MR

Posted: **Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:28 pm**

Read this from the another board.
Here's the latest news on Chuck.

Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley Leads 2006 Gay Games Champions

http://www.gaywired.com/article.cfm?section=9&id=7212

9.27.05 (Chicago, IL) - Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley, Styx co-founder Chuck Panozzo, and U.S. Women's World Cup Champion soccer goalie Saskia Webber are just three of more than fifty '2006 Gay Games Champions' announced this week by the Chicago organizers of Gay Games VII Sports and Cultural Festival. The 2006 Gay Games Champions are prominent individuals - gay or straight - who have agreed to lend their support to the Gay Games coming to Chicago 15-22 July 2006. Mayor Daley will serve as Honorary Co-Chair of the 2006 Gay Games Champions program. Co-chairing the program with him are Chicago City Treasurer Judy Rice and openly gay Chicago Alderman Tom Tunney.

"Chicago has a long history of having great sporting events, and we look forward to being the host city for the 2006 Gay Games," said Mayor Daley. "Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Chicagoans have contributed substantially to the development of Chicago. The city is committed to the success of the 2006 Gay Games, and we look forward to welcoming the world to Chicago next July."

"Like Mayor Daley, many of the 2006 Gay Games Champions have a long history of support for the LGBT community," said Brian McGuinness, Gay Games Chicago Executive Director. "Some are offering their support for an event like this for the first time, and many will compete in their favorite sport as a way of demonstrating their commitment. For more than twenty years the Gay Games movement has brought people together. There is no other event in the world like the Gay Games and the 2006 Gay Games Champions will help Chicago continue that legacy."

2006 Gay Games Champions include:

U.S. Representative Barney Frank - Elected to the U.S. House of Representatives from Massachusetts in 1980, Barney Frank has been outspoken on many human rights issues as well as issues of gay and lesbian rights during his entire political career. In 2004, a survey of Capitol Hill staffers gave Frank the title of the most intelligent - and the funniest - Democratic member of the House of Representatives. In 1996, he said "I'm used to being in the minority. I'm a left-handed gay Jew. I've never felt, automatically, a member of any majority."

World Class Athlete Saskia Webber - During a brilliant college soccer career, Saskia Webber was a member of the U.S. National Team, earning a reputation as one of the toughest goalkeepers in the league. After winning the World Cup in 1999, Saskia played with great success in the WUSA for Philadelphia (2000-2001) and the New York Power (2002-2003). She is currently the host of On the Road to the Gay Games, a weekly show on Q Television Network featuring the inspiring stories of Gay Games athletes and cultural participants.

Musician Chuck Panozzo - Bass player Chuck Panozzo formed the rock band Styx with his brother John Panozzo and Dennis De Young in the 1960s. Hits like "Lady," "Come Sail Away," "Mr. Roboto," and "Babe" made Styx one of the hottest rock bands of the 1970s and 80s.

Def Jam Poet Staceyann Chin - A resident of New York City and Jamaican native, Staceyann Chinn has been an out poet and political activist since 1998. She has won more than a dozen international poetry slams and was featured on the hit HBO series, Def Poetry Jam. She was one of the original cast members of the Tony Award-winning Russell Simmons Def Poetry Jam on Broadway.

Dance Legend Joel Hall - Chicagoan Joel Hall is a world-renowned dancer and choreographer, having begun his dance career in 1968 under the tutelage of Ed Parrish before moving to New York where he studied under Denise Johnson. In 1974, he co-founded the Chicago City Theatre Company, later renamed the Joel Hall Dance Center where he still serves as artistic director and principal choreographer.

U.S. Representative Tammy Baldwin - Tammy Baldwin was elected in 1999 to the U.S. House of Representatives from Wisconsin. Born and raised in Madison, she was the first woman elected to the U.S. Congress from the state of Wisconsin and the first openly gay person who was not an incumbent to be elected to the U.S. House of Representatives.

The full list of 2006 Gay Games Champions is still in formation and is listed on the Gay Games Chicago website at www.gaygameschicago.org.

© 2005 GayWired.com, All Rights Reserved

Posted: **Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:07 am**

Maybe they should call them "The Flame Games" ? ( Groan ! )

Posted: **Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:20 am**

Ok at the extreme risk of being blasted by the liberals I must post. Being "Gay" (homosexual) like being "straight" (hetrosexual) is a sexual choice or a sexual predisposition and I make no comments as to which if any of these two sexual predilections is right wrong or indifferent. I really do not care if a person is gay or straight, but this is what I do not get...................Why is there a need for "Gay Games VII Sports and Cultural Festival". I am being sincere here I do not understand why a persons sexual inclinations has to do with sports or any type of festival. Ok lets say that I am really into sex with midgets, vertically challenged, little people, dwarfs or whatever the current politically correct designation is. Do I go out and start all kinds of events promoting my sexual desires and tie it into a public or private event?

You may all hate after this but I am sorry why is it neccasary for the gay community to have gay pride parades and other public events. Why should your natural sexual tendencies elicit pride? I am straight and do not think a thing of it. Maybe the in your face gay public relations statagey should be questioned.

While I do not condone the gay lifestyle I really would defend any one who is attacked , criticized or in any way discriminated due to being gay. That said I keep my sexual preferences, desires and kinky fantasies private. Why can't they?

Posted: **Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:19 am**

OSL, I understand what you are saying. There is a difficult to distinguish line between pride in who you are and wanting to be treated like everyone else. Equal Opportunity/anti-discrimination acts have been full of this as well. You would never see a United Caucasian College Fund! but being white, I cannot apply to the United Negro College Fund. Double Standard! And if someone were gay and competing in the Olympics, they cannot be kicked out or not included. But a straight person obviously cannot be a part of the Gay Olympics. And we are not allowed to have a Straight Olympics. Again, Double Standard.

But that is what we get for years of wrongful persecution I guess...

Posted: **Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:11 am**

But that is what we get for years of wrongful persecution I guess...

True but why does the pendulm have to swing so far. I am not responsible for the sins of my father. That said perhaps we do have to consider how to mitigate past wrongs.

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:17 am**

Onestill and jrnyman:

I would probably have to agree with your posts. I also cannot help but think that any kind of event for only straight people would get blasted for discriminating against homosexuals, yet an event like this generally gets applauded. I also do not condone the gay lifestyle but certainly wish no ill upon their community. I'm certain there are things about my lifestyle that others don't condone, but who am I to judge?

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:54 pm**

Wrongful persecurion, perhaps. It's a good point, and believe it or not, one I tend to agree with. We have black history month, gay pride weeks at Disney, etc, but you get a bunch of straight whities together for a pride parade and you have a KKK rally. I think it stems from years of feeling oppressed by the masses in society. Plus, a lot of these special interest groups have sort of a fellowship thing going and just want to get out and have fun sometimes. That would be my guess.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:16 am**

I don't know if this relates properly, but I wanted to vent a little here:

Columbus Day is coming up. Every year we have a rather large Columbus Day Parade. It has also become a sort of Italian-American Pride Day. But every year it is marred by Native American protesters. I understand the plight of the Native Americans. I understand that Christopher Columbus brought a lot of 'bad things' to the peoples of the Americas. But I also understand the reasoning behind celebrating the man who 'discovered' America. Furthermore, one Native American woman has written the Mayor and has attempted to virtually blackmail the government. She has given a list of 'demands' the organization wants to see happen 'or their will continue to be protests'. The woman is obviously 'well-educated'. Does she think she would have gained that education had the Europeans not settled the America's?

I think the worst thing about this is that we, as a nation, are not celebrating or exploiting any of the negative actions caused by Christopher Columbus' arrival. We are merely celebrating the 'beginning' of our national history.

Sorry for venting a little...this just steamed me. Blackmailing the government!!

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:02 am**

jrnyman28 wrote:I don't know if this relates properly, but I wanted to vent a little here:

Columbus Day is coming up. Every year we have a rather large Columbus Day Parade. It has also become a sort of Italian-American Pride Day. But every year it is marred by Native American protesters. I understand the plight of the Native Americans. I understand that Christopher Columbus brought a lot of 'bad things' to the peoples of the Americas. But I also understand the reasoning behind celebrating the man who 'discovered' America. Furthermore, one Native American woman has written the Mayor and has attempted to virtually blackmail the government. She has given a list of 'demands' the organization wants to see happen 'or their will continue to be protests'. The woman is obviously 'well-educated'. Does she think she would have gained that education had the Europeans not settled the America's?

I think the worst thing about this is that we, as a nation, are not celebrating or exploiting any of the negative actions caused by Christopher Columbus' arrival. We are merely celebrating the 'beginning' of our national history.

Sorry for venting a little...this just steamed me. Blackmailing the government!!

This may come as no surprise to anyone, but here in South Dakota, it actually IS Native American day, not Columbus day. Again, this action of changing it in one or two states(isn't it in Arizona too?) is along the lines of this entire conversation, with which I agree with the general consensus of a double standard.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:05 am**

In fact, here is what I found about why SD changed it.

To: All people of the world
Congress of the United States
Senate of the United States
President of the United States

We the undersigned come together before you to request that each of these governing bodies take all necessary action to bring about a Federal Holiday for Native American Elected Leaders, To include Congressional hearings on the racial exclusion of Native Americans in movies, television, sports advertising, music companies, etc.

With the special government to government relationship between the Indian Government of America and the Federal Government it is fitting for the Federal Government to enact this holiday, and conduct Congressional hearings.

Indian governments and the people they represent are requesting that the federal government bring about a National Holiday for Native Americans to be celebrated by all citizens of America and people around the world.

This holiday would pay tribute to Indian Tribal Leaders to include Alaskan Leaders and Hawaiian Leaders. This holiday would also pay tribute to those that endured the world's longest holocaust and most costly in human lives.

It is further stated that no Indian Government nor its people find reason to celebrate and pay for Columbus Day. Seventeen states do not recognize Columbus Day. The state of South Dakota has changed Columbus day to Native American Day.

Therefore be it resolved that the Federal Government should reevaluate Columbus Day by moving it back to its original day the second Wednesday of October and not be a tax paid holiday as is St. Patrick's Day and Octoberfest, and make the second Monday of October a Federal holiday for Native Americans.

The polls we conducted across the country show that the vast majority of Americans prefer changing Columbus Day as to creating a whole new holiday.

It is inappropriate for Indian children and children of America to celebrate Columbus discovering a nation of people and not having a holiday paying tribute to the people of those nations.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:33 am**

I applaud a National holiday to celebrate the Native Americans.
I had no idea that 17 states do not recognize Columbus Day.
I guess I can see the idea of not having a day of observation (schools, banks, etc closed). But I don't know, it is a pretty big day for our national history. I don't think Native American children are being forced to 'honor' Columbus by not going to school that day. And I am not sure it is fair to have a paid holiday for Native Americans and NOT for Columbus Day. Why can't they either BOTH be paid holidays or NEITHER be paid holidays.
I can see why it is a touchy situation, but this is another case of this generation being held accountable for the 'sins of our fore-fathers'. And the fact that someone is trying to coerce the government through a form of blackmail is ridiculous.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:32 am**

jrnyman28 wrote:I applaud a National holiday to celebrate the Native Americans.
I had no idea that 17 states do not recognize Columbus Day.
I guess I can see the idea of not having a day of observation (schools, banks, etc closed). But I don't know, it is a pretty big day for our national history. I don't think Native American children are being forced to 'honor' Columbus by not going to school that day. And I am not sure it is fair to have a paid holiday for Native Americans and NOT for Columbus Day. Why can't they either BOTH be paid holidays or NEITHER be paid holidays.
I can see why it is a touchy situation, but this is another case of this generation being held accountable for the 'sins of our fore-fathers'. And the fact that someone is trying to coerce the government through a form of blackmail is ridiculous.

If we can't be responcible for what our forefathers did,at least we can be responcible for who we are going to be forefathers for.
Are we?????

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:51 am**

gr8dane wrote:
jrnyman28 wrote:I applaud a National holiday to celebrate the Native Americans.
I had no idea that 17 states do not recognize Columbus Day.
I guess I can see the idea of not having a day of observation (schools, banks, etc closed). But I don't know, it is a pretty big day for our national history. I don't think Native American children are being forced to 'honor' Columbus by not going to school that day. And I am not sure it is fair to have a paid holiday for Native Americans and NOT for Columbus Day. Why can't they either BOTH be paid holidays or NEITHER be paid holidays.
I can see why it is a touchy situation, but this is another case of this generation being held accountable for the 'sins of our fore-fathers'. And the fact that someone is trying to coerce the government through a form of blackmail is ridiculous.

If we can't be responcible for what our forefathers did,at least we can be responcible for who we are going to be forefathers for.
Are we?????

A little hard to say since we won't know what values and morals the future generation will hold. We can think that what we are espousing right now in the name of political correctness is what the future will want, but who knows. If we look at how much we differ from our forefathers in terms of what we want and/or accept as an indication...then try to guess what the future wants...tough thing to get right.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:11 am**

gr8dane wrote:If we can't be responcible for what our forefathers did,at least we can be responcible for who we are going to be forefathers for.
Are we?????

I think we are all trying. But how is protesting a celebration of the man creditted with discovering our nation going to change the past. And blackmailing the government is wrong.

I think education is the answer in this case. And it doesn't need to be done through protesting. However, all people's have the right to speak and I do not stand in the way of that. I just don't agree with their methods.

Native Americans need to find a way to ensure that proper historical perspective is taught in the schools. THAT will aid our future generations that we are the fore-fathers of!

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:54 am**

Lets just abolish ALL holidays.......after all, Christmas and Easter are offensive to all non-Christians, the French and English probably despise Independance day, the Unemployed probably hate Labor Day, pacifists probably spend Memorial Day lamenting that there were wars at all, heck, New Years probably offends the Old Year !!!!

or Maybe.......

We could just roll them all into 1....we could call it POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DAY, and it could be celebrated by EVERYONE !!! well, except for Government workers and a majority of the labor force who would lose a lot of paid days off.

And as far as celebration of cultural Diversity, lets just cancel St Patricks Day, Oktoberfest, Fish Fry's, and any celebrations that dont include everyone......heck, lets even cacnel the Black Entertainment awards, or open em up to all races !

As a famous songwriter once wrote " deep inside we're all the same" lets just abolish everything that distinguishes one of us from another....hey ! let's add a 2nd holiday to our list....we can call in VANILLA DAY, or maybe VANILLA/CHOCOLATE/ STRAWBERRY/PEACH day, cus someone might think its about the COLOR of the Ice Cream, not the blandness, and we dont want to offend anyone....do we ? :roll:

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:16 am**

classicstyxfan wrote:Lets just abolish ALL holidays.......after all, Christmas and Easter are offensive to all non-Christians

Why would that be? Christmas has it's roots as a Roman holday celebrating the god Jupiter. Easter has it's roots as a wiccan (witchcraft) holiday celebrating the renewing time of Spring. The way most people celebrate them, with trees and lights and bunnies and eggs, and most importantly - days off work, have NOTHING to do with Christianity.

And, in the reverse, many Christians will let their kids dress up and beg for candy soon.

the French and English probably despise Independance day

They despise it so much that the French gave us the Statue of Liberty and the English are probably our closest ally in the world.

the Unemployed probably hate Labor Day

Why would that be? Without socialist policies like unemployment, they would be even further into poverty.

pacifists probably spend Memorial Day lamenting that there were wars at al

Or, they don't even recognize that fact, and look at it as most people - the holiday where you give flowers to dead people.

heck, New Years probably offends the Old Year !!!!

I don't know...I saw this movie once where Baby New Year did nothing but cry cuz he had big ears. What happened to last Baby New Year didn't seem to even enter his mind. Selfish bastard.

We could just roll them all into 1....we could call it POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DAY

That day is whenever the next Presidential election Day is...because it seems like almost everybody in this country has their 'political correctness' beliefs, and everybody who disputes those are damned.

well, except for Government workers and a majority of the labor force who would lose a lot of paid days off.

Yep, can't take days off away...it does nothing but empower the unions.

And as far as celebration of cultural Diversity, lets just cancel St Patricks Day, Oktoberfest, Fish Fry's, and any celebrations that dont include everyone......heck, lets even cacnel the Black Entertainment awards, or open em up to all races !

Sorry, but I don't believe those are state sponsered holidays. The closest would be Martin Luther King day...don't think you are gonna get far taking that one away!

As a famous songwriter once wrote " deep inside we're all the same" lets just abolish everything that distinguishes one of us from another...

Sounds like a George Orwell day.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:16 am**

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:07 pm**

jrnyman28 wrote:
gr8dane wrote:If we can't be responcible for what our forefathers did,at least we can be responcible for who we are going to be forefathers for.
Are we?????

I think we are all trying. But how is protesting a celebration of the man creditted with discovering our nation going to change the past. And blackmailing the government is wrong.

I think education is the answer in this case. And it doesn't need to be done through protesting. However, all people's have the right to speak and I do not stand in the way of that. I just don't agree with their methods.

Native Americans need to find a way to ensure that proper historical perspective is taught in the schools. THAT will aid our future generations that we are the fore-fathers of!

I do not disagree with you.It sure ain't easy.
I guess the difficulty is when some people want everybody to have the same morals as themselves and tries to tell everybody.
When i wrote that bit my mind went in a different direction also,but forgot to mention that.I was also thinking about pollution which the industrialized countries are champions at.But that was not what was being discussed .Scuse me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:33 am**

my comments yesterday were of course mostly made tongue-in-cheek.......I do get tired of the over-abundance of political correctness in the world tho.

The city I grew up in recently banned smoking in all public buildings, including Bars.........many small bars have quickly become on the verge of being insolvent, because much of their former client base now drives a few extra miles to differnt establishments where they can enjoy a cigarette without government interference........staff at these bars is having trouble paying rent/mortgage and other bills because their tip relateed income has plunged. and people who have been drinking now must drive further to get home after their time out :shock:

but hey, it's VERY politically correct !

Posted: **Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:46 am**

I am not a smoker, but even I disagree with citywide smoking bans.

Posted: **Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:02 am**

I passionately dislike smoking, it killed my grandfather, as it will eventually do to my father.......that said, unless it's made illegal, people should be able to do so in a private business if the owner of that business permits it. those who dissaprove can choose to spend their money at establishments that dont allow smoking.

Posted: **Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:54 pm**

WOW !!!! You guys and gals have surprised me. I have assumed most of the posters here are liberal democrats and expected to be chastised for my origanal post copied here............................

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:20 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok at the extreme risk of being blasted by the liberals I must post. Being "Gay" (homosexual) like being "straight" (hetrosexual) is a sexual choice or a sexual predisposition and I make no comments as to which if any of these two sexual predilections is right wrong or indifferent. I really do not care if a person is gay or straight, but this is what I do not get...................Why is there a need for "Gay Games VII Sports and Cultural Festival". I am being sincere here I do not understand why a persons sexual inclinations has to do with sports or any type of festival. Ok lets say that I am really into sex with midgets, vertically challenged, little people, dwarfs or whatever the current politically correct designation is. Do I go out and start all kinds of events promoting my sexual desires and tie it into a public or private event?

You may all hate after this but I am sorry why is it neccasary for the gay community to have gay pride parades and other public events. Why should your natural sexual tendencies elicit pride? I am straight and do not think a thing of it. Maybe the in your face gay public relations statagey should be questioned.

While I do not condone the gay lifestyle I really would defend any one who is attacked , criticized or in any way discriminated due to being gay. That said I keep my sexual preferences, desires and kinky fantasies private. Why can't they?
_________________

Clearly I am once again "OSL" it seems that at the risk of offending even the smallest minority we will disregard the opinion of the majority. Case in point (by the way I am a cafetaria catholic not a religious zealot) the ongoing controversy about having a moment of silent meditation at public school (yes some kids might actually use this time to pray) continues to be an issue with the 2% of hard core athiests who are offended by this voluntary activity, thus the 98% majority cannot exercise thier freedom of religion and say a simple prayer to God, Jesus, Allah or whomever they choose. How is this not stupid! When are people going to wake up and realize that this great nation should celebrate diversity without condeming the majority?

Posted: **Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:22 pm**

Clearly I am once again "OSL" it seems that at the risk of offending even the smallest minority we will disregard the opinion of the majority. Case in point (by the way I am a cafetaria catholic not a religious zealot) the ongoing controversy about having a moment of silent meditation at public school (yes some kids might actually use this time to pray) continues to be an issue with the 2% of hard core athiests who are offended by this voluntary activity, thus the 98% majority cannot exercise thier freedom of religion and say a simple prayer to God, Jesus, Allah or whomever they choose. How is this not stupid! When are people going to wake up and realize that this great nation should celebrate diversity without condeming the majority?

This 'idea' is nothing but a political ploy to piss off righ wingt'ers when the issue is shot down. There is absolutely NO reason for a 'moment of silence' in a public school. If it is so important for your kid to pray before school, why not simply DO IT AT HOME BEFORE HE LEAVES, or send him to a Christian school? Why does it HAVE to be at a PUBLIC school?

I also find it VERY hypocritical to say this proposal is a 'celebration of diversity'...If these same kids were taught how other religions embrace their version of God(s), they would throw a fit about how public school is gone to hell. "How dare they teach my child how to worship Buddha!"

Finaly, when you open this door, things are going to come through which you are NOT going to like. What if the kid next to your child decides to draw a pentagram and start praying to Satan? THAT is the door you want to open....and it should stay shut. Schools are for learning, not practicing religion.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:17 am**

Monker wrote:This 'idea' is nothing but a political ploy to piss off righ wingt'ers when the issue is shot down. There is absolutely NO reason for a 'moment of silence' in a public school. If it is so important for your kid to pray before school, why not simply DO IT AT HOME BEFORE HE LEAVES, or send him to a Christian school? Why does it HAVE to be at a PUBLIC school?

I also find it VERY hypocritical to say this proposal is a 'celebration of diversity'...If these same kids were taught how other religions embrace their version of God(s), they would throw a fit about how public school is gone to hell. "How dare they teach my child how to worship Buddha!"

Finaly, when you open this door, things are going to come through which you are NOT going to like. What if the kid next to your child decides to draw a pentagram and start praying to Satan? THAT is the door you want to open....and it should stay shut. Schools are for learning, not practicing religion.

Nothing against you, OSL, but Monker, you hit the nail on the head. Again. Thanks!

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:54 pm**

Monker wrote:
This 'idea' is nothing but a political ploy to piss off righ wingt'ers when the issue is shot down. There is absolutely NO reason for a 'moment of silence' in a public school. If it is so important for your kid to pray before school, why not simply DO IT AT HOME BEFORE HE LEAVES, or send him to a Christian school? Why does it HAVE to be at a PUBLIC school?

I also find it VERY hypocritical to say this proposal is a 'celebration of diversity'...If these same kids were taught how other religions embrace their version of God(s), they would throw a fit about how public school is gone to hell. "How dare they teach my child how to worship Buddha!"

Finaly, when you open this door, things are going to come through which you are NOT going to like. What if the kid next to your child decides to draw a pentagram and start praying to Satan? THAT is the door you want to open....and it should stay shut. Schools are for learning, not practicing religion.

Nothing against you, OSL, but Monker, you hit the nail on the head. Again. Thanks!
_________________
No offense taken Zan I enjoy a debate and while I may have strong opinions, before I defend my stance on an arguement I try and understand and digest the rebutal. While some may see it as a sign of weakness I feel that in a trully open and honest debate that each side may in fact concede some points and in the end find that there is more common ground than at the beggining of the discusion.

With that said Zan let me respond to Monikers "hit the nail on the head response"............Moniker says

There is absolutely NO reason for a 'moment of silence' in a public school. If it is so important for your kid to pray before school, why not simply DO IT AT HOME BEFORE HE LEAVES, or send him to a Christian school? Why does it HAVE to be at a PUBLIC school?

The world today is a much smaller place than ever before., with the explosion of the internet and CNN and the hundreds of channels of cable television the reality of terrorism, natural disasters and global political unrest is greater than ever before. To me, for a school day to begin with a Principle, Teacher or other school official asking the students and teachers to observe of moment of contemplation and silent reflection following the reading of the pledge of alliegence, would in no way insult, infringe or discriminate anyones rights. If this moment were spent in prayer that would be a personal choice. What I have described is not a covert way of bringing prayer into the public school. It is simply what I have called it "a moment of silence"

Moniker says

I also find it VERY hypocritical to say this proposal is a 'celebration of diversity'...If these same kids were taught how other religions embrace their version of God(s), they would throw a fit about how public school is gone to hell. "How dare they teach my child how to worship Buddha!"

Perhaps it would be best described as a celabration of both diversity and unity as this moment can be used pray to whomever or whatever. It can just be a thoughtful silence or a whimsical daydream at no point do I advocate the instruction of any religion. I do howevever advocate a positive affirmation of the greatness of this United States.

Moniker says

Finaly, when you open this door, things are going to come through which you are NOT going to like. What if the kid next to your child decides to draw a pentagram and start praying to Satan? THAT is the door you want to open....and it should stay shut. Schools are for learning, not practicing religion

During a moment of silence the likelyhood that a devil worshipping child is going to start channelling evil demons is about as likeley as the Catholic kid next to him pulling out a vial of holy water and begining an exercism.

Zan how can you say Moniker hits the nail on the head when his final arguement uses an example that is ridiculous. And the final statement sounds like I have been put in my place. The only problem is that I agree with it "Schools are for learning, not practicing religion"

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:32 pm**

ah........then, what is your stance about removing the words "under God"
from the pledge ? ( at least when taught/said in the school setting )

I think this is the question that brings out a persons real feekings about religeon in schools ...

presents a dilemma to those professing to be christians AND church/state separatists dont you think ? God would surely like his respect from those who believe in him, dont you think ?

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:52 pm**

onestilllearning wrote:Monker wrote:

Finaly, when you open this door, things are going to come through which you are NOT going to like. What if the kid next to your child decides to draw a pentagram and start praying to Satan? THAT is the door you want to open....and it should stay shut. Schools are for learning, not practicing religion

During a moment of silence the likelyhood that a devil worshipping child is going to start channelling evil demons is about as likeley as the Catholic kid next to him pulling out a vial of holy water and begining an exercism.

Zan how can you say Moniker hits the nail on the head when his final arguement uses an example that is ridiculous. And the final statement sounds like I have been put in my place. The only problem is that I agree with it "Schools are for learning, not practicing religion"

I agree with it because with freedom of religion comes freedom of ALL religion, and I do think that a lot of those wishing for more public prayer would be appalled and even outraged if those precious moments were being used to worhsip a god they didn't understand or agree with. Satan included.

I think it's better that religion of any kind should be left at home. The "ridiculous" example Monker gave is only one example that can and will happen in our society today. There are many others you might not even think about. Many people that want religion to be brought into society actually only mean their religion, or acceptable religions. And who will decide what's acceptable to worhsip in schools and ballparks? It's way too big a can, and the worms would be everywhere.

You aren't being put in your place. You stated your opinions tactfully and with thought. I just happened to agree with Monker's thoughts on the matter. "Praying" is talking to or communicating with a god. "Channeling demons" is talking to or communicating with evil spirits. I don't see much difference in the two to be "holy" honest. ;-)

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:05 am**

classicstyxfan wrote:ah........then, what is your stance about removing the words "under God"
from the pledge ? ( at least when taught/said in the school setting )

I think this is the question that brings out a persons real feekings about religeon in schools ...

presents a dilemma to those professing to be christians AND church/state separatists dont you think ? God would surely like his respect from those who believe in him, dont you think ?

Personally, for me, I think it's silly to remove it (and make a federal case out of, for sure). On the other hand, I can understand how someone who doesn't believe in the words might find it silly to say them and maybe even be resentful that they're supposed to. (Again, I think they should just get over this one - as there are more important things to obsess over, but that's purely my own opinion on the matter)

However, if we're truly a nation which supposedly participates in the separation of church and state, then how does the GOVERNMENT removing those words from our National Pledge (which I also find a bit trite) have any bearing on the respect "God" gets from those who believe in him? Those who believe in him should be repsecting their god through practicing their religion, not pledging to their country.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:58 am**

presents a dilemma to those professing to be christians AND church/state separatists dont you think ? God would surely like his respect from those who believe in him, dont you think ?

God wants you to pledge your allgence to HIM, not to a country or a flag.

The pledge itself should conflict with Jewish and Christian beliefs. Are there not stories in the Bible where people REFUSE to take oaths towards kings because of their beliefs in God? Could not facing a flag and pledging alegence to 'it' also be seen as idolatry?

But, again, instead of looking at the issue from a religious point of view, it IS a political point of view...and THAT is the problem.

MR

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