MR

First off - let me say that I think Tommy Shaw contributed a huge portion of what makes Styx great. I think, without Tommy Shaw, Styx would have been a completely different and less successful band. I also think that JY contributed. However, I think JY contributions were largely negative and I think the band would have been far more successful without him.

Having said that about Tommy, I think what gets me most riled up is that some of you tend to escalate Tommy's contributions to the point of DDY's contributions and, like him or not, thats just not true. In addition to coming up with the direction, concepts, and production of Styx - Dennis is the one who could mold the three very disparate styles together and make one great work (Paradise Theatre comes to mind). Its not just about comparing "Come Sail Away" to "Blue Collar Man" and picking out who had more songwriting talent - its about the general structure, sound, and concept of the band. That was Dennis's role. To say he was a "former keyboardist" or the "guy with a good voice" really doesn't do him justice.

From 1975-1991, he WAS Styx's direction. I'd say those years were pretty important to the band.

Even if you think he's a "showtune guy" or "the guy who kept Tommy from rocking", if you like Styx (even this new bastardization) you have to give him credit for making Styx what it is. This doesn't mean he's the 2nd coming, or he's not a control freak, or he's a better keyboardist than Lawrence Gowan, it means that the band you like so much was his brainchild and you should give him credit for that.

Higgy wrote:First off - let me say that I think Tommy Shaw contributed a huge portion of what makes Styx great. I think, without Tommy Shaw, Styx would have been a completely different and less successful band. I also think that JY contributed. However, I think JY contributions were largely negative and I think the band would have been far more successful without him.

Having said that about Tommy, I think what gets me most riled up is that some of you tend to escalate Tommy's contributions to the point of DDY's contributions and, like him or not, thats just not true. In addition to coming up with the direction, concepts, and production of Styx - Dennis is the one who could mold the three very disparate styles together and make one great work (Paradise Theatre comes to mind). Its not just about comparing "Come Sail Away" to "Blue Collar Man" and picking out who had more songwriting talent - its about the general structure, sound, and concept of the band. That was Dennis's role. To say he was a "former keyboardist" or the "guy with a good voice" really doesn't do him justice.

From 1975-1991, he WAS Styx's direction. I'd say those years were pretty important to the band.

Even if you think he's a "showtune guy" or "the guy who kept Tommy from rocking", if you like Styx (even this new bastardization) you have to give him credit for making Styx what it is. This doesn't mean he's the 2nd coming, or he's not a control freak, or he's a better keyboardist than Lawrence Gowan, it means that the band you like so much was his brainchild and you should give him credit for that.

I agree with everything you just said except Styx being far more sucessful without JY. I think Styx maxxed out with Dennis and Tommy and JY's input to Styx's success is largely irrelevant. That doesn't mean that I don't like JY or some of his songs, he just had minimal effect on the commericial success of Styx. He is certainly more replaceable than either Tommy or Dennis.

I don't think you have to think Tommy's input to Styx is just as vital to Styx as Dennis's input was to be a Tommy fan. Arguing over which member was better is akin to arguing which Beatle was more important. They both wrote songs I love, and they both wrote songs I despise. Wanting Dennis back in the band does not require you to hate Tommy and JY. If you judged all classic Styx's members on individual happiness, I'd venture they as a group are more happy today than they were in 1999 or 1991 for that matter. I'm sure Dennis would rather still have control of the band, but I doubt his band would be much different than the one he has now. Tommy would definitely not be in it. You'd have Dennis and JY and probably Glen, and Tommy would have Damn Yankees going or something with Jack.

I'm as big a jy fan as the next guy. Sure he was/is replaceable but no one has the balls to do it not even dennis. You really think he'd go right up to jy's face and say " sorry james but were gonna let you go" i don't think so.

Thenightbull wrote:I'm as big a jy fan as the next guy. Sure he was/is replaceable but no one has the balls to do it not even dennis. You really think he'd go right up to jy's face and say " sorry james but were gonna let you go" i don't think so.

He wouldn't. For the mere fact that DDY is happy with what he's doing now, I think that ship has sailed......even for Dennis


Robin :roll:

Great fucking post, Higgy. I think Tommy Shaw is incredibly talented, but neither he nor his direction would have made Styx anywhere near as successful as the talents and direction of DDY. Having both of them certainly created a competeitve fire of one trying to "one up" the other, and in the end the fans were treated to some incredible contributions from both of them ... but it also brought about a breaking point. Without Dennis, I doubt Styx will ever have the creativity, fire or brains to ever be relevant again. They need that tension back.[/i]

Higgy wrote:First off - let me say that I think Tommy Shaw contributed a huge portion of what makes Styx great. I think, without Tommy Shaw, Styx would have been a completely different and less successful band. I also think that JY contributed. However, I think JY contributions were largely negative and I think the band would have been far more successful without him.

Having said that about Tommy, I think what gets me most riled up is that some of you tend to escalate Tommy's contributions to the point of DDY's contributions and, like him or not, thats just not true. In addition to coming up with the direction, concepts, and production of Styx - Dennis is the one who could mold the three very disparate styles together and make one great work (Paradise Theatre comes to mind). Its not just about comparing "Come Sail Away" to "Blue Collar Man" and picking out who had more songwriting talent - its about the general structure, sound, and concept of the band. That was Dennis's role. To say he was a "former keyboardist" or the "guy with a good voice" really doesn't do him justice.

From 1975-1991, he WAS Styx's direction. I'd say those years were pretty important to the band.

Even if you think he's a "showtune guy" or "the guy who kept Tommy from rocking", if you like Styx (even this new bastardization) you have to give him credit for making Styx what it is. This doesn't mean he's the 2nd coming, or he's not a control freak, or he's a better keyboardist than Lawrence Gowan, it means that the band you like so much was his brainchild and you should give him credit for that.

I also agree with most of what you say except about JY being a negative. Totally way off here. He contributed less in creating the music for sure but I think he was vital in keeping things together and moving forward, especially during the 1980-1983 years. Doing Kilroy Was Here was not his thing, but I think he gave it his all on the record and in concert. In the end it may have seemed meaningless due to the outcome but I think he had little to do with the outcome.

Saint John wrote:Great fucking post, Higgy. I think Tommy Shaw is incredibly talented, but neither he nor his direction would have made Styx anywhere near as successful as the talents and direction of DDY. Having both of them certainly created a competeitve fire of one trying to "one up" the other, and in the end the fans were treated to some incredible contributions from both of them ... but it also brought about a breaking point. Without Dennis, I doubt Styx will ever have the creativity, fire or brains to ever be relevant again. They need that tension back.[/i]

Excellent post yourself! Couldn't have said it better.

Higgy wrote:First off - let me say that I think Tommy Shaw contributed a huge portion of what makes Styx great. I think, without Tommy Shaw, Styx would have been a completely different and less successful band. I also think that JY contributed. However, I think JY contributions were largely negative and I think the band would have been far more successful without him.

Having said that about Tommy, I think what gets me most riled up is that some of you tend to escalate Tommy's contributions to the point of DDY's contributions and, like him or not, thats just not true. In addition to coming up with the direction, concepts, and production of Styx - Dennis is the one who could mold the three very disparate styles together and make one great work (Paradise Theatre comes to mind). Its not just about comparing "Come Sail Away" to "Blue Collar Man" and picking out who had more songwriting talent - its about the general structure, sound, and concept of the band. That was Dennis's role. To say he was a "former keyboardist" or the "guy with a good voice" really doesn't do him justice.

From 1975-1991, he WAS Styx's direction. I'd say those years were pretty important to the band.

Even if you think he's a "showtune guy" or "the guy who kept Tommy from rocking", if you like Styx (even this new bastardization) you have to give him credit for making Styx what it is. This doesn't mean he's the 2nd coming, or he's not a control freak, or he's a better keyboardist than Lawrence Gowan, it means that the band you like so much was his brainchild and you should give him credit for that.

Awesome post!

The key to this is that Tommy Shaw can excel in the tactics of the music scene - he can write a good song, he can entertain a crowd, play a good acoustic guitar, and have charisma to be appealing to the fans/radio etc. However, Tommy is not strategic. He is not a visionary. Dennis DeYoung was the visionary in Styx. He saw the bigger picture of where the band could go. He could anticipate the trends in the industry and position the band in the right way to capture those trends. He was able to visionize concept albums, see Styx's potential beyond just an 8 song album and tour.

And I think you see the lack of that vision in Styx's output since his departure. No creativity, no consistency, no STRATEGY....Tommy Shaw might be able to write a great song, but he lacks vision. And that is the main difference between Styx of 1975-91 and Styx from 1999 on....

Toph didn't you listen to cyclorama? Oh wait never mind

Zan wrote:Uh...kinda, the same here! o m g. (with the exception, of course, to the negative remarks about JY's contributions - and to a lesser extent, what Toph said about Tommy playing "good acoustic guitar" because that is just as much a downplay as viewing Dennis DeYoung as nothing but a keyboardist.)

But yeah, for the most part - I agree!

Let me clarify, because I didn't mean that in a negative light at all and could have said it better. I meant that Tommy's acoustic guitar sound in my mind really made a lot of Styx songs great - I'm a big fan of the Styx sound that is encompassed in Crystal Ball, Foolin Yourself, even Lights...In fact one of the big misses on Paradise Theatre is that there is no "Tommy acoustic guitar driven song".

So, no I didn't mean to say that he's a good acoustic guitar player like DDY is a good keyboard player. Should have explained it better.

Thenightbull wrote:Toph didn't you listen to cyclorama? Oh wait never mind

Cyclorama had some great moments, but it was still disjointed and lacked cohesion around a common theme and the accompanying tour was just that - a tour. It was what it was, but I wouldn't characterize it as having a real depth of vision.

Toph wrote:

Thenightbull wrote:Toph didn't you listen to cyclorama? Oh wait never mind

Cyclorama had some great moments, but it was still disjointed and lacked cohesion around a common theme and the accompanying tour was just that - a tour. It was what it was, but I wouldn't characterize it as having a real depth of vision.

I get where youre going. Cyclo could've been paradise theater II if they had marketed and promoted it the way they should have.

Thenightbull wrote:

Toph wrote:

Thenightbull wrote:Toph didn't you listen to cyclorama? Oh wait never mind

Cyclorama had some great moments, but it was still disjointed and lacked cohesion around a common theme and the accompanying tour was just that - a tour. It was what it was, but I wouldn't characterize it as having a real depth of vision.

I get where youre going. Cyclo could've been paradise theater II if they had marketed and promoted it the way they should have.

Cyclorama could never have been Paradise Theatre II. You're a fucking idiot.

Higgy wrote:

Thenightbull wrote:

Toph wrote:

Thenightbull wrote:Toph didn't you listen to cyclorama? Oh wait never mind

Cyclorama had some great moments, but it was still disjointed and lacked cohesion around a common theme and the accompanying tour was just that - a tour. It was what it was, but I wouldn't characterize it as having a real depth of vision.

I get where youre going. Cyclo could've been paradise theater II if they had marketed and promoted it the way they should have.

Cyclorama could never have been Paradise Theatre II. You're a fucking idiot.

Takes one to know one. Obviously you haven't given cyclo a listen.

Thenightbull wrote:

Higgy wrote:You're a fucking idiot.

Takes one to know one.

sigh. And it was going so well there for a minute.

Zan wrote:

Thenightbull wrote:

Higgy wrote:You're a fucking idiot.

Takes one to know one.

sigh. And it was going so well there for a minute.

Just stating the facts

Toph wrote:Cyclorama had some great moments, but it was still disjointed and lacked cohesion around a common theme.

Cyclorama lacked cohesion around a common theme?

Just play it backwards and it says "Dennis is the Devil"

Ehh, no; I don't think you have it to play it backwards for that.

i agree that dennis was the "brainchild" of styx's direction and production....very important role.

i believe dennis was the primary writer of their radio hits.

i believe tommy and jy are the primary reasons they had such massive success as a touring act in their heyday. they were dynamic and fun to watch and incredible live performers.

although not "official" hits styx had many songs that were radio hits that did not chart.....songs like the grand illusion and miss america were widely played on the radio on a regular rotation......many casual fans of the band have heard and love miss america.....i also think jy contributed other fantastic songs such as great white hope and being a co-writer of snowblind.....he gave the band some much needed attitude....jy on his own would have never achieved huge success but jy as a member of styx was the perfect icing to the cake.

tommy wrote and contributed heavily to the songs of styx and wrote actual hits....his songwriting contributions cannot be ignored....BUT he also brought an element of sex appeal to the band that it did not possess without him which opened up the door for all the young girls to fall in love with tommy and want to see tommy play live.....which meant that all the young dudes were going to go see styx because that was where all the young girls were. that cannot be ignored.

they contirbuted and made it wwhat it was but I will say that dennis was the most important ingedient to the styx soup but not the only important ingredient.

kansas666 wrote:

Toph wrote:Cyclorama had some great moments, but it was still disjointed and lacked cohesion around a common theme.

Cyclorama lacked cohesion around a common theme?

Just play it backwards and it says "Dennis is the Devil"

Duly noted. I guess I should have said cohesion around a theme that wasn't juvenile.....

BlackWall wrote:Ehh, no; I don't think you have it to play it backwards for that.

Heh.

Bugsy