still has a "good" voice, but he can't hit those early songs anymore... and those are the songs that I and many others grew up on. Plus the stuff they put out after about 1998 really turned into weak sauce. Dedicated to Chaos was terrible.

So the only "difference" creatively between Dennis and Tate's situation was that Dennis was still producing hit songs while Tate haddn't had decent song in almost 20 years. (there were some bright spots... Man Down being one. Breakdown Room being another.) but the wheels came off the wagon after Promised Land (an album for all it's darkness I really, really enjoyed).

And then there is the sticky part about having a "Band agreement" which apparently Tate may not have had. Lots of little nuance differences. but I stand by Dennis but not Tate. And in a lot of ways Tate's Mindcrime Music helped shape some of my views on the world. I was in college when Mindcrime was in my tape deck... and I was very impressionable.

Is it too much to ask our artist friends to take care of themselves so they can keep giving us quality work representative of their god given skills for decades to come?

Yes of course you know your own tat .I go from memory of your pic from years ago.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Anyways.I think your love for Dennis and not so much Tate face is more evident.You like Dennis more because,when he wanted to do his own thing, Broadway disc and solo what have you,the other guys did not accept that,and Dennis with that became more of a douche bag.When they did not accept that all of a sudden Dennis for some reason or other (it has been said) got sick.
Him (it has been said),could not do anything else except write solo stuff at the time.

(BUZZ) Wrong, try again....(and posting it twice still doesn't make your rewriting of Styx history correct either)

Zzzzzz,then let us have your take .

I knew you wouldn't get it the first time.
Thought you might get it the second.

I got it the first time, the second time is redundant

[yogi]

Sometimes it is a shame when things change.

LOVED the Empire Album. One of my all time favorites!

[stevebuk1]

Sometimes it is a shame when things change.

LOVED the Empire Album. One of my all time favorites!

i agree.empire is a classic !!!!!
sad its ended this way
met queensryche a few years ago.thought how well they all got on.geoff was great.introduced me to pamela moore !!!
queensryche were different from most bands...their own unique style.
saw them last year supporting judas priest.even on a shorter set........they were brilliant
.

[mrsromek]

Interesting posts, to say the least. Tell me a singer...other that Geddy Lee...that can still hit the notes they sang 20+ years ago. Paul Rodgers? Yes. Who else? It's sad to say, but I could probably think of 20 that cannot. Vince Neil of the Crue immediately comes to mind. You know what's funny, though? Most fans go and see Motley and could care less. It's about the party, and about reminiscing when they were 13 and were blasting Theatre of Pain out of the boomboxes. I see on Twitter all day fans tweeting about how great Styx was the other night, etc, and guess what? Do they all even realize Dennis is not the singer of Styx anymore?

I think what all of the band 'crap' as I refer to it as boils down to is $. When all of these bands started out, they were hungry to just play gigs. Then the gigs got bigger and they got signed. Then came radio, limos, women, huge checks, etc. They started to NOT LIKE one another...lots of people in their ears telling them how great they are. So many bands are in that trap, or fell into it. You think Diamond Dave and EVH made up because they love one another? Hell no. It's about $.

I could tolerate 2-3 people I cannot stand for 2 hours a night on a stage in front of even a few hundred people (when it's the only time we see each other all day). And that's on the small end...thousands in the crowd screaming, even better. We all could.

I am never in favor of bands being broken up, or having 2 versions, especially when the members are still alive (case in point-Styx, etc). And, I've seen the version of Styx since Dennis was ousted, and honestly, I'd rather go see him solo (which I did a few years ago). He sang the songs I enjoyed most-call them ballads, whatever. A great song is a great song.

[masque]

Interesting posts, to say the least. Tell me a singer...other that Geddy Lee...that can still hit the notes they sang 20+ years ago. Paul Rodgers? Yes. Who else? It's sad to say, but I could probably think of 20 that cannot. Vince Neil of the Crue immediately comes to mind. You know what's funny, though? Most fans go and see Motley and could care less. It's about the party, and about reminiscing when they were 13 and were blasting Theatre of Pain out of the boomboxes. I see on Twitter all day fans tweeting about how great Styx was the other night, etc, and guess what? Do they all even realize Dennis is not the singer of Styx anymore?

I think what all of the band 'crap' as I refer to it as boils down to is $. When all of these bands started out, they were hungry to just play gigs. Then the gigs got bigger and they got signed. Then came radio, limos, women, huge checks, etc. They started to NOT LIKE one another...lots of people in their ears telling them how great they are. So many bands are in that trap, or fell into it. You think Diamond Dave and EVH made up because they love one another? Hell no. It's about $.

I could tolerate 2-3 people I cannot stand for 2 hours a night on a stage in front of even a few hundred people (when it's the only time we see each other all day). And that's on the small end...thousands in the crowd screaming, even better. We all could.

I am never in favor of bands being broken up, or having 2 versions, especially when the members are still alive (case in point-Styx, etc). And, I've seen the version of Styx since Dennis was ousted, and honestly, I'd rather go see him solo (which I did a few years ago). He sang the songs I enjoyed most-call them ballads, whatever. A great song is a great song.

first of all i'm an enormous fan of RUSH and geddy cannot come close to hitting the notes he did back in early days....in fact there are songs he wont play because he knows he cant sing them anymore.....so ged isnt a good example......nobody ever mentions it but tommy shaw is singing as good or better than he ever did....he has not lost any of his voice that I can tell.

other than that i pretty much agree with your post that most of these bands get back together or stay together because of the money at the end of the day.

[Abitaman]

From Ultimate Classic Rock;

Last week Queensryche lead singer Geoff Tate found out he was fired when lawyers for the remaining members sent his lawyer a long legal document. After 30 years together, their relationship ended unceremoniously, but it sounds like the legal battle has just begun.

Tate tells Rolling Stone that he doesn’t think Scott Rockenfield, Michael Wilton, Parker Lundgren and bassist Eddie Jackson have a legal right to fire him. “We’re in a lawsuit right now and it’s probably gonna get ugly,” he says in a lengthy interview that attempts to clear up rumors from the past four months. “I filed a claim a couple of days ago. So it’s all going to the legal system now to sort out who is what, and who owns what, and that stuff.”

Tate says there were no creative differences in the band, as Rockenfield claimed, because he was the sole creative force since Chris DeGarmo left in 1998. The drama began in February with an argument about who should control merchandizing, and escalated to the incident in Brazil in which Tate attacked his bandmates.

“They said that they weren’t planning on replacing me, but they had just fired our manager, our office assistant and one of our guitar techs, who all happened to be my family members,” Tate recalls.

“It seemed like a personal vendetta against me. Anyway, the meeting was short and we went to do the show. I’m getting ready by my station, ready to go on stage, and Scott [Rockenfield] looks at me and he smirks and says, ‘We just fired your whole family, and you’re next.’ I just lost it. I tried to punch him. I don’t think I landed a punch before somebody grabbed me and hauled me to the side. On my way, I managed to shove [Michael] Wilton, and really, that was it. I cooled down and we did the show, and everything went fine.”

There was no knife, he says. “You can’t really get knives into foreign countries.”

The 53-year-old singer says the move was strictly a business move for the rest of the band, although he didn’t understand what they hoped to accomplish by firing the lead singer of his band. “How are they gonna survive economically? And then, by that action, you’re completely alienating the promoters, who you work with closely to book shows for you. So now the promoter is left holding the bag, and that doesn’t make the promoter want to work with you again.”

Tate expect things to play out slowly in court, and doesn’t think Queensryche should play scheduled shows with new vocalist Todd la Torre. He added that he has no interest in forming his own version of Queensryche to compete with his old bandmates, although after things settle down he may be up for reforming the group if he’s declared the legal owner of the name and catalog.

[mrsromek]

You don't think Ged can sing the songs from the 90's? I'm not talking about Temples of...type stuff from the mid 70's. Maybe my ear as a fan is bad from all the shows over the years!?!?!

[Zan]

There is no major difference. You can pick nits all day, but the bottom line is that your perception of the truth will always trump the actual truth. That's why there are sides of the fence and not one all-encompassing truth. Obi-Wan once said "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." That is exactly what's happening here. Your perception of the damage Geoff Tate caused is different from the perception of the damage DeYoung caused (or didn't cause, if you choose to word it that way).

It also depends on whether "hits" are what made you love the band or not. For me, my favorites were mostly in the album cuts. I would be ok never hearing "CSA" again. or "Babe." Or "Blue Collar Man." But Just get Through This Night, Why me, Castle walls, Love in the Midnight, Love is the Ritual, Midnight Ride...? That would suck.

[DracIsBack]

nobody ever mentions it but tommy shaw is singing as good or better than he ever did....he has not lost any of his voice that I can tell.

I haven't seen him in a couple of years, but Dennis DeYoung himself has a voice that holds up extremely well given his age and the demands of the songs. Same with Roger Hodgson from Supertramp.

I also don't think it's an all-or-nothing thing. There are some singers who can't quite reach their heydey peak but still sound pretty damn good. Others - well - not so much.

[Ash]

There is no major difference. You can pick nits all day, but the bottom line is that your perception of the truth will always trump the actual truth. That's why there are sides of the fence and not one all-encompassing truth. Obi-Wan once said "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." That is exactly what's happening here. Your perception of the damage Geoff Tate caused is different from the perception of the damage DeYoung caused (or didn't cause, if you choose to word it that way).

It also depends on whether "hits" are what made you love the band or not. For me, my favorites were mostly in the album cuts. I would be ok never hearing "CSA" again. or "Babe." Or "Blue Collar Man." But Just get Through This Night, Why me, Castle walls, Love in the Midnight, Love is the Ritual, Midnight Ride...? That would suck.

I see definitely what you're saying. I still have the picture I had taken with GT at a Queensryche concert in Memphis... I really worshipped the guy. Mindcrime made an amazing impact on me in a number of ways - and that whole concept was pretty much his. Hits never made me love either band really. I was indoctrinated into the cult of Styx by my elder sister when she introduced me to Renegade. Queensryche was more of an accidental revelation when I bought a cassette of Operation Mindcrime along with about 20 others the day before having surgery and being laid up for 6 weeks. I about wore that cassette out in 6 weeks. I even tried to grow my hair to look like GT's, but it's WAY too thick (and red).

I guess it's an intangible. Maybe I'd feel differently if he'd taken care of himself and had not become so much self-righteous to the fans (I remember a show in Nashville I was at where he criticized the crowd from the stage and that was a bit of a turn-off).

Here's hoping they prosper the way Styx and DDY did. Despite the butt-hurt on all sides, it seems to be working out the best for everyone.