The response should be...

[Boomchild]

I was hoping topher would have answered the question.
In his eyes JY and Tommy are nothing without Dennis,
so why even bring them into the conversation.
I am comparing Dennis to Styx here.
If Dennis was responsible for all the hits,ideas and production and everything related to their success,
how come his solo albums and musicals did not fare as well as Styx.??

Don't confuse my viewpoints with others. As I said in my reply it was the collaboration of all three of them that made Styx popular. I am not one to just give ALL the credit to Dennis. He and Tommy were the driving force to a larger degree. I brought the others into the conversation as comparison. Because it's an exaggeration to paint DDY's solo career as a joke and a complete failure. Especially, when you compare it to some of the others. It would be like me saying that since JY's attempt as a solo artist was a complete failure then he must have done nothing to contribute to the success of Styx. That is not the case of course.

[masque]

Toph.

I understand what you are saying about the Styx brand vs. Dennis solo.
But I do not really agree.
Styx was one of the biggest bands in US between 77-82.Everybody who liked Styx knew all their names.
They were in the music magazines,interviews, photos.
In the papers when they traveled through your town.
Babe was their #1 hit.Everybody in the US must have heard that song weather they liked to or not.Everybody who liked the song would know Dennis was the singer because of his 'unique ' voice.
He sang all their hits.
So with him as the architect,the writer of the hits,the producer and the idea man,
why couldn't he come up with something equally as successful as a solo artist (or at least close), as Styx.????

Christ ,look at Phil Collins.I would have thought that Dennis could have been at least half as successful with all that supposed brilliance.

What I am trying to say here is...

I think the other guys in Styx, had a lot more to do with their all around
success ,than you are willing to admit to ?
Hence the not very successful solo Dennis albums in comparison.

Could that be ?

Genesis is/was a much bigger band than Styx. Plus Phil Collins' music is much more "easy listening" than what Dennis DeYoung brings to the table. He's also able to appeal to a wider fan base due to varying styles and lyrical themes.

genesis perhaps had more world wide appeal at that point (around 1982)....but not in america, it wasnt even close, styx was far more popular than genesis from 77-82 in america.......but it goes back to my point that that pretty much all of the "cooperate rock" bands from the 70's were starting to see a decline in popularity in the mid 80's........the thing that helped phil collins and genesis during that time was that phil managed to create a different kind of sound for them that helped them create a new appeal while still holding onto a good chunk of their long time fans (not without some bithcing mind you), but they found a new way to appeal and it didnt sound like "dated 70's rock" at a time when everything was changing.

dennis and tommy on the other hand sort of had solo careers that appeared to have songs that did nothing to reintroduce them to the public.....their songs were mostly weaker versions of styx songs from cornerstone thru kilroy, with a few obvious exceptions.

sting was able to do the same thing phil collins did....he maintained his "stingness" but his solo material became quite different than the material from the police or certainly the earlier police records.....

same thing with peter gabriel.....gabriel had modest success as a solo artist basically sounding alot like you would expect gabriel to sound when left genesis....it wasnt until he found a way to appeal to both his long time fans and a whole new group of fans that had not been with him before (think the "So" album) that had he had massive success.

now on the other hand let's talk steve perry and lou gramm.....two of the most well known voices in rock history......with two bands at least as popular as styx and in reality probably much more popular than styx......both of those guys had monster solo hits on their first solo albums that sounded EXACTLY like what they were doing in their bands before they left, just like DDY did with desert moon which sounded like a styx song......but guess what, after those first albums both of those guys faded into solo artist obscurity just like DDY did and tommy did and on and on and on.

[masque]

Toph.

I understand what you are saying about the Styx brand vs. Dennis solo.
But I do not really agree.
Styx was one of the biggest bands in US between 77-82.Everybody who liked Styx knew all their names.
They were in the music magazines,interviews, photos.
In the papers when they traveled through your town.
Babe was their #1 hit.Everybody in the US must have heard that song weather they liked to or not.Everybody who liked the song would know Dennis was the singer because of his 'unique ' voice.
He sang all their hits.
So with him as the architect,the writer of the hits,the producer and the idea man,
why couldn't he come up with something equally as successful as a solo artist (or at least close), as Styx.????

Christ ,look at Phil Collins.I would have thought that Dennis could have been at least half as successful with all that supposed brilliance.

What I am trying to say here is...

I think the other guys in Styx, had a lot more to do with their all around
success ,than you are willing to admit to ?
Hence the not very successful solo Dennis albums in comparison.

Could that be ?

Genesis is/was a much bigger band than Styx. Plus Phil Collins' music is much more "easy listening" than what Dennis DeYoung brings to the table. He's also able to appeal to a wider fan base due to varying styles and lyrical themes.

genesis perhaps had more world wide appeal at that point (around 1982)....but not in america, it wasnt even close, styx was far more popular than genesis from 77-82 in america.......but it goes back to my point that that pretty much all of the "cooperate rock" bands from the 70's were starting to see a decline in popularity in the mid 80's........the thing that helped phil collins and genesis during that time was that phil managed to create a different kind of sound for them that helped them create a new appeal while still holding onto a good chunk of their long time fans (not without some bithcing mind you), but they found a new way to appeal and it didnt sound like "dated 70's rock" at a time when everything was changing. the way DDY tried to evolve the styx sound was not as accepted as what phil did with genesis.

dennis and tommy on the other hand sort of had solo careers that appeared to have songs that did nothing to reintroduce them to the public.....their songs were mostly weaker versions of styx songs from cornerstone thru kilroy, with a few obvious exceptions.

sting was able to do the same thing phil collins did....he maintained his "stingness" but his solo material became quite different than the material from the police or certainly the earlier police records.....

same thing with peter gabriel.....gabriel had modest success as a solo artist basically sounding alot like you would expect gabriel to sound when left genesis....it wasnt until he found a way to appeal to both his long time fans and a whole new group of fans that had not been with him before (think the "So" album) that had he had massive success.

now on the other hand let's talk steve perry and lou gramm.....two of the most well known voices in rock history......with two bands at least as popular as styx and in reality probably much more popular than styx......both of those guys had monster solo hits on their first solo albums that sounded EXACTLY like what they were doing in their bands before they left, just like DDY did with desert moon which sounded like a styx song......but guess what, after those first albums both of those guys faded into solo artist obscurity just like DDY did and tommy did and on and on and on because they couldnt find a way to change in a way to maintain their popularity and appeal.

[gr8dane]

I was hoping topher would have answered the question.
In his eyes JY and Tommy are nothing without Dennis,
so why even bring them into the conversation.
I am comparing Dennis to Styx here.
If Dennis was responsible for all the hits,ideas and production and everything related to their success,
how come his solo albums and musicals did not fare as well as Styx.??

Don't confuse my viewpoints with others. As I said in my reply it was the collaboration of all three of them that made Styx popular. I am not one to just give ALL the credit to Dennis. He and Tommy were the driving force to a larger degree. I brought the others into the conversation as comparison. Because it's an exaggeration to paint DDY's solo career as a joke and a complete failure. Especially, when you compare it to some of the others. It would be like me saying that since JY's attempt as a solo artist was a complete failure then he must have done nothing to contribute to the success of Styx. That is not the case of course.

I didn't.
As I said ,'I was hoping topher would have answered that question',
and in his eyes (as in tophers).
The original question was aimed at him.You just happened to answer it.

But you are right.I did call DDY's solo career a joke (except his last album),but compared to his work with Styx.
I was probably not too clear on that.
Can't speak of JY's and Tommy's as I have never heard their solo albums.

[masque]

I was hoping topher would have answered the question.
In his eyes JY and Tommy are nothing without Dennis,
so why even bring them into the conversation.
I am comparing Dennis to Styx here.
If Dennis was responsible for all the hits,ideas and production and everything related to their success,
how come his solo albums and musicals did not fare as well as Styx.??

Don't confuse my viewpoints with others. As I said in my reply it was the collaboration of all three of them that made Styx popular. I am not one to just give ALL the credit to Dennis. He and Tommy were the driving force to a larger degree. I brought the others into the conversation as comparison. Because it's an exaggeration to paint DDY's solo career as a joke and a complete failure. Especially, when you compare it to some of the others. It would be like me saying that since JY's attempt as a solo artist was a complete failure then he must have done nothing to contribute to the success of Styx. That is not the case of course.

I didn't.
As I said ,'I was hoping topher would have answered that question',
and in his eyes (as in tophers).
The original question was aimed at him.You just happened to answer it.

But you are right.I did call DDY's solo career a joke (except his last album),but compared to his work with Styx.
I was probably not too clear on that.
Can't speak of JY's and Tommy's as I have never heard their solo albums.

their solo careers can be summed up by saying that the collective output of all of it would have made two more good styx albums if produced to sound like styx (meaning a bit heavier) with the song distribution of those imaginary styx albums being very similar to how it was usually distributed on an official styx album.

their solo careers clearly showed that sharing the songwriting duties and only having to produce 2-3 album quality songs per release with JY doing his usual 1 took a huge load off of them....because when they each had to do all the writing on their own the overall quality of their product was much weaker and that's not a slam, it makes sense....but it was also a reality.

[Toph]

I was hoping topher would have answered the question.
In his eyes JY and Tommy are nothing without Dennis,
so why even bring them into the conversation.
I am comparing Dennis to Styx here.
If Dennis was responsible for all the hits,ideas and production and everything related to their success,
how come his solo albums and musicals did not fare as well as Styx.??

Don't confuse my viewpoints with others. As I said in my reply it was the collaboration of all three of them that made Styx popular. I am not one to just give ALL the credit to Dennis. He and Tommy were the driving force to a larger degree. I brought the others into the conversation as comparison. Because it's an exaggeration to paint DDY's solo career as a joke and a complete failure. Especially, when you compare it to some of the others. It would be like me saying that since JY's attempt as a solo artist was a complete failure then he must have done nothing to contribute to the success of Styx. That is not the case of course.

I didn't.
As I said ,'I was hoping topher would have answered that question',
and in his eyes (as in tophers).
The original question was aimed at him.You just happened to answer it.

But you are right.I did call DDY's solo career a joke (except his last album),but compared to his work with Styx.
I was probably not too clear on that.
Can't speak of JY's and Tommy's as I have never heard their solo albums.

Gr8t, love how you play the role of instigator and try to use it to prove some point. If you look at the thread, you were the one that decided to go negative with the bashing of DDY. I was merely responding to your idiocy.

You said, .
Dennis was stupid enough to get himself fired not once but twice.
Seeing him on Behind the music, going on with self importance,about Styx not playing without him.
Todd's description of the way Dennis was treating Tommy,on page 294 in The Grand Delusion.
Dennis' phone call to a radio station in Montreal,doing the 'Do you know who I am' bit and singing a bit to make sure the DJ knew who he was dealing with.
So after what Chuck,Tommy and JY had to endure ,I can't blame them for feeling insulted ,and not want Dennis in the band with them.
So three cheers to the boys for standing up for themselves,and carrying on the way feel is the best for them.

So, if you're going to go off in an extremist sort of way, I'll respond in an extremist way back to you. Do I think Tommy was beneficial to Styx? I have never said that he wasn't beneficial to Styx. He did contribute and has some good songs. I've never said otherwise. What I don't like is the revisionist history that he and JY peddle that implies that DDY was a minor player in the band. Now, JY? I think Styx would have been just as fine and just as successful without JY as with JY. He's an average guitarist, below average vocalist, but a great business guy. Fine, they would have hired an extra accountant, marketer, and lawyer and been just as fine.

[Toph]

I was hoping topher would have answered the question.
In his eyes JY and Tommy are nothing without Dennis,
so why even bring them into the conversation.
I am comparing Dennis to Styx here.
If Dennis was responsible for all the hits,ideas and production and everything related to their success,
how come his solo albums and musicals did not fare as well as Styx.??

Don't confuse my viewpoints with others. As I said in my reply it was the collaboration of all three of them that made Styx popular. I am not one to just give ALL the credit to Dennis. He and Tommy were the driving force to a larger degree. I brought the others into the conversation as comparison. Because it's an exaggeration to paint DDY's solo career as a joke and a complete failure. Especially, when you compare it to some of the others. It would be like me saying that since JY's attempt as a solo artist was a complete failure then he must have done nothing to contribute to the success of Styx. That is not the case of course.

I didn't.
As I said ,'I was hoping topher would have answered that question',
and in his eyes (as in tophers).
The original question was aimed at him.You just happened to answer it.

But you are right.I did call DDY's solo career a joke (except his last album),but compared to his work with Styx.
I was probably not too clear on that.
Can't speak of JY's and Tommy's as I have never heard their solo albums.

Never heard their solo albums? Really? Well, here's an example of one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgg529xZPII

[pinkfloyd1973]

Your bias is showing

So ?
Not really that unusual around here.
Bias or not,I don't think there is anything wrong with that question.

If according to toph,Tommy and JY and the rest were only riding the coat tails of all Dennis,
why couldn't Dennis pull it off solo ?
Straight forward question .

Sure I am not too keen on Dennis,but I realize he is responsible for a lot,
but not all.
From Crystal Ball and on ,I would say that Dennis is 50 % Styx,Tommy 35 and JY 15 in the sound of Styx department.
That's a hell of a lot more flexible,in my bias,
than what goes on in toph's bias where it's Dennis 95% and Tommy 5 and JY -100%.(maybe I am too generous to Tommy here).

But maybe you think Dennis is all also ?

No, i'm about 60%-40% in favor of Dennis........The way I look at it, you and Toph are the extremes on each side and like to pick fights with each other. I would say Dennis and Tommy's solo careers after the initial break up of Styx was about the same, so it begs the question of why Tommy's career wasn't as successful either

[masque]

hey while we're in the mood to provide links to embarrassing solo songs....check out this winner!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KManyESMcW8

[Everett]

The "arguments" in here are really fun to read

[gr8dane]

I am over wishing for it too. It would be nice for them just to put aside their differences and have Tommy and JY acknowledge what be did for the band. Maybe introduce him for a guest spot like they do Chuck. Man Dennis singing with Gowen on keyboards. Just a song or two. A full on reunion is prob out of the card's. But come on guys, with everything going on in this world why can you put down the petty crap and just acknowledge the music you made together. Think of your fans!!!!!!!

To me having DDY back in the band would be like an insult to him. Based on how they treated him when the split came about and some of the other members comments about him since the split. It's too bad they couldn't have just used the old adage of "if you don't have something good to say about someone, then it's better to say nothing at all". The one thing I admire about DDY is that he through the whole thing he has put a emphasis on the positive things about what came of them working together.

You almost had me there.
As I was almost choking with emotions,reading about Styx' treatment of Dennis,I thankfully remembered some important things.
Dennis was stupid enough to get himself fired not once but twice.
Seeing him on Behind the music, going on with self importance,about Styx not playing without him.
Todd's description of the way Dennis was treating Tommy,on page 294 in The Grand Delusion.
Dennis' phone call to a radio station in Montreal,doing the 'Do you know who I am' bit and singing a bit to make sure the DJ knew who he was dealing with.
So after what Chuck,Tommy and JY had to endure ,I can't blame them for feeling insulted ,and not want Dennis in the band with them.
So three cheers to the boys for standing up for themselves,and carrying on the way feel is the best for them.

Close,but no cigar toph.
I was responding to this one,by boomer.
Insult to Dennis,and how they treated him yadda yadda .

[gr8dane]

Your bias is showing

So ?
Not really that unusual around here.
Bias or not,I don't think there is anything wrong with that question.

If according to toph,Tommy and JY and the rest were only riding the coat tails of all Dennis,
why couldn't Dennis pull it off solo ?
Straight forward question .

Sure I am not too keen on Dennis,but I realize he is responsible for a lot,
but not all.
From Crystal Ball and on ,I would say that Dennis is 50 % Styx,Tommy 35 and JY 15 in the sound of Styx department.
That's a hell of a lot more flexible,in my bias,
than what goes on in toph's bias where it's Dennis 95% and Tommy 5 and JY -100%.(maybe I am too generous to Tommy here).

But maybe you think Dennis is all also ?

No, i'm about 60%-40% in favor of Dennis........The way I look at it, you and Toph are the extremes on each side and like to pick fights with each other. I would say Dennis and Tommy's solo careers after the initial break up of Styx was about the same, so it begs the question of why Tommy's career wasn't as successful either

Guess it does get a bit silly or extreme every now and again.

[gr8dane]

hey while we're in the mood to provide links to embarrassing solo songs....check out this winner!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KManyESMcW8

Just thought about that one earlier today,and it is a bad one indeed.

And thanks for the link to TS song toph.Quite lightweight and bland.

[masque]

yeh dennis and tommy both had some real clunkers on their solo albums at times......not alot but a few that were terrible.

while toph posted "true confessions" which is bad it's not nearly as bad as tommy's "friendly advice"....holy shit have never been able to listen to steaming turd ever.

but i think my least favorite dennis tune is "boys will be boys" ...i would have to go back and listen to his stuff to think of some of the others.

now poor ole JY.....and I am sure toph will be surprised to hear me say this since I am such a huge JY fan, but Jy's solo stuff was horrible from top to bottom......."chain me down" from city slicker and the remake of "young man" on his out on a day pass albums were the only two songs I remember that didnt want to make me vomit.....lol

now the "raised by wolves" album of the "JY group" was fantastic, but JY had little to do with the writing of that album.

overall, it's just a big ole confirmation that those three were always much better together than apart.

[FormerDJMike]

I don't think I've ever played What If all the way thru. I loved This Is Not A Test and Jealousy but the rest I just could not sit thru. I still enjoy most of the cuts on Desert Moon and many from Girls W Guns. Loved Back To The World when it came out but don't think I could sit thru it now. I also enjoyed Day Pass when it came out (on WHITE vinyl) and would love to hear a Styx version of "Love Me Tonight". Dr. On Call was pretty good too.... RBW was probably the best of all the solo albums proving once and for all the guys work better in a band setting and not a solo setting. Probably my favorite of the "solo" albums I can still get into that one today. Very diverse.

[FormerDJMike]

This song was also really good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ2yRdF17o8

[Toph]

Best solo songs (80s solo careers)

DDY
Desert Moon
Heroes
Darlin
Gravity (if Styxafied)
This is Time
Black wall
Harry's hands
Beneath moon
What a way to go

TS
Girls
School
Kiss me
What if
Reach bottle
Nature of beast
Outsider
No such thing
Somewhere in the night

Put in 2 JYs and you have 2 ten song Styx albums of songs to make thru the 80s. Release one in 85 and the follow up in 88 and the train keeps a Rollin.

[Archetype]

A Styxified version of Desert Moon with the big harmonies and stuff would have been huge.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Best solo songs (80s solo careers)

DDY
Desert Moon
Heroes
Darlin
Gravity (if Styxafied)
This is Time
Black wall
Harry's hands
Beneath moon
What a way to go

TS
Girls
School
Kiss me
What if
Reach bottle
Nature of beast
Outsider
No such thing
Somewhere in the night

Put in 2 JYs and you have 2 ten song Styx albums of songs to make thru the 80s. Release one in 85 and the follow up in 88 and the train keeps a Rollin.

Throw in Unanswered Prayers as well

[Toph]

Best solo songs (80s solo careers)

DDY
Desert Moon
Heroes
Darlin
Gravity (if Styxafied)
This is Time
Black wall
Harry's hands
Beneath moon
What a way to go

TS
Girls
School
Kiss me
What if
Reach bottle
Nature of beast
Outsider
No such thing
Somewhere in the night

Put in 2 JYs and you have 2 ten song Styx albums of songs to make thru the 80s. Release one in 85 and the follow up in 88 and the train keeps a Rollin.

Yes! Forgot about that one. Love the piano solo at the end



Throw in Unanswered Prayers as well

[masque]

Best solo songs (80s solo careers)

DDY
Desert Moon
Heroes
Darlin
Gravity (if Styxafied)
This is Time
Black wall
Harry's hands
Beneath moon
What a way to go

TS
Girls
School
Kiss me
What if
Reach bottle
Nature of beast
Outsider
No such thing
Somewhere in the night

Put in 2 JYs and you have 2 ten song Styx albums of songs to make thru the 80s. Release one in 85 and the follow up in 88 and the train keeps a Rollin.

not a bad list toph, but the train would have been slowing down like it did for others similar to styx.....all those bands had hits but they all were losing popularity.....reo, journey, foreigner all became watered down versions of their past greatness as time went on.......so I do think styx would have been able to carry on with those songs as "styx" and it certainly would have brought them more success than it did as solo releases.

[Archetype]

How would Edge of the Century have fared if it was released in 1986-1987?

[Toph]

How would Edge of the Century have fared if it was released in 1986-1987?

\
Show Me Would have done just as well or maybe gone to #1
The Burtnik Hair Band release (LITR, EOTC, or World Tonite) would have hit it out of the park - top 10 smash
Love At First Sight would have probably gone top 10.
Followed up with a 4th single - AIADW which also would have had chart potential.

Interesting to see if Styx would have gone down the hair band path had Edge been released with those Glen songs on it and done well. May have been a third chapter to their career - Prog/Artistic Rock; Pop Rock; Hair Band?

[Archetype]

I'd be willing to bet that Styx would still be the EOTC lineup today if that album was released a few years earlier.

[Baron Von Bielski]

The "arguments" in here are really fun to read

I think they're way old. Arguments for the sake of arguments.

[Toph]

I'd be willing to bet that Styx would still be the EOTC lineup today if that album was released a few years earlier.

IF JY and Dennis could have gotten along (which I'm doubting), they might have had a second career bump (ala Aerosmith) had they released Edge in 86-87. However, I am betting Dennis wouldn't have gone for the hair band image or sound while JY and Glen would have embraced it, thus leading to musical differences - late 80s style.

[Monker]

How would Edge of the Century have fared if it was released in 1986-1987?

\
Show Me Would have done just as well or maybe gone to #1
The Burtnik Hair Band release (LITR, EOTC, or World Tonite) would have hit it out of the park - top 10 smash
Love At First Sight would have probably gone top 10.
Followed up with a 4th single - AIADW which also would have had chart potential.

Interesting to see if Styx would have gone down the hair band path had Edge been released with those Glen songs on it and done well. May have been a third chapter to their career - Prog/Artistic Rock; Pop Rock; Hair Band?

and DDY's hair would have greyed later, and Damn Yankees would have stayed together longer, and the reunion with Tommy would have never happened, and Styx would have recorded the soundtrack to Hunchback, and...

it's easy to make shit up when you are rewriting history, isn't it?

EotC was an average album with average sales with a hit single that happened to be promoted by the first Iraq war. It's just as easy to say EotC may have been DOA if it were released in the 85--88 timeframe.

The real truth here is if EotC were a stellar album like Grand Illusion, it wouldn't matter when it was released - there wouldn't be any debate about it's success.

Also, Glen wasn't exactly a "hair band" kinda dude. Don't know why he had that get up in Styx...looked totally uncomfortable to me. When I listened to those early solo albums, they gave me more of a Springsteen sorta vibe. Working with Jan Hammer isn't exactly 'hair band' either...at least not on the Schon & Hammer albums. Also, his writing on Neal's Late Nite was not what I would call "hair band".

[Archetype]

How would Edge of the Century have fared if it was released in 1986-1987?

\
Show Me Would have done just as well or maybe gone to #1
The Burtnik Hair Band release (LITR, EOTC, or World Tonite) would have hit it out of the park - top 10 smash
Love At First Sight would have probably gone top 10.
Followed up with a 4th single - AIADW which also would have had chart potential.

Interesting to see if Styx would have gone down the hair band path had Edge been released with those Glen songs on it and done well. May have been a third chapter to their career - Prog/Artistic Rock; Pop Rock; Hair Band?

The real truth here is if EotC were a stellar album like Grand Illusion, it wouldn't matter when it was released - there wouldn't be any debate about it's success.

There are lots of stellar albums that don't even crack the top 100...