MR

Thenightbull wrote:In your opinion who do you think garnered more heat when they first joined the band larry or glen? I would have to say probably larry just for the fact that he replaced probably the most important member of the band as far as songwriting goes, granted larry has written some killer tunes in his day but imo they havin't reached the pinacle of success that the majority of dennis's songs have.

Higgy wrote:

Thenightbull wrote:In your opinion who do you think garnered more heat when they first joined the band larry or glen? I would have to say probably larry just for the fact that he replaced probably the most important member of the band as far as songwriting goes, granted larry has written some killer tunes in his day but imo they havin't reached the pinacle of success that the majority of dennis's songs have.

Why do you dig this shit up? Who really gives a shit who "got more heat"? Go outside. Make some friends.

Thenightbull wrote:In your opinion who do you think garnered more heat when they first joined the band larry or glen? I would have to say probably larry just for the fact that he replaced probably the most important member of the band as far as songwriting goes, granted larry has written some killer tunes in his day but imo they havin't reached the pinacle of success that the majority of dennis's songs have.

Zan wrote:Lawrence, for sure. But only because of the popularity of the Internet. Had this and other Styx Internet boards been around back then, I bet it would have been Glen. Just a hunch.

cinj wrote:

Zan wrote:Lawrence, for sure. But only because of the popularity of the Internet. Had this and other Styx Internet boards been around back then, I bet it would have been Glen. Just a hunch.

Actually, there <I>were</I> bulletin boards back then, or closely after. They were in their infancy however (AOL, Prodigy) and you are correct - Glen did take a lot of heat back then.

Since it was new technology, however, the "reasons" for the change weren't as well known (i.e. band's dirty laundry stayed within the band). That might have something to do with the animosity towards Gowan.

Cinj

BlackWall wrote:I had to stop myself; I thought for just a second the title of this thread was, "Who Got More Head Larry or Glen"..

I think people did hate on the fact that Tommy was gone. That being said, though, I think DDY's circumstances are a definitely more unsettling. Tommy had another gig and couldn't do it. I'm sure some fans were still pissed to see Glen on stage, but I imagine there wasn't the same level of hostility.

One thing to keep in mind though is the fact that the band was a lot more popular in '90 than it was in '99; so, more people might have cared about Tommy, due simply to the fact that there were more people to care. Outside of us, do most concert goers even realize or care that it's not DDY?

BlackWall wrote:

cinj wrote:

Zan wrote:Lawrence, for sure. But only because of the popularity of the Internet. Had this and other Styx Internet boards been around back then, I bet it would have been Glen. Just a hunch.

Actually, there <I>were</I> bulletin boards back then, or closely after. They were in their infancy however (AOL, Prodigy) and you are correct - Glen did take a lot of heat back then.

Since it was new technology, however, the "reasons" for the change weren't as well known (i.e. band's dirty laundry stayed within the band). That might have something to do with the animosity towards Gowan.

Cinj

Prodigy, the early days of AOL.... hadn't thought about Prodigy in years.

cinj wrote:

Zan wrote:Lawrence, for sure. But only because of the popularity of the Internet. Had this and other Styx Internet boards been around back then, I bet it would have been Glen. Just a hunch.

Actually, there <I>were</I> bulletin boards back then, or closely after. They were in their infancy however (AOL, Prodigy) and you are correct - Glen did take a lot of heat back then.

Since it was new technology, however, the "reasons" for the change weren't as well known (i.e. band's dirty laundry stayed within the band). That might have something to do with the animosity towards Gowan.

Cinj

Monker wrote:

cinj wrote:

Zan wrote:Lawrence, for sure. But only because of the popularity of the Internet. Had this and other Styx Internet boards been around back then, I bet it would have been Glen. Just a hunch.

Actually, there <I>were</I> bulletin boards back then, or closely after. They were in their infancy however (AOL, Prodigy) and you are correct - Glen did take a lot of heat back then.

Since it was new technology, however, the "reasons" for the change weren't as well known (i.e. band's dirty laundry stayed within the band). That might have something to do with the animosity towards Gowan.

Cinj

Oh, please, there was 'hate' and animosity back then....a lot of it was 'behind the scenes' and not brought to the BB's very often. I remember the bashing of 976-Styx, and later, Yankee Pride, and the writers of those fanzines. I talked to Mickey a bit back then and was blasted in Email by certain fans for even talking to her. Those fans just couldn't stand the fact that she had direct contacts with Tommy and the rest of DY. The same with Donna and 976-Styx...if you were 'friendly' to her, you couldn't be 'friendly' to others. A huge amount of animosity, jealousy, and lines that couldn't be crossed - very childish.

And, then there were the Journey forums and Perryheads...don't even go there...wrong forum anyways.

I grew to HATE cliques so much because of all of the hatred being tossed around. It ws ridiculous.

At the same time, much of it was kept off the BB's. If you stayed away from the Styx cliques and just talked to the fans, they generaly all got along...despite any spiteful feelings towards any member of the band. The main difference between now and then, IMO, is there are a lot more resentful fans who feel the need to be vocal and trash the other side. In the olden days, that wasn't tolerated much by either side...because everybody understood it was the discussion and the fun that mattered and not some pettiness of some bitter fan attacking another fan for whatever aspect of Styx they liked.

Zan, talk to Dayle about it sometime. Although, she is the type who would rather keep stuff like that in the past....she was definitely caught in the middle of it too. That is probably one of the reasons she's not so involved in these forums any longer.

I thought it was "the Flaming Rivers" in David D's old Styxboard BB


Robin

masque wrote:there should have been no real reason fro glen to take any heat......

styx was getting back together and tommy was committed to the damn yankees they went on....so be it

.......if he wanted styx bad enough then he could have walked from the damn yankees...he didnt.

same thing years later with the whoel dennis thing.....part of them wanted to juke left and dennis wanted to juke right.....

Monker wrote:

masque wrote:there should have been no real reason fro glen to take any heat......

Oh, please.

He sang Tommy's songs. That alone is reason enough for some Tommy fans to go wacko...just as it is reason enough for some Dennis fans to go wacko about Gowan.

He dressed and looked like he should be in some metal band, not Styx.
His solo albums sounded like a Bruce Springsteen wannabe, not Styx.
The guy seemed sooooo out of place in that band.

Now, to be honest, he rocked during the Cyclorama days. Glen definitely grew into the band.

styx was getting back together and tommy was committed to the damn yankees they went on....so be it

Depends on what you want to believe...since Dennis himself said HE TOLD TOMMY TO JOIN DY after Tommy REPEATEDLY asked Dennis about a Styx reunion.

.......if he wanted styx bad enough then he could have walked from the damn yankees...he didnt.

And, if DDY wanted him there, he could have committed to a reunion BEFORE he told Tommy to join DY.

same thing years later with the whoel dennis thing.....part of them wanted to juke left and dennis wanted to juke right.....

Dennis repeatedly showed he was torn between being committed to Hunchback and Styx. When push came to shove, more members shoved Dennis out of the band then his wife could shove back. Even AFTER Dennis was solo he STILL worked on Hunchback. THAT was his baby at that time. THAT is what seemed to inspire him...not Styx. He would rather cry about the production then work on good songs for BNW. He would rather record more Hunchback songs then write and record new songs for that album.

When you look at the big picture and both sides of all the arguments, they are all justified in their own perspective. You can't be pissed about Gowan singing CSA, but accept Glen singing Renegade. It's hypocritical. You can't say Dennis was justified in kicking Tommy out of the band but say the rest of the band was not justified in kicking Dennis out...that is also hypocritical.

But, of course, none of this matters because the only thing that matters in today's forums is the poster's own perspective and feelings...everything else be damned.

Monker wrote:

masque wrote:there should have been no real reason fro glen to take any heat......

Oh, please.

He sang Tommy's songs. That alone is reason enough for some Tommy fans to go wacko...just as it is reason enough for some Dennis fans to go wacko about Gowan.

He dressed and looked like he should be in some metal band, not Styx.
His solo albums sounded like a Bruce Springsteen wannabe, not Styx.
The guy seemed sooooo out of place in that band.

Now, to be honest, he rocked during the Cyclorama days. Glen definitely grew into the band.

styx was getting back together and tommy was committed to the damn yankees they went on....so be it

Depends on what you want to believe...since Dennis himself said HE TOLD TOMMY TO JOIN DY after Tommy REPEATEDLY asked Dennis about a Styx reunion.

.......if he wanted styx bad enough then he could have walked from the damn yankees...he didnt.

And, if DDY wanted him there, he could have committed to a reunion BEFORE he told Tommy to join DY.

same thing years later with the whoel dennis thing.....part of them wanted to juke left and dennis wanted to juke right.....

Dennis repeatedly showed he was torn between being committed to Hunchback and Styx. When push came to shove, more members shoved Dennis out of the band then his wife could shove back. Even AFTER Dennis was solo he STILL worked on Hunchback. THAT was his baby at that time. THAT is what seemed to inspire him...not Styx. He would rather cry about the production then work on good songs for BNW. He would rather record more Hunchback songs then write and record new songs for that album.

When you look at the big picture and both sides of all the arguments, they are all justified in their own perspective. You can't be pissed about Gowan singing CSA, but accept Glen singing Renegade. It's hypocritical. You can't say Dennis was justified in kicking Tommy out of the band but say the rest of the band was not justified in kicking Dennis out...that is also hypocritical.

But, of course, none of this matters because the only thing that matters in today's forums is the poster's own perspective and feelings...everything else be damned.

BlackWall wrote:I had to stop myself; I thought for just a second the title of this thread was, "Who Got More Head Larry or Glen"..

Zan, talk to Dayle about it sometime. Although, she is the type who would rather keep stuff like that in the past....she was definitely caught in the middle of it too. That is probably one of the reasons she's not so involved in these forums any longer.

Zan wrote:

masque wrote:

Monker wrote:

masque wrote:there should have been no real reason fro glen to take any heat......

Oh, please.

He sang Tommy's songs. That alone is reason enough for some Tommy fans to go wacko...just as it is reason enough for some Dennis fans to go wacko about Gowan.

He dressed and looked like he should be in some metal band, not Styx.
His solo albums sounded like a Bruce Springsteen wannabe, not Styx.
The guy seemed sooooo out of place in that band.

Now, to be honest, he rocked during the Cyclorama days. Glen definitely grew into the band.

styx was getting back together and tommy was committed to the damn yankees they went on....so be it

Depends on what you want to believe...since Dennis himself said HE TOLD TOMMY TO JOIN DY after Tommy REPEATEDLY asked Dennis about a Styx reunion.

.......if he wanted styx bad enough then he could have walked from the damn yankees...he didnt.

And, if DDY wanted him there, he could have committed to a reunion BEFORE he told Tommy to join DY.

same thing years later with the whoel dennis thing.....part of them wanted to juke left and dennis wanted to juke right.....

Dennis repeatedly showed he was torn between being committed to Hunchback and Styx. When push came to shove, more members shoved Dennis out of the band then his wife could shove back. Even AFTER Dennis was solo he STILL worked on Hunchback. THAT was his baby at that time. THAT is what seemed to inspire him...not Styx. He would rather cry about the production then work on good songs for BNW. He would rather record more Hunchback songs then write and record new songs for that album.

When you look at the big picture and both sides of all the arguments, they are all justified in their own perspective. You can't be pissed about Gowan singing CSA, but accept Glen singing Renegade. It's hypocritical. You can't say Dennis was justified in kicking Tommy out of the band but say the rest of the band was not justified in kicking Dennis out...that is also hypocritical.

But, of course, none of this matters because the only thing that matters in today's forums is the poster's own perspective and feelings...everything else be damned.

dude you quote all that stuff as if you were there......so i suppose it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks...you seem to be quite sure of your opinion....kudos to you.

Just my loan, isolated, 1st hand experience with Glen in 1991 (shut up, Stacy)) witnessed much more blatant animosity towards him than anything I've seen with Gowan (well, to his face anyway). I can only imagine what people were saying about Glen behind the safety of a computer screen. When Dennis left/was thrown out, there was a certain weirdness that didn't seem as prevalent when Tommy was out - I mean, seriously, no one saw that coming, but I still think there was less ANGER in general. People HATED Glen.

Zan, talk to Dayle about it sometime. Although, she is the type who would rather keep stuff like that in the past....she was definitely caught in the middle of it too. That is probably one of the reasons she's not so involved in these forums any longer.

Dayle, Tani, Micky...those guys were all around to see the carnage during the day. I think they would all agree that Glen was more resented than Gowan ever has been - there was just less of a forum to vent it than there is now.

Toph wrote:I hate to disagree with you (yeah right), but I am going to disagree with you. I saw 3 different shows on the Edge tour. There was TONS more animosity toward Gowan than Glen.

In fact I recall some fans being pissed at Tommy for some things he said in some mainstream press about Styx at the time.

Styx did take a step back, but were still a relatively successful band, landing a huge single in SMTW and a minor hit in LAFS. With Gowan, they were not successful. They did not have any success at radio, with record sales, and played small halls or had to be grouped with other bands to fill a decent size arena.

Glen was accepted and Gowan was blasted.

And this urban legend that some of you try to keep around that Dennis told Tommy to join DY intentionally to get him out of Styx is pure fantasy...go sell crazy somewhere else.

Monker wrote:
Obviously, you may have went to a couple Styx concerts back then...but you were not interacting online with Styx fandom...I was.

Zan wrote:Toph - I'm not talking about animosity towards the rest of the band BECAUSE OF someone being gone. I'm talking about general hatred toward the replacement guy for existing. If we're talking about fans just being pissed at the band for their business choices, then yes, I agree with you that they were more outraged in 1999 (and on), but strictly on a personal basis, Glen was hated more.

I have been around Gowan in the presence of other fans a handful of times and have seen dozens of shows, and he has always gotten a good reception (whether they love him or prefer DDY is not really the point, but he is treated well by the audience and fans). The one time I was around Glen in the presence of other fans, he had people screaming at him "YOU SURE AIN'T NO TOMMY SHAW!" Repeatedly.

Monker wrote:

Toph wrote:I hate to disagree with you (yeah right), but I am going to disagree with you. I saw 3 different shows on the Edge tour. There was TONS more animosity toward Gowan than Glen.

You are simply wrong. The "TONS more animosity" is simply the bullshit that people like you and froy spew off on the forums like this. You can't measure that and quantify it and say it equals this or that. I'm here to tell you from personal experience from that time that the same attitude existed back then that does now...directed at Glen. It was just expressed a LOT more behind the scenes.

Obviously, you may have went to a couple Styx concerts back then...but you were not interacting online with Styx fandom...I was.


Oh, and aren't you special....I did check out some online fan sites during that time (and by the way, Internet was in its total infancy, dude so there wasn't much going on. It seemed to me like it was always about 50-50 pro and con against Glen.

In fact I recall some fans being pissed at Tommy for some things he said in some mainstream press about Styx at the time.

And, I recall fans being pissed at Dennis for comments about Styx fans drinking Tommy's bathwater.

Styx did take a step back, but were still a relatively successful band, landing a huge single in SMTW and a minor hit in LAFS. With Gowan, they were not successful. They did not have any success at radio, with record sales, and played small halls or had to be grouped with other bands to fill a decent size arena.

And, none of that has anything to do with the FACT that some fans wanted to puke at the idea of Glen singing Renegade.

And what about the fact that many fans wanted to puke at the idea of Gowan singing Come Sail Away...or Styx dropping most of their big hits from their set list?

Glen was accepted and Gowan was blasted.

You're just wrong...The only time I think he was fully accepted was during Cyclorama where he could tour and sing his own songs...and not Tommy's. Sure, he was accepted by some in the Edge days, but not everybody - by a long shot.

Like I said probably 50-50, but talk to me about how much Gowan has been accepted? It seems to me like Styx went from playing major outdoor sheds in their 1997 tour to playing state fairs and country bars beginning in 1999 unless they load up the bill with 3 other classic rock bands and get their 45 minutes....

And this urban legend that some of you try to keep around that Dennis told Tommy to join DY intentionally to get him out of Styx is pure fantasy...go sell crazy somewhere else.

Oh, really, I didn't realize that Andrew was 'selling crazy' when he interviewed Dennis and he said:


What happened when Tommy left and you reformed to do 'Edge of the Century'?

In 1983 Tommy decided that he didn't like, well he didn't like a lot of things, but number 1 thing he didn't like was he was convinced he could be a solo artist on his own. Someone was whispering in his ear. He quit the band in the middle of the '83 tour. We knew he was going to quit. When the whole thing was over at the end of '83 and the beginning of '84 Tommy had quit and James Young, John and Chuck were still in the band they wanted me to replace Tommy Shaw and to go forward immediately. I said I wouldn't do it. I said this band is these guys. So what I did is I became a reluctant solo artist because I was not going to go back and put a new Styx together with somebody else. My contract read that I had the ability to make a solo record for A&M so I decided I'd make a solo album and wait for Tommy to come to his senses. So I made Desert Moon. So Tommy made his solo album and I made mine.
When Tommy's record deals had run out he called up in about 1988 and wanted to talk about getting the band back together.
I thought it was a good idea but I had just signed another deal with MCA to make another solo album, my 3rd. I told him let me just record this album and get this together and we'll talk about getting this band back together. As I'm going through that process he called me up one day and said I'm antsy. Remember Tommy is the guy that wrote the song 'Too Much Time On My Hands'. Catch my drift?

Yes.

Ok. He called me and said when are we going to do this Styx thing? I said I've gotta finish this project and he said I've got this offer to from my manager to go get with Jack Blades and Ted Nugent and do some demos. I said go and do it. I'm not going to stop you from doing it. So he went and they got a record deal and off he went.

Sure.

So what happened was after it was clear to me he was now in Damn Yankees the band came back to me again, JY called and said when are we going to do this. I realized at that moment that with Tommy happily in Damn Yankees that maybe if we were ever going to do it we should do it. So we forged ahead and put the thing together with Glenn Burtnik.
In that same year or the year later Tommy actually sold back his right to the name Styx legally.


And, there was an interview prior to this one where TOMMY tells the EXACT SAME STORY. He called Dennis MULTIPLE times about reforming Styx. He was busy doing solo things. Then he called Dennis one last time and Dennis TOLD HIM to do DY. That is the story according to BOTH Tommy and Dennis. Then with "Tommy happily in DY" Dennis does Styx. That IS what happened.

The 'selling crazy' people are those who want to believe that Tommy would call Dennis over and over again and still not be more interested in joining Styx then DY. Then, you want to sell the BS that there was no animosity about that? Come on now...you are full of BS spin and don't even know what you are talking about.

Monker wrote:He dressed and looked like he should be in some metal band, not Styx.
His solo albums sounded like a Bruce Springsteen wannabe, not Styx.
The guy seemed sooooo out of place in that band.

Now, to be honest, he rocked during the Cyclorama days. Glen definitely grew into the band.

Toph wrote:

Zan wrote:Toph - I'm not talking about animosity towards the rest of the band BECAUSE OF someone being gone. I'm talking about general hatred toward the replacement guy for existing. If we're talking about fans just being pissed at the band for their business choices, then yes, I agree with you that they were more outraged in 1999 (and on), but strictly on a personal basis, Glen was hated more.

I have been around Gowan in the presence of other fans a handful of times and have seen dozens of shows, and he has always gotten a good reception (whether they love him or prefer DDY is not really the point, but he is treated well by the audience and fans). The one time I was around Glen in the presence of other fans, he had people screaming at him "YOU SURE AIN'T NO TOMMY SHAW!" Repeatedly.

I dunno, Zan - I've heard plently of people say that Gowan "sure ain't no Dennis DeYoung" when it comes to singing....maybe Alvin, but not DDY. And the one Styx show I went to featuring the new lineup, people around me were saying how bad he sang.