Why did Styx erase Dennis from it's history?

[Toph]

If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best.

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

I disagree to some degree. They could have said, "No more." They didn't. Look at Rush - the label wanted hits, they gave them 2112 (see the new documentary on them for this whole thing). Their rationale was that if they're going to go out, they're going to go out with a bang. I've said this for years - when the money was really flowing for Styx in that 78 - 83 period (and they were doing things like touring the world), people put up with it to a large degree. And why wouldn't they? Everyone was doing OK even if they were getting less.

And, that's the point. They had a choice. Take a huge risk on their future by confronting DDY, firing him, making him quit, losing their label, etc. Or, putting up with it and keep the big check. I think it is unreasonable to say they could have just voted it down.

Did Rush take the risk as a band, or just one member making a stand? I don't know, but I would bet it was as a band. And, yes, it is a risk, cuz usually the label can refuse to release the album.

Were members unhappy? You bet. Tommy definitely was - he started working on GWG during PT in England. Dennis got fired and rehired. So it's not like everything was sunshine and roses around Styx. You can tell when they crossed the divide as a hungry band to a machine post-GI. I'm not saying they didn't have anything to say or were not hungry at all, but once you have massive success, it can only change you.

Does "Kiss Me Hello" not have a lot of words about his situation with Styx? About the struggle to decide on whether to leave the band or stay, and coming to the conclusion that he had probably stayed too long in Styx and it was time to leave?

Where I do agree with you is that shit rolls downhill. The label is in a business to make money, not foster creativity. If art and commerce meet, good, if not, it's all about the Benjamins. So to that point, Dennis had a more proven track record for hits. It's only natural everyone - including the other guys in Styx - would defer to him - right or wrong.

I was thinking someone involved with Styx said something similar to what Herbie said about #1 singles...that once you get it, the label expects a #1 single on every album. So, it stops being about the album package and becomes "what is the next #1?" Every album after Babe had a similar formulistic ballad..."Don't Let it End", "Show Me the Way", etc.

And it really worked out horribly for both Styx and Journey didn't it?
You holier than thou types that have this pristine image that Styx could have been half the band they were by "rocking" are so fucking out of your mind that it really is pathetic. But keep drinking JY and Tommy's Kool Aid.

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask sand average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

[stmonkeys]

are you kidding? rush can sell out 20,000 seat venues. it's NOT ALWAYS about the hits.

[pinkfloyd1973]

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask and average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

I can name quite a few Rush songs offhand without having to look them up....so what's your point?

[Boomchild]

are you kidding? rush can sell out 20,000 seat venues. it's NOT ALWAYS about the hits.

Your right. Rush has a huge core fan base even today. I would go as far to say their hardcore fan base is at least twice the size of Styx's. They can still record albums that enough people will by to make it worthwhile to do it.

[Boomchild]

If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best.

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

I disagree to some degree. They could have said, "No more." They didn't. Look at Rush - the label wanted hits, they gave them 2112 (see the new documentary on them for this whole thing). Their rationale was that if they're going to go out, they're going to go out with a bang. I've said this for years - when the money was really flowing for Styx in that 78 - 83 period (and they were doing things like touring the world), people put up with it to a large degree. And why wouldn't they? Everyone was doing OK even if they were getting less.

And, that's the point. They had a choice. Take a huge risk on their future by confronting DDY, firing him, making him quit, losing their label, etc. Or, putting up with it and keep the big check. I think it is unreasonable to say they could have just voted it down.

Did Rush take the risk as a band, or just one member making a stand? I don't know, but I would bet it was as a band. And, yes, it is a risk, cuz usually the label can refuse to release the album.

Were members unhappy? You bet. Tommy definitely was - he started working on GWG during PT in England. Dennis got fired and rehired. So it's not like everything was sunshine and roses around Styx. You can tell when they crossed the divide as a hungry band to a machine post-GI. I'm not saying they didn't have anything to say or were not hungry at all, but once you have massive success, it can only change you.

Does "Kiss Me Hello" not have a lot of words about his situation with Styx? About the struggle to decide on whether to leave the band or stay, and coming to the conclusion that he had probably stayed too long in Styx and it was time to leave?

Where I do agree with you is that shit rolls downhill. The label is in a business to make money, not foster creativity. If art and commerce meet, good, if not, it's all about the Benjamins. So to that point, Dennis had a more proven track record for hits. It's only natural everyone - including the other guys in Styx - would defer to him - right or wrong.

I was thinking someone involved with Styx said something similar to what Herbie said about #1 singles...that once you get it, the label expects a #1 single on every album. So, it stops being about the album package and becomes "what is the next #1?" Every album after Babe had a similar formulistic ballad..."Don't Let it End", "Show Me the Way", etc.

And it really worked out horribly for both Styx and Journey didn't it?
You holier than thou types that have this pristine image that Styx could have been half the band they were by "rocking" are so fucking out of your mind that it really is pathetic. But keep drinking JY and Tommy's Kool Aid.

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask sand average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

Thats what frustrates me. They ALL chose that path for the success of the band. Maybe they all didn't totaly agree with the whole directions of things . So for them to look back at it and point the finger just at DDY is ridiculous. If they focused around just making albums then albums with potential hit singles I think we would not even be sitting here discussing Styx today. Their career may have ended much sooner.

[Monker]

You holier than thou types that have this pristine image that Styx could have been half the band they were by "rocking" are so fucking out of your mind that it really is pathetic. But keep drinking JY and Tommy's Kool Aid.

Oh, please, I have been writing these things since 1992 or so...long before you were drinking DDY's bathwater.

I didn't say anything about 'rocking'...that's not the point. Quit making things up.

The point is when one person has so much control that they can dictate a Kilroy, or ROR, on a band that doesn't want to write that kind of music, then it is a bad thing. In that type of situation, you can't have a Grand Illusion, or Escape. When one person limits the vision to only himself he drowns out the genius of what a team can bring together. That is what happened to both Styx and Journey. The truly pathetic thing is people like you refuse to see that...yet still call yourself a Styx/Journey fan.

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask sand average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

What a foolish thing to say. But, not as foolish as:

And it really worked out horribly for both Styx and Journey didn't it?

I would say when the respective dictators took complete control, the bands being broke up for years, lackluster reunion albums, and tours and albums without their lead singers is not exactly a wonderful thing. If DDY and Steve Perry would have been a bit more humble in the 80's perhaps they could have stayed in their respective bands, instead of them breaking up for years....losing any chance of them rising above their peers and not being lumped in with REO, Foreigner, Kansas, Survivor, etc. As would be said in Journeyville, the stone was cracked when Tommy put his hand through the glass and left Styx. At that point Styx would never return to the glory of GI or POE, or PT. They had jumped the shark. All because one man had pushed the band members to their limits, killing the thing that he loved.

[Monker]

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask and average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

I can name quite a few Rush songs offhand without having to look them up....so what's your point?

Sorry, but if a person can't name "Tom Sawyer", they shouldn't be part of such a poll anyways.

[brywool]

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask sand average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

At least Rush still produces NEW music. They still sell out most of their shows. Even though they had no "Hit Singles", the band still does great business for their genre.

MOST bands that have number 1 singles don't do big business in the tour and album biz for very long.
Up until Cornerstone, Styx was an ALBUM band. They should've remained so. Dennis' chasing of hit singles is what brought them down- however, it also made them who they were early on, so you can't fault him for that. Unfortunately, he went too soft and it nearly killed the band.

How many top tens has Led Zep had? AC/DC? - yet these two bands had HUGE album sales and are regarded by most as legendary. Same goes for The Eagles and many others.

The Beatles are the exception to this and every rule.

People may not be able to name Rush songs, but they sure in the hell know who the band is.

Why are you such a bitter dude Toph? All of your posts are just so mean spirited. Are you a relative of DeYoung's or something?

[StyxCollector]

And, that's the point. They had a choice. Take a huge risk on their future by confronting DDY, firing him, making him quit, losing their label, etc. Or, putting up with it and keep the big check. I think it is unreasonable to say they could have just voted it down.

Did Rush take the risk as a band, or just one member making a stand? I don't know, but I would bet it was as a band. And, yes, it is a risk, cuz usually the label can refuse to release the album.

Rush did it as a band.

Styx didn't truly get rid of DDY until 1999 - 20 years after the Cornerstone incident. There's more to it obviously, but in 1979 they were at the top. In 1999 they were not. You're contradicting yourself a bit here by saying Dennis was a dictator, but stating what I have all along: if they lost the label by pushing him out, we'd have a different situation in 1979. Instead, they sucked whatever issues they had with him up, got him back, and had another 4 years of success. They did it willingly, which is the bottom line. Dennis could have stayed fired. Was it a bad decision in hindsight? You either want the success or you don't. The money was printing itself in 1979, so party on. Everyone in Styx - Dennis, JY, Tommy, Chuck, and John - were responsible for their ultimate downfall in 1983. It wasn't just Dennis.

Does "Kiss Me Hello" not have a lot of words about his situation with Styx? About the struggle to decide on whether to leave the band or stay, and coming to the conclusion that he had probably stayed too long in Styx and it was time to leave?

I don't konw why Tommy wrote KMH. Your interpretation may or may not be correct.

I was thinking someone involved with Styx said something similar to what Herbie said about #1 singles...that once you get it, the label expects a #1 single on every album. So, it stops being about the album package and becomes "what is the next #1?" Every album after Babe had a similar formulistic ballad..."Don't Let it End", "Show Me the Way", etc.

Both of the songs you mentioned were hits. It's the music BUSINESS. It wasn't charity. Damn skippy the label wants to make some money. If you ran a record label, would you do it for the music or the money? As a label head, your end result really is the bottom line or it's your job. If the music is good and even critically well received, it's almost a second thought.

[Toph]

[quote="brywool
I would also bet that Styx lost more more fans than they gained. Their album sales prove that point. .[/quote]

This is the kind of crap that JY/Tommy love to sell that Brywool and Monker start quoting as fact and is, every way you look at it, complete bullshit.

Facts: Styx had exactly 2 studio platinum albums prior to Cornerstone. They had 3 with Cornerstone and the 2 subsequent albums. Their highest charting album prior to Cornerstone was #6 (GI). Cornerstone hit #2, Paradise hit #1 and Kilroy hit #2. Paradise Theatre, the album that followed Cornerstone, is still the highest selling Styx album to date - having sold more copies than even the vaulted Grand Illusion LP. And it hit frickin' #1 too. Oh, and Cornerstone, everyone's favorite whipping boy, has sold more copies worldwide than any Styx album (thank you Boat on the River). Don't go saying that album sales tanked due to the new direction - if anything they sold MORE albums as a result of the new direction. Think for yourself, bry, and stop believing every word that JY and Tommy try to push into your brain. Both of them lie and spin to create a story, that is by all factual points, completely untrue.

[Toph]

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask sand average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

At least Rush still produces NEW music. They still sell out most of their shows. Even though they had no "Hit Singles", the band still does great business for their genre.

MOST bands that have number 1 singles don't do big business in the tour and album biz for very long.
Up until Cornerstone, Styx was an ALBUM band. They should've remained so. Dennis' chasing of hit singles is what brought them down- however, it also made them who they were early on, so you can't fault him for that. Unfortunately, he went too soft and it nearly killed the band.

How many top tens has Led Zep had? AC/DC? - yet these two bands had HUGE album sales and are regarded by most as legendary. Same goes for The Eagles and many others.

The Beatles are the exception to this and every rule.

People may not be able to name Rush songs, but they sure in the hell know who the band is.

Why are you such a bitter dude Toph? All of your posts are just so mean spirited. Are you a relative of DeYoung's or something?

Not bitter at all dude. But just call your bullshit because you andMonker truly are full of it. Maybe you boys should get together and bitch for a while about Styx and how awful DDy was. Maybe play first time and see what happens bewteen you two.

[Monker]

[quote="brywool
I would also bet that Styx lost more more fans than they gained. Their album sales prove that point. .

This is the kind of crap that JY/Tommy love to sell that Brywool and Monker start quoting as fact and is, every way you look at it, complete bullshit.
[/quote]

Quit inventing things that I said which I didn't. I did not make any such 'quote' that agrees with the above.

Don't go saying that album sales tanked due to the new direction

*I* didn't say that. I said that the band itself 'tanked'...not solely due to the 'new direction', but because of the person dictating that direction.

if anything they sold MORE albums as a result of the new direction.

In the end, that is meaningless when the band breaks up because of the inflexibility of the dictator at the captains chair.

[Boomchild]

The point is when one person has so much control that they can dictate a Kilroy, or ROR, on a band that doesn't want to write that kind of music, then it is a bad thing. In that type of situation, you can't have a Grand Illusion, or Escape. When one person limits the vision to only himself he drowns out the genius of what a team can bring together. That is what happened to both Styx and Journey. The truly pathetic thing is people like you refuse to see that...yet still call yourself a Styx/Journey fan.

The Real point is, if DDY really had that much control as you say he did it was because the others CHOSE to let him do that. They went along with it, they cashed the checks, they accepted the praise for the work I could go on and on. If they want to blame someone for whatever unhappiness, they need to look no further then a mirror. It would be interesting to see detailed specifics of just what they had planned or in mind for Styx going forward at that point. Of course you never get any of those details except, "we wanted more straight ahead rock n' roll material". On that subject. one could say that if they were trying to impose on DDY exactly what types of songs the members could write that can be considered acting like dictators. DDY may have been very persuasive about the direction of the band and concepts for albums but I don't see where he forced them to write certain styles of songs. Their contributions are clearly of their own style.

[Boomchild]

I would also bet that Styx lost more more fans than they gained. Their album sales prove that point. .

This is the kind of crap that JY/Tommy love to sell that Brywool and Monker start quoting as fact and is, every way you look at it, complete bullshit.

Facts: Styx had exactly 2 studio platinum albums prior to Cornerstone. They had 3 with Cornerstone and the 2 subsequent albums. Their highest charting album prior to Cornerstone was #6 (GI). Cornerstone hit #2, Paradise hit #1 and Kilroy hit #2. Paradise Theatre, the album that followed Cornerstone, is still the highest selling Styx album to date - having sold more copies than even the vaulted Grand Illusion LP. And it hit frickin' #1 too. Oh, and Cornerstone, everyone's favorite whipping boy, has sold more copies worldwide than any Styx album (thank you Boat on the River). Don't go saying that album sales tanked due to the new direction - if anything they sold MORE albums as a result of the new direction. Think for yourself, bry, and stop believing every word that JY and Tommy try to push into your brain. Both of them lie and spin to create a story, that is by all factual points, completely untrue.

Agree 100% with your post.

[Monker]

Styx didn't truly get rid of DDY until 1999 - 20 years after the Cornerstone incident.

Put that in context. They broke up after Kilroy and didn't come back together until the mid-90's...and didn't even attempt another album until BNW. There was a HUGE amount of down time within those 20yrs.

There's more to it obviously, but in 1979 they were at the top. In 1999 they were not.

Exactly my point. It's easier to fire the captain when the ship isn't bringing in millions of dollars a year.

You're contradicting yourself a bit here by saying Dennis was a dictator, but stating what I have all along: if they lost the label by pushing him out, we'd have a different situation in 1979.

My point is that it is Dennis' character flaws which ended Styx with Kilroy...and why he is no longer in the band. If he could have let go a bit and let the band be a 'band", there would have been a different situation from 1979 - 1999 as well.

Instead, they sucked whatever issues they had with him up, got him back, and had another 4 years of success.

Yes, 'success' in the short term as defined by $'s. But, in the end, it was all a huge failure because the band broke up and could never recover.

They did it willingly, which is the bottom line.

No, it's not the 'bottom line'. It's not a simple black and white situation. If anybody arguing this point in this thread had to choose between making hundreds of thousands of $'s a year and being unemployed with an uncertain future, I think the same decision would be made.

Dennis could have stayed fired. Was it a bad decision in hindsight?

Of course not - it was the only reasonable decision they could make under the circumstances.

The bad decision was on Dennis' part for deciding to be such a controlling asshole. He made the unreasonable decision that caused the breakup of the band and his eventual firing - permanently

The money was printing itself in 1979, so party on. Everyone in Styx - Dennis, JY, Tommy, Chuck, and John - were responsible for their ultimate downfall in 1983. It wasn't just Dennis.

Dennis took over the wheel and direction of Styx. So, he should take responsibility for it's downfall...and his own. It's no different then Steve Perry having to take responsibility for ROR and Journey's downfall after that album. The Capt. of the Titanic blaming his crew is bullshit...the Capt. needs to take responsibility for the eventual outcome.

"The first rule of leadership - Everything is your fault."

Funny how Dennis fans try to give him so much credit. They say that Tommy and JY owe their careers to Dennis. He wrote all the hit songs, produced every album, came up with the concepts, his leadership made Styx what they were, it was even HIS band. But, when it comes to taking responsibility for the downfall of Styx...well, that was a band thing and has to be shared equally. Bullshit. He pushed himself into the forefront of the band and stuck his neck out...and it Kilroy chopped it off.

I don't konw why Tommy wrote KMH. Your interpretation may or may not be correct.

Then perhaps you should look it up. I'm very certain that is what the inspiration was.

Both of the songs you mentioned were hits. It's the music BUSINESS. It wasn't charity.

Of course they were. So what? Point is that having those 'hits' on every album because Dennis' responsibility and his writing because lost in it and very one dimensional.

Damn skippy the label wants to make some money.

And, they did not make nearly as much after Kilroy.

If you ran a record label, would you do it for the music or the money?

From what I know about Journey and Styx I would try to invest in a bands long term goals and not short term bubble gum top 40 crap. It takes a lot of time and effort by EVERYBODY to build up a band the way Styx and Journey were. You do not do that by looking solely at charting singles. You build up fan loyalty by releasing entire albums of quality must. You get the fans to crave new music because of it - and the willingness to pay for it before they even hear it the first time. THAT is most important. Concentrating only on the next top 10 single is short-sighted and in the end does not get the full earning potential from the band...especially back in the mid-80's before downloadable 'free' music. You hope for the best with singles, but not REQUIRE a top 10 hit on every album...and in the end produce generic songs that follow the same formula over and over again. Leave that crap to the bands that are nothing but the passing flavor of the month...and are gone after one hit and never heard from again. Styx was better then that.

[Boomchild]

Dennis could have stayed fired. Was it a bad decision in hindsight?

Of course not - it was the only reasonable decision they could make under the circumstances.

The bad decision was on Dennis' part for deciding to be such a controlling asshole. He made the unreasonable decision that caused the breakup of the band and his eventual firing - permanently

Not according to JY. He has Stated "Dennis was good for Styx for the first ten years and after that it was alll about him". So according to JY they could have moved forward without him and Styx would have been better off.

The money was printing itself in 1979, so party on. Everyone in Styx - Dennis, JY, Tommy, Chuck, and John - were responsible for their ultimate downfall in 1983. It wasn't just Dennis.

Dennis took over the wheel and direction of Styx. So, he should take responsibility for it's downfall...and his own. It's no different then Steve Perry having to take responsibility for ROR and Journey's downfall after that album. The Capt. of the Titanic blaming his crew is bullshit...the Capt. needs to take responsibility for the eventual outcome.

"The first rule of leadership - Everything is your fault."

Funny how Dennis fans try to give him so much credit. They say that Tommy and JY owe their careers to Dennis. He wrote all the hit songs, produced every album, came up with the concepts, his leadership made Styx what they were, it was even HIS band. But, when it comes to taking responsibility for the downfall of Styx...well, that was a band thing and has to be shared equally. Bullshit. He pushed himself into the forefront of the band and stuck his neck out...and it Kilroy chopped it off.

Not every DDY fan gives DDY all the credit. I don't think that TS and JY owe their carriers to DDY. It was the efforts of all of them that made the band. That is why I don't feel the current band is Styx. BTW, DDY has taken the blame for pushing KWH on the band, many times.

If you ran a record label, would you do it for the music or the money?

From what I know about Journey and Styx I would try to invest in a bands long term goals and not short term bubble gum top 40 crap. It takes a lot of time and effort by EVERYBODY to build up a band the way Styx and Journey were. You do not do that by looking solely at charting singles. You build up fan loyalty by releasing entire albums of quality must. You get the fans to crave new music because of it - and the willingness to pay for it before they even hear it the first time. THAT is most important. Concentrating only on the next top 10 single is short-sighted and in the end does not get the full earning potential from the band...especially back in the mid-80's before downloadable 'free' music. You hope for the best with singles, but not REQUIRE a top 10 hit on every album...and in the end produce generic songs that follow the same formula over and over again. Leave that crap to the bands that are nothing but the passing flavor of the month...and are gone after one hit and never heard from again. Styx was better then that.

The simple fact is that the record labels are only concerned about making as much as they can off the success of an artist at the time of their popularity. The music trends and artists can be to hard to forecast for the record labels to be looking at things long term.

[Monker]

Dennis could have stayed fired. Was it a bad decision in hindsight?

Of course not - it was the only reasonable decision they could make under the circumstances.

The bad decision was on Dennis' part for deciding to be such a controlling asshole. He made the unreasonable decision that caused the breakup of the band and his eventual firing - permanently

Not according to JY. He has Stated "Dennis was good for Styx for the first ten years and after that it was alll about him". So according to JY they could have moved forward without him and Styx would have been better off.

What you said above does not disagree with what I said. In fact, it supports it in some ways. Dennis was not good for Styx in the last 10yrs. His attitude that only his opinion mattered is what tore the band apart.

Dennis took over the wheel and direction of Styx. So, he should take responsibility for it's downfall...and his own. It's no different then Steve Perry having to take responsibility for ROR and Journey's downfall after that album. The Capt. of the Titanic blaming his crew is bullshit...the Capt. needs to take responsibility for the eventual outcome.

"The first rule of leadership - Everything is your fault."

Funny how Dennis fans try to give him so much credit. They say that Tommy and JY owe their careers to Dennis. He wrote all the hit songs, produced every album, came up with the concepts, his leadership made Styx what they were, it was even HIS band. But, when it comes to taking responsibility for the downfall of Styx...well, that was a band thing and has to be shared equally. Bullshit. He pushed himself into the forefront of the band and stuck his neck out...and it Kilroy chopped it off.

Not every DDY fan gives DDY all the credit. I don't think that TS and JY owe their carriers to DDY. It was the efforts of all of them that made the band. That is why I don't feel the current band is Styx. BTW, DDY has taken the blame for pushing KWH on the band, many times.

You are wearing blinders and miss the fact that Dennis HAD to be replaced to continue on. He is no more irreplaceable then Tommy was for Edge. It had to happen for the band to continue on.

If you ran a record label, would you do it for the music or the money?

From what I know about Journey and Styx I would try to invest in a bands long term goals and not short term bubble gum top 40 crap. It takes a lot of time and effort by EVERYBODY to build up a band the way Styx and Journey were. You do not do that by looking solely at charting singles. You build up fan loyalty by releasing entire albums of quality must. You get the fans to crave new music because of it - and the willingness to pay for it before they even hear it the first time. THAT is most important. Concentrating only on the next top 10 single is short-sighted and in the end does not get the full earning potential from the band...especially back in the mid-80's before downloadable 'free' music. You hope for the best with singles, but not REQUIRE a top 10 hit on every album...and in the end produce generic songs that follow the same formula over and over again. Leave that crap to the bands that are nothing but the passing flavor of the month...and are gone after one hit and never heard from again. Styx was better then that.

The simple fact is that the record labels are only concerned about making as much as they can off the success of an artist at the time of their popularity. The music trends and artists can be to hard to forecast for the record labels to be looking at things long term.

That is today's attitude...and is not a 'simple fact'. How many chances after Lady did Styx have to 'make it big?' In today's world, they wouldn't have lasted past their debut. They would definitely be gone after MoM and SiR. The bands that have lasted from the 70's and 80's had labels that nurtured them in their early years to give them a chance at long term success. Even a band like U2 was not so chart friendly in the early years and may have been canned early today. Bon Jovi only had "Runaway" from their debut, and it wasn't exactly a 'hit'. I doubt Def Leppard would last past High'n Dry. You can go on and on and on. Journey's first three albums did nothing on the charts, had NO memorable singles, and they were almost dropped because of it. The label either believes in their artists abilities, or they don't care and only want the cash. In today's world, they only want the cash...so you had better sell from the start. But, that is not the way it always was....and it didn't have to be that way from Styx in the early 80's.

[Monker]

The point is when one person has so much control that they can dictate a Kilroy, or ROR, on a band that doesn't want to write that kind of music, then it is a bad thing. In that type of situation, you can't have a Grand Illusion, or Escape. When one person limits the vision to only himself he drowns out the genius of what a team can bring together. That is what happened to both Styx and Journey. The truly pathetic thing is people like you refuse to see that...yet still call yourself a Styx/Journey fan.

The Real point is, if DDY really had that much control as you say he did it was because the others CHOSE to let him do that.

No, that is YOUR point. MY point is that choosing between making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and being unemployed is not much of a choice. And, now I'll add that you are being just as unreasonable as Dennis was if you believe that it is.

It would be interesting to see detailed specifics of just what they had planned or in mind for Styx going forward at that point. Of course you never get any of those details except, "we wanted more straight ahead rock n' roll material". On that subject. one could say that if they were trying to impose on DDY exactly what types of songs the members could write that can be considered acting like dictators.

That is such a lame and baseless comment. These guys are artists and want to express themselves. Having Dennis at the wheel saying, "no, you have to express yourself within these boundaries and write songs within this specific concept..." Diminishes that ability. If he had done that in tho previous years, I doubt they would have released CB, GI, or POE...and Tommy probably would not have stuck around very long at all.

DDY may have been very persuasive about the direction of the band and concepts for albums but I don't see where he forced them to write certain styles of songs. Their contributions are clearly of their own style.

You are telling me that he didn't force the band to write songs about robots and MMM. You're hilarious.

[StyxCollector]

Put that in context. They broke up after Kilroy and didn't come back together until the mid-90's...and didn't even attempt another album until BNW. There was a HUGE amount of down time within those 20yrs.

You're glossing over Edge. Even though it was without Tommy, it was 7 years after the release of Kilroy (and 6 after CITA). Then they had roughly 4 - 5 years of downtime after that until "Lady '95", and subsequently touring in 1996. Which, if you compare their breakneck pace between 1975 and 1983 (7 studio albums in 8 years), yeah it's a lot of downtime. No one can sustain that. It's not as much downtime as you make it out to be. After 1996 no one was sure we'd get anything else from the "Classic" lineup of Styx (sans John of course) and we got the 1997 tour and BNW. So for a band that was supposedly in near hybernation for 20 years, they did a lot of stuff. Journey broke up and didn't do anything new between 1988 and TBF except the Bill Graham tribute. They had side projects, but outside of catalog releases like the hits album, nothing.

I've also said it before, but most bands (Beatles included) have a good 8 - 10 year run before they break down completely. Even the Stones have had members go. It's no secret that Keith and Mick aren't always best of friends, yet they continued a working relationship (think of the mid-80s Stones around "Harlem Shuffle" especially). Half the reason they did was because the money. They found a way to make it work. 99% of the other bands - like Styx - can't put personal stuff aside to just work so something gives. People grow and generally grow apart. It's life. It's human. These guys are no better than any of us in that regard, and I think that's part of the problem: so many fans put these guys on a pedistal.

There's more to it obviously, but in 1979 they were at the top. In 1999 they were not.

Exactly my point. It's easier to fire the captain when the ship isn't bringing in millions of dollars a year.

Yes, 'success' in the short term as defined by $'s. But, in the end, it was all a huge failure because the band broke up and could never recover.

They did it willingly, which is the bottom line.

No, it's not the 'bottom line'. It's not a simple black and white situation. If anybody arguing this point in this thread had to choose between making hundreds of thousands of $'s a year and being unemployed with an uncertain future, I think the same decision would be made.

No, that is YOUR point. MY point is that choosing between making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and being unemployed is not much of a choice. And, now I'll add that you are being just as unreasonable as Dennis was if you believe that it is.

You're vascillating between "don't go for money" and "well, of course he could be fired for not making them millions". Which is it?

In 1979, if it was all about artistic integrity and how much of an asshole Dennis was, Dennis would have stayed fired. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You want that in this argument.

I'll bring Rush up again - they knew they needed a hit album and while they ultimately got it with 2112, they did it AGAINST the wishes of the record company. That's a set of cojones. Styx didn't show the same cojones. They backed off.

Had they stuck to firing him in 1979, they could have erased things like "First Time" and never done a song like it again (but that "Boat on the River" is a barnburner of a rocker, eh?).

Instead, they decided to make money and not stick to their resolve. Whose fault is that? It's not Dennis'.

You are right to a point - at that point Styx was a machine who had people depending on them (not just the band members). To pack it in would have impacted lots of lives. Anthony Bourdain has a good take on that stuff in his new book when he talks about celebrity chefs and endorsements.

My point is that it is Dennis' character flaws which ended Styx with Kilroy...and why he is no longer in the band. If he could have let go a bit and let the band be a 'band", there would have been a different situation from 1979 - 1999 as well.

You don't think the other guys have character flaws, too? Really?

I don't think Styx would have survived into the 90s even if they had made another album with Tommy post-Kilroy on A&M. I have always stated that Styx would have broken up no matter what.

Dennis could have stayed fired. Was it a bad decision in hindsight?

Of course not - it was the only reasonable decision they could make under the circumstances.

The bad decision was on Dennis' part for deciding to be such a controlling asshole. He made the unreasonable decision that caused the breakup of the band and his eventual firing - permanently

You're so myopic. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Every band has someone who drives the bus to a degree - whether it is creatively, business, touring, whatever. Sterling talks about this in his book. JY has always had a pretty significant role in Styx that isn't always visible. Tommy for awhile was the public face of Styx ... and so on.

When it came to songwriting, Tommy has given Dennis credit for helping him develop his songs.

They may have been somewhat dysfunctional, but what band isn't?

The money was printing itself in 1979, so party on. Everyone in Styx - Dennis, JY, Tommy, Chuck, and John - were responsible for their ultimate downfall in 1983. It wasn't just Dennis.

Dennis took over the wheel and direction of Styx. So, he should take responsibility for it's downfall...and his own. It's no different then Steve Perry having to take responsibility for ROR and Journey's downfall after that album. The Capt. of the Titanic blaming his crew is bullshit...the Capt. needs to take responsibility for the eventual outcome.

"The first rule of leadership - Everything is your fault."

Funny how Dennis fans try to give him so much credit. They say that Tommy and JY owe their careers to Dennis. He wrote all the hit songs, produced every album, came up with the concepts, his leadership made Styx what they were, it was even HIS band. But, when it comes to taking responsibility for the downfall of Styx...well, that was a band thing and has to be shared equally. Bullshit. He pushed himself into the forefront of the band and stuck his neck out...and it Kilroy chopped it off.

You are telling me that he didn't force the band to write songs about robots and MMM. You're hilarious.

I'm not giving him any more credit than anyone else, and yes, Dennis did basically get them all to do the Kilroy concept.

The reality is this: bands are complex creatures with real, live human beings. You wouldn't have the classic lineup of Styx without everyone. They all brought stuff to the table and played their roles. I've never said Styx was his band and the guys were his playthings. If you go back and watch the BTM, the change of "control" happened largely after Cornerstone and being rehired. Look at Tommy's comments starting at 1:59 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqs1Jl0J ... =1&index=3). Then Dennis counters right after. Right there is the crux of the problem and why many Styx fans are still arguing this point 10 years on.

Dennis himself has talked about the whole Kilroy thing in hindsight (including in my interview with him). It's not like he's saying he had no hand in things falling apart.

But it's more than Dennis and robots. Tommy was "medicating" which certainly didn't help matters. Sure, you could say it was because of Dennis but it wouldn't be the only reason I'm sure. Tommy being high may not have helped interaction.

You have the changing tastes in music as well as MTV changing things.

You have a band that was up each other's ass for the better part of 8 years with Tommy and 13+ years with JY, Dennis, Chuck, and John.

Things came to a head and the zit popped in 1984. So to say it was only Dennis is short sighted.

I don't konw why Tommy wrote KMH. Your interpretation may or may not be correct.

Then perhaps you should look it up. I'm very certain that is what the inspiration was.

I've read plenty of interviews with Tommy. As far as I know, he's never come out and said that - point me to your source.

Both of the songs you mentioned were hits. It's the music BUSINESS. It wasn't charity.

Of course they were. So what? Point is that having those 'hits' on every album because Dennis' responsibility and his writing because lost in it and very one dimensional.

Wait a minute ... there were TWO other writers in that band. Tommy can clearly pen a charting song. If they didn't step up to the plate (and let's be honest, we were not getting a hit from JY), that's not Dennis' fault. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy at that point since the band AND the label is putting all their eggs in the Dennis basket. That's a recipe for disaster.

Damn skippy the label wants to make some money.

And, they did not make nearly as much after Kilroy.

The kind of music Styx was doing just wasn't popular in the 80s and would have inevitably cost the band sales; the fact they had some chart success in 1990 is pretty amazing if you think about the climate at the time.

I would argue that even bands like Zep would have had problems as time would have gone on if they stayed together. Outside of Aerosmith who was revived, most of the bands of the 70s died a painful death in the 80s both musically and financially.

AC/DC historically has never sold as many albums, but are known as touring juggernauts.

Styx did make money, just more on hits packages such as Classics and the two GH packages in the 90s. So using the yardstick of making less money after Kilroy isn't even remotely relevant here. As I said, no band can sustain the success they had forever.

If you ran a record label, would you do it for the music or the money?

From what I know about Journey and Styx I would try to invest in a bands long term goals and not short term bubble gum top 40 crap. It takes a lot of time and effort by EVERYBODY to build up a band the way Styx and Journey were. You do not do that by looking solely at charting singles. You build up fan loyalty by releasing entire albums of quality must. You get the fans to crave new music because of it - and the willingness to pay for it before they even hear it the first time. THAT is most important. Concentrating only on the next top 10 single is short-sighted and in the end does not get the full earning potential from the band...especially back in the mid-80's before downloadable 'free' music. You hope for the best with singles, but not REQUIRE a top 10 hit on every album...and in the end produce generic songs that follow the same formula over and over again. Leave that crap to the bands that are nothing but the passing flavor of the month...and are gone after one hit and never heard from again. Styx was better then that.

You're living in a dreamworld of how artists would be cultivated. No one does that anymore; those days are long gone and died in the 70s.

These days you wouldn't have Bruce Springsteen or bands like Yes and Rush. The music industry has always worked on what was popular at the time with very rare exceptions. That's what A&R guys do - find the next big thing. Use 'em up and spit 'em out when they're no longer needed.

For reference, I would strongly suggest you read the book "Exploding" by Stan Cornyn. The way the industry now is largely NO different than it was in the 40s and 50s, just worse off because they were myopic about things like MP3.

You are wearing blinders and miss the fact that Dennis HAD to be replaced to continue on. He is no more irreplaceable then Tommy was for Edge. It had to happen for the band to continue on.

1999 happened. Such is life. And in any one of our jobs, we're ALL replaceable.

Why Dennis is not with Styx is more than Roboto. It's like a marriage that ends up in divorce but you've got shared kids you need to tend to. There will always be a connection, but the parents move on and hopefully are both healthier for it.

[hoagiepete]

You holier than thou types that have this pristine image that Styx could have been half the band they were by "rocking" are so fucking out of your mind that it really is pathetic. But keep drinking JY and Tommy's Kool Aid.

Oh, please, I have been writing these things since 1992 or so...long before you were drinking DDY's bathwater.

I didn't say anything about 'rocking'...that's not the point. Quit making things up.

The point is when one person has so much control that they can dictate a Kilroy, or ROR, on a band that doesn't want to write that kind of music, then it is a bad thing. In that type of situation, you can't have a Grand Illusion, or Escape. When one person limits the vision to only himself he drowns out the genius of what a team can bring together. That is what happened to both Styx and Journey. The truly pathetic thing is people like you refuse to see that...yet still call yourself a Styx/Journey fan.

P.S. Styx is much better known than Rush among the General population. Ask sand average Joe to name a Rush song. Most people can't.

What a foolish thing to say. But, not as foolish as:

And it really worked out horribly for both Styx and Journey didn't it?

I would say when the respective dictators took complete control, the bands being broke up for years, lackluster reunion albums, and tours and albums without their lead singers is not exactly a wonderful thing. If DDY and Steve Perry would have been a bit more humble in the 80's perhaps they could have stayed in their respective bands, instead of them breaking up for years....losing any chance of them rising above their peers and not being lumped in with REO, Foreigner, Kansas, Survivor, etc. As would be said in Journeyville, the stone was cracked when Tommy put his hand through the glass and left Styx. At that point Styx would never return to the glory of GI or POE, or PT. They had jumped the shark. All because one man had pushed the band members to their limits, killing the thing that he loved.

+1

Well put.

The ballads made them a ton of money, but what the success did to the inner workings of the band is what ruined them.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

StyxCollector wrote:

Styx didn't truly get rid of DDY until 1999 - 20 years after the Cornerstone incident.

Monker wrote:
Put that in context. They broke up after Kilroy and didn't come back together until the mid-90's...and didn't even attempt another album until BNW. There was a HUGE amount of down time within those 20yrs.

Do you know why there was a HUGE amount of down time ? It didn't have to do with who was "controlling", who didn't get along, who was going to be fired, who hated who, blah, blah, blah...... EACH member was dealing with, coping or for some relaxing with their personal lives and families, which was needed. Do you know what was going on with each family from mid-80's through mid-90's? Do you know which members have kids? Do you know which members families had health issues that needed to be attended to? Do you know which members were moving into new homes/communities? Which members would attend their kids events, while the kids were still young?

Sheesh, some people think that the members of Styx, past or present just think and dream about the band night after night and not deal with their families and issues.

[StyxCollector]

Heaven forbid these guys try to have a life outside of music, Suite!

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Heaven forbid these guys try to have a life outside of music, Suite!

No kidding. It's sad that a few people on here keep going on and on about why they didn't put an album out every 6 months, who was mad at who, blah, blah blah.

This board reminds me of Days of Our Lives, you can take a break for a while (week, month, year) and it's the same stuff - LOL

One thing of many that I learned was health insurance that I never thought of before. When Styx was signed with A&M records they received health insurance, not the best by all means compared to other companies, but something. After they were dropped, so was their health insurance. They all received a little, I forgot how much the co-pay's were and how much they had to pay out-of-pocket.

Every member or a family member/s were dealing with health issues over the years, whether it was the spouses having kids, drug and alcohol addictions, which led to the counseling, maybe inpatient or outpatient hospital or in JY's case his wife that needed medical attention for years. As most on here know, doctor bills can be very high, even with a good insurance company. Why do you think members of Styx or in most cases members of many other bands rely on touring, it keeps bringing steady money in to pay for these bills, among other bills.

[StyxCollector]

No kidding. It's sad that a few people on here keep going on and on about why they didn't put an album out every 6 months, who was mad at who, blah, blah blah.

Like I said, does anyone really believe that post-1983 you'd get Styx albums at a clip they did from 1971/2 through 1983 - nearly one a year - even if they stayed together? It would never happen. Most artists of that era laugh when they look back at that time and wonder how they did it. Virtually no artist today does that. It's usually at least 2, if not 3 or more years inbetween new albums. Before someone chimes in with someone who's done it, I know there are exceptions, but they're not the norm. Most big bands crank up the machine, maybe record an album, go on the road, and then take some time off.

This board reminds me of Days of Our Lives, you can take a break for a while (week, month, year) and it's the same stuff - LOL

True.

[Monker]

Heaven forbid these guys try to have a life outside of music, Suite!

No kidding. It's sad that a few people on here keep going on and on about why they didn't put an album out every 6 months, who was mad at who, blah, blah blah.

This board reminds me of Days of Our Lives, you can take a break for a while (week, month, year) and it's the same stuff - LOL

Then JY should stop reading the forum and start paying more attention to the things that matter to him.

One thing of many that I learned was health insurance that I never thought of before. When Styx was signed with A&M records they received health insurance, not the best by all means compared to other companies, but something. After they were dropped, so was their health insurance. They all received a little, I forgot how much the co-pay's were and how much they had to pay out-of-pocket.

Every member or a family member/s were dealing with health issues over the years, whether it was the spouses having kids, drug and alcohol addictions, which led to the counseling, maybe inpatient or outpatient hospital or in JY's case his wife that needed medical attention for years. As most on here know, doctor bills can be very high, even with a good insurance company. Why do you think members of Styx or in most cases members of many other bands rely on touring, it keeps bringing steady money in to pay for these bills, among other bills.

So what. That's life. We all have to go through those things. It would happen whether they were in Styx or not. It reminds me of Perry's sappy story of his mother and grandfather dying during the recording of ROR...and Herbie's response of that's life, we all go through those things. You are putting these people in a place they shouldn't be if you suspected such things were not going on and it surprised you.l

But, none of this has anything to do with my point that it ENDED with Kilroy and Tommy's fist through the glass. What happened after that just proves my point that after Kilroy, they would never be back to where they were before.

[Monker]

Put that in context. They broke up after Kilroy and didn't come back together until the mid-90's...and didn't even attempt another album until BNW. There was a HUGE amount of down time within those 20yrs.

You're glossing over Edge. Even though it was without Tommy, it was 7 years after the release of Kilroy (and 6 after CITA).

Of course I am - because that was not the full band that involved in Kilroy...all of the personalities were not being dealt with in the process as they were from Lady '95 onward...and that was my point.

You're vascillating between "don't go for money" and "well, of course he could be fired for not making them millions". Which is it?

It's not that hard to understand. The only reason they kept Dennis was there was too much to lease by kicking him out. I think it unreasonable for people to critique the band for that decision, when they would not have done anything different. It wasn't a real option...Dennis letting go of some of the control WAS an option. He should have seen that nobody was happy with him or the band...and that his attitude was causing it to come to an end.

What I am saying about the songwriting is simply to not write for the charts but what your heart and soul dictates to you. That's where the best music comes. That is where Styx was in the 70's. When Dennis started removing the rest of the bands ability to do that, everything suffered and things started crumbling.

It's not a contradiction. It is two totally different topics.

I'll bring Rush up again - they knew they needed a hit album and while they ultimately got it with 2112, they did it AGAINST the wishes of the record company. That's a set of cojones. Styx didn't show the same cojones. They backed off.

They, they, they, they and they. When Styx 'backed off', they were not a 'they'.

You don't think the other guys have character flaws, too? Really?

of course they do. However, Dennis took over the Captains chair and was steering the ship into the iceberg, not anybody else.

You're so myopic. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Every band has someone who drives the bus to a degree

And, when that Captain takes over as much of the direction of the band as Dennis did, they should be held responsible for the consequences.

I'm not giving him any more credit than anyone else, and yes, Dennis did basically get them all to do the Kilroy concept.

Then, admit that as the person who took over the direction of the band he should be held accountable for the band's downfall. You refuse to do that.

But it's more than Dennis and robots

You're right. It's also Hunchback's and an unwillingness to tour.

You have the changing tastes in music as well as MTV changing things.

Are you serious? In 1983, the music scene was in Styx' favor. Nirvana did not happen until YEARS later. At the very least, they could have survived until 1989 and then tanked like all the other 80's bands did.

Wait a minute ... there were TWO other writers in that band. Tommy can clearly pen a charting song. If they didn't step up to the plate (and let's be honest, we were not getting a hit from JY), that's not Dennis' fault. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy at that point since the band AND the label is putting all their eggs in the Dennis basket. That's a recipe for disaster.

Tommy and JY were forced to write within DDY's concepts and ideas. That is very restrictive place to be in general.

However, I don't think they, especially Tommy, ever wrote songs with a 'this can be a hit' proven formula as Dennis did. IMO, this is where the entire 'we want to rock...' idea comes from. It's not necessarily that they want to 'rock', but that they don't want their writing confined in the way it was from PT on.

Damn skippy the label wants to make some money.

And, they did not make nearly as much after Kilroy.

The kind of music Styx was doing just wasn't popular in the 80s

That is just laughable. It's hard to even take you serious now. Styx was a staple on the radio here. Geez, it was constant in the 80's. To their music wasn't popular is just BS.

and would have inevitably cost the band sales; the fact they had some chart success in 1990 is pretty amazing if you think about the climate at the time.

yeah, why in the world would somebody pick a Styx song in 1990 to add Gulf War references to? Because, the reality is that is the only reason that song became a hit.

I would argue that even bands like Zep would have had problems as time would have gone on if they stayed together.

You can argue that but there is no way to prove that one way or the other. You have no idea where they would have went musicaly...especially when there were so many Zeppelin rip-offs in the 80''s, and the Firm, and Plant's solo albums, and the Honeydrippers. To try to guess what would have happened is pretty futile.

If you ran a record label, would you do it for the music or the money?

From what I know about Journey and Styx I would try to invest in a bands long term goals and not short term bubble gum top 40 crap. It takes a lot of time and effort by EVERYBODY to build up a band the way Styx and Journey were. You do not do that by looking solely at charting singles. You build up fan loyalty by releasing entire albums of quality must. You get the fans to crave new music because of it - and the willingness to pay for it before they even hear it the first time. THAT is most important. Concentrating only on the next top 10 single is short-sighted and in the end does not get the full earning potential from the band...especially back in the mid-80's before downloadable 'free' music. You hope for the best with singles, but not REQUIRE a top 10 hit on every album...and in the end produce generic songs that follow the same formula over and over again. Leave that crap to the bands that are nothing but the passing flavor of the month...and are gone after one hit and never heard from again. Styx was better then that.

You're living in a dreamworld of how artists would be cultivated. No one does that anymore; those days are long gone and died in the 70s.

We were talking about 198x...not today. Today is not 1983.

Why Dennis is not with Styx is more than Roboto.

Yes, it's also Hunchback and his unwillingness to tour, and general control issues.

[Boomchild]

Not according to JY. He has Stated "Dennis was good for Styx for the first ten years and after that it was alll about him". So according to JY they could have moved forward without him and Styx would have been better off.

What you said above does not disagree with what I said. In fact, it supports it in some ways. Dennis was not good for Styx in the last 10yrs. His attitude that only his opinion mattered is what tore the band apart.

What I meant is that if JY felt that way then he should have opted to let the firing of DDY in '79 stand. As you have pointed out none of them are irreplaceable. So that being the case Styx would have been able to carry on just fine without DDY post '79 and the remaining members would be happy.

Dennis took over the wheel and direction of Styx. So, he should take responsibility for it's downfall...and his own. It's no different then Steve Perry having to take responsibility for ROR and Journey's downfall after that album. The Capt. of the Titanic blaming his crew is bullshit...the Capt. needs to take responsibility for the eventual outcome.

"The first rule of leadership - Everything is your fault."

Funny how Dennis fans try to give him so much credit. They say that Tommy and JY owe their careers to Dennis. He wrote all the hit songs, produced every album, came up with the concepts, his leadership made Styx what they were, it was even HIS band. But, when it comes to taking responsibility for the downfall of Styx...well, that was a band thing and has to be shared equally. Bullshit. He pushed himself into the forefront of the band and stuck his neck out...and it Kilroy chopped it off.

Not every DDY fan gives DDY all the credit. I don't think that TS and JY owe their carriers to DDY. It was the efforts of all of them that made the band. That is why I don't feel the current band is Styx. BTW, DDY has taken the blame for pushing KWH on the band, many times.

You are wearing blinders and miss the fact that Dennis HAD to be replaced to continue on. He is no more irreplaceable then Tommy was for Edge. It had to happen for the band to continue on.

It's just my opinion. To me the current Styx is not Styx. It was all the members of the classic line up. I enjoyed Glen's time in Styx with EOTC but it still did not feel totally Styx to me. It is unfair for you to lump all the folks that are fans of DDY into one category.

From what I know about Journey and Styx I would try to invest in a bands long term goals and not short term bubble gum top 40 crap. It takes a lot of time and effort by EVERYBODY to build up a band the way Styx and Journey were. You do not do that by looking solely at charting singles. You build up fan loyalty by releasing entire albums of quality must. You get the fans to crave new music because of it - and the willingness to pay for it before they even hear it the first time. THAT is most important. Concentrating only on the next top 10 single is short-sighted and in the end does not get the full earning potential from the band...especially back in the mid-80's before downloadable 'free' music. You hope for the best with singles, but not REQUIRE a top 10 hit on every album...and in the end produce generic songs that follow the same formula over and over again. Leave that crap to the bands that are nothing but the passing flavor of the month...and are gone after one hit and never heard from again. Styx was better then that.

The simple fact is that the record labels are only concerned about making as much as they can off the success of an artist at the time of their popularity. The music trends and artists can be to hard to forecast for the record labels to be looking at things long term.

That is today's attitude...and is not a 'simple fact'. How many chances after Lady did Styx have to 'make it big?' In today's world, they wouldn't have lasted past their debut. They would definitely be gone after MoM and SiR. The bands that have lasted from the 70's and 80's had labels that nurtured them in their early years to give them a chance at long term success. Even a band like U2 was not so chart friendly in the early years and may have been canned early today. Bon Jovi only had "Runaway" from their debut, and it wasn't exactly a 'hit'. I doubt Def Leppard would last past High'n Dry. You can go on and on and on. Journey's first three albums did nothing on the charts, had NO memorable singles, and they were almost dropped because of it. The label either believes in their artists abilities, or they don't care and only want the cash. In today's world, they only want the cash...so you had better sell from the start. But, that is not the way it always was....and it didn't have to be that way from Styx in the early 80's.

Record labels have been this way for a long time. I would say more so starting around '80. It is just more evident now then before. They just drop artists at a faster pace today then before. Which is due to the dwindling profits in the business.

[Boomchild]

The point is when one person has so much control that they can dictate a Kilroy, or ROR, on a band that doesn't want to write that kind of music, then it is a bad thing. In that type of situation, you can't have a Grand Illusion, or Escape. When one person limits the vision to only himself he drowns out the genius of what a team can bring together. That is what happened to both Styx and Journey. The truly pathetic thing is people like you refuse to see that...yet still call yourself a Styx/Journey fan.

The Real point is, if DDY really had that much control as you say he did it was because the others CHOSE to let him do that.

No, that is YOUR point. MY point is that choosing between making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and being unemployed is not much of a choice. And, now I'll add that you are being just as unreasonable as Dennis was if you believe that it is.

So. does that fit the mold of no one is irreplaceable in Styx? Are you saying that they could not continue without DDY?
They had no other choices?

It would be interesting to see detailed specifics of just what they had planned or in mind for Styx going forward at that point. Of course you never get any of those details except, "we wanted more straight ahead rock n' roll material". On that subject. one could say that if they were trying to impose on DDY exactly what types of songs the members could write that can be considered acting like dictators.

That is such a lame and baseless comment. These guys are artists and want to express themselves. Having Dennis at the wheel saying, "no, you have to express yourself within these boundaries and write songs within this specific concept..." Diminishes that ability. If he had done that in tho previous years, I doubt they would have released CB, GI, or POE...and Tommy probably would not have stuck around very long at all.

Same could be said with respect for Babe and First Time. They were trying to tell Dennis to express himself within boundaries. So they they all were doing that in one form or another.

DDY may have been very persuasive about the direction of the band and concepts for albums but I don't see where he forced them to write certain styles of songs. Their contributions are clearly of their own style.

You are telling me that he didn't force the band to write songs about robots and MMM. You're hilarious.

No not exactly, I meant it from the point in the style of the music not the lyric content. At any rate they agreed to it for what ever reasons they chose to. Otherwise the KWH project would have been scrapped.

[Boomchild]

What I am saying about the songwriting is simply to not write for the charts but what your heart and soul dictates to you. That's where the best music comes. That is where Styx was in the 70's. When Dennis started removing the rest of the bands ability to do that, everything suffered and things started crumbling.

What you are saying about DDy's song writing process is not correct. He looks at it from the point of view that a great song is a great song no matter what style it is. He doesn't 100% believe in putting songs into categories or to be a "Hit Single". Go watch his interviews on ArtistHouse and Retrorewind to get a better idea of how he approaches his song writing.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Boomchild wrote:
Not according to JY. He has Stated "Dennis was good for Styx for the first ten years and after that it was alll about him". So according to JY they could have moved forward without him and Styx would have been better off.

Monker wrote:
What you said above does not disagree with what I said. In fact, it supports it in some ways. Dennis was not good for Styx in the last 10yrs. His attitude that only his opinion mattered is what tore the band apart.

Boomchild wrote:
What I meant is that if JY felt that way then he should have opted to let the firing of DDY in '79 stand. As you have pointed out none of them are irreplaceable. So that being the case Styx would have been able to carry on just fine without DDY post '79 and the remaining members would be happy.

There weren't enough "votes" to have him fired in 1979. 1 yes, 2 no, 1 on the border (from what I heard from a friend, who heard it from a friend - you can go in the REO song now)