MR

According to some sources - and it will be more official next week - it looks like Rush's Snakes & Arrows will enter the Billboard charts at #3 with 110,000 sold.

I don't ever expect DDY or Styx to do this in the USA ever again (I'd be shocked if it happens), but it goes to prove that some bands CAN sell albums who have a long and storied past.

StyxCollector wrote:According to some sources - and it will be more official next week - it looks like Rush's Snakes & Arrows will enter the Billboard charts at #3 with 110,000 sold.

I don't ever expect DDY or Styx to do this in the USA ever again (I'd be shocked if it happens), but it goes to prove that some bands CAN sell albums who have a long and storied past.

a) Rush has had the same classic lineup for 33 years
b) They never really "went away" like Styx did. The longest absence they had was a 5 year hiatus due to personal tragedy within the band.
c) Their new CD sounds (in my opinion) like "classic" Rush which always goes over well with the fickle public.

I'm guessing if Styx never "went away" and put out a CD like Grand Illusion or Paradise Theatre, it would generate some major sales. I believe that if ANY of the 3 members of Rush "retired" and were "replaced" by someone new, their popularity would die down pretty dramatically.

Going slightly off topic here, why is it that so many Styx fans seem to also be Rush fans? (I mean, I'm one, and it sounds like you are as well). I don't see that many similarities in their music.

Oh well.

Cinj

cinj wrote:a) Rush has had the same classic lineup for 33 years
b) They never really "went away" like Styx did. The longest absence they had was a 5 year hiatus due to personal tragedy within the band.
c) Their new CD sounds (in my opinion) like "classic" Rush which always goes over well with the fickle public.

Not sure about c) but I definitely agree with the first two. Plus they've always prized a certain amount of forward momentum which has kept them out of the nostalgia penalty box, no matter how much classic rock radio & tv (and certain factions of fans) would like to trap them there.

I find it satisfyingly ironic that such an attitude, as well as their perpetual outsider status in the music world, is probably what has saved them in the long run and awarded them the level of commercial success that they are enjoying now. That Gallup-Poll-Song-Of-The-Year success can have its dark side, too. Sometimes its better to bank on the cult folowing instead.

I believe Styx committed career suicide when they broke up in 1984. If they had put out a good album in 1985 and maybe another one in 1987, with the benefit of MTV, they would have broken out from Superstar status to ELITE status, IMO. That's when a lot of bands had the biggest selling albums of their careers. Yes, Dire Straits, Heart, ect. All because of MTV.
If Styx (Tommy, Dennis, JY, CP, JP) would have taken advantage of that time with GOOD rock albums they would be on the same POPULARITY status today as is Aerosmith, and some of the other big bands. I really consider it a lost opportunity. Too bad Dennis wouldn't just agree to do some normal rock albums. Tommy might have stayed and Styx would have went through the roof. Think about it. Dire Straits, Yes, and Heart and quite a few other bands I can't think of right now, were basically dead-in-the-water 70's bands. But MTV brought them back to life and they all had HUGE albums in the mid-80's. Styx is WAY better than all of those bands and should have taken advantage of the situation.
It's just too bad they couldn't just agree to ROCK and find away to tolerate each other for a few more years!

Jimmy

cittadeeno23 wrote:I believe Styx committed career suicide when they broke up in 1984. If they had put out a good album in 1985 and maybe another one in 1987, with the benefit of MTV, they would have broken out from Superstar status to ELITE status, IMO. That's when a lot of bands had the biggest selling albums of their careers. Yes, Dire Straits, Heart, ect. All because of MTV.
If Styx (Tommy, Dennis, JY, CP, JP) would have taken advantage of that time with GOOD rock albums they would be on the same POPULARITY status today as is Aerosmith, and some of the other big bands. I really consider it a lost opportunity. Too bad Dennis wouldn't just agree to do some normal rock albums. Tommy might have stayed and Styx would have went through the roof. Think about it. Dire Straits, Yes, and Heart and quite a few other bands I can't think of right now, were basically dead-in-the-water 70's bands. But MTV brought them back to life and they all had HUGE albums in the mid-80's. Styx is WAY better than all of those bands and should have taken advantage of the situation.
It's just too bad they couldn't just agree to ROCK and find away to tolerate each other for a few more years!

Jimmy

Styx was too messed up by 1984 - drugs, interpersonal issues, etc. - would have never allowed an album to happen in 1985 or 1986. Once Tommy got clean, as you all know by now, there was a Styx reunion attempted in 1987/1988 which obviously didn't pan out. (See Sterling's book ... not to plug, but it's all in there.) The problem was not only on Dennis' shoulders and it in reality had nothing to do with writing rock songs. These guys grew up, spent the better part of 8 years together (1976 - 1984), and kinda grew apart. The Beatles lasted about 10 years give or take.

Even if Styx wrote GI Part Deux in 1984, it wouldn't have gone over because a) that wasn't the sound at the time and b) Tommy was too far gone at that point. I'm glad he got sober because he's done a lot of good work since. What If is pretty much embarassing.

And how popular is Aerosmith today? Their past few albums have tanked. They're also doing multiple act lineups. They're doing better than Styx but they're not on a different plane of success in terms of the modern market. In the 90s? Absolutely.

Where is Dire Straits now? Gone. MTV was a passing fad for getting people popular. MTV is no longer what it was. Heart has the same amount of success these days as Styx or DDY even though they had huge success with both the self titled album and Bad Animals in the 80s. So how are they doing better because of their success in the 80s? They aren't.

Bottom line: the breakup was inevitable. Styx would not really be any bigger than they are now if they had toughed it out, and I would argue it'd be much smaller.

StyxCollector wrote:

cittadeeno23 wrote:I believe Styx committed career suicide when they broke up in 1984. If they had put out a good album in 1985 and maybe another one in 1987, with the benefit of MTV, they would have broken out from Superstar status to ELITE status, IMO. That's when a lot of bands had the biggest selling albums of their careers. Yes, Dire Straits, Heart, ect. All because of MTV.
If Styx (Tommy, Dennis, JY, CP, JP) would have taken advantage of that time with GOOD rock albums they would be on the same POPULARITY status today as is Aerosmith, and some of the other big bands. I really consider it a lost opportunity. Too bad Dennis wouldn't just agree to do some normal rock albums. Tommy might have stayed and Styx would have went through the roof. Think about it. Dire Straits, Yes, and Heart and quite a few other bands I can't think of right now, were basically dead-in-the-water 70's bands. But MTV brought them back to life and they all had HUGE albums in the mid-80's. Styx is WAY better than all of those bands and should have taken advantage of the situation.
It's just too bad they couldn't just agree to ROCK and find away to tolerate each other for a few more years!

Jimmy

Styx was too messed up by 1984 - drugs, interpersonal issues, etc. - would have never allowed an album to happen in 1985 or 1986. Once Tommy got clean, as you all know by now, there was a Styx reunion attempted in 1987/1988 which obviously didn't pan out. (See Sterling's book ... not to plug, but it's all in there.) The problem was not only on Dennis' shoulders and it in reality had nothing to do with writing rock songs. These guys grew up, spent the better part of 8 years together (1976 - 1984), and kinda grew apart. The Beatles lasted about 10 years give or take.

Even if Styx wrote GI Part Deux in 1984, it wouldn't have gone over because a) that wasn't the sound at the time and b) Tommy was too far gone at that point. I'm glad he got sober because he's done a lot of good work since. What If is pretty much embarassing.

And how popular is Aerosmith today? Their past few albums have tanked. They're also doing multiple act lineups. They're doing better than Styx but they're not on a different plane of success in terms of the modern market. In the 90s? Absolutely.

Where is Dire Straits now? Gone. MTV was a passing fad for getting people popular. MTV is no longer what it was. Heart has the same amount of success these days as Styx or DDY even though they had huge success with both the self titled album and Bad Animals in the 80s. So how are they doing better because of their success in the 80s? They aren't.

Bottom line: the breakup was inevitable. Styx would not really be any bigger than they are now if they had toughed it out, and I would argue it'd be much smaller.

"What If is pretty much embarassing."
Wow- I think it's his best solo album . "Reach for the Bottle" is an awesome tune..

StyxCollector wrote:Bottom line: the breakup was inevitable. Styx would not really be any bigger than they are now if they had toughed it out, and I would argue it'd be much smaller.

I dunno if I agree with the word inevitable...unlikely, certainly. But I was intrigued to read about Derek Sutton's alternate plan for the band starting in 82 (one more "song" album after PT -> live album -> KWH presented in more of a "Purple Rain" fashion) and I think had they followed that course of action they might have stood a better chance of weathering both the climate of the 80s and their own internal issues. Then again, had that happened, Damn Yankees & S/B would never have existed, and I would probably have no idea who Glen Burtnik is. So, no complaints here.

cittadeeno23 wrote:I believe Styx committed career suicide when they broke up in 1984. If they had put out a good album in 1985 and maybe another one in 1987, with the benefit of MTV, they would have broken out from Superstar status to ELITE status, IMO. That's when a lot of bands had the biggest selling albums of their careers. Yes, Dire Straits, Heart, ect. All because of MTV.
If Styx (Tommy, Dennis, JY, CP, JP) would have taken advantage of that time with GOOD rock albums they would be on the same POPULARITY status today as is Aerosmith, and some of the other big bands. I really consider it a lost opportunity. Too bad Dennis wouldn't just agree to do some normal rock albums. Tommy might have stayed and Styx would have went through the roof. Think about it. Dire Straits, Yes, and Heart and quite a few other bands I can't think of right now, were basically dead-in-the-water 70's bands. But MTV brought them back to life and they all had HUGE albums in the mid-80's. Styx is WAY better than all of those bands and should have taken advantage of the situation.
It's just too bad they couldn't just agree to ROCK and find away to tolerate each other for a few more years!

Jimmy

No one of course really knows what COULD have happened if they had gotten back together in '87-'88. Could magic have stuck again? Possibly but unlikely. Where were DDY & Tommy Shaw at that point in their writing? Could a combination of some Ambition and Boomchild songs created a hit record from Styx in '87-'89? Doubt it. I agree, them staying together would have not created much of a stir.

Rush is a different breed. These guys are unique in their musicianship, their live shows and some of their songwriting. Rush is a players band, especially in the following of Neil and Geddy. This was not really the case with Styx. Their strength was that they hit a stride at exactly the right time from '77 to '81 with a prog turned to pop goofy brand of music and persona. Throughout the years, you could say DDY created some unique synthesizer parts in certain songs and that JY was an exciting soloist for a time but that was about it. Todd is the best PLAYER from a technical standpoint that has ever been a part of Styx but he came on after the glory years. Imagine where Todd would be with the kind of exposure Styx had during their successful years.

cittadeeno23 wrote:I believe Styx committed career suicide when they broke up in 1984. If they had put out a good album in 1985 and maybe another one in 1987, with the benefit of MTV, they would have broken out from Superstar status to ELITE status, IMO. That's when a lot of bands had the biggest selling albums of their careers. Yes, Dire Straits, Heart, ect. All because of MTV.
If Styx (Tommy, Dennis, JY, CP, JP) would have taken advantage of that time with GOOD rock albums they would be on the same POPULARITY status today as is Aerosmith, and some of the other big bands. I really consider it a lost opportunity. Too bad Dennis wouldn't just agree to do some normal rock albums. Tommy might have stayed and Styx would have went through the roof. Think about it. Dire Straits, Yes, and Heart and quite a few other bands I can't think of right now, were basically dead-in-the-water 70's bands. But MTV brought them back to life and they all had HUGE albums in the mid-80's. Styx is WAY better than all of those bands and should have taken advantage of the situation.
It's just too bad they couldn't just agree to ROCK and find away to tolerate each other for a few more years!

Jimmy

I disagree, I think MTV would have just killed Styx off much faster than they did themselves. Why? Remember that song 'Video Killed the Radio Star'? It's not fair at all, but the fact remains that MTV killed off most of the bands that were not photogenically attractive at that time: REO Speedwagon, Supertramp, Doobies, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.

That's why 'hair metal' became so popular around 1985 or so...it was the looks, not the musicianship. Like it or not, those guys looked good on MTV, and all you have to do is look at the video for "Music Time" to see why Styx would not have been able to succeed on MTV. I don't think even Tommy's looks were enough to compensate for JY's ugly mug!

Blue Falcon wrote:I disagree, I think MTV would have just killed Styx off much faster than they did themselves. Why? Remember that song 'Video Killed the Radio Star'? It's not fair at all, but the fact remains that MTV killed off most of the bands that were not photogenically attractive at that time: REO Speedwagon, Supertramp, Doobies, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.

Yeah, that explains Springsteen and Aerosmith's careers went nowhere in the 80s.

stabbim wrote:

Blue Falcon wrote:I disagree, I think MTV would have just killed Styx off much faster than they did themselves. Why? Remember that song 'Video Killed the Radio Star'? It's not fair at all, but the fact remains that MTV killed off most of the bands that were not photogenically attractive at that time: REO Speedwagon, Supertramp, Doobies, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.

Yeah, that explains Springsteen and Aerosmith's careers went nowhere in the 80s.

Springsteen was successful before the 80s, and so was Aerosmith. Aerosmith completely sold out with all the pop crap like "Angel" and were pretty much lumped in with all the 'hair metal' bands at the time.

It seems that bands with facial hair (Tull, BOC, Supertramp, BOC) fared badly on MTV. One exception was Genesis...who kept their ugly mugs out of their videos altogether.

stabbim wrote:Yeah, that explains Springsteen and Aerosmith's careers went nowhere in the 80s.

*sniff*~sniff~

is that...sarcasm I smell coming from Stabbim's general direction?

Why, I'm all verklempt.

Blue Falcon wrote:It seems that bands with facial hair (Tull, BOC, Supertramp, BOC) fared badly on MTV. One exception was Genesis...who kept their ugly mugs out of their videos altogether.

As opposed to those hotties in Flock of Seagulls, Twisted Sister, The Fixx and Quiet Riot.

Blue Falcon wrote:

stabbim wrote:

Blue Falcon wrote:I disagree, I think MTV would have just killed Styx off much faster than they did themselves. Why? Remember that song 'Video Killed the Radio Star'? It's not fair at all, but the fact remains that MTV killed off most of the bands that were not photogenically attractive at that time: REO Speedwagon, Supertramp, Doobies, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.

Yeah, that explains Springsteen and Aerosmith's careers went nowhere in the 80s.

Springsteen was successful before the 80s, and so was Aerosmith. Aerosmith completely sold out with all the pop crap like "Angel" and were pretty much lumped in with all the 'hair metal' bands at the time.

The other bands you mentioned were successful before the 80s as well. My point is that Springsteen and Aerosmith weren't all that photogenic either, and certainly didn't trade on looks over talent, but both were helped tremendously by their exposure on Mtv. So was the extremely un-glamorous Rush, for that matter.

I know it's a popular theory that video killed the radio star, and on some level it has validity, but it doesn't hold up 100% and there's no reason to think Styx would have fallen prey to that pitfall an more easily than any other band. I mean, REO was huge on Mtv until about 1987, and they didn't have a Tommy Shaw.

One exception was Genesis...who kept their ugly mugs out of their videos altogether.

Invisible Touch, Illegal Alien, Turn It On Again, I Can't Dance and In Too Deep would like a word with you.

stabbim wrote:

One exception was Genesis...who kept their ugly mugs out of their videos altogether.

Invisible Touch, Illegal Alien, Turn It On Again, I Can't Dance and In Too Deep would like a word with you.

Touche. Heck, add any solo Phil video to the list.

George Clooney he ain't.

Definitely the eye of the beholder there on a number of those groups.

I happen to think Styx was very ready for their closeup. Nice looking, or cute, guys all.

Phil Collins was so darn huggable, LOL!

And Peter Gabriel was a total hottie!

I could go on....but I won't.

A lot of it was in how the video was produced and presented.

Bugsy