Happy B-day Pieces Of Eight

[Boomchild]

toph you and boomchild are both high......i said that first time "was very good sap"....to me it's not a dennis vs. tommy thing. but to my ears I think all three songs are not what I prefer to hear.

forgetting my preferences I would rank them as #1 first time, #2 babe and #3 she cares as far "how good of a song is this?" category......first time and babe are better songs, but they contain less of what turns me on as a listener so as a result I find myself actually more able to listen to she cares and I actually prefer to hear it more than the others.

it's not a "i hate dennis" thing or "i got to drink tommy's bathwather" think that you guys turn every damn discussion into.

it's just a common sense thing to be able to point out that she cares is, at it's core, a different kind of song than the other two.....which you prefer is your choice. which i prefer is mine.

obviously, the majority of folks that come onto this board like styx or they wouldnt be here.....and ironically enough, if you like or liked styx then there was a pretty decent chance that you had to like dennis and tommy and somewhat even jy since they all sung and all wrote to varying degrees during their heyday. even though we all liked "styx" we liked different things about them.

for me, I would 10 million times rather hear great white hope than babe, first time, she cares or tons of other styx songs....many folks would disagree.....i think great white hope, put me on and miss america are all better than babe and first time.....because that's the type of music i prefer......do i think jy is a better singer than dennis? of course not....is he a better overall writer? of course not......but i will also tell you that I ten thousand times prefer the side of dennis that gave me castle walls, grand illusion, come sail away, born for adventure, lonely people and parts of rockin the paradise/borrowed time/mademoiselle/snowblind and lights than I do the part of dennis that game me babe, first time and dont let it end.

did styx have to rock out for me to like them? nope, I love crystal ball (although the chorus is pure rock), best of times, come sail away (although the chorus is pure rock), boat on the river, lights etc.... etc.... etc.....but the part of them i prefer the most was the more rock and prog sides of the band. i also prefer guitars over keyboards.....so because of those things it cause me leanings to sway that way. that's it. peace out.

Mmm... Sorry but I am not high at all. My viewpoint is not coming from whether I or someone else likes She Cares. Nor is it about Dennis vs. Tommy. It's about someone trying to gloss over that She Cares is a ballad, soft pop song with sappy lyrics. It would have been right at home on a Barry Manilow album. It glaringly goes against what Tommy in his own words said that this is not what HE wanted Styx to become. So much so that he pitched a hissy fit and threatened to quit the band. " I was full of all these ROCK songs" and out of that pops She Cares? Give me a fuckin' break. Pure BS at it's finest.

[Toph]

toph you and boomchild are both high......i said that first time "was very good sap"....to me it's not a dennis vs. tommy thing. but to my ears I think all three songs are not what I prefer to hear.

forgetting my preferences I would rank them as #1 first time, #2 babe and #3 she cares as far "how good of a song is this?" category......first time and babe are better songs, but they contain less of what turns me on as a listener so as a result I find myself actually more able to listen to she cares and I actually prefer to hear it more than the others.

it's not a "i hate dennis" thing or "i got to drink tommy's bathwather" think that you guys turn every damn discussion into.

it's just a common sense thing to be able to point out that she cares is, at it's core, a different kind of song than the other two.....which you prefer is your choice. which i prefer is mine.

obviously, the majority of folks that come onto this board like styx or they wouldnt be here.....and ironically enough, if you like or liked styx then there was a pretty decent chance that you had to like dennis and tommy and somewhat even jy since they all sung and all wrote to varying degrees during their heyday. even though we all liked "styx" we liked different things about them.

for me, I would 10 million times rather hear great white hope than babe, first time, she cares or tons of other styx songs....many folks would disagree.....i think great white hope, put me on and miss america are all better than babe and first time.....because that's the type of music i prefer......do i think jy is a better singer than dennis? of course not....is he a better overall writer? of course not......but i will also tell you that I ten thousand times prefer the side of dennis that gave me castle walls, grand illusion, come sail away, born for adventure, lonely people and parts of rockin the paradise/borrowed time/mademoiselle/snowblind and lights than I do the part of dennis that game me babe, first time and dont let it end.

did styx have to rock out for me to like them? nope, I love crystal ball (although the chorus is pure rock), best of times, come sail away (although the chorus is pure rock), boat on the river, lights etc.... etc.... etc.....but the part of them i prefer the most was the more rock and prog sides of the band. i also prefer guitars over keyboards.....so because of those things it cause me leanings to sway that way. that's it. peace out.

Mmm... Sorry but I am not high at all. My viewpoint is not coming from whether I or someone else likes She Cares. Nor is it about Dennis vs. Tommy. It's about someone trying to gloss over that She Cares is a ballad, soft pop song with sappy lyrics. It would have been right at home on a Barry Manilow album. It glaringly goes against what Tommy in his own words said that this is not what HE wanted Styx to become. So much so that he pitched a hissy fit and threatened to quit the band. " I was full of all these ROCK songs" and out of that pops She Cares? Give me a fuckin' break. Pure BS at it's finest.

Come on boom, as yogi pointed out, he was able to rock out on that first solo album with lonely school and little girl world. And then the second one?!? Whew, Count on You, bad times, and true confessions were yet another step up in achieving thrash metal utopia.

In all seriousness, it's the hypocrisy of TS that drives me nuts. He plays this role of rock god and I would argue his songs are less rock oriented than Dennis's. don't getme wrong I like his acoustic stuff - but I just call bs on this whole revisionist history.

[Boomchild]

Come on boom, as yogi pointed out, he was able to rock out on that first solo album with lonely school and little girl world. And then the second one?!? Whew, Count on You, bad times, and true confessions were yet another step up in achieving thrash metal utopia.

In all seriousness, it's the hypocrisy of TS that drives me nuts. He plays this role of rock god and I would argue his songs are less rock oriented than Dennis's. don't getme wrong I like his acoustic stuff - but I just call bs on this whole revisionist history.

This just is more evidence to support what is reality verses the revision of history through Tommy Shaw. It's has nothing to do with whether one likes the material or not. You can't dismiss it away because it's staring right back at you. After all this was the major reason that TS said drove him to leave the band. I never bought that reasoning from him. I feel it was more of a combination of wanting to be in control, ego and of course the drugs. Add to that people whispering in your ear "Hey, you don't need those guys, you can do just as good or better on your own".

[masque]

is she cares the same kind of song as renegade? of course not.....but if you cant see or "feel" the difference in tonality and beat in she cares vs. first time then I dont know what else to say.

but here is my thing.....why does anybody expect that these guys would have ever stayed together much longer than what they did? the band was a business nearly from day one....JY wasnt some longtime grade school friend of DDY and the panozzo's....he was hired to play in the band.

tommy wasnt friends with the guys he was a hurried last second replacement they found to be able to begin a tour.....he was hired because he could sing......the fact he could write, play well and had good stage presence was gravy on the mashed potatoes.

they were business partners.....and anybody that has ever been a part of a business understands how difficult it can be to stay together and not be at odds with each other even if you are family....now imagine trying to hold it together while not really being close to that person or having a history with them??? nearly impossible in my opinion.

and just like marital divorces, many things are said in the heat of battle or in the aftermath that dont make much sense based on looking at things from the outside.....there is a great deal of "revisionist history" written by all parties in a nasty separation of a marriage or a business and styx is no different.

[yogi]

then riddle me this....... all most business care about is the bottom line correct? The bottom line was that Babe was VERY VERY good for business. After Babe, First Time would have probably been even better for business. So why did Tommy reject it, and then 1 album later bring She Cares to the Paradise Theatre table???????

Even better yet the question remains if all Tommy wanted to do was rock and now as a solo artist he can, how on earth does he come up with Lonely School and Little Girl World. You would think he would have written an album full of CVome In and Explain type of tunes.??????

[Toph]

Fact of the matter is this - of the 20 songs on the two TS solo albums following Kilroy, there was exactly 1, yes one song, "Come In And Explain", that was "heavy" or hard rock. Sorry, but I don't consider "Fading Away" hard rock.

And while its not an original - DDY's "Fire" has a harder edge than CIAE (Thank you, Mr. Hendrix).

I would argue too that "Black Wall" is harder edged than anything on TS's first two solo LPs. It got better with AMBITION, but the first two were not examples of "having all this rock built up inside of me."

[masque]

then riddle me this....... all most business care about is the bottom line correct? The bottom line was that Babe was VERY VERY good for business. After Babe, First Time would have probably been even better for business. So why did Tommy reject it, and then 1 album later bring She Cares to the Paradise Theatre table???????

Even better yet the question remains if all Tommy wanted to do was rock and now as a solo artist he can, how on earth does he come up with Lonely School and Little Girl World. You would think he would have written an album full of CVome In and Explain type of tunes.??????

the first part is easy to answer.......styx as a business after grand illusion and POE albums were doing huge business financially. selling out arenas and having hits on the radio....the money was flowing in.....so as tommy has publicly said before to follow babe with first time would have forever changed the image of the band from being the band that gave you lady, come sail away, renegade and blue collar man (more rock oriented stuff) to a band that gave you babe and first time (which would have clearly landed them on soft rock planet). and to him they didnt need or have to do that to be successful financially. I truly understand that and i dont know who anybody wouldnt.

why did he bring she cares to PT? because, he was on drugs, had writer's block and was also being asked to write songs that centered around a theme that backed him in a corner and contributed to him coming up dry....styx as a business needed tommy songs on the album and this was likely one of the few he had available.....keep in mind that they were nearly done with PT when he finally stumbled into writing TMTOMH......imagine how weak his contributions to that album woudl have been without that song. obviously, he wasnt in a very creative spot at that time.

as for the second part, i think people take the statement of him having all these rock songs in him that needed to come out a little too literal.....i do think that tunes like girls with guns and outside in the rain are "rock" songs.....and are certainly rock songs in comparison to babe and first time. lonely school and little girl world are weak sappy babe and first time like songs....i dont like them and they were likely added to the album to complete and were chosen by the producer to include as potential ballad hits.....but tommy still wrote them.....im not sure if you guys are musicians or not, i am and when writing it's a bizarre thing.....i MUCH prefer rock music and more uptempo things.....but from time to time very slow and ballad oriented things come out of me that I enjoy working on at the time.....when completed I can actually be proud of it or even enjoy it because mostly it is my creation....but honestly, I probably wouldnt like it if I heard it done by someone else.....it's just the way it goes sometimes.

but it does make his previous statements come across hypocritical at times. but none of that stuff makes me like one song better than another.....my ears like what they like......

[masque]

Fact of the matter is this - of the 20 songs on the two TS solo albums following Kilroy, there was exactly 1, yes one song, "Come In And Explain", that was "heavy" or hard rock. Sorry, but I don't consider "Fading Away" hard rock.

And while its not an original - DDY's "Fire" has a harder edge than CIAE (Thank you, Mr. Hendrix).

I would argue too that "Black Wall" is harder edged than anything on TS's first two solo LPs. It got better with AMBITION, but the first two were not examples of "having all this rock built up inside of me."

context toph....context.......tommy's songs for the most part (with obvious exceptions) were rock songs in comparison to babe and first time.

girls with guns
come in and explain
outside in the rain
jealousy
what if
see me now
nature of the beast

would all have been songs on those first two albums that I would consider to be "rock" song in comparison to what tommy was complaining about and what he was afraid that styx was becoming.

[Boomchild]

Boy, I sure would love to have what ever it is that some people seem to be smokin' while discussing this thread.

[masque]

Boy, I sure would love to have what ever it is that some people seem to be smokin' while discussing this thread.

not smoking anything.....i just have a different opinion than you. and unlike many folks on here that want stir up shit between the DDY and Tommy camps.....I dont have a dog in the fight....I prefer Tommy's music over DDY's.

BUT

I love DDY and his music and to me STYX was and would be at their peak if he and Tommy were together.....that's what I prefer. Me liking Tommy's tunes over DDY's is just a personal preference and is one of the reasons the band sold millions of albums.....if one of the writers material had been utter crap then they likely would not have been nearly as successful. so some folks prefer DDY and some folks prefer Tommy like me.....and some folks think babe and first time are classics and I dont.....and some folks think she cares is a complete throw away tune and I dont.....that's why music is so subjective.

[Boomchild]

Boy, I sure would love to have what ever it is that some people seem to be smokin' while discussing this thread.

not smoking anything.....i just have a different opinion than you. and unlike many folks on here that want stir up shit between the DDY and Tommy camps.....I dont have a dog in the fight....I prefer Tommy's music over DDY's.

BUT

I love DDY and his music and to me STYX was and would be at their peak if he and Tommy were together.....that's what I prefer. Me liking Tommy's tunes over DDY's is just a personal preference and is one of the reasons the band sold millions of albums.....if one of the writers material had been utter crap then they likely would not have been nearly as successful. so some folks prefer DDY and some folks prefer Tommy like me.....and some folks think babe and first time are classics and I dont.....and some folks think she cares is a complete throw away tune and I dont.....that's why music is so subjective.

Well my points had nothing to do with what my personal preference is between DDY's or TS' material. Actually I like both of their music equally. It had nothing to do with what I think or Dennis thought was going to be a more successful musical direction for Styx. I was purely pointing out the inconsistencies in Tommy's statements verses his actions. Personally, I think Dennis was the least rigged went it came to what styles of music Styx should be doing. I don't think he was planning to turn the band into a pop or soft rock band. I think he understood it was the diversity and the influence it had on each them, is what made them successful. That it had them reaching a wider audience then other acts at the time. He was the one that didn't want constraints put on what kind of music could be written. As Dennis put it in an interview, though unspoken, over time there were roles that each of them took on. One would provide a straight forward rock material, one would provide that harder edge material and he would provide the more ballad type material. So it seems to me that they each were contributing what came naturally to them and nothing was constrained or forced.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Boy, I sure would love to have what ever it is that some people seem to be smokin' while discussing this thread.

not smoking anything.....i just have a different opinion than you. and unlike many folks on here that want stir up shit between the DDY and Tommy camps.....I dont have a dog in the fight....I prefer Tommy's music over DDY's.

BUT

I love DDY and his music and to me STYX was and would be at their peak if he and Tommy were together.....that's what I prefer. Me liking Tommy's tunes over DDY's is just a personal preference and is one of the reasons the band sold millions of albums.....if one of the writers material had been utter crap then they likely would not have been nearly as successful. so some folks prefer DDY and some folks prefer Tommy like me.....and some folks think babe and first time are classics and I dont.....and some folks think she cares is a complete throw away tune and I dont.....that's why music is so subjective.

Well my points had nothing to do with what my personal preference is between DDY's or TS' material. Actually I like both of their music equally. It had nothing to do with what I think or Dennis thought was going to be a more successful musical direction for Styx. I was purely pointing out the inconsistencies in Tommy's statements verses his actions. Personally, I think Dennis was the least rigged went it came to what styles of music Styx should be doing. I don't think he was planning to turn the band into a pop or soft rock band. I think he understood it was the diversity and the influence it had on each them, is what made them successful. That it had them reaching a wider audience then other acts at the time. He was the one that didn't want constraints put on what kind of music could be written. As Dennis put it in an interview, though unspoken, over time there were roles that each of them took on. One would provide a straight forward rock material, one would provide that harder edge material and he would provide the more ballad type material. So it seems to me that they each were contributing what came naturally to them and nothing was constrained or forced.

Even the Hard Rock and Hair Bands of the 80's had to throw an occasional power ballad or soft-rock song in there....so I really don't see what the big deal is

[Cassie May]

One thing I have never understood in regard to Dennis and his saying that he did not want to put constraints on the type of music that was written. That may have been his intention, or his take on things, but wasn't he putting constraints on Tommy and JY when they had to write music to suit Dennis' concepts? Just seems a bit contradictory, to me.

[Toph]

One thing I have never understood in regard to Dennis and his saying that he did not want to put constraints on the type of music that was written. That may have been his intention, or his take on things, but wasn't he putting constraints on Tommy and JY when they had to write music to suit Dennis' concepts? Just seems a bit contradictory, to me.

Didn't seem to bother them for GI and Po8, did it? In fact of the 5 biggest A&M, the one that gets beat up the most is Cornerstone, the one that is NOT a concept album. So I'm not buying the argument that they were so constrained by the concept. That sounds like another Tommy Shaw load of crock.

[Cassie May]

One thing I have never understood in regard to Dennis and his saying that he did not want to put constraints on the type of music that was written. That may have been his intention, or his take on things, but wasn't he putting constraints on Tommy and JY when they had to write music to suit Dennis' concepts? Just seems a bit contradictory, to me.

Didn't seem to bother them for GI and Po8, did it? In fact of the 5 biggest A&M, the one that gets beat up the most is Cornerstone, the one that is NOT a concept album. So I'm not buying the argument that they were so constrained by the concept. That sounds like another Tommy Shaw load of crock.

Ah, but the difference is they were all united and behind the concepts for GI and Po8. For KWH, they were not. That one was all Dennis. And frankly, KWH is the album that gets beat up on the most. Just go to any site that rates and reviews albums. And that is not a load of crock. But, no matter what I write, you will always disagree. It is what it is.

[Boomchild]

One thing I have never understood in regard to Dennis and his saying that he did not want to put constraints on the type of music that was written. That may have been his intention, or his take on things, but wasn't he putting constraints on Tommy and JY when they had to write music to suit Dennis' concepts? Just seems a bit contradictory, to me.

Didn't seem to bother them for GI and Po8, did it? In fact of the 5 biggest A&M, the one that gets beat up the most is Cornerstone, the one that is NOT a concept album. So I'm not buying the argument that they were so constrained by the concept. That sounds like another Tommy Shaw load of crock.

Ah, but the difference is they were all united and behind the concepts for GI and Po8. For KWH, they were not. That one was all Dennis. And frankly, KWH is the album that gets beat up on the most. Just go to any site that rates and reviews albums. And that is not a load of crock. But, no matter what I write, you will always disagree. It is what it is.

First of all, the way the band was structured they all had to agree on what the band was doing and had equal power to shoot things down. So if they really, really did not want to do something then they had the ability to stop it. As a whole, I don't think that Dennis' comments contradict things. As to KWH, Dennis has said that he wishes he hadn't drug the band into the project. If Dennis' stance was the same when speaking about KWH then I would say you have something there. What I think we all need to keep in mind here is that none of us here were directly involved and our opinions are based on what has been said in public. Obviously, there is more to it that has not been exposed to the public. So the "pendulum" so to speak could pivot either way. That said, originally my comments were about TS' comments as opposed what he actually did and that is all "in the public eye".

[Toph]

One thing I have never understood in regard to Dennis and his saying that he did not want to put constraints on the type of music that was written. That may have been his intention, or his take on things, but wasn't he putting constraints on Tommy and JY when they had to write music to suit Dennis' concepts? Just seems a bit contradictory, to me.

Didn't seem to bother them for GI and Po8, did it? In fact of the 5 biggest A&M, the one that gets beat up the most is Cornerstone, the one that is NOT a concept album. So I'm not buying the argument that they were so constrained by the concept. That sounds like another Tommy Shaw load of crock.

Ah, but the difference is they were all united and behind the concepts for GI and Po8. For KWH, they were not. That one was all Dennis. And frankly, KWH is the album that gets beat up on the most. Just go to any site that rates and reviews albums. And that is not a load of crock. But, no matter what I write, you will always disagree. It is what it is.

What about Paradise Theater? They were drug into that one? That #1 album? You're all over the board on your argument. Either he was drug into it or he wasn't. The original claim was that She Cares was the only thing Tommy could come up with because he couldn't fit his songs into these concepts. But yet, he was able to for GI and Po8. Either he was confined by the concepts or he wasn't. You can't have it both ways. I know its hard to try and defend a habitual liar, Cassie, but welcome to the world of Tommy Shaw where your public statements often defy logic and accuracy and the real truth....

[Cassie May]

What about Paradise Theater? They were drug into that one? That #1 album? You're all over the board on your argument. Either he was drug into it or he wasn't. The original claim was that She Cares was the only thing Tommy could come up with because he couldn't fit his songs into these concepts. But yet, he was able to for GI and Po8. Either he was confined by the concepts or he wasn't. You can't have it both ways. I know its hard to try and defend a habitual liar, Cassie, but welcome to the world of Tommy Shaw where your public statements often defy logic and accuracy and the real truth....

I didn't mention PT because I can't recall ever reading anything about how the members of the band felt about the concept overall (other than the usual publicity comments made when the album was released),except for TS saying he didn't have a rock song for the album and came up with Too Much Time on his way to rehearsal. And, as Boomchild said, none of us where there for any of this and our opinions are formed by what has been said and done publicly. Which is the truth, and very eloquently stated. So, Toph, we will continue to see things differently, as we have different opinions and perspectives, and let's just leave it at that.

I don't know (maybe some of you do?) when Dennis made his comments about stifling creativity--if they were before KWH, then I would agree with him. If they were made after, then they are contradictory. That was all I was initially wondering about, anyway. Don't jump all over someone for having a question. Sheesh.

[Boomchild]

I don't know (maybe some of you do?) when Dennis made his comments about stifling creativity--if they were before KWH, then I would agree with him. If they were made after, then they are contradictory. That was all I was initially wondering about, anyway. Don't jump all over someone for having a question. Sheesh.

When Dennis talked about constraints being put on what types\styles of music could be written he was referring directly to the meeting they had during the time of Cornerstone. This was when things had come to head about First Time being used for a single and ultimately lead to the short ousting DDY. So he was referring to a time prior to KWH. Speaking of KWH, I'm sure DDY pushed harder then before on that concept, to which he himself has admitted was not the right thing to do. Also, I think you have to keep in mind that due to the success of ideas DDY brought forth prior to KWH the others seemed to be willing to take the risk. When it doesn't turn out how you expected it to it's always easy to point the finger at the person that came up with the idea even though there can be other aspects of the situation that caused it not to meet their expectations.

[Cassie May]

I don't know (maybe some of you do?) when Dennis made his comments about stifling creativity--if they were before KWH, then I would agree with him. If they were made after, then they are contradictory. That was all I was initially wondering about, anyway. Don't jump all over someone for having a question. Sheesh.

When Dennis talked about constraints being put on what types\styles of music could be written he was referring directly to the meeting they had during the time of Cornerstone. This was when things had come to head about First Time being used for a single and ultimately lead to the short ousting DDY. So he was referring to a time prior to KWH. Speaking of KWH, I'm sure DDY pushed harder then before on that concept, to which he himself has admitted was not the right thing to do. Also, I think you have to keep in mind that due to the success of ideas DDY brought forth prior to KWH the others seemed to be willing to take the risk. When it doesn't turn out how you expected it to it's always easy to point the finger at the person that came up with the idea even though there can be other aspects of the situation that caused it not to meet their expectations.

Thank you for the clarification!

[Toph]

I don't know (maybe some of you do?) when Dennis made his comments about stifling creativity--if they were before KWH, then I would agree with him. If they were made after, then they are contradictory. That was all I was initially wondering about, anyway. Don't jump all over someone for having a question. Sheesh.

When Dennis talked about constraints being put on what types\styles of music could be written he was referring directly to the meeting they had during the time of Cornerstone. This was when things had come to head about First Time being used for a single and ultimately lead to the short ousting DDY. So he was referring to a time prior to KWH. Speaking of KWH, I'm sure DDY pushed harder then before on that concept, to which he himself has admitted was not the right thing to do. Also, I think you have to keep in mind that due to the success of ideas DDY brought forth prior to KWH the others seemed to be willing to take the risk. When it doesn't turn out how you expected it to it's always easy to point the finger at the person that came up with the idea even though there can be other aspects of the situation that caused it not to meet their expectations.

You know Kilroy sold almost 2 million copies and spawned two top 10 singles (and would have had 3 if TS let HWBHB be released). Thinking STYX today would kill for those kind of numbers. Yes, relative to PT, Kilroy was a disappointment, but overall, it was the band's 5th best selling album. Wasn't the disaster that some want to make it out to be.

[Boomchild]

You know Kilroy sold almost 2 million copies and spawned two top 10 singles (and would have had 3 if TS let HWBHB be released). Thinking STYX today would kill for those kind of numbers. Yes, relative to PT, Kilroy was a disappointment, but overall, it was the band's 5th best selling album. Wasn't the disaster that some want to make it out to be.

I don't think anyone here is stating that KWH was a disaster from a commercial standpoint. However, I am willing to bet if you were to ask DDY if it fully met his expectations and achieved what he wanted it to do, he would say no. I think he also sees how it hurt their working relationships. If he had to do it over again, I am sure he would not be doing it the same way. Now this is not to say that the situation was all DDY's fault there certainly are other factors that came into play here.

[masque]

What about Paradise Theater? They were drug into that one? That #1 album? You're all over the board on your argument. Either he was drug into it or he wasn't. The original claim was that She Cares was the only thing Tommy could come up with because he couldn't fit his songs into these concepts. But yet, he was able to for GI and Po8. Either he was confined by the concepts or he wasn't. You can't have it both ways. I know its hard to try and defend a habitual liar, Cassie, but welcome to the world of Tommy Shaw where your public statements often defy logic and accuracy and the real truth....

come on toph.....even you have to admit that after writing for a theme on two other albums that after a while that it could become difficult to continually be asked to do that.....then with kilroy being the 4th album that they were asked to do that would be extremely difficult.

sometimes when an "idea guy" comes up with a few ideas the others in the group feed off that vision and they move forward collectively but after a while the "idea guy" and his ideas may become constraining and what once was easier becomes more difficult and thus you no longer want to do it or feel inspired to go along with it.

[masque]

I don't know (maybe some of you do?) when Dennis made his comments about stifling creativity--if they were before KWH, then I would agree with him. If they were made after, then they are contradictory. That was all I was initially wondering about, anyway. Don't jump all over someone for having a question. Sheesh.

When Dennis talked about constraints being put on what types\styles of music could be written he was referring directly to the meeting they had during the time of Cornerstone. This was when things had come to head about First Time being used for a single and ultimately lead to the short ousting DDY. So he was referring to a time prior to KWH. Speaking of KWH, I'm sure DDY pushed harder then before on that concept, to which he himself has admitted was not the right thing to do. Also, I think you have to keep in mind that due to the success of ideas DDY brought forth prior to KWH the others seemed to be willing to take the risk. When it doesn't turn out how you expected it to it's always easy to point the finger at the person that came up with the idea even though there can be other aspects of the situation that caused it not to meet their expectations.

You know Kilroy sold almost 2 million copies and spawned two top 10 singles (and would have had 3 if TS let HWBHB be released). Thinking STYX today would kill for those kind of numbers. Yes, relative to PT, Kilroy was a disappointment, but overall, it was the band's 5th best selling album. Wasn't the disaster that some want to make it out to be.

seriously???? kilroy was a major disaster in just about every way one could imagine.....yes it did sell almost 2 million albums...but in comparison to the climb and six years worth of previous history it was a major disappointment...... do i think it's fair that people look at it like that? no I dont, but it is for sure the way that album was perceived.....it's like GI, POE and C were when the band was "winning their division and make the AFC championship game" and then finally with PT they made the super bowl with huge sales, video and radio airplay and the biggest tour of their of their career.......everybody thought it was sustainable for years to come and with kilroy the bottom began to fall out. the rug was not pulled out but somebody was tugging on it.

I do still believe that if you had taken the best songs off of desert moon and girls with guns and added a quality JY tune in there that they could have still had one more fairly successful album along the lines of kilroy before it all fell totally apart *see foreigner, journey and reo speedwagon for similar results of what could have been).

[Boomchild]

come on toph.....even you have to admit that after writing for a theme on two other albums that after a while that it could become difficult to continually be asked to do that.....then with kilroy being the 4th album that they were asked to do that would be extremely difficult.

sometimes when an "idea guy" comes up with a few ideas the others in the group feed off that vision and they move forward collectively but after a while the "idea guy" and his ideas may become constraining and what once was easier becomes more difficult and thus you no longer want to do it or feel inspired to go along with it.

It's not the idea of building an album around concepts that is a problem. It's about everyone involved being on board with what you are doing.

[Boomchild]

I do still believe that if you had taken the best songs off of desert moon and girls with guns and added a quality JY tune in there that they could have still had one more fairly successful album along the lines of kilroy before it all fell totally apart *see foreigner, journey and reo speedwagon for similar results of what could have been).

We could do "what if" scenarios till the end of time. It's a dead horse. The reality is THEY ALL made mistakes that led to the outcome. If fans could just agree on that then these discussions would be realistic.

[masque]

I do still believe that if you had taken the best songs off of desert moon and girls with guns and added a quality JY tune in there that they could have still had one more fairly successful album along the lines of kilroy before it all fell totally apart *see foreigner, journey and reo speedwagon for similar results of what could have been).

We could do "what if" scenarios till the end of time. It's a dead horse. The reality is THEY ALL made mistakes that led to the outcome. If fans could just agree on that then these discussions would be realistic.

i do agree with that 100%...always have.