MR

I wanted to confirm with anyone that might know, how the writing credits worked for this song. My understanding was that DDY wrote most of the song, lyrics and melody, but that JY wrote the opening rift (the part that kicks in at the transition between AD1928) and that Tommy wrote only his guitar solo and got credit for that song in a weird way/payback because he didn't get credit for his lyrical contribution in Snowblind. True or not?

Toph wrote:I wanted to confirm with anyone that might know, how the writing credits worked for this song. My understanding was that DDY wrote most of the song, lyrics and melody, but that JY wrote the opening rift (the part that kicks in at the transition between AD1928) and that Tommy wrote only his guitar solo and got credit for that song in a weird way/payback because he didn't get credit for his lyrical contribution in Snowblind. True or not?

Actually I think the main riff for that song comes from an old song from MS Funk that pre-dates Tommy being in Styx, so he must have written that part. JY's contribution I'm sure is in the music. The melody and lyric are probably DDY's. The lyric certainly is, you can tell just from the word choices and style.

Tommy didn't get credit for "Snowblind" I guess because he came in late in writing it. It's bizarre, some of the writing credits for Styx. He wrote a very big chunk of that song but got no credit. There are other songs where others wrote a big chunk and got no credit either.

Sterling

The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

That's a given. Dennis has always said it was all of them that made Styx.

cittadeeno23 wrote:That's a given. Dennis has always said it was all of them that made Styx.

true!

There is an audio interview of Dennis somewhere where he describes how they wrote that song and how fast it came together. He said each of Tommy and JY came to him with guitar stuff that would normally be used in guitar solos but that Dennis decided to use them as part of the main song to play with lyrics. He then wrote the lyrics really fast and they went to record it.

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

BlackWall wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, read one of Alan's interviews with DDY. Tommy came in and Renegade was a acoustic soft, CSNY type of thing. Dennis reworked it and rocked it up.

Toph wrote:

BlackWall wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, read one of Alan's interviews with DDY. Tommy came in and Renegade was a acoustic soft, CSNY type of thing. Dennis reworked it and rocked it up.

I don't know if he would talk about it now, but Tommy used to tell that same story. He said the original demo he made for "Renegade" had many, many more verses and was a traditional folk ballad. Dennis said, "Look, let's lose most of these verses so it's not so long, and we'll do it in cut time so it's not so boring."
I asked Derek Sutton about this once, and he said something to the effect of, Dennis was the one with the ability to take anyone's songs - his own, Tommy's or JY's - and arrange and produce them in the best way to achieve their full potential. That's one of the most important roles he played in Styx, in my opinion. Just as important as his role as a singer, writer or instrumentalist.

Sterling

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

Dude, it's "RIFF" not "RIFT". That's the second time I've seen you use that...
The Riff are those chords, the CFG section. That's basically the second half of the song. The one where the CHORUS is. It's a pretty big deal. And yeah, kudos to Dennis for stepping up Renegade.

BlackWall wrote:
Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, though "Dirge" was the word used, as opposed to "Ballad"

Rockwriter wrote:

Toph wrote:

BlackWall wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, read one of Alan's interviews with DDY. Tommy came in and Renegade was a acoustic soft, CSNY type of thing. Dennis reworked it and rocked it up.

I asked Derek Sutton about this once, and he said something to the effect of, Dennis was the one with the ability to take anyone's songs - his own, Tommy's or JY's - and arrange and produce them in the best way to achieve their full potential. That's one of the most important roles he played in Styx, in my opinion. Just as important as his role as a singer, writer or instrumentalist.

Sterling

Maybe that is one of the reasons why they gave him the liberties he had in the band and changes their minds about firing him back in '79.

Rockwriter wrote:

Toph wrote:

BlackWall wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, read one of Alan's interviews with DDY. Tommy came in and Renegade was a acoustic soft, CSNY type of thing. Dennis reworked it and rocked it up.

I don't know if he would talk about it now, but Tommy used to tell that same story. He said the original demo he made for "Renegade" had many, many more verses and was a traditional folk ballad. Dennis said, "Look, let's lose most of these verses so it's not so long, and we'll do it in cut time so it's not so boring."
I asked Derek Sutton about this once, and he said something to the effect of, Dennis was the one with the ability to take anyone's songs - his own, Tommy's or JY's - and arrange and produce them in the best way to achieve their full potential. That's one of the most important roles he played in Styx, in my opinion. Just as important as his role as a singer, writer or instrumentalist.

Sterling

Is that why his nickname was the doctor?

Very interesting. Wow.. where would Cyclo Styx be without "Renegade"?? I don't know, the more I hear behind the scenes stuff like this, the more I'm starting to believe that they should have had to give up the Styx name once Dennis was out of the picture.

Abitaman wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

Toph wrote:

BlackWall wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, read one of Alan's interviews with DDY. Tommy came in and Renegade was a acoustic soft, CSNY type of thing. Dennis reworked it and rocked it up.

I don't know if he would talk about it now, but Tommy used to tell that same story. He said the original demo he made for "Renegade" had many, many more verses and was a traditional folk ballad. Dennis said, "Look, let's lose most of these verses so it's not so long, and we'll do it in cut time so it's not so boring."
I asked Derek Sutton about this once, and he said something to the effect of, Dennis was the one with the ability to take anyone's songs - his own, Tommy's or JY's - and arrange and produce them in the best way to achieve their full potential. That's one of the most important roles he played in Styx, in my opinion. Just as important as his role as a singer, writer or instrumentalist.

Sterling

Is that why his nickname was the doctor?

I thought that had to do with all the medications he was taking. Not illegal or anything, but I remember hearing that Dennis was a bit of a hypochondriac and always had medicine with him. Can't remember where I heard that though, could be wrong...

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

tommy had written the chorus for csa in ms funk as well as parts of the verse. jy wrote the instrumental part..dennis came up with the piano intro and added to the verses and changed the lyrics around. it was an effort by all three of the band's songwriters.

chickenbeef wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

tommy had written the chorus for csa in ms funk as well as parts of the verse. jy wrote the instrumental part..dennis came up with the piano intro and added to the verses and changed the lyrics around. it was an effort by all three of the band's songwriters.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Go away.

actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

Boomchild wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

it's 4 against 1 really and maybe 5 depending on whether jc's family owns any shares in styx

Abitaman wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

Toph wrote:

BlackWall wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

I remember hearing that Dennis originally had cut the melody for "Babe" from the same cloth as "The Grove Of Eglantine", but Tommy had recently become a fan of a new show called "Taxi", and convinced DDY to pay tribute to the theme song.

Is the "Renegade" ballad thing for real?

Yes, read one of Alan's interviews with DDY. Tommy came in and Renegade was a acoustic soft, CSNY type of thing. Dennis reworked it and rocked it up.

I don't know if he would talk about it now, but Tommy used to tell that same story. He said the original demo he made for "Renegade" had many, many more verses and was a traditional folk ballad. Dennis said, "Look, let's lose most of these verses so it's not so long, and we'll do it in cut time so it's not so boring."
I asked Derek Sutton about this once, and he said something to the effect of, Dennis was the one with the ability to take anyone's songs - his own, Tommy's or JY's - and arrange and produce them in the best way to achieve their full potential. That's one of the most important roles he played in Styx, in my opinion. Just as important as his role as a singer, writer or instrumentalist.

Sterling

Is that why his nickname was the doctor?

As far as I know, his nickname was "The Doctor" because he carried around so many vitamins and supplements. He had kind of a paranoia about his health even when he was young and went to some great lengths to try to maintain it on the road.

Sterling

chickenbeef wrote:

Toph wrote:

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

The rift was from a MS Funk song...that is it.

And Renegade would have been a ballad without Dennis...

tommy had written the chorus for csa in ms funk as well as parts of the verse. jy wrote the instrumental part..dennis came up with the piano intro and added to the verses and changed the lyrics around. it was an effort by all three of the band's songwriters.

Tommy wrote the chords for the chorus, but with a completely different lyric. That song was called "Ain't Getting Down For You" or something like that. The verse was very different. But yes, the main guitar riff is a lift from that. Dennis wrote the verse chords, the entire lyric and the vocal melody for all but the chorus. Tommy used to say that he told Dennis to simply take credit for the song because he had changed it so much that it was a completely different song that had almost nothing to do with Tommy's original intent. He probably wishes he hadn't done that now, LOL. And JY wrote that middle Who-like section. JY may have bartered his credit away to receive sole credit for "Miss America", since he admits that Dennis helped him with the chorus on that but Dennis is not credited. As always, credits are complicated with this band.

Sterling

Born4adventure wrote:

Boomchild wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

it's 4 against 1 really and maybe 5 depending on whether jc's family owns any shares in styx

Actually it was two against one. Todd has no say from a legal standpoint, and at that time Tommy didn't either because he had sold his part of Styx back to the other guys before he came back. At lest that's my understanding of it. So it was JY vs. Dennis, with Chuck holding the power to decide it all. That's why they courted him so much, everything rode on Chuck's decision for once.

JC's family receives some very modest royalties from the Wooden Nickel era and 'Equinox', and that's it. They certainly have no involvement with any of the band's business.


Sterling

brywool wrote:The rock part of Come Sail Away was also from an MS Funk song....

Guess Dennis needed them as much as they needed him.

From an old article............

During breaks from their tour, Styx recorded their third A&M album. Calling in every stroke of luck they could muster, the album was released on July 7 - the seventh day of the seventh month of the year 1977 - more 7's than Walter Payton with the football and daylight to go. Within weeks, that album - The Grand Illusion - raced up the charts, and tracks like "Come Sail Away" and "Fooling Yourself" dominated the airwaves. And although songwriting credit listed on the album may have been awarded to one person per song, the record was a collaborative effort all around.

"The chorus and a couple of parts of 'Come Sail Away' came from an MS Funk song called 'Ain't Gettin' Down,'" said Shaw. "The lyrics went like this, 'Ain't gettin' down, ain't gettin' down, ain't gettin' down for you.' Even after Crystal Ball, there were still bits and pieces of my recent past that were becoming Styx songs."

"The way the songs are credited," said JY, "there were elements in 'Come Sail Away,' that Tommy contributed to that song, while the suggestion of that outerspace middle part, and then the suggestion that the ship become a starship, those were my input into the song. Meanwhile, Dennis turned around and helped contribute a chorus idea in 'Miss America,' so we worked together on that stuff."

"'Come Sail Away' is the quintessential Styx song," said DeYoung, 'in that it embodies all the things that Styx is musically. It has the piano ballad, it has the artsy rock middle, and it has that kind of hard rock edge to it. It's all the things that the band really embodies, and that's why that song has been the most remembered of all Styx songs. After we had mixed 'Come Sail Away,' I just turned to everybody and I said 'Look, if that ain't it, I'm going back to teaching, because I can't do much better than that.'"

"That opening riff on 'Fooling Yourself,'" added JY, "Dennis heard me playing that on the keyboard one day, and he said that sounds like something, so that's how that found its way onto 'Fooling Yourself.' Even though 'Miss America' says me, and 'Come Sail Away' says Dennis, and 'Fooling Yourself' says Tommy, we had all contributed to each other's tunes."

And while Young, DeYoung and Shaw contributed to the writing, Chuck Panozzo contributed to the album cover, working with a graphic designer to adapt a Rene Magritte print for The Grand Illusion. "Some of these album covers I've been more involved in than others. I had this wonderful experience with The Grand Illusion album cover. When I brought it back to the guys, I said, 'What do you think of this?' And a few people had some other people come in, and they were making all these other suggestions, and I said 'Oh, I'll consider the other suggestions, but it's going to be this.' Because I thought this was a wonderful piece of art, and it was a great illusion in itself. That album was really a wonderful collaborative by everybody. When I look at it, back to this date it's been our largest selling album, and I know why - songs like 'Fooling Yourself' and 'Come Sail Away' are timeless classics."

Rockwriter wrote:

Born4adventure wrote:

Boomchild wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

it's 4 against 1 really and maybe 5 depending on whether jc's family owns any shares in styx

Actually it was two against one. Todd has no say from a legal standpoint, and at that time Tommy didn't either because he had sold his part of Styx back to the other guys before he came back. At lest that's my understanding of it. So it was JY vs. Dennis, with Chuck holding the power to decide it all. That's why they courted him so much, everything rode on Chuck's decision for once.

JC's family receives some very modest royalties from the Wooden Nickel era and 'Equinox', and that's it. They certainly have no involvement with any of the band's business.


Sterling

where chuck's decision goes so does john's

chickenbeef wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

Born4adventure wrote:

Boomchild wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

it's 4 against 1 really and maybe 5 depending on whether jc's family owns any shares in styx

Actually it was two against one. Todd has no say from a legal standpoint, and at that time Tommy didn't either because he had sold his part of Styx back to the other guys before he came back. At lest that's my understanding of it. So it was JY vs. Dennis, with Chuck holding the power to decide it all. That's why they courted him so much, everything rode on Chuck's decision for once.

JC's family receives some very modest royalties from the Wooden Nickel era and 'Equinox', and that's it. They certainly have no involvement with any of the band's business.


Sterling

where chuck's decision goes so does john's

That's my understanding of it, yes.


Sterling

Rockwriter wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

Born4adventure wrote:

Boomchild wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

it's 4 against 1 really and maybe 5 depending on whether jc's family owns any shares in styx

Actually it was two against one. Todd has no say from a legal standpoint, and at that time Tommy didn't either because he had sold his part of Styx back to the other guys before he came back. At lest that's my understanding of it. So it was JY vs. Dennis, with Chuck holding the power to decide it all. That's why they courted him so much, everything rode on Chuck's decision for once.

JC's family receives some very modest royalties from the Wooden Nickel era and 'Equinox', and that's it. They certainly have no involvement with any of the band's business.


Sterling

where chuck's decision goes so does john's

That's my understanding of it, yes.


Sterling

so it's like tommy jy chuck and john versus dennis...that's the majority of the band. so why shouldn't it be called styx then just becuase one guy isn't involved that's like with the moody blues today..oh denny lane isn't in it that means it's not the moody blues?

chickenbeef wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

Born4adventure wrote:

Boomchild wrote:

chickenbeef wrote:

stmonkeys wrote:actually, he's pretty accurate. why don't YOU go away?

styx is a band. always has been always will be. some people just don't get that

I agree. I also feel the band stopped being Styx when they booted DDY out. Since he had so much to do with the band direction, sound etc. I will also say that I think it wouldn't be right if DDY was the only one left in the band and was calling it Styx.

it's 4 against 1 really and maybe 5 depending on whether jc's family owns any shares in styx

Actually it was two against one. Todd has no say from a legal standpoint, and at that time Tommy didn't either because he had sold his part of Styx back to the other guys before he came back. At lest that's my understanding of it. So it was JY vs. Dennis, with Chuck holding the power to decide it all. That's why they courted him so much, everything rode on Chuck's decision for once.

JC's family receives some very modest royalties from the Wooden Nickel era and 'Equinox', and that's it. They certainly have no involvement with any of the band's business.


Sterling

where chuck's decision goes so does john's

That's my understanding of it, yes.


Sterling

so it's like tommy jy chuck and john versus dennis...that's the majority of the band. so why shouldn't it be called styx then just becuase one guy isn't involved that's like with the moody blues today..oh denny lane isn't in it that means it's not the moody blues?

Ummm, I never argued otherwise, did I? In fact, I couldn't care less who is in or who is not in Styx at this time. What possible difference does that make to me and my life?

Apart from that, it's asinine to compare the enormous contribution of Dennis to Styx to the relatively small contribution Denny made to the Moody Blues. That's hardly an even playing field.


Sterling