I can't make this up

[Monker]

The DeYoungians, as well as the bathwater Drinkers have all made comments and assumptions that were out of line, way out of line.

There are two, maybe three, bathtubs to drink from. The difference is that one has a lot more gray hairs in it.

And, when Dennis used that phrase and insulted THE FANS, he lost most of my respect. Those fans who drink Tommy's bathwater also put money in HIS pocket for years....why should they continue to support an artist who insults them in interviews?

[Monker]

I reseve the right to call JY a jerk when he spouts off like one in public.

And, when Dennis spouts off in interviews and calls 'those two guys' in Styx liars, are you going to call HIM a jerk? Are you and any others who critique JY going to say that Dennis should just not answer such questions and get over it already? Or, are you just going to sit on your typing hands and ignore it? Or, are you going to be a hypocrite and give Dennis a thumbs up for acting VERY much the same as the devlish JY?

[Monker]

By the way Adam, do you any Styx news articles, interviews, concert reviews or anything to share with us?

I don't get this either.

Why do intevrview, articles, reviews and such because some kinda criteria for posting to a fan forumf? I believe these are fan forums for discussion of whatever the topic is. They are not 'informational exchange forums. Not that posting such things is not welcome and appreciated...But, a person should not be valued less because they do not bring such things.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Delete........................

[sadie65]

The DeYoungians, as well as the bathwater Drinkers have all made comments and assumptions that were out of line, way out of line.

There are two, maybe three, bathtubs to drink from. The difference is that one has a lot more gray hairs in it.

And, when Dennis used that phrase and insulted THE FANS, he lost most of my respect. Those fans who drink Tommy's bathwater also put money in HIS pocket for years....why should they continue to support an artist who insults them in interviews?

Because it's perception. Youre views that as an insult,. fair enough.

As for those gray hairs, I'm pretty sure that all those bathtubs have those gray hairs..of course they mighted be tinted or dyed just a little.

[sadie65]

I reseve the right to call JY a jerk when he spouts off like one in public.

And, when Dennis spouts off in interviews and calls 'those two guys' in Styx liars, are you going to call HIM a jerk? Are you and any others who critique JY going to say that Dennis should just not answer such questions and get over it already? Or, are you just going to sit on your typing hands and ignore it? Or, are you going to be a hypocrite and give Dennis a thumbs up for acting VERY much the same as the devlish JY?

Oh please. Dennis has not acted the same as JY in interviews. They ALL lied when it served their purpose, Dennis included. Considering I just heard the man today do an interview, I can tell you, he was a lot more complimentary and respectful to his former bandmates than JY was. And should Dennis decide to behave the way JY has up until recently, you bet I would say he was out of line.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Delete.........

Forget it.

[sadie65]

I'll speak for myself. I sincerely feel that most here quite often do their very best to post their views. On occasion, some here, on either "side' of the fence take umbrage at what is posted. Sometimes things posted are meant to be inflammatory. I'd be no exception.

While I don't always agree with what is said, I do respect everyone here, even if, at times, I don't seem to show that. If that's the case, my apologies.

Bottom line, it is the music these men, all of them, made that brought us here. And I think that is great testimony to them, that after all these years, they have fans who are just as passionate about them now, as they were back then.

Now, let's celebrate these men at their respective Toad Suck Daze, Airport shows, and wherever else they decide to put on a show. Cuz sooner than any of us would like, they won't be doing that.

Peace

[bugsymalone]

And should Dennis decide to behave the way JY has up until recently, you bet I would say he was out of line.

As would I. I am waiting for him to do so, however. So far, in public, Dennis has certainly been very restrained.

Bugsy

[Zan]

And should Dennis decide to behave the way JY has up until recently, you bet I would say he was out of line.

As would I. I am waiting for him to do so, however. So far, in public, Dennis has certainly been very restrained.

By "so far," you mean in the last year or two, right? Because I would qualify many things he has said over the last several years to be as bad if not worse (including calling a local radio station asking fans to boycott a Styx show in 2000). And I have yet to see JY or Tommy publically insult their own fan base. I can't say the same for Mr DeYoung.

[classicstyxfan]

By "so far," you mean in the last year or two, right? Because I would qualify many things he has said over the last several years to be as bad if not worse (including calling a local radio station asking fans to boycott a Styx show in 2000). And I have yet to see JY or Tommy publically insult their own fan base. I can't say the same for Mr DeYoung.
_________________
-Zan


Zan, I wasn't paying attention as much in 2000 as I am today I had some other things going on that year which I had to concentrate on.

I am very curious about the "boycott call" this was the time period in which DDY was interested / willing to rejoin the band, correct ? Did he call to let Fans know he wasnt a part of the show ( with the inference that if they were going to see him as part of the group they should know before buying their ticket ) or did he take the extra step and say boycott the band in a vindictive way ?

The answer to this makes a huge difference in how this incident would be viewed by me.....also, is there a written transcript or a recording of this interview available anywhere ? I'd be very interested in hearing/reading for myself.

[Monker]

Because it's perception. Youre views that as an insult,. fair enough.

I think saying somebody would drink somebody elses bathwater if they asked is an insult. It did nothing but give those who drink HIS bathwater a phrase to use against Tommy and Styx.

As for those gray hairs, I'm pretty sure that all those bathtubs have those gray hairs..of course they mighted be tinted or dyed just a little.

My point is there are those who drink Dennis' bathwater. He, and they, just don't want to use that term to describe them. Maybe because, oh, I don't know, it's insulting?

[Zan]

Zan, I wasn't paying attention as much in 2000 as I am today I had some other things going on that year which I had to concentrate on.

I am very curious about the "boycott call" this was the time period in which DDY was interested / willing to rejoin the band, correct ? Did he call to let Fans know he wasnt a part of the show ( with the inference that if they were going to see him as part of the group they should know before buying their ticket ) or did he take the extra step and say boycott the band in a vindictive way ?

The answer to this makes a huge difference in how this incident would be viewed by me.....also, is there a written transcript or a recording of this interview available anywhere ? I'd be very interested in hearing/reading for myself.

As I recall, and I personally do not have a transcript or anything (I did attend the show he was trying to get folks to boycott which is how I even knew about it - people were talking about the "interview" at the venue), he was only interested in joining the band under his terms, and at that point, it was an impossibility. He called to inform the public that the band performing as Styx was not the "real thing," and that fans should boycott the show because of it. The promo shots for the show did not have Dennis' name or picture on them, and the band was not advertising themselves to be touring with Dennis either. So IMO, he was just sour grapes and wanted to "get back" at them. His call was unsolicited as well. HE called the radio station, introduced himself by singing "Lady" in the guy's ear, then proceded to rant about Styx's appearance at an Atlantic City casino scheduled for the next day.

That was just one incident. There have been many others, but that one really, really stuck out in my mind at the time.

[Zan]

Edit:::

I would also like to point out, that up until this time, and even for many months after this ordeal happened, the other guys in Styx had said NOTHING derrogatory against DDY publically - unless you count the occasional outburst from Glen on the online boards, and his were fairly tame as well.

All the while their silence was regarded as blatent GUILT by some members of the DeYoung camp. "Why aren't they refuting these claims that Dennis is making?" (over & over, I might add) It was all such a mess.

Now, I'm not defending what JY has said in recent interviews. I would like to see him drop the bitterness as well. Not because I disagree with him, but because I think it's a dead issue, and it's time to move on. But let's lay the blame where it belongs all the way across the board.

[Zan]

My point is there are those who drink Dennis' bathwater. He, and they, just don't want to use that term to describe them. Maybe because, oh, I don't know, it's insulting?

It's VERY insulting. And yes, the only thing it provided was a slang term for DeYoungian enthusiasts to label anyone who enjoyed the current line-up. Pretty desperate, IMO, and it came off as such. Obviously, the guy was bitter. I mean, "Mr. Perfect" (that would be Tommy, for those of you unfamiliar with that DeYoung-penned nickname)had won again. What else was he going to say? I know! Insult half your fan base! That'll show 'em I'm worthy of their respect!

[bugsymalone]

the band was not advertising themselves to be touring with Dennis either.

Unlike they often do now? Well, maybe not the band, but their management team and VH1.

If this is true about Dennis, and it indeed was a public forum, then that was certainly not a commendable thing he did.

And, like Classic, I was not paying as much attention to all of this in 1999, 2000 as I have in the last couple of years.
One of the first things I saw regarding the band's dissolution was Behind the Music, and I never saw a hint of ugliness from Dennis' mouth. A lot was said ABOUT him, by not BY him.

I know MANY things were said publicly in the heat of the immediate breakup that each of these guys probably all wish they could take back, and would likely never say again.

That said, JY is the only one who still persists (and not always) in the nasty comments regarding Dennis where it seems both Dennis and Tommy have quelled public/print airing of their true feelings.

Bugsy

[Zan]

the band was not advertising themselves to be touring with Dennis either.

Unlike they often do now? Well, maybe not the band, but their management team and VH1.

The band management does not. What venues and VH-1 do is not up to the band. They make their information available, and it's up to the promoter to use it. But I can understand why it reflects on the band when the wrong info gets put out there. (Another reason why it's so frustrating for the band - they get blamed for stuff they have no control over)

If this is true about Dennis, and it indeed was a public forum, then that was certainly not a commendable thing he did.

And, like Classic, I was not paying as much attention to all of this in 1999, 2000 as I have in the last couple of years.
One of the first things I saw regarding the band's dissolution was Behind the Music, and I never saw a hint of ugliness from Dennis' mouth. A lot was said ABOUT him, by not BY him.

Oh, I heard subtleties like "I'll never do this again to myself" when referring to dragging the band into the Kilroy project. To me, that spoke volumes. I thought he did a good job portraying himself to be victimized, however.

I know MANY things were said publicly in the heat of the immediate breakup that each of these guys probably all wish they could take back, and would likely never say again.

That said, JY is the only one who still persists (and not always) in the nasty comments regarding Dennis where it seems both Dennis and Tommy have quelled public/print airing of their true feelings.

[/quote]


I agree. I too wish JY would lose the anger (at least the public anger, anyway) because that's only a small part of what he's about, and there's so much more to him that's so freaking COOL. I want to see more of that from him.

[bugsymalone]

What it boils down to for me is a public airing of nasty, or negative comments by one band member towards another. It is simply not beneficial to anyone. We both agree on that one.

As to Dennis' comments on BTM, well, there are many interpretations to the one you mention as an example, but I never heard him say a negative thing about the other band members.
Things that are implied are always up for interpretation, depending upon the viewpoint of the person listening/viewing.

Bugsy

[ek88]

That said, JY is the only one who still persists (and not always) in the nasty comments regarding Dennis where it seems both Dennis and Tommy have quelled public/print airing of their true feelings.

I think Dennis got his way many more times than Tommy and JY in the latter days of classic Styx, and so he has less to gripe about than they do, hence he tends to come off a little better and less bitter in interviews these days (than our buddy JY). As far as Tommy, I think he got it off his chest early on. I remember some very pointed notes at the Styx website, shortly after the breakup. Maybe JY is just taking his turn, maybe it's therapeutic for him, I really don't know.

[Zan]

What it boils down to for me is a public airing of nasty, or negative comments by one band member towards another. It is simply not beneficial to anyone. We both agree on that one.

As to Dennis' comments on BTM, well, there are many interpretations to the one you mention as an example, but I never heard him say a negative thing about the other band members.
Things that are implied are always up for interpretation, depending upon the viewpoint of the person listening/viewing.

Yeah, that's kinda what some of us have said all along. If you believe DDY was wronged, you will always see evidence that proves that theory. Myself, I have always seen Dennis to be nothing more than an attention-seeking diva with an ultra-fantastic voice, and he never disappoints when I hear him speak! LOL

[Adam]

I think this is a pretty cool thread (is that what you call it?). It's a respectful dialogue/debate. Perhaps we've matured!

And bugsy, you're completely right. I have sometimes overlooked other, more sensible posts, because I'm in search of the next uncivilized word from Froot's typewriter. I apologize for that (oops, I let my own ignorance show!)

And to be fair, not only have all the band members been coming from EMOTIONAL RESPONSES & all kinds of other pent up baggage from time to time, but there is also the "PUBLIC STATEMENT" pressure/vidication to the jabs they have made against each other.

DeYoung has signed a gag order supposedly, as part of the settlement. So he's been cool. I MUST mention that he DID make his most nasty/pissed off quotes at the time the band seemed to be hinting he might step in. I believe there was a time when Shaw & Co. would've cut a deal w/ DDY in which he could arrange to take the gigs he wanted and stay home for others.

But because DDY simply didn't like the loss of control, he took to calling radio stations and newspapers to rebut the Styx tour w/o him. And THAT my friends was the move that closed the door on JY & Shaw ever wanting to accept him into the band's new era.

(Until whenever it's far enough behind everyone OR a big enough offer comes along...)

So, it always comes down to who you like more - DDY or Tommy. They EACH had fairly understandable reasons for making the choices they did. (Why should DeYoung GIVE UP CONTROL? Why should Shaw, JY & Chuck only make a living, promote a new record, capitalize on the Adam Sandler/VW resurgence opportunities and perform before audiences when Dennis says it's time to make music?).

And if you like DDY more, you believe he was sick. And if you like Shaw more, you probably believe DDY is a hypochondriac. Behind The Music? The DeYoungians felt it was proof DDY was a victim and the Styx 5.1ers believed it obvious Dennis was the problem.

So, I don't expect we'll be SOLVING anything here...you know, Frug?

[Zan]

I think this is a pretty cool thread (is that what you call it?). It's a respectful dialogue/debate. Perhaps we've matured!

And bugsy, you're completely right. I have sometimes overlooked other, more sensible posts, because I'm in search of the next uncivilized word from Froot's typewriter. I apologize for that (oops, I let my own ignorance show!)

And to be fair, not only have all the band members been coming from EMOTIONAL RESPONSES & all kinds of other pent up baggage from time to time, but there is also the "PUBLIC STATEMENT" pressure/vidication to the jabs they have made against each other.

DeYoung has signed a gag order supposedly, as part of the settlement. So he's been cool. I MUST mention that he DID make his most nasty/pissed off quotes at the time the band seemed to be hinting he might step in. I believe there was a time when Shaw & Co. would've cut a deal w/ DDY in which he could arrange to take the gigs he wanted and stay home for others.

But because DDY simply didn't like the loss of control, he took to calling radio stations and newspapers to rebut the Styx tour w/o him. And THAT my friends was the move that closed the door on JY & Shaw ever wanting to accept him into the band's new era.

(Until whenever it's far enough behind everyone OR a big enough offer comes along...)

So, it always comes down to who you like more - DDY or Tommy. They EACH had fairly understandable reasons for making the choices they did. (Why should DeYoung GIVE UP CONTROL? Why should Shaw, JY & Chuck only make a living, promote a new record, capitalize on the Adam Sandler/VW resurgence opportunities and perform before audiences when Dennis says it's time to make music?).

And if you like DDY more, you believe he was sick. And if you like Shaw more, you probably believe DDY is a hypochondriac. Behind The Music? The DeYoungians felt it was proof DDY was a victim and the Styx 5.1ers believed it obvious Dennis was the problem.

So, I don't expect we'll be SOLVING anything here...you know, Frug?

woohooo! well put. Bold font because it bore repeating. LOL

[sadie65]

I'll start off by apologizing for not recognizing that the "bathwater" comment made by Dennis was viewed as an insult. I think it is an exaggeration to say it insulted half the fans, but that is my opinion only.

I remember things differently than Zan does, but I will respectfully let it go.

As for JY's comments, Dennis' comments, and how any of this played out in public, I will say again, I do not think that any of them handled the situation well, there was disregard for the fans by all the band members, and that no matter what, the fans were/are the ones who were left holding the bag.

Differences of opinion on how the band should evolve, inflexibility on Dennis' part, a need to assert themselves, and a growing awareness that the professional relationship was not salvageable, I think all made each man react the way they did. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

It is oh so easy to armchair quarterback them all. We take their words and actions and place on our views on them. I think time and distance have mellowed these men. And each, as many of us have noted, seems to be much happier. I wish them well in their endeavors.

Peace

[Monker]

I'll start off by apologizing for not recognizing that the "bathwater" comment made by Dennis was viewed as an insult. I think it is an exaggeration to say it insulted half the fans, but that is my opinion only.

It's not half of ALL of the fans...But, he insulted ALL of the fans on the internet who regularly read paradisetheatre.com:


"The thing that is most disturbing is it's clear to me they never really ever understood what Styx was to their fans. Other than getting on the web and dealing with a small amount of people who'll click on and basically drink your bath water if you want them too.

If you look at a tour when 3 or 400,000 people come to see you or if you're able to sell 400,000 or 500,000 albums the people that go to that web site regularly comprise maybe 5,000 of those people. So you can't keep preaching to the choir thinking that it's the whole congregation. It is not."


In the process of criticizing Tommy for paying attention to Styx fans on the internet, Dennis insulted ALL of the fans who regularly visited the Styx website...

Nowadays, of course, Dennis himself gives attention to internet fans and encourages them to drink HIS bathwater. It was actualy Dennis who was out of touch with the fans (Tommy had been talking to fans on the internet since around 1993), not JY and Tommy.

[sadie65]

I respectfully disagree. I think Dennis' comments were accurate. It would be preaching to the choir. On the few boards I frequent, by and large they are dominated by handfuls of regular posters. Certainly there are lurkers. I didn't find his words in this context insulting, however I do sincerely see that for some they would be.

I also recognize that Tommy was and is a forward thinker when it comes to the net. If you think Dennis is embracing the net, I can tell you he isn't. One look at his site, and you can see that. At least to my way of thinking.

I wish you all peace and a good day

[yogi]

Excellent assembly line here. I must say I am without a doubt the 'ONLY ' unbiased one posting here??????

I personally wish we could bring them all back ( Dennis, John P., John C., Glen, Lorfoano( whoever the hell he was), Yaz and his motorcycle stunts, bring them all the hell back ) they all could join the current band, and play every cornfield, zoo, and 40,000 seat stadium from here to Japan.

Suzzane could read to them from her current novel while Tommys wife cuts their hair and shows them pictures of her senior skip day.

Dennis could sing lead on a Criminal Mind, and Gowan could perform Dont Let It End.

Quit bitching, because pretty soon it will end. That then will be the sad day!!

[Monker]

I respectfully disagree. I think Dennis' comments were accurate. It would be preaching to the choir.

That is NOT the point. I agree that the fraction of fans a website reaches is only a small piece of the total fans who buy albums and go to concerts. I have argued that point for years for other reasons. Having a kick-ass website is NOT going to make an album gold or platinum, or sell out a tour. It's a piece of a larger puzzle.

But, calling that fraction of fans "bath water drinkers" is an INSULT, no matter how you cut it. And, if you spent much time looking at and reading paradisetheatre.com, Dennis was saying it to YOU. He did not make ANY distinction between "Tommy Styx fans" and "Classic Styx fans" - he labeled ALL Styx fans on the internet "bath water drinkers" simply because they had interaction with Tommy - and NOT him.

Like it's Tommy's fault he had a long standing relationship to the Styx fans on the internet...and Dennis did NOT.

I also recognize that Tommy was and is a forward thinker when it comes to the net. If you think Dennis is embracing the net, I can tell you he isn't. One look at his site, and you can see that. At least to my way of thinking.

When that interview was given, Dennis barely even had a pressence on the internet. After he saw he could fill his own bathtub, he started doing it with his own website, online interviews, etc. Dennis HAS absolutely used the internet for both propaganda and promotion.

[sadie65]

That is NOT the point. I agree that the fraction of fans a website reaches is only a small piece of the total fans who buy albums and go to concerts. I have argued that point for years for other reasons. Having a kick-ass website is NOT going to make an album gold or platinum, or sell out a tour. It's a piece of a larger puzzle.

To you it's an insult. I've acknowledged that ad nauseum already. To each his own. I am not going to keep belaboring the point with you. We disagree about it's intent or it's conclusion.

But, calling that fraction of fans "bath water drinkers" is an INSULT, no matter how you cut it. And, if you spent much time looking at and reading paradisetheatre.com, Dennis was saying it to YOU. He did not make ANY distinction between "Tommy Styx fans" and "Classic Styx fans" - he labeled ALL Styx fans on the internet "bath water drinkers" simply because they had interaction with Tommy - and NOT him.

I never said he made that distinction. I said his comments were accurate. And they were. I viewed it as him saying that Tommy was preaching to the choir, not as an insult to the fans. Again, we view this differently. And again, I'll say I can see how some would take offense to his words.

Like it's Tommy's fault he had a long standing relationship to the Styx fans on the internet...and Dennis did NOT.

Fault? Okay... I believe I alrady said Tommy wasa forward thinker with regard to the internet. Dennis clearly isn't.

When that interview was given, Dennis barely even had a pressence on the internet. After he saw he could fill his own bathtub, he started doing it with his own website, online interviews, etc. Dennis HAS absolutely used the internet for both propaganda and promotion.

[/quote]

Yes, he's used the net. My point was, he hasn't used it well. He does NOT embrace the net as does Tommy. It's one thing to have a website. Quite another to visit chat rooms with fans. I am NOT saying Tommy was wrong. I am saying that Dennis is very late in terms of recognizing the value of using the net. Promotion does not equate bathtub filling. And tell me any performer who doesn't use the net for interviews. Dennis has been very slow to accept this. That he has is neither good nor bad. Tommy learned it quicker. Hats off to Tommy.

I myself, find this a bit tedious. If you want to pick apart my words, feel free. I myself, hereby acknowledge that Dennis' words offended some fans. I don't believe that was his intent, but since others do, so be it. Shame on Dennis.

[Monker]

To you it's an insult.

OF COURSE IT IS. To say that a group of people are so mindless that they would drink somebody's bath water is insulting. How much more of a direct insult does Dennis have to make before you acknowledge it?

I never said he made that distinction.

I did not say that YOU did. I am saying that DENNIS did NOT make that distinction...he insulted ALL of Styx' fans, including those that supported him but spent time on Styx' website reading Tommy's notes, etc.

I said his comments were accurate. And they were.

You actualy believe it is 'accurate' to say Styx fans who regularly browse Styx's website are so mindless that they would drink Tommy's bathwater?

I viewed it as him saying that Tommy was preaching to the choir, not as an insult to the fans.

You view one half of the statement and ignore the insult...unless you believe the 'choir' is complete with a glass of bathwater to clear a scratchy throat.

Again, we view this differently.

I don't think so. I think you have selective reading and REFUSE to see the truth of what Dennis actualy said.

Fault? Okay... I believe I alrady said Tommy wasa forward thinker with regard to the internet. Dennis clearly isn't.

Too bad Dennis did not have such a rational thought process when he started doing interviews...If he did, he would have credited Tommy for engaging a group of fans hungry for Styx news of any kind at a time when it seemed Styx had come to a conclusion and would not be heard from again.

Yes, he's used the net. My point was, he hasn't used it well. He does NOT embrace the net as does Tommy.

So what. He doesn't have to. He can tour without it, can't he? It sounds like he may even release an album without a total embrace of the internet. It is a privilage to be able to interact with a celebrity online...It is not a necessity that they do it. Some celebrities deal with this form of communication better then others...that is neither good, nor bad, it is THEIR choice.

And tell me any performer who doesn't use the net for interviews.

Elvis. I bet his solo albums outsell Dennis' year after year too.

You don't need to have an internet pressence AT ALL to be successful. You don't even have to be alive. All you need is good marketing and label support.

[yogi]

We the Vioxx & Celebrex users that enjoy Styx music think there is nothing wrong with drinking bath water!!!!!!!!