KICK JY OUT OF STYX

[Rockwriter]

Here's a guessing game . . . can anyone think of any other songs that maybe Tommy and JY did not sing/play on? Or Dennis? I think there are others that have not come out publically. I think the guys were further apart a long time ago than we ever realized.

Well, it's no big secret anymore that BNW features a bunch of session musicians, semi-credited and otherwise. (Tom Dziallo, CJ Vanston, Tom Lily, Glen Burtnik, Hank Horton, and so forth)

My guess is that "Mr Roboto" doesn't feature much TS/JY, if any.

"Boat On The River" could very well be TS/DDY only, since by all accounts it was also a "Babe"-esque demo situation.

Lots of programmed percussion on KWH and EOTC -- I've heard that some of the actual kit playing is also a machine, though I'm not sure to what extent.

Those are some of the exact same examples I would cite. I think "Mr. Roboto" features harmonies that are all Dennis, at least to my ear, with the exception of JY on the vocoder as credited. I'm not even sure that the guitar chords on that song might not be Tom Dziallo. I've often wondered if Dennis did not utilize Dziallo on some tracks prior to DESERT MOON. That goes on all the time . . . I mean, probably half of the old Kiss records featured uncredited session players, same with Aerosmith.

I think it's safe to assume there's no JY on "Boat On The River". Furthermore, I don't think JY is on "First Time", at least not to my ear. That's another one where that sounds like a Wall of Dennis to me. I'm also not sure that Dennis is on "Eddie". To me those vocals sound like JY stacked up in triplicate ( the lowest part might be Dennis but I don't think so), and that synthesizer solo sounds like guitar synth that JY probably played. Could be that the guys worked separately on some songs for that album. Others clearly are more of a group effort.

What about "Music Time"? Tommy has said that he was not on the track, but Dennis says he was. I think both guitar solos are JY, but I can't quite decide if the highest vocal parts are Tommy or not.

For EOTC I think a lot of Burtnik's demo stuff used triggered drum samples that were mostly unaltered for the Styx record. I don't think John played on some of that stuff, and I'm not sure he's on a track like "Love At First Sight" either. To me that sounds like drum machines. He was already in a downhill slide at that point, the video from the tour plainly shows that he was not as powerful as he had once been.

Sterling

[Rockwriter]

Here's a guessing game . . . can anyone think of any other songs that maybe Tommy and JY did not sing/play on? Or Dennis? I think there are others that have not come out publically. I think the guys were further apart a long time ago than we ever realized.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

Well, you'd have to rule out most of Brave New World

"It Takes Love" counts IMHO since they only stripped out Glen's vox and added Tommy's in.

I forgot about that one. You're absolutely right, and the other really weird thing is that they left Glen's piano part, and that final high note is also Glen. So when you listen to that you're hearing a bastardization of multiple performances that were rendered years apart and then mixed together. Bizarre.

"Roboto" is an easy given - and that was started to be recorded in Japan at the end of the Paradise Theater tour by DDY in Japan.


I will contend that "Don't Let It End" is Tom Dziallo on the guitar solo. Compare it to the one on "Desert Moon" - same phrasing style and tone IMHO.

That's another one I have often wondered about. You're right, listen to Dziallo's phrasing on a song like "Unanswered Prayers" and then listen to "Don't Let It End" and it seems like the work of the same person.

"Homewrecker" is not a DDY keyboard solo. Too frantic. DDY always worked out his key solos. I say that's JY.

Right again in my opinion. I never thought that was Dennis on keys. To me that song always sounded like a leftover B-track from OUT ON A DAY PASS that they just stuck on a Styx record with maybe a few add-ons from the band.

I'm pretty sure "Boat on the River" was all done a la "Babe" with TS, CP, and JP and they added the accordian on at the end later. I say no JY on that.

Just a starter list from me.

Bonus question: which song on Cornerstone is rumored to once have a full guitar solo where there is not one now (or at least not guitar alone)?

Maybe "Why Me", but possibly "Love In The Midnight".

I hope all is well.

Sterling

[styxfansite]

What about "Music Time"? Tommy has said that he was not on the track, but Dennis says he was. I think both guitar solos are JY, but I can't quite decide if the highest vocal parts are Tommy or not.

Is this why in the music time video, Tommy doesn't show up until the very end waving an "S" flag.

Also I know it has been said many times, but on Brave New World, were all the songs done in two diffeent studios (Dennis's, and Tommy's), and then weaved together or did they do any of them together before DDY became ill. Some of the songs done by TS, and Jy you can hear some of DDY's vocal's in them, but on all of DDY's you almost can't hear anyone else, but maybe Tommy every now and then.

Thanks

[stabbim]

I think it's safe to assume there's no JY on "Boat On The River". Furthermore, I don't think JY is on "First Time", at least not to my ear. That's another one where that sounds like a Wall of Dennis to me. I'm also not sure that Dennis is on "Eddie". To me those vocals sound like JY stacked up in triplicate ( the lowest part might be Dennis but I don't think so), and that synthesizer solo sounds like guitar synth that JY probably played. Could be that the guys worked separately on some songs for that album. Others clearly are more of a group effort.

Since "Boat On The River" was said to be an augmented demo a la "Babe," I wouldn't be shocked to learn that the Panozzo's weren't on it either.

I do hear DDY in the "Eddie" backing vox (at least I think so) but I don't know about the keys. Read somewhere that it might be a guitar synth...was that technology viable enough in 1978-9 to produce such results?

What about "Music Time"? Tommy has said that he was not on the track, but Dennis says he was. I think both guitar solos are JY, but I can't quite decide if the highest vocal parts are Tommy or not.

Guitars are definitely JY. I assumed TS was not on it at all -- didn't know DDY said different. Interesting.

[stabbim]

Also I know it has been said many times, but on Brave New World, were all the songs done in two diffeent studios (Dennis's, and Tommy's), and then weaved together or did they do any of them together before DDY became ill. Some of the songs done by TS, and Jy you can hear some of DDY's vocal's in them, but on all of DDY's you almost can't hear anyone else, but maybe Tommy every now and then.

As far as I know, all the drum tracks were cut in Chicago before the battle lines were drawn. How much of the contributions from one camp to the other were made together in that early period vs. flown in later on, I have no idea...but there is a little cross-pollenation going on in some songs. Mostly backing vox, it seems.

[Ash]

This sounds like a lot of speculation and rumor mongering with really nothing to back it up. Just wanted to interject that.

[sadie65]

Wow has this topic veered. LOL. No surprise.

For me, I confess, I am no good at deciphering who played what. If the sum works, then I am cool with that. While I enjoy reading all these speculations, for me...doesn't change my enjoyment or disappointment in the songs either way. I wouldn't be surprised if different people were used in different ways for all of these.

I just wonder how JY was as a taxi driver

[Ash]

I hope he was a better taxi driver than he was musician. I mean - the guy dennis has playing for him now has infinitely more talent than JY could ever have.

[shaka]

The first Roland guitar synth came out in 1977 so the technology was there. However, I've played one of those and some of the models that followed later. I really doubt one of those was used to play the synth solo in Eddie. The biggest tip off is that the solo in Eddie would require a lot of bended notes. Guitar synths, at least in that era, couldn't track a string being bent or any type of fret hand vibrato. You were lucky if you could get the things to track a chord correctly.

Another comment regarding drum sounds on EOC.

Drum triggers (typically a piezo transducer attached to the head of an acoustic drum that interfaces with a midi drum module) have been available for acoustic drums for a long time. John could have easily played the parts on the EOC album on acoustic drums with triggers and came up with those sounds. It is also possible to record the drums acoustically and then replace the sounds with triggered electronic drums. This technique is used a lot to replace or fatten up crappy kick and snare sounds. Drum triggers, especially for the kick drum, are used in concerts quite a bit.

Eric

[bugsymalone]

OK, well, this SORT of kinda still relates to JY. On "Homewrecker," I always assumed it was Dennis on the keyboard solo simply because of the speed. Not many keyboardists could match DDY's speed. And on the EOTC concert footage I have seen, he played a mean keyboard break in "Homewrecker." Just sayin' ......

Bugsy

[yogi]

If all these other musicains were added on all of these different songs as everyone is stating, then why are they not given credit on the albums???

Styx gave credit for sax solos etc. I would think that Styx would give credit where it is due or they would open themselves up leagally.

[stabbim]

I would think that Styx would give credit where it is due or they would open themselves up leagally.

Outside musicians agree to remain uncredited up front, and sign contracts to that effect. Happens all the time.

[froy]

Now, as I've said a million times before, out of all of them, DDY needs Styx the least from a financial standpoint. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to do Styx, but he doesn't need to do it 200+ days a year on the road. I'm sorry, touring I'm sure can be fun, but when you're on the road that much - and I know a bit about it - after awhile, it's work.

If I remember right, wasn't this one of the reasons for Glen Leaving. Doing this many shows in a year,didn't leave much family time for him. I know there was other problems with the other members to, but the 200 shows was one of the reasons.

If they did at least 100 shows a year (maybe hitting every state once and some other places like canada, uk) it would be ok with me. If you have a big crowd at one of the shows, then add another date for it later at the end of the year.

It would be more like 35 shows every 2 or 3 years with DDY.

He does more shows than THE WHO
Less is more no doubt about it

[StyxCollector]

This sounds like a lot of speculation and rumor mongering with really nothing to back it up. Just wanted to interject that.

Sadly, some of it isn't ...

[StyxCollector]

If all these other musicains were added on all of these different songs as everyone is stating, then why are they not given credit on the albums???

Styx gave credit for sax solos etc. I would think that Styx would give credit where it is due or they would open themselves up leagally.

Not the way the music industry works. Styx would not be the first, nor will they be the last, to employ "ghost" musicians.

[StyxCollector]

The first Roland guitar synth came out in 1977 so the technology was there. However, I've played one of those and some of the models that followed later. I really doubt one of those was used to play the synth solo in Eddie. The biggest tip off is that the solo in Eddie would require a lot of bended notes. Guitar synths, at least in that era, couldn't track a string being bent or any type of fret hand vibrato. You were lucky if you could get the things to track a chord correctly.

It is guitar synth. I've used a circa 1979 Roland guitar synth in a Les Paul body and you could do bends. Plus you can also do other things to bend that note up via synthesis. But it's definitely not a normal synth.

[StyxCollector]

Also I know it has been said many times, but on Brave New World, were all the songs done in two diffeent studios (Dennis's, and Tommy's), and then weaved together or did they do any of them together before DDY became ill. Some of the songs done by TS, and Jy you can hear some of DDY's vocal's in them, but on all of DDY's you almost can't hear anyone else, but maybe Tommy every now and then.

As far as I know, all the drum tracks were cut in Chicago before the battle lines were drawn. How much of the contributions from one camp to the other were made together in that early period vs. flown in later on, I have no idea...but there is a little cross-pollenation going on in some songs. Mostly backing vox, it seems.

Yeah. Todd cut all the drum tracks, and arguably, he's the only member on all of the tracks. Everything else is up for grabs.

I can say this: despite his credit, I don't think Chuck plays on BNW at all. His bass playing style and sound isn't there.

[StyxCollector]

What about "Music Time"? Tommy has said that he was not on the track, but Dennis says he was. I think both guitar solos are JY, but I can't quite decide if the highest vocal parts are Tommy or not.

Guitars are definitely JY. I assumed TS was not on it at all -- didn't know DDY said different. Interesting.

Go read my interviews with DDY & TS on my site. They conflict on this point.

[rajah2165]

One of the things I have read, and heard Dennis say, is that the vocals on "Babe" are all him. They tried to record it, I believe, with others participating in the harmonies, but went back to the original Dennis recorded and only added Tommy's guitar solo to the final track.

From what I understand, JY had no part at all in that song, other than when it was played on tour.

Bugsy

That's correct. Dennis, John and Chuck did the demo, with Dennis and Gary Loizzo singing all the backgrounds. That demo is the record we all know with just minor changes. When Styx tried to re-record it, they wound up feeling that the demo was better. JY and Tommy probably didn't want to sing on the track, in my opinion. Whatever the reason, Dennis replaced Gary's harmonies with himself singing all the parts, and although he did a really amazing imitation of the classic Styx harmonies, you can hear that it's all him if you listen closely. Tommy's solo and a couple of drum fills are the only adds as far as I know.

Here's a guessing game . . . can anyone think of any other songs that maybe Tommy and JY did not sing/play on? Or Dennis? I think there are others that have not come out publically. I think the guys were further apart a long time ago than we ever realized.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

Here is my shot -

Man In the Wildernness - no DDY backing vocals
Nothing Ever Goes As Planned - no JY

The entire Kilroy album...
I would argue that Kilroy was the first DDY solo album with bit parts from JY and Tommy. I think DDY added much to the entire second side - Just Get Through This Night, Double Life, Don't Let It End (reprise), Haven't We Been Here Before (Tommy's vocals and Guitar part are his only contributions). Kilroy had tons of drum solos. I think much of that album was DDY going in and recreating some stuff that JY and Tommy had done and making it more techno sounding.

Thoughts?

[shaka]

The first Roland guitar synth came out in 1977 so the technology was there. However, I've played one of those and some of the models that followed later. I really doubt one of those was used to play the synth solo in Eddie. The biggest tip off is that the solo in Eddie would require a lot of bended notes. Guitar synths, at least in that era, couldn't track a string being bent or any type of fret hand vibrato. You were lucky if you could get the things to track a chord correctly.

It is guitar synth. I've used a circa 1979 Roland guitar synth in a Les Paul body and you could do bends. Plus you can also do other things to bend that note up via synthesis. But it's definitely not a normal synth.

We played the same synth. The guitar was a Les Paul looking thing that was actually built by Ibanez. While the thing theoretically could do bends it didn't do them at all well, at least on the two examples I played. (one of them was a few years ago). Also, it did not use a MIDI interface so using a midi command in a sequencer wouldn't be possible. The next version which was quite the space aged looking guitar interfaced via midi and did a much better job on bends. I still say it probably wasn't a guitar synth as that solo could easily be done on the keyboards of the time.

I guess one of us is going to have to ask someone who's in the know. lol Anyone know JY's email address? hahaha

Eric

[Ash]

This sounds like a lot of speculation and rumor mongering with really nothing to back it up. Just wanted to interject that.

Sadly, some of it isn't ...

Unless you're going to offer more proof than "this sounds like so and so" then yes - it is purely speculation. Unless you have some in the band saying it. And if that is the case, then post it. Until that time - speculation is exactly what this is.

[stabbim]

I can say this: despite his credit, I don't think Chuck plays on BNW at all. His bass playing style and sound isn't there.

And 1998-9 was the time when he was reportedly at his lowest ebb, healthwise, so...