Why did Styx erase Dennis from it's history?

[Boomchild]

I know JY/TS and DDY don't get along and he's been out of the band for 11 years but on the website, there's no mention of him at all. It's like he was never in the band and they don't play many of his songs at the shows. Is this actually working? Do newer Styx fans not even know about DDY anymore?

On the current tour they show all the album covers on the giant video screen behind the band as they leave the stage. DDY’s photo is in several of those pictures at least 30 feet tall in full color!

Now that's got to be something that was overlooked. Wait till JY notices it!

[Monker]

all traces of dennis vanished from the website around the time of the lawsuit circa 2000. call me crazy, but perhaps somewhere it was decided that they (styx) couldn't use ddy's name or image with regards to promoting the band. but of course, froy is (as always) right on target with his conspiracy theories.

I would have to say that the "lawsuit" theory is just a political smokescreen for the simple reason of egos.

And, I think the "erase Dennis from Styx history" is a conspiracy theory with as much likelyhood of being true as the rumor that Steve Perry was kidnapped by martians are replaced by a clone.

[pinkfloyd1973]

And, I think the "erase Dennis from Styx history" is a conspiracy theory with as much likelyhood of being true as the rumor that Steve Perry was kidnapped by martians are replaced by a clone.

You mean it's not true about Steve Perry?!?!? Say it ain't so

Robin 8)

[Boomchild]

all traces of dennis vanished from the website around the time of the lawsuit circa 2000. call me crazy, but perhaps somewhere it was decided that they (styx) couldn't use ddy's name or image with regards to promoting the band. but of course, froy is (as always) right on target with his conspiracy theories.

I would have to say that the "lawsuit" theory is just a political smokescreen for the simple reason of egos.

And, I think the "erase Dennis from Styx history" is a conspiracy theory with as much likelyhood of being true as the rumor that Steve Perry was kidnapped by martians are replaced by a clone.

While it may not be the only reason for some of things that have been done, I think that it is part of it and not completely a conspiracy theory.

[Everett]

And, I think the "erase Dennis from Styx history" is a conspiracy theory with as much likelyhood of being true as the rumor that Steve Perry was kidnapped by martians are replaced by a clone.

You mean it's not true about Steve Perry?!?!? Say it ain't so

Robin 8)

It does explain a lot though

[mrsromek]

DDY is, was and always will be Styx. Founding member, one of the best songwriters of his genre and he put Styx on the map. JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night. Same could be said about Schon in Journey. Journey will always be Steve Perry, not Neal. Ask 10 strangers if they know anyone in Journey, and I bet you that 9 say Steve Perry.

By the way, DDY will be playing at Frontier Days on Saturday and I will be there. Really looking forward to it...great fest, and should be a great set!

[Boomchild]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

[bugsymalone]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

[Rockwriter]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

Hmmm, interesting point. I don't know, I really don't. At least with Tommy there, Styx still has one of its principal writers and front men. Foreigner has all new members but one, but at least that one is one of the two principal writers and one of the two most recognizable members. If Tommy left Styx you'd have JY, and a lot of fans might have never known who he was. Not only that, I don't know if JY has the musical vision to guide the band in the absence of both Tommy and Dennis. I think he needs one or the other there, since his strength is in the business side. Look at the James Young Group for example; it sounded reasonably good doing Styx covers, but ultimately was kinda devoid of any real guiding vision. It was just kinda there.

That said, who knows? Maybe people would still go see Styx without Tommy or Dennis. Maybe you can replace EVERYONE in every band in the world and people will be none the wiser. I agree, I think if Tommy were going to leave he'd have done it by now. As it is he comes in and punches the clock with Styx, and then uses the money he earns from that to fuel what he really wants to do musically outside of the band. It's a pretty good situation for him, so yeah, I don't see it changing.

Sterling

[LtVanish]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

JY Group super group? City Slicker album from start to finish, Miss America, Captain America, dang would that set list be ate up.

[Boomchild]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

All are good points. With respect to the TS not being in the band, I was more referring to Styx's core or die hard fans. I should have been more clear on that.

[Boomchild]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

JY Group super group? City Slicker album from start to finish, Miss America, Captain America, dang would that set list be ate up.

If something like this were to occur, I'm sure they would get someone to take TS's place. If they were to eliminate the TS songs from the set list like they have with DDy's, that would be a very short set list. I seriously doubt this would occur. I would think that both JY and TS are earning the lions share of the profits now. One of the other reasons I think that they booted DDY out of Styx.

[chickenbeef]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

JY Group super group? City Slicker album from start to finish, Miss America, Captain America, dang would that set list be ate up.

If something like this were to occur, I'm sure they would get someone to take TS's place. If they were to eliminate the TS songs from the set list like they have with DDy's, that would be a very short set list. I seriously doubt this would occur. I would think that both JY and TS are earning the lions share of the profits now. One of the other reasons I think that they booted DDY out of Styx.

or maybe they just don't like each other?

[Babyblue]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

JY Group super group? City Slicker album from start to finish, Miss America, Captain America, dang would that set list be ate up.

If something like this were to occur, I'm sure they would get someone to take TS's place. If they were to eliminate the TS songs from the set list like they have with DDy's, that would be a very short set list. I seriously doubt this would occur. I would think that both JY and TS are earning the lions share of the profits now. One of the other reasons I think that they booted DDY out of Styx.

or maybe they just don't like each other?

I think CB maybe on to something here guys.

[Boomchild]

JY will always be pissed because he is in the shadow of his original frontman-still to this day, and he's not even sharing a stage with him each night.

You may have something there. This could be part of the reason for the friction between the two of them. Also, if TS were to be replaced in Styx I don't think that fans would take the band seriously anymore.

The psychology of that situation will always remain with JY and DDY, as it should. We can only speculate. No more.

I will say, though, that if Tommy left the current lineup of Styx, I think they would find a suitable replacement (August Zadra?? ) and go on and would likely continue to play the kind of shows they now do with not a lot of notice from a lot of those attending the shows. It sure doesn't bother audiences now that Foreigner has only one remaining member from their heyday.

That said, Tommy Shaw is NOT abandoning this ca$h cow now, in the future, or ever, as long as she is producing the goods.


Bugsy

JY Group super group? City Slicker album from start to finish, Miss America, Captain America, dang would that set list be ate up.

If something like this were to occur, I'm sure they would get someone to take TS's place. If they were to eliminate the TS songs from the set list like they have with DDy's, that would be a very short set list. I seriously doubt this would occur. I would think that both JY and TS are earning the lions share of the profits now. One of the other reasons I think that they booted DDY out of Styx.

or maybe they just don't like each other?

I'm sure thats true as well. Since there has been talk in the past about the money DDY was making in the band compared to his band mates, I think it's safe to say that could be added to the list.

[Blue Falcon]

I'm surprised with all of JY's "technology savvy" that he has not hit upon the idea of using Photoshop to erase DDY from all of their previous album covers, and then re-release them. Sort of like what Ozzy's wife had him do when former bandmates complained they weren't getting paid royalties from his first two albums, although she went so far as to have the bass and drums completely re-recorded by others before re-releasing thos albums.

JY could put a picture of one of those moai statues on Pieces of Eight in place of DDY...he could put Waldo popping out from behind the tree on Grand Illusion...Jimmy Hoffa on Kilroy Was Here...the possibilities for hilarity are endless!

Seriously, it appears that JY is the only one still bearing a grudge, although it seems like he has toned it down in the last couple of years. I agree that he probably always harbored some jealousy towards DDY because of the disparity in their creative output...and now that Styx is HIS band, he is able to extract his revenge by making DDY an 'unperson' like they did in the ol' Soviet Union.

Big difference between Styx and Journey...Neal Schon has said, in many interviews, that they wanted someone who sounded like Steve Perry, and has never tried to diminish his contributions to their success. Journey was an average prog-scifi-melodic-whatever band before Perry joined, and Perry helped lift them out of obscurity. Schon has not forgotten that, at least.

It's different with Styx because they were all together from the beginning. If JY should feel any hostility, maybe it should have been directed at 'pretty boy' Tommy Shaw, who joined later and helped Styx become more successful too. Maybe he would have if TS had tried to assume control of the post-DDY Styx, but has not incurred the 'Wrath of JY' because he's too laid back.

[Monker]

Big difference between Styx and Journey...Neal Schon has said, in many interviews, that they wanted someone who sounded like Steve Perry, and has never tried to diminish his contributions to their success. Journey was an average prog-scifi-melodic-whatever band before Perry joined, and Perry helped lift them out of obscurity. Schon has not forgotten that, at least.

That is not completely true...and there are many Perry fans who have said the exact same thing about Journey wanting to erase Perry from their history. When Augeri joined the band, they didn't WANT to go with a Perry clone. They wanted someone who could sing the old songs but also take them in a different 'rockier' direction. It was not until after Augeri and Soto that we suddenly heard all of this stuff about needing to sound like Perry and be true to the 'legacy sound' of the band. In the beginning, he WAS trying to deminish what people thought Perry contributed.

There are even Neal interviews after ROR where Neal said he HATED Steve Perry during the recording of ROR. Nral never particularly liked "Open Arms" and it basically had to be forced upon him...similar to Styx and Babe.

What you are saying above is a more recent attitude...and they really do not have any choice since they hired a YouTube cover singer who does his best to sound exactly like Steve Perry.

Also, Perry may have 'helped' bring them out of obscurity, but he did not do it on his own. After Infinity, Evolution, Departure, Capture, and Dream After Dream, Journey was no where near a monstrous success...It was not until Jonathan Cain joined and Escape was released when all of the mega success came...similar to Tommy entering the band and suddenly you get CB, GI, PoE, etc....Dennis did not do it on his own despite what people want to believe.

If JY should feel any hostility, maybe it should have been directed at 'pretty boy' Tommy Shaw, who joined later and helped Styx become more successful too. Maybe he would have if TS had tried to assume control of the post-DDY Styx, but has not incurred the 'Wrath of JY' because he's too laid back.

Unless, of course, Tommy was more of a team player and could work WITH JY instead of always wanting to believe that his ideas were the only ones that 'really' mattered. Which, BTW, is also exactly what happened in Journey during ROR, and why Neal said he HATED Steve Perry.

Perry/DeYoung taking over: production, hiring/firing of band members, approving cover art and concepts, pushing ideas of what the writing should be like....all of this in spite of what other band members and management wanted. Those two have a LOT in common in both their attitudes, and the attitudes they inspired from their bandmates.

[StyxCollector]

Dennis did not do it on his own despite what people want to believe.

Dennis may claim to do certain things (such as production), but he always credits everyone in Styx for making that music. He knows it wouldn't have happened without those other guys. So it's the fans who think that who are misguided.

Unless, of course, Tommy was more of a team player and could work WITH JY instead of always wanting to believe that his ideas were the only ones that 'really' mattered. Which, BTW, is also exactly what happened in Journey during ROR, and why Neal said he HATED Steve Perry.

Sterling - correct me, but I remember somewhere in your book where JY sent letters to Tommy via his lawyer in the '70s. How fun was that, eh?

Perry/DeYoung taking over: production, hiring/firing of band members, approving cover art and concepts, pushing ideas of what the writing should be like....all of this in spite of what other band members and management wanted. Those two have a LOT in common in both their attitudes, and the attitudes they inspired from their bandmates.

Styx was more democratic overall than that (especially if you read the '81 contract). Usually Chuck had a lot to do with the artwork. JY was more business savvy. Tommy was the "fan friendly" face of Styx. Dennis drove them musically in the studio for the most part. Everyone played a role. The reality with bands like Journey and Styx is they could have gone down the roads they did (Cornerstone, PT, Kilroy; Escape and Frontiers) where they had more massive success, or try to stay on their old paths and become dinosaurs and be out of the business sooner rather than later. Dennis talks about it in my interview in the part where he's talking about going to England in '78. Yes, they fired Dennis in '79. Fact. They took him back. Fact. When you start having success, it's much easier to stomach what many years later you later perceive to be bad.

Perry had Smith and Valory fired. Dennis didn't fire Tommy. So in that parallel, Journey has no real equivalent.

[Rockwriter]

Dennis did not do it on his own despite what people want to believe.

Dennis may claim to do certain things (such as production), but he always credits everyone in Styx for making that music. He knows it wouldn't have happened without those other guys. So it's the fans who think that who are misguided.

Unless, of course, Tommy was more of a team player and could work WITH JY instead of always wanting to believe that his ideas were the only ones that 'really' mattered. Which, BTW, is also exactly what happened in Journey during ROR, and why Neal said he HATED Steve Perry.

Sterling - correct me, but I remember somewhere in your book where JY sent letters to Tommy via his lawyer in the '70s. How fun was that, eh?

Perry/DeYoung taking over: production, hiring/firing of band members, approving cover art and concepts, pushing ideas of what the writing should be like....all of this in spite of what other band members and management wanted. Those two have a LOT in common in both their attitudes, and the attitudes they inspired from their bandmates.

Styx was more democratic overall than that (especially if you read the '81 contract). Usually Chuck had a lot to do with the artwork. JY was more business savvy. Tommy was the "fan friendly" face of Styx. Dennis drove them musically in the studio for the most part. Everyone played a role. The reality with bands like Journey and Styx is they could have gone down the roads they did (Cornerstone, PT, Kilroy; Escape and Frontiers) where they had more massive success, or try to stay on their old paths and become dinosaurs and be out of the business sooner rather than later. Dennis talks about it in my interview in the part where he's talking about going to England in '78. Yes, they fired Dennis in '79. Fact. They took him back. Fact. When you start having success, it's much easier to stomach what many years later you later perceive to be bad.

Perry had Smith and Valory fired. Dennis didn't fire Tommy. So in that parallel, Journey has no real equivalent.

Yes, the thing with the lawyers is true, at least from what Tommy said (on the record) and his manager from that period confirmed having seen all of that. Not unlike the letters Dennis was getting in the years after the Styx settlement. I don't know if that's still going on or not.


Sterling

[Monker]

Dennis did not do it on his own despite what people want to believe.

Dennis may claim to do certain things (such as production), but he always credits everyone in Styx for making that music. He knows it wouldn't have happened without those other guys. So it's the fans who think that who are misguided.

If you read what you quoted you will see that I am saying that is what people believe, implying exactly what you stated.

Unless, of course, Tommy was more of a team player and could work WITH JY instead of always wanting to believe that his ideas were the only ones that 'really' mattered. Which, BTW, is also exactly what happened in Journey during ROR, and why Neal said he HATED Steve Perry.

Sterling - correct me, but I remember somewhere in your book where JY sent letters to Tommy via his lawyer in the '70s. How fun was that, eh?

So what. This has nothing to do with what I replied to (JY should be angry at Tommy for where his current position in Styx), or what I said above.

So, do think JY should be angry at Tommy, or not...because you arguing with me on this bit makes it sound like you think he should be.

Perry/DeYoung taking over: production, hiring/firing of band members, approving cover art and concepts, pushing ideas of what the writing should be like....all of this in spite of what other band members and management wanted. Those two have a LOT in common in both their attitudes, and the attitudes they inspired from their bandmates.

Styx was more democratic overall than that (especially if you read the '81 contract).

Oh, please, I jumbled Styx and Journey together in the quote above. Styx was democratic in theory but in the end Dennis ran the band. Even he said he forced Kilroy on the band. Perry ended up being in the same boat with Journey by the time ROR came around. Perry convinced the band to run with the ROR concept, and not continue with Herbie's concepts...which he had planned out from Infinity. Perry may have fired Smith and Valory, but the rest of the band went along with it.

Journey went along with Perry's BS for the same reasons that Styx went along with DeYoung's...He was the face of the band to both the fans and the label. He had the real power...if the rest of the band bailed, there would be no band, no $'s, no 10+ years of success and name recognition. By Kilroy and ROR, both bands were stuck with a monster controlling the band.

The reality with bands like Journey and Styx is they could have gone down the roads they did (Cornerstone, PT, Kilroy; Escape and Frontiers) where they had more massive success, or try to stay on their old paths and become dinosaurs

They became dinosaurs anyway because one man controlled the direction of the band, forcing the band to do things they didn't really want to do...and eventually causing the band to break up. No one person in a band should have as much power as Perry or DeYoung. It's a band, and you should be a team player...even if you are the face the public most recognizes or the face the label trusts to create hits.

they fired Dennis in '79. Fact. They took him back. Fact. When you start having success, it's much easier to stomach what many years later you later perceive to be bad.

Fact. Herbie wanted to fire Perry after Escape. Fact. Herbie knew Perry was becoming a pain in the ass and it would only get worse....and he was right. The exact same thing could be said about Dennis...it got WORSE when they let him back, not better.

Perry had Smith and Valory fired. Dennis didn't fire Tommy. So in that parallel, Journey has no real equivalent.

No, but I seem to remember posts here that said he was not too kind to JC...I remember a quote here that said after a show he told JC that was the worst performance he had ever seen in his life....and JC quit not too long after that. He didn't fire anybody, but it seems to me he also wasn't the easiest person to work with/for.

[froy]

"Monker"

they fired Dennis in '79. Fact. They took him back. Fact. When you start having success, it's much easier to stomach what many years later you later perceive to be bad.

Fact. Herbie wanted to fire Perry after Escape. Fact. Herbie knew Perry was becoming a pain in the ass and it would only get worse....and he was right. The exact same thing could be said about Dennis...it got WORSE when they let him back, not better.

Yea it got worse he only brought Paradise Theater to the table the biggest selling tour in the bands entire career.
Your an idiot Monker

[chickenbeef]

"Monker"

they fired Dennis in '79. Fact. They took him back. Fact. When you start having success, it's much easier to stomach what many years later you later perceive to be bad.

Fact. Herbie wanted to fire Perry after Escape. Fact. Herbie knew Perry was becoming a pain in the ass and it would only get worse....and he was right. The exact same thing could be said about Dennis...it got WORSE when they let him back, not better.

Yea it got worse he only brought Paradise Theater to the table the biggest selling tour in the bands entire career.
Your an idiot Monker

froy your BOB is calling

[Boomchild]

Journey went along with Perry's BS for the same reasons that Styx went along with DeYoung's...He was the face of the band to both the fans and the label. He had the real power...if the rest of the band bailed, there would be no band, no $'s, no 10+ years of success and name recognition. By Kilroy and ROR, both bands were stuck with a monster controlling the band.

So if you are correct about Styx, then the rest of the members of Styx could have let their decision to let DDY go back in '79 stand and move on. But they didn't. The rest of the band could have bailed putting an end to Styx, but they didn't. If that is the case then what came to be was just as much their fault as anyone else in the band. If this is a true presentation of the events then I do not feel sorry for them one bit. It would seem they chose the money over happiness.

It's a band, and you should be a team player...even if you are the face the public most recognizes or the face the label trusts to create hits.e

Your right and in a perfect world this would always happen but in reality it doesn't. I also think that teams sometimes need a leader and to me that is what DDY was.

No, but I seem to remember posts here that said he was not too kind to JC...I remember a quote here that said after a show he told JC that was the worst performance he had ever seen in his life....and JC quit not too long after that. He didn't fire anybody, but it seems to me he also wasn't the easiest person to work with/for

I'm sure that DDY could be tough to work with at times. I don't consider him a saint, I consider him a human being. As far as the situation with JC, it has been reported that JC was having issues that did affect how he was working with the band that may have built up to that moment. That's not to say that DDY handled it in the right way but JC may have brought some of it on himself.

[Monker]

Journey went along with Perry's BS for the same reasons that Styx went along with DeYoung's...He was the face of the band to both the fans and the label. He had the real power...if the rest of the band bailed, there would be no band, no $'s, no 10+ years of success and name recognition. By Kilroy and ROR, both bands were stuck with a monster controlling the band.

So if you are correct about Styx, then the rest of the members of Styx could have let their decision to let DDY go back in '79 stand and move on. But they didn't. The rest of the band could have bailed putting an end to Styx, but they didn't. If that is the case then what came to be was just as much their fault as anyone else in the band. If this is a true presentation of the events then I do not feel sorry for them one bit. It would seem they chose the money over happiness.

I don't think anybody should feel sorry for any of them. I also think most reasonable people would choose making hundreds of thousands/yr over an uncertain future...which was the choice when the fired Dennis. It obviously became a bit easier when that amount of money was not involved and they could still make a living on the road without him.

Your right and in a perfect world this would always happen but in reality it doesn't. I also think that teams sometimes need a leader and to me that is what DDY was.

There is a difference between a leader and a dictator. Kevin Chalfant once posted on his forum comparing Journey to the movie "Mutiny on the Bounty". There are two ways to look at that comparison:

1. A strong leader, Herbie Herbert, who knew the business and made the decisions that led the band to success...and when the 'mutiny' happened and he no longer was leading them, the band fell apart. 2. Herbie's tight control over the band and dictating to them how things were going to be caused the band to 'mutiny' against him...ousting him from the band he envisioned and formed with Neal and Gregg Rolie.

I'm sure you can see how #2 above applies to Styx/DDY.

I'm sure that DDY could be tough to work with at times. I don't consider him a saint, I consider him a human being. As far as the situation with JC, it has been reported that JC was having issues that did affect how he was working with the band that may have built up to that moment. That's not to say that DDY handled it in the right way but JC may have brought some of it on himself.

Point is: Perry firing Smith and Valory wasn't the best way to lead the band. Insulting other band members to the point where they no longer want to be in the band with you really isn't much better.

[Toph]

Journey went along with Perry's BS for the same reasons that Styx went along with DeYoung's...He was the face of the band to both the fans and the label. He had the real power...if the rest of the band bailed, there would be no band, no $'s, no 10+ years of success and name recognition. By Kilroy and ROR, both bands were stuck with a monster controlling the band.

So if you are correct about Styx, then the rest of the members of Styx could have let their decision to let DDY go back in '79 stand and move on. But they didn't. The rest of the band could have bailed putting an end to Styx, but they didn't. If that is the case then what came to be was just as much their fault as anyone else in the band. If this is a true presentation of the events then I do not feel sorry for them one bit. It would seem they chose the money over happiness.

I don't think anybody should feel sorry for any of them. I also think most reasonable people would choose making hundreds of thousands/yr over an uncertain future...which was the choice when the fired Dennis. It obviously became a bit easier when that amount of money was not involved and they could still make a living on the road without him.

Your right and in a perfect world this would always happen but in reality it doesn't. I also think that teams sometimes need a leader and to me that is what DDY was.

There is a difference between a leader and a dictator. Kevin Chalfant once posted on his forum comparing Journey to the movie "Mutiny on the Bounty". There are two ways to look at that comparison:

1. A strong leader, Herbie Herbert, who knew the business and made the decisions that led the band to success...and when the 'mutiny' happened and he no longer was leading them, the band fell apart. 2. Herbie's tight control over the band and dictating to them how things were going to be caused the band to 'mutiny' against him...ousting him from the band he envisioned and formed with Neal and Gregg Rolie.

I'm sure you can see how #2 above applies to Styx/DDY.

I'm sure that DDY could be tough to work with at times. I don't consider him a saint, I consider him a human being. As far as the situation with JC, it has been reported that JC was having issues that did affect how he was working with the band that may have built up to that moment. That's not to say that DDY handled it in the right way but JC may have brought some of it on himself.

Point is: Perry firing Smith and Valory wasn't the best way to lead the band. Insulting other band members to the point where they no longer want to be in the band with you really isn't much better.

You just make things up Monker, you're anti Perry and anti DeYoung bias show up loud and clear. When did Dennis ever insult the existing band members of Styx? Please show me that. If you are talking about his comments on Brave New Flop, then those were a) after he was out of the band, and b) completely justified. I put that piece of garbage in the other day and tried to give it a listen for the first time in at least 5 years and it is still sooooo bad. the production value, especially on the TS/JY songs is horrid. It is just a really bad, thrown together album. I would have said the same thing.

Dennis never tired to fire any member of Styx. He was the one who got fired. Not sure how you equate that to your comment that DDY like Perry tried to fire people in the band. It is simply not true.

[Monker]

You just make things up Monker, you're anti Perry and anti DeYoung bias show up loud and clear. When did Dennis ever insult the existing band members of Styx? Please show me that. If you are talking about his comments on Brave New Flop, then those were a) after he was out of the band, and b) completely justified. I put that piece of garbage in the other day and tried to give it a listen for the first time in at least 5 years and it is still sooooo bad. the production value, especially on the TS/JY songs is horrid. It is just a really bad, thrown together album. I would have said the same thing.

Dennis never tired to fire any member of Styx. He was the one who got fired. Not sure how you equate that to your comment that DDY like Perry tried to fire people in the band. It is simply not true.

Please go back to school and learn how to read.

I never said DDY fired anybody.

I already explained the JC/insult comment. I'm not going to explain it again to somebody without the ability to comprehend the English language.

I've always said BNW was a mediocre album so your lofty opinions of it mean very little to me.

[Boomchild]

I don't think anybody should feel sorry for any of them. I also think most reasonable people would choose making hundreds of thousands/yr over an uncertain future...which was the choice when the fired Dennis. It obviously became a bit easier when that amount of money was not involved and they could still make a living on the road without him.

Right, then they shouldn't spin the story as if they were held captive by DDY. Which is how they seem to present it. That is my problem with them. They seem to make it sound that they did not have any way of letting their votes count. Which of course is not true. Being the fact that JY was firing off letters from his lawyers to band mates and TS threatened multiple times to quit the band seems to discount that point. To me, "Dennis was a dictator" is overblown.

I'm sure that DDY could be tough to work with at times. I don't consider him a saint, I consider him a human being. As far as the situation with JC, it has been reported that JC was having issues that did affect how he was working with the band that may have built up to that moment. That's not to say that DDY handled it in the right way but JC may have brought some of it on himself.

Point is: Perry firing Smith and Valory wasn't the best way to lead the band. Insulting other band members to the point where they no longer want to be in the band with you really isn't much better.

As I said, I can't say that DDY handled it in the best way. But since we do not know what all surrounded what led up to that event, you can't put the blame totally on DDY either.

[Monker]

I don't think anybody should feel sorry for any of them. I also think most reasonable people would choose making hundreds of thousands/yr over an uncertain future...which was the choice when the fired Dennis. It obviously became a bit easier when that amount of money was not involved and they could still make a living on the road without him.

Right, then they shouldn't spin the story as if they were held captive by DDY.

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team, but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set. It is unreasonable to expect the band to walk away from Styx, or fire DDY, when their entire career hinged on Styx' success. DDY was the inflexible one after PT, not the rest of the band.

It is DDY fans like yourself who should stop spinning the tall tale that all they had to do was fire DDY earlier.

[froy]

"Monker"

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team,

Did Tommy work as part of a team when he was snorting coke in 84?
Was that a team effort? He is lucky he was not thrown out on his hick ass never to be let back in.

but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set.

They all followed the leader (Dennis) when things were going great and money was flying in I/E Paradise theater tour.
When Dennis gets sick and needs a few months to get healthy they spit on him and said see ya.
Great team there,

[Monker]

"Monker"

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team,

Did Tommy work as part of a team when he was snorting coke in 84?
Was that a team effort? He is lucky he was not thrown out on his hick ass never to be let back in.

but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set.

They all followed the leader (Dennis) when things were going great and money was flying in I/E Paradise theater tour.
When Dennis gets sick and needs a few months to get healthy they spit on him and said see ya.
Great team there,

Froy, you are so biased on the DeYoung side of the fence, you may as well be his conjoined twin.

I really don't care what you think, or what you post any longer...it's been the same garbage for 12 years.