The other side of the coin.

[bugsymalone]

Not to take one side of this or the other since I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T THERE. What I do wonder, and maybe you can shed some light, Sterling, is why the interested parties in that early meeting didn't do what they did in 1999 and re-form the group without Dennis. It sounds to me as if the majority (Tommy, JY, Chuck and John) were for putting the group back together. Why not just leave Dennis out?

There may not be an answer to this that anyone other than the members of Styx, past and present, knows.

Bugsy

[Rockwriter]

Not to take one side of this or the other since I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T THERE. What I do wonder, and maybe you can shed some light, Sterling, is why the interested parties in that early meeting didn't do what they did in 1999 and re-form the group without Dennis. It sounds to me as if the majority (Tommy, JY, Chuck and John) were for putting the group back together. Why not just leave Dennis out?

There may not be an answer to this that anyone other than the members of Styx, past and present, knows.

Bugsy

Actually, this has to do with the aforementioned role that JY played in those talks. After Dennis bowed out due to BOOMCHILD, the other band members did in fact carry on with their talks, with the intent of possibly putting the band together without him. Tommy's manager at that time, a guy named Bud Prager, ultimately advised Tommy that he felt trying to work with such a peculiar, ugly, negative situation was going to be a bad move for him. A lot of Prager's problem was with JY, who kinda came into that round of meetings with a list of demands for his participation, and Tommy had also received quite a bit of legal correspondence from JY over the course of years, for all manner of things, and he was clearly getting the feeling that working in that scenario was going to be more of the same kind of thing that had driven him crazy about working with Styx before, even if Dennis wasn't there. You have to understand that Tommy and JY were very much on the outs at the time, just as much as he and Dennis, and had been for years. That's not how they tell the story now. But Tommy said (and this is paraphrasing since I'm not looking at it right now), "I got that feeling it was going to be more of the same, and life's too short. It was just, 'Dennis will only do it if he gets this, and I'll only do it if I get that', and we would meet, and then everybody go talk to their lawyers. Not a band vibe at all. JY had word processing before anybody, and he was always dictating memos and sending mean-spirited letters. I always just cringed when I got a letter from JY because it was always mean-spirited, and in legalese. You dare not step out of line because you would hear from him, with copies to this guy and that guy, and my God , JY, lighten up, please!"

Bud Prager said (again paraphrasing),"I was vigorously opposed to JY, to his wanting to be so domineering. Dennis was not there, he had already been expunged, and I was trying to get some respect back for Tommy from a situation where there wasn't much of any for him at that time. I had seen a lot of correspondence and everything. It was just a peculiar, negative, ugly situation."

And so Tommy joined Damn Yankees instead, whereupon JY became even more furious with him. In fact I don't think the band members ever talk about this, but at the hotel after the Syracuse State Fair incident, when Tommy and Dennis bumped into each other, it wound up that the band members from Styx all came to Tommy's room and met his daughter and wound up having a pleasant visit, with the exception of JY, who refused to go. When he is angry with someone, he can be extremely unforgiving. Interestingly, his behavior toward Tommy at that time was virtually identical to his behavior toward Dennis now. I actually think JY is a good enough guy, personally, but boy, in this one area he seems to have a serious blind spot.

BTW, you can read the entire interview I did with Tommy at Styxcollector.com.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Toph]

Not to take one side of this or the other since I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T THERE. What I do wonder, and maybe you can shed some light, Sterling, is why the interested parties in that early meeting didn't do what they did in 1999 and re-form the group without Dennis. It sounds to me as if the majority (Tommy, JY, Chuck and John) were for putting the group back together. Why not just leave Dennis out?

There may not be an answer to this that anyone other than the members of Styx, past and present, knows.

Bugsy

Actually, this has to do with the aforementioned role that JY played in those talks. After Dennis bowed out due to BOOMCHILD, the other band members did in fact carry on with their talks, with the intent of possibly putting the band together without him. Tommy's manager at that time, a guy named Bud Prager, ultimately advised Tommy that he felt trying to work with such a peculiar, ugly, negative situation was going to be a bad move for him. A lot of Prager's problem was with JY, who kinda came into that round of meetings with a list of demands for his participation, and Tommy had also received quite a bit of legal correspondence from JY over the course of years, for all manner of things, and he was clearly getting the feeling that working in that scenario was going to be more of the same kind of thing that had driven him crazy about working with Styx before, even if Dennis wasn't there. You have to understand that Tommy and JY were very much on the outs at the time, just as much as he and Dennis, and had been for years. That's not how they tell the story now. But Tommy said (and this is paraphrasing since I'm not looking at it right now), "I got that feeling it was going to be more of the same, and life's too short. It was just, 'Dennis will only do it if he gets this, and I'll only do it if I get that', and we would meet, and then everybody go talk to their lawyers. Not a band vibe at all. JY had word processing before anybody, and he was always dictating memos and sending mean-spirited letters. I always just cringed when I got a letter from JY because it was always mean-spirited, and in legalese. You dare not step out of line because you would hear from him, with copies to this guy and that guy, and my God , JY, lighten up, please!"

Bud Prager said (again paraphrasing),"I was vigorously opposed to JY, to his wanting to be so domineering. Dennis was not there, he had already been expunged, and I was trying to get some respect back for Tommy from a situation where there wasn't much of any for him at that time. I had seen a lot of correspondence and everything. It was just a peculiar, negative, ugly situation."

And so Tommy joined Damn Yankees instead, whereupon JY became even more furious with him. In fact I don't think the band members ever talk about this, but at the hotel after the Syracuse State Fair incident, when Tommy and Dennis bumped into each other, it wound up that the band members from Styx all came to Tommy's room and met his daughter and wound up having a pleasant visit, with the exception of JY, who refused to go. When he is angry with someone, he can be extremely unforgiving. Interestingly, his behavior toward Tommy at that time was virtually identical to his behavior toward Dennis now. I actually think JY is a good enough guy, personally, but boy, in this one area he seems to have a serious blind spot.

BTW, you can read the entire interview I did with Tommy at Styxcollector.com.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

Tommy needs to realize that you don't have to keep changing your story if you simply tell the truth to begin with - obviously a tough concept for him.

[StyxCollector]

Tommy needs to realize that you don't have to keep changing your story if you simply tell the truth to begin with - obviously a tough concept for him.

It's a band problem. Most bands have it. History can change conveniently depending on the situation, or old "problems" can be glossed over since everyone is the "best of friends" again.

Should DDY ever return (and no, I don't think it's happening because that time IMO has passed), you'll see a different version of revisionist history and the time from 1999 until the reunion will be treated as nothing more than a "vacation" or something like that.

[Zan]

Tommy needs to realize that you don't have to keep changing your story if you simply tell the truth to begin with - obviously a tough concept for him.

It's a band problem. Most bands have it. History can change conveniently depending on the situation, or old "problems" can be glossed over since everyone is the "best of friends" again.

Should DDY ever return (and no, I don't think it's happening because that time IMO has passed), you'll see a different version of revisionist history and the time from 1999 until the reunion will be treated as nothing more than a "vacation" or something like that.

Yup. What's sadder still is that they'd *have to* treat it that way. In fanboyland, it's impossible to just keep it about the music. It's always gotta be about some scandal.

Musicians have...quirks. Bands have musicians. Therefore, bands have quirks. Duh.

[StyxCollector]

Yup. What's sadder still is that they'd *have to* treat it that way. In fanboyland, it's impossible to just keep it about the music. It's always gotta be about some scandal.

Musicians have...quirks. Bands have musicians. Therefore, bands have quirks. Duh.

Stop making sense

Seriously, I could care less if they hate each other. If they entertain me for 90 minutes or however long they are onstage, why does the other stuff matter?

[elmotano]

Yup. What's sadder still is that they'd *have to* treat it that way. In fanboyland, it's impossible to just keep it about the music. It's always gotta be about some scandal.

Musicians have...quirks. Bands have musicians. Therefore, bands have quirks. Duh.

Stop making sense

Seriously, I could care less if they hate each other. If they entertain me for 90 minutes or however long they are onstage, why does the other stuff matter?

well said!

[Zan]

Yup. What's sadder still is that they'd *have to* treat it that way. In fanboyland, it's impossible to just keep it about the music. It's always gotta be about some scandal.

Musicians have...quirks. Bands have musicians. Therefore, bands have quirks. Duh.

Stop making sense

Seriously, I could care less if they hate each other. If they entertain me for 90 minutes or however long they are onstage, why does the other stuff matter?

Yes. Sometimes I forget what board I'm on. lol

It doesn't matter! (not to me anyway, but then I'm accused of not being a "real fan" or some bullshit like that)

[chowhall]

, but then I'm accused of not being a "real fan" or some bullshit like that)

Mostly you're just accused of the bullshit.

[Zan]

, but then I'm accused of not being a "real fan" or some bullshit like that)

Mostly you're just accused of the bullshit.

Why don't you come down here and say that to my face, big man?

[stmonkeys]

, but then I'm accused of not being a "real fan" or some bullshit like that)

Mostly you're just accused of the bullshit.

Why don't you come down here and say that to my face, big man?

Hey Howie! i think it's popcorn time!

[chowhall]

Why don't you come down here and say that to my face, big man?

I'm afraid the free ride down to paradise has expired. Besides, I'm way too scared.

[Zan]

I'm afraid the free ride down to paradise has expired. Besides, I'm way too scared.

That sounds wrong on every level.

wuss.

[chowhall]

That sounds wrong on every level.

wuss.

I'm not the one typing in pink. Besides, I didn't sign up for the Styx heaux dominatrix classes yet.

[Rockwriter]

Not to take one side of this or the other since I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T THERE. What I do wonder, and maybe you can shed some light, Sterling, is why the interested parties in that early meeting didn't do what they did in 1999 and re-form the group without Dennis. It sounds to me as if the majority (Tommy, JY, Chuck and John) were for putting the group back together. Why not just leave Dennis out?

There may not be an answer to this that anyone other than the members of Styx, past and present, knows.

Bugsy

Actually, this has to do with the aforementioned role that JY played in those talks. After Dennis bowed out due to BOOMCHILD, the other band members did in fact carry on with their talks, with the intent of possibly putting the band together without him. Tommy's manager at that time, a guy named Bud Prager, ultimately advised Tommy that he felt trying to work with such a peculiar, ugly, negative situation was going to be a bad move for him. A lot of Prager's problem was with JY, who kinda came into that round of meetings with a list of demands for his participation, and Tommy had also received quite a bit of legal correspondence from JY over the course of years, for all manner of things, and he was clearly getting the feeling that working in that scenario was going to be more of the same kind of thing that had driven him crazy about working with Styx before, even if Dennis wasn't there. You have to understand that Tommy and JY were very much on the outs at the time, just as much as he and Dennis, and had been for years. That's not how they tell the story now. But Tommy said (and this is paraphrasing since I'm not looking at it right now), "I got that feeling it was going to be more of the same, and life's too short. It was just, 'Dennis will only do it if he gets this, and I'll only do it if I get that', and we would meet, and then everybody go talk to their lawyers. Not a band vibe at all. JY had word processing before anybody, and he was always dictating memos and sending mean-spirited letters. I always just cringed when I got a letter from JY because it was always mean-spirited, and in legalese. You dare not step out of line because you would hear from him, with copies to this guy and that guy, and my God , JY, lighten up, please!"

Bud Prager said (again paraphrasing),"I was vigorously opposed to JY, to his wanting to be so domineering. Dennis was not there, he had already been expunged, and I was trying to get some respect back for Tommy from a situation where there wasn't much of any for him at that time. I had seen a lot of correspondence and everything. It was just a peculiar, negative, ugly situation."

And so Tommy joined Damn Yankees instead, whereupon JY became even more furious with him. In fact I don't think the band members ever talk about this, but at the hotel after the Syracuse State Fair incident, when Tommy and Dennis bumped into each other, it wound up that the band members from Styx all came to Tommy's room and met his daughter and wound up having a pleasant visit, with the exception of JY, who refused to go. When he is angry with someone, he can be extremely unforgiving. Interestingly, his behavior toward Tommy at that time was virtually identical to his behavior toward Dennis now. I actually think JY is a good enough guy, personally, but boy, in this one area he seems to have a serious blind spot.

BTW, you can read the entire interview I did with Tommy at Styxcollector.com.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

Tommy needs to realize that you don't have to keep changing your story if you simply tell the truth to begin with - obviously a tough concept for him.

Tommy himself readily admits that his memory, to a point, is flawed. I would be hesitant to use anything he said from about 1977 until about 1989 without outside supporting sources, because he simply was abusing himself during that time in ways that tend to preclude him having the clearest memory. Tommy himself likes to tell a very funny story about going to some industry function when he first got clean, and he ran into some guy that he knew he knew, but could not put the face with the name. He was standing there trying to place this guy, when finally the guy said, "Tommy, I'm John Branca . . . . your attorney." LOL, he had been his lawyer for YEARS and he could not place him. So that's indicative of some of his memory gaps, and I always sought to use other sources to shore up some of what he said. In the years since he has been clean and sober, he still sometimes fudges facts, but it's understandable. You have to understand that the music biz is like a giant poker game, and each band is like a hand of poker. Each member is a card, and each card only has value if it is played with the right combination of other cards. Tommy understands that, and he tries to surround himself with the best situation of people that he can at any given time, and sometimes that means fudging certain facts and so on, so he does. I can't blame him. As a former publicist, it's what I would have told him to do if I were his PR guy. He does not benefit in his current situation from introducing those years of rancor with JY, since he is now partnered with the man, so he doesn't. Easy enough to understand.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Monker]

So much venom has been spewed about Gowen "daring" to do DeYoung songs.

Very rarely have I seen mention of the 91 tour (when the shoe was on the other foot).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YBaKIVODdY&feature=related

To be fair, Burtnik did a good job with the song.

Ah, but all parties were agreeable to this. And, besides, Glen can actually sing.


Bugsy

It was insane on forums like this back when Glen joined Styx. There were more posts on Styx forums then Journey forums at that time. Glen wasn't accepted by all back then, VERY much the same story back then as with Gowan today. And, when I first heard "Hero's and Zeros", and "Slaves of New Brunswick", I felt like he was a Bruce Sprinsteen wannabe who fit into Styx about as well as Bob Dylan would. I remember seeing him on the Arsenio show and it looked like they brought in some kinda statue to stand in for Glen, cuz the guy didn't seem to move at all.

As far as being agreeable to this...it seems to me that I remember Dennis whining about the "Babe" stunt DY was pulling...and there was a lot of tension when they crossed paths on tour. I don't think it was a peaceful separation.

I believe even Glen made a comment on his site that seemed to say he has come full circle: Hated by Tommy fans but loved by Dennis fans when he first joined Styx. Loved by Tommy fans and hated by Dennis fans after Dennis left. Then hated by Tommy fans yet again when he joined Dennis for a couple shows...People look at these situations and inject their own angst on whoever they can blame, deserved or not.

I think Glen grew out of his role of "Tommy's replacement" and became his own persona in the band - and that is why he does not receive the same critique as he did 15yrs or so ago.

[Monker]

Bud Prager said (again paraphrasing),"I was vigorously opposed to JY, to his wanting to be so domineering. Dennis was not there, he had already been expunged, and I was trying to get some respect back for Tommy from a situation where there wasn't much of any for him at that time. I had seen a lot of correspondence and everything. It was just a peculiar, negative, ugly situation."

And so Tommy joined Damn Yankees instead, whereupon JY became even more furious with him. In fact I don't think the band members ever talk about this, but at the hotel after the Syracuse State Fair incident, when Tommy and Dennis bumped into each other, it wound up that the band members from Styx all came to Tommy's room and met his daughter and wound up having a pleasant visit, with the exception of JY, who refused to go. When he is angry with someone, he can be extremely unforgiving. Interestingly, his behavior toward Tommy at that time was virtually identical to his behavior toward Dennis now. I actually think JY is a good enough guy, personally, but boy, in this one area he seems to have a serious blind spot.

BTW, you can read the entire interview I did with Tommy at Styxcollector.com.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

Geez, that's not the whole story. I think on this site there is a Dennis interview where he says he talked to Tommy several times about getting Styx back together but he couldn't because of his obligations to Boomchild. In the end DENNIS TOLD TOMMY that if he had to make a choice between waiting for him, and accepting an offer to join an band with Ted Nugent, and he had to work, that he should join the band with Ted Nugent.

BOTH Tommy and Dennis have told this same story. So, yeah, maybe Tommy didn't want to stay in Styx and that situation...HOWEVER, he DID want to be in the full band...as evidenced by multiple queries by Tommy. Dennis delayed and delayed and delayed, and it was probably justified, but in the end he TOLD TOMMY to join DY because he did not know when he would be available.

[Monker]

..

[Monker]

Ah, but all parties were agreeable to this.

...of sorts. Not exactly. And just because we don't hear about it now, there *was* a boatload of controversy surrounding Glen at the time.

I guess I was looking at it from the perspective of a band member voluntarily leaving the band (Tommy), joining up with another band (Damn Yankees) and Styx reforming with a replacement for him, as opposed to a band member being involuntarily removed (Dennis) and Styx reforming with a replacement.

Far more went into this mix, I am aware, but that was/is the bottom line, in my view.


Bugsy

I didn't read this entire thread before I posted...

But, damn, do you really think Tommy fans gave a damn about the nuances when this went down? Hell NO! Especialy when his replacement looked like some reject from an 80's hair band and had a style completely unlike Styx. It caused a hell of a lot of contraversy Comments like you make above make you look VERY ignorant about what the fans reaction was at that time.

[Monker]

So much venom has been spewed about Gowen "daring" to do DeYoung songs.

Very rarely have I seen mention of the 91 tour (when the shoe was on the other foot).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YBaKIVODdY&feature=related

To be fair, Burtnik did a good job with the song.

Could it be because we didn't have the internet?

No, we had AOL, Prodigy and GEnie. On the GEnie Styx forum alone, there was probably more posts there in one year then there are currently on the Journey forum at MR.com.

Also, Glen posted on Prodigy....and people accused him of not being Glen. If that makes sense.

[Monker]

Any book of any quality can be 'published'. There was an article on critters.org where a group of authors got together to write "the worst book ever written" and sent it to a specific publisher to make a point that they would publish anything - without even reading it. And, it was published.

Of course, if you self-publish, you can say anything you want, within reason. Never, ever, put all faith in a self-published book. That may be a knock at Sterling, but if his book is saying, or implying, that Tommy was not interested in joining Styx prior to joining DY - he is wrong and is doing a diservice to the Styx community by publishing it.

Hey Topher.
You are exactly what I'm lookin for.
I wrote a book about how to make your first MILL.
It is called 'How to make your first MILLL.'.
What you do is the next time you go to a motel ,you pick up the bible which will be somewhere in your room,if it has not been stolen.
If that is the case you ask for another room because the icemachine is making to much noise,and hopefully there wil be one in there.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

You take the first 2 letters in said book and invest in the first stock option starting with those said letters,in the company you first come across.
Is this clear?
Then a month later you invest in the next 2 letters in said book.

Easy?
Sure it is.

Now the bible was written by somebody I forget who,,,.
But it was written so it must be true.....
My book was written and it took a long time so it must be true.

I am willing to share my wealth,but you must buy my book.

39;99 and you will be wealthy.

No money back guarantee.

Talking about tees.
I almost had a hole in one.

But that was a week ago,,,,,,,,,
zzzzzzzz

[bugsymalone]

But, damn, do you really think Tommy fans gave a damn about the nuances when this went down? Hell NO! Especialy when his replacement looked like some reject from an 80's hair band and had a style completely unlike Styx. It caused a hell of a lot of contraversy Comments like you make above make you look VERY ignorant about what the fans reaction was at that time.

I guess what I said was too "nuanced" for you, Monker. (So what else is new ? ) The only point I was making, fans aside, was that one member left voluntarily and the other did not. I will let you figure out which was which.

Whatever else happened regarding fans, replacements, etc. is aside from that bottom line.


Bugsy

[Rockwriter]

Bud Prager said (again paraphrasing),"I was vigorously opposed to JY, to his wanting to be so domineering. Dennis was not there, he had already been expunged, and I was trying to get some respect back for Tommy from a situation where there wasn't much of any for him at that time. I had seen a lot of correspondence and everything. It was just a peculiar, negative, ugly situation."

And so Tommy joined Damn Yankees instead, whereupon JY became even more furious with him. In fact I don't think the band members ever talk about this, but at the hotel after the Syracuse State Fair incident, when Tommy and Dennis bumped into each other, it wound up that the band members from Styx all came to Tommy's room and met his daughter and wound up having a pleasant visit, with the exception of JY, who refused to go. When he is angry with someone, he can be extremely unforgiving. Interestingly, his behavior toward Tommy at that time was virtually identical to his behavior toward Dennis now. I actually think JY is a good enough guy, personally, but boy, in this one area he seems to have a serious blind spot.

BTW, you can read the entire interview I did with Tommy at Styxcollector.com.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

Geez, that's not the whole story. I think on this site there is a Dennis interview where he says he talked to Tommy several times about getting Styx back together but he couldn't because of his obligations to Boomchild. In the end DENNIS TOLD TOMMY that if he had to make a choice between waiting for him, and accepting an offer to join an band with Ted Nugent, and he had to work, that he should join the band with Ted Nugent.

BOTH Tommy and Dennis have told this same story. So, yeah, maybe Tommy didn't want to stay in Styx and that situation...HOWEVER, he DID want to be in the full band...as evidenced by multiple queries by Tommy. Dennis delayed and delayed and delayed, and it was probably justified, but in the end he TOLD TOMMY to join DY because he did not know when he would be available.

Also a version that I have read, but who knows? It certainly is not what Tommy told me, nor what others around those negotiations had to say. You know, these guys get asked the same questions over and over and over, and at some point sometimes they just kinda get past them with the simplest explanation to avoid talking about it anymore.

And if you'll read my rather long post prior to that one, I actually already talked about the whole BOOMCHILD debacle. I'm not trying to say Tommy is solely to blame; I'm saying that, as always with this group, there is shared blame followed by a round of silly finger pointing and misplaced rancor. If you've ever watched the Metallica documentary 'Some Kind of Monster', you'll see that at one point the group hires a therapist to come in and actually do group therapy sessions with the band members, to try and mediate between some of the conflict. When they actually start talking like adults, it's both sad and amusing how ridiculously small most of their issues with one another are. But that's how it is in bands. Styx is no different.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

Any book of any quality can be 'published'. There was an article on critters.org where a group of authors got together to write "the worst book ever written" and sent it to a specific publisher to make a point that they would publish anything - without even reading it. And, it was published.

Of course, if you self-publish, you can say anything you want, within reason. Never, ever, put all faith in a self-published book. That may be a knock at Sterling, but if his book is saying, or implying, that Tommy was not interested in joining Styx prior to joining DY - he is wrong and is doing a diservice to the Styx community by publishing it.

Hey Topher.
You are exactly what I'm lookin for.
I wrote a book about how to make your first MILL.
It is called 'How to make your first MILLL.'.
What you do is the next time you go to a motel ,you pick up the bible which will be somewhere in your room,if it has not been stolen.
If that is the case you ask for another room because the icemachine is making to much noise,and hopefully there wil be one in there.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

You take the first 2 letters in said book and invest in the first stock option starting with those said letters,in the company you first come across.
Is this clear?
Then a month later you invest in the next 2 letters in said book.

Easy?
Sure it is.

Now the bible was written by somebody I forget who,,,.
But it was written so it must be true.....
My book was written and it took a long time so it must be true.

I am willing to share my wealth,but you must buy my book.

39;99 and you will be wealthy.

No money back guarantee.

Talking about tees.
I almost had a hole in one.

But that was a week ago,,,,,,,,,
zzzzzzzz

You evidently haven't read my book, so let me educate you about its contents. I actually go into a fairly long and multi-sided discussion about how those negotiations went down, both rounds of them, talk about BOOMCHILD and its delays, and all of it. I don't say Tommy didn't want to be part of it. What transpires is that the talks fall apart, he gets another opportunity, and so on. But in that era Tommy does make the comment that he wasn't "excited" about doing Styx again, because he could tell it was going to be more of the same. By the way, that's not something I pulled out of thin air. It came from a personal interview with none other than Tommy Shaw himself. So there's that.

As far as "anything can be self-published", I suppose that's true, but in the instance of biography, I am constrained by all of the exact same laws that constrain any other publisher of non-fiction. I had to have my sources straight, I have to have multiple sources. And if you had read the book you would know that I present point-counterpoint on every single issue, so there's no editorial bias. And the ideas and material come not from me, but from personal interviews with the direct participants in the events, as well as lots of archival research. An indy publisher can be sued just like anyone else.

By the way, you should never put all faith in ANY book, because the writers are human beings, and the subjects themselves are human beings with bias.

Thanks for the chance to clear that up.

Sterling

[DerriD]

But, damn, do you really think Tommy fans gave a damn about the nuances when this went down? Hell NO! Especialy when his replacement looked like some reject from an 80's hair band and had a style completely unlike Styx. It caused a hell of a lot of contraversy Comments like you make above make you look VERY ignorant about what the fans reaction was at that time.

I guess what I said was too "nuanced" for you, Monker. (So what else is new ? ) The only point I was making, fans aside, was that one member left voluntarily and the other did not. I will let you figure out which was which.

Whatever else happened regarding fans, replacements, etc. is aside from that bottom line.


Bugsy

Yep,

Been a long time since his last post, then several in a row all of them 'correcting' people.

So glad to have a perfect soul shining the light of truth into the darkness of our ignorance.

[Toph]

Any book of any quality can be 'published'. There was an article on critters.org where a group of authors got together to write "the worst book ever written" and sent it to a specific publisher to make a point that they would publish anything - without even reading it. And, it was published.

Of course, if you self-publish, you can say anything you want, within reason. Never, ever, put all faith in a self-published book. That may be a knock at Sterling, but if his book is saying, or implying, that Tommy was not interested in joining Styx prior to joining DY - he is wrong and is doing a diservice to the Styx community by publishing it.

Hey Topher.
You are exactly what I'm lookin for.
I wrote a book about how to make your first MILL.
It is called 'How to make your first MILLL.'.
What you do is the next time you go to a motel ,you pick up the bible which will be somewhere in your room,if it has not been stolen.
If that is the case you ask for another room because the icemachine is making to much noise,and hopefully there wil be one in there.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

You take the first 2 letters in said book and invest in the first stock option starting with those said letters,in the company you first come across.
Is this clear?
Then a month later you invest in the next 2 letters in said book.

Easy?
Sure it is.

Now the bible was written by somebody I forget who,,,.
But it was written so it must be true.....
My book was written and it took a long time so it must be true.

I am willing to share my wealth,but you must buy my book.

39;99 and you will be wealthy.

No money back guarantee.

Talking about tees.
I almost had a hole in one.

But that was a week ago,,,,,,,,,
zzzzzzzz

You evidently haven't read my book, so let me educate you about its contents. I actually go into a fairly long and multi-sided discussion about how those negotiations went down, both rounds of them, talk about BOOMCHILD and its delays, and all of it. I don't say Tommy didn't want to be part of it. What transpires is that the talks fall apart, he gets another opportunity, and so on. But in that era Tommy does make the comment that he wasn't "excited" about doing Styx again, because he could tell it was going to be more of the same. By the way, that's not something I pulled out of thin air. It came from a personal interview with none other than Tommy Shaw himself. So there's that.

As far as "anything can be self-published", I suppose that's true, but in the instance of biography, I am constrained by all of the exact same laws that constrain any other publisher of non-fiction. I had to have my sources straight, I have to have multiple sources. And if you had read the book you would know that I present point-counterpoint on every single issue, so there's no editorial bias. And the ideas and material come not from me, but from personal interviews with the direct participants in the events, as well as lots of archival research. An indy publisher can be sued just like anyone else.

By the way, you should never put all faith in ANY book, because the writers are human beings, and the subjects themselves are human beings with bias.

Thanks for the chance to clear that up.

Sterling

Nice explanation Sterling...Monker, do us a favor and go back into your cave....

[Rockwriter]

Any book of any quality can be 'published'. There was an article on critters.org where a group of authors got together to write "the worst book ever written" and sent it to a specific publisher to make a point that they would publish anything - without even reading it. And, it was published.

Of course, if you self-publish, you can say anything you want, within reason. Never, ever, put all faith in a self-published book. That may be a knock at Sterling, but if his book is saying, or implying, that Tommy was not interested in joining Styx prior to joining DY - he is wrong and is doing a diservice to the Styx community by publishing it.

Hey Topher.
You are exactly what I'm lookin for.
I wrote a book about how to make your first MILL.
It is called 'How to make your first MILLL.'.
What you do is the next time you go to a motel ,you pick up the bible which will be somewhere in your room,if it has not been stolen.
If that is the case you ask for another room because the icemachine is making to much noise,and hopefully there wil be one in there.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

You take the first 2 letters in said book and invest in the first stock option starting with those said letters,in the company you first come across.
Is this clear?
Then a month later you invest in the next 2 letters in said book.

Easy?
Sure it is.

Now the bible was written by somebody I forget who,,,.
But it was written so it must be true.....
My book was written and it took a long time so it must be true.

I am willing to share my wealth,but you must buy my book.

39;99 and you will be wealthy.

No money back guarantee.

Talking about tees.
I almost had a hole in one.

But that was a week ago,,,,,,,,,
zzzzzzzz

You evidently haven't read my book, so let me educate you about its contents. I actually go into a fairly long and multi-sided discussion about how those negotiations went down, both rounds of them, talk about BOOMCHILD and its delays, and all of it. I don't say Tommy didn't want to be part of it. What transpires is that the talks fall apart, he gets another opportunity, and so on. But in that era Tommy does make the comment that he wasn't "excited" about doing Styx again, because he could tell it was going to be more of the same. By the way, that's not something I pulled out of thin air. It came from a personal interview with none other than Tommy Shaw himself. So there's that.

As far as "anything can be self-published", I suppose that's true, but in the instance of biography, I am constrained by all of the exact same laws that constrain any other publisher of non-fiction. I had to have my sources straight, I have to have multiple sources. And if you had read the book you would know that I present point-counterpoint on every single issue, so there's no editorial bias. And the ideas and material come not from me, but from personal interviews with the direct participants in the events, as well as lots of archival research. An indy publisher can be sued just like anyone else.

By the way, you should never put all faith in ANY book, because the writers are human beings, and the subjects themselves are human beings with bias.

Thanks for the chance to clear that up.

Sterling

Nice explanation Sterling...Monker, do us a favor and go back into your cave....

I just want to clarify that I'm not knocking Monker or trying to belittle him; I'm just imparting information that he might not possess. I don't want this to turn into a Sterling VS. Monker cage match, LOL. I'm not against him, or anyone else, for that matter.

Just wanted to say that for whatever it's worth. I hope all is well.

Sterling

[chowhall]

I just want to clarify that I'm not knocking Monker or trying to belittle him; I'm just imparting information that he might not possess. I don't want this to turn into a Sterling VS. Monker cage match, LOL. I'm not against him, or anyone else, for that matter.

Just wanted to say that for whatever it's worth. I hope all is well.

Sterling

It's nice you're taking the high road Sterling. However this Wanker, I mean Monker wasn't. He made some not so subtle references that you didn't do the research, have the access, or know what you were writing about. I know you don't need my help to defend you, especially in writing, but don't give this jerk the respect he hasn't shown you. You wrote a great non biased book. He obviously didn't read it. He did a drive by shooting and went to cower in his Journey board again. Let him slither there and stay.

[Monker]

You evidently haven't read my book, so let me educate you about its contents. I actually go into a fairly long and multi-sided discussion about how those negotiations went down, both rounds of them, talk about BOOMCHILD and its delays, and all of it. I don't say Tommy didn't want to be part of it. What transpires is that the talks fall apart, he gets another opportunity, and so on. But in that era Tommy does make the comment that he wasn't "excited" about doing Styx again, because he could tell it was going to be more of the same. By the way, that's not something I pulled out of thin air. It came from a personal interview with none other than Tommy Shaw himself. So there's that.

Then obviously Toph did not give the full story of what is in your book, or took the quote out of context.

As far as "anything can be self-published", I suppose that's true, but in the instance of biography, I am constrained by all of the exact same laws that constrain any other publisher of non-fiction.

That is true. However, even a biography can be very amaturish when self-published. There is a Journey biography that is very much that way. Everything I have read about self-publishing is to be very suspicious of it being a very amature effort. Now, it is not always the case...especially if it is from an established writer...but it should send up red flags.

I had to have my sources straight, I have to have multiple sources. And if you had read the book you would know that I present point-counterpoint on every single issue, so there's no editorial bias. And the ideas and material come not from me, but from personal interviews with the direct participants in the events, as well as lots of archival research. An indy publisher can be sued just like anyone else.

Then those quoting you are doing a disservice to you when they do not give the full story of what you are trying to say and do. People take these things, interviews and articles, books, and whatever, and twist them to satisfy their own agendas. That is now what I think is going on here more then anything.

My main point was there was more to what happened then what was quoted here. If the complete picture is what you tell, then that is a good thing. It's like the old quote, "Even the devil can quote scripture if it suits his purpose."

By the way, you should never put all faith in ANY book, because the writers are human beings, and the subjects themselves are human beings with bias.

Yep, I agree with that too.

[Monker]

Any book of any quality can be 'published'. There was an article on critters.org where a group of authors got together to write "the worst book ever written" and sent it to a specific publisher to make a point that they would publish anything - without even reading it. And, it was published.

Of course, if you self-publish, you can say anything you want, within reason. Never, ever, put all faith in a self-published book. That may be a knock at Sterling, but if his book is saying, or implying, that Tommy was not interested in joining Styx prior to joining DY - he is wrong and is doing a diservice to the Styx community by publishing it.

Hey Topher.
You are exactly what I'm lookin for.
I wrote a book about how to make your first MILL.
It is called 'How to make your first MILLL.'.
What you do is the next time you go to a motel ,you pick up the bible which will be somewhere in your room,if it has not been stolen.
If that is the case you ask for another room because the icemachine is making to much noise,and hopefully there wil be one in there.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

You take the first 2 letters in said book and invest in the first stock option starting with those said letters,in the company you first come across.
Is this clear?
Then a month later you invest in the next 2 letters in said book.

Easy?
Sure it is.

Now the bible was written by somebody I forget who,,,.
But it was written so it must be true.....
My book was written and it took a long time so it must be true.

I am willing to share my wealth,but you must buy my book.

39;99 and you will be wealthy.

No money back guarantee.

Talking about tees.
I almost had a hole in one.

But that was a week ago,,,,,,,,,
zzzzzzzz

You evidently haven't read my book, so let me educate you about its contents. I actually go into a fairly long and multi-sided discussion about how those negotiations went down, both rounds of them, talk about BOOMCHILD and its delays, and all of it. I don't say Tommy didn't want to be part of it. What transpires is that the talks fall apart, he gets another opportunity, and so on. But in that era Tommy does make the comment that he wasn't "excited" about doing Styx again, because he could tell it was going to be more of the same. By the way, that's not something I pulled out of thin air. It came from a personal interview with none other than Tommy Shaw himself. So there's that.

As far as "anything can be self-published", I suppose that's true, but in the instance of biography, I am constrained by all of the exact same laws that constrain any other publisher of non-fiction. I had to have my sources straight, I have to have multiple sources. And if you had read the book you would know that I present point-counterpoint on every single issue, so there's no editorial bias. And the ideas and material come not from me, but from personal interviews with the direct participants in the events, as well as lots of archival research. An indy publisher can be sued just like anyone else.

By the way, you should never put all faith in ANY book, because the writers are human beings, and the subjects themselves are human beings with bias.

Thanks for the chance to clear that up.

Sterling

Nice explanation Sterling...Monker, do us a favor and go back into your cave....

I just want to clarify that I'm not knocking Monker or trying to belittle him; I'm just imparting information that he might not possess. I don't want this to turn into a Sterling VS. Monker cage match, LOL. I'm not against him, or anyone else, for that matter.

Just wanted to say that for whatever it's worth. I hope all is well.

Sterling

Not taken that way at all...and it's good to see you took a bit of critique with a grain of salt.