MR

Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

That is something to think about & i will.But i feel there others in here that could answer that.And some you may not want to hear from.Welcome to the crazy Styx forum

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or

otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

At this point it's not worth trying to figure out. The band STYX as we knew it is dead thanks to Gowan Shaw, Young, and
Chuck Panazzo. Thanks guys I hope you are proud of your stupid decisions. You really fucked up big time.

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

I would have to say that some of the members felt pressured to release the album right at that point because there was the resurgence with Styx at the time. I am sure they felt that if they delayed without really being sure of when it would happen they would lose out on this resurgence. Which to a degree seems logical. It's also possible that pressure from management and their label had influence on the matter.

As far as the Behind the Music show, I think that it's hard to really take much of it as gospel. First, people that were interviewed (non band members) for that piece have stated that some of their comments and statements were taken out of context due to the way MTV edited the show. Second, it appears to me that producers had somewhat of an agenda in the way they did the show. For example, it's clear that at least TS was interviewed at different times. in some tif the clips he has a beard and other times not. It has been said that they went back to at least TS with things that DDY said in his interview. Which they never did with DDY. DDY has stated he was only interviewed once for the piece. Lastly, I don't think that any of the members were thrilled with the end result.

I can agree that JY was influencing TS. Even though TS had issues with DDY on a personal and professional level, to the best of my knowledge he has mainly said positive things about DDY and stated the respect he has for him as a performer. JY on the other hand has done quite the opposite. JY is like a weather vein, he is going to point himself in the direction that he feels is going to be the outcome of keeping the Styx machine rolling. Mainly because outside of Styx he has no other musical carrier.

On BNW, I thought it was just O.K.. It feels fragmented and sounds more like a bunch of solo material slapped together. Something like you would expect from an artist that wasn't really interested in doing the project and was doing simply because the artist has a contractual obligation to do so. If I remember correctly, before they started working on the project one of the band members (TS maybe?) made a statement that they were looking to write material that was like what they were doing around the PO8 album or "back to their roots" so to speak. That got me really interested in the new album. As we all know none of the material that was released on that project came close to that statementl. To me, releasing that album did more harm then good. A huge let down for me.

froy wrote:

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or

otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

At this point it's not worth trying to figure out. The band STYX as we knew it is dead thanks to Gowan Shaw, Young, and
Chuck Panazzo. Thanks guys I hope you are proud of your stupid decisions. You really fucked up big time.

Run along now pigeon

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

Dennis is quoted as saying "one" band member had financial issues and needed to tour in 97. Who is he talking about? I'm sure that by 99, whoever that was probably still needed cash.

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Really? We've been beating this to death for over 10 years. Where have you been since 1999?

chowhall wrote:Dennis is quoted as saying "one" band member had financial issues and needed to tour in 97. Who is he talking about? I'm sure that by 99, whoever that was probably still needed cash.

We can speculate. It wasn't Todd I'm sure, so that leaves three suspects. Honestly, I don't think it matters one iota who it was. I will always contend the '97 tour was a bad idea. (Disclaimer: I was also jerked around a few times that year with a few things so that tour left a bad taste in my mouth for about 2 - 3 years with anything Styx related.)

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

No. They were wrestling with Dennis' control issues even before this. I also don't think it was just JY. Remember, even Chuck voted to fire Dennis. I don't think they wanted to go back to the 80's again and give Dennis so much control over everything from the concept, to what was written, to producing the album. So, the rest of the band limited him in what he COULD control. I believe Tommy said there was no point in recording if they were not going to tour. I believe the contract that held Styx together at the time gave ALBUM royalties or advances (not singles or royalties tied to songwriting credits) to Dennis and the only way the band could make any real money was to tour. I'm pretty sure that is the way it was for Edge, and I'm not sure if Tommy had any rights to anything Styx did for the BNW album...since he sold his rights to Styx. If Styx wasn't going to tour, there was no point in him staying in Styx. So, no, I don't believe for one moment that 'cooler heads' would prevail because one side or the other would NEVER be happy. Appeasing Dennis meant the rest of the band is miserable due to his control issues, and not willing to tour as much as they wanted. Dennis appeasing the rest of the band, which he didn't have much choice, meant that he cried when he heard the album. So, what you are asking is for Dennis to let go of his control AND the rest of the band to let him have more control...that just wouldn't work, and is a bit goofy to even suggest. The correct option was to fire Dennis and move on so the rest of the band could be happy. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the One.

Monker wrote:I believe Tommy said there was no point in recording if they were not going to tour.

Look at Genesis. They recorded Calling All Stations, scheduled a tour in the US, and cancelled it largely due to lack of interest and poor album sales. They are of the belief you don't tour to sell albums.

So I find the "if we're not going to tour, fuck it" excuse lame for someone who is a musician that wants to write new material. I know that when I write and arrange, I find a way to get it out there. And it's not like Tommy - who had just released 7DZ prior to BNW - did an extensive tour for that project. Does he like to tour more than Dennis? Yes. But to me, a tour shouldn't be tied to anything. And Dennis - if you believe what he says (some don't) - asked them to wait, not that he would never go on the road. That's a big difference. Most likely (and I don't remember if the BNW contract was in the lawsuit papers - been awhile since I read them) they had a hard deadline to deliver BNW and based on that, management wanted to schedule the tour soon thereafter. That made sense since it was (if I remember correctly) a late spring/early summer release. You can do the sheds ... which didn't happen. You got the CMN gig, and then all hell broke loose ...

Makes this moment much more poignant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4e9cO3px4o

StyxCollector wrote:

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Really? We've been beating this to death for over 10 years. Where have you been since 1999?

I stumbled upon this board much more recently (periodically reading for a year or so). Now that I'm getting older, I suspect I might not have as much of a life. Thus, I'm joining you all here.

Monker wrote:

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

No. They were wrestling with Dennis' control issues even before this. I also don't think it was just JY. Remember, even Chuck voted to fire Dennis. I don't think they wanted to go back to the 80's again and give Dennis so much control over everything from the concept, to what was written, to producing the album. So, the rest of the band limited him in what he COULD control. I believe Tommy said there was no point in recording if they were not going to tour. I believe the contract that held Styx together at the time gave ALBUM royalties or advances (not singles or royalties tied to songwriting credits) to Dennis and the only way the band could make any real money was to tour. I'm pretty sure that is the way it was for Edge, and I'm not sure if Tommy had any rights to anything Styx did for the BNW album...since he sold his rights to Styx. If Styx wasn't going to tour, there was no point in him staying in Styx. So, no, I don't believe for one moment that 'cooler heads' would prevail because one side or the other would NEVER be happy. Appeasing Dennis meant the rest of the band is miserable due to his control issues, and not willing to tour as much as they wanted. Dennis appeasing the rest of the band, which he didn't have much choice, meant that he cried when he heard the album. So, what you are asking is for Dennis to let go of his control AND the rest of the band to let him have more control...that just wouldn't work, and is a bit goofy to even suggest. The correct option was to fire Dennis and move on so the rest of the band could be happy. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the One.

My question was not whether cooler head's "would" prevail, but rather, if they had (which to your point, control issues that I neglected to consider would have had to have magically evaporated), would Styx had been able to build upon their legacy FURTHER, rather than separately, both camps becoming nostalgic acts, singing the exact same set every other night, with rarely any new music introduced. I'm happy they can all still make a living, even if separately. Good for Gowan too. He doesn't belong in the band. I don't mind some of his stuff, and I didn't abhor his contributions on Cyclorama, but I personally think he mangles most of the classics.

BTW - I don't recall suggesting that DDY have any more or less control, nor for the others to relinquish theirs. I simply choose to believe the grown men in their 40's/50's, with the benefit if maturity, and some painful hindsight on their side, could have seen the bigger picture, and the greater good that could have resulted from a BNW that didn't implode. Do you really think aside from being paid, that JY, TS, the rest are "really" happy w/60 minutes per night as a round-robin headliner? That notion seems goofy to me.

Let's assume DDY was a control freak - the band had a cohesive "sound", from heavier stuff through some of the ballads everyone hates (including me). As I recall, they had themselves a pretty good run ceding to Dennis' every whim. They had such a great sound TOGETHER. Name 5 other bands whose harmonies rivals DDY, TS, and JY. I guess I'm just old fashioned, and want the original. Yikes, that nostalgic.

At the end of the day, I guess it's all conjecture, and no good comes of that. It doesn't change anything. So I guess there's no point pondering. Carry on with bashing each other's opinions.

Name 5??? I can't name ONE!!! Nobody rivals those incredible harmonies.

cittadeeno23 wrote:Name 5??? I can't name ONE!!! Nobody rivals those incredible harmonies.

Eagles
Little River Band
are two that come to mind, they are good, but better? na

Abitaman wrote:

cittadeeno23 wrote:Name 5??? I can't name ONE!!! Nobody rivals those incredible harmonies.

Eagles
Little River Band
are two that come to mind, they are good, but better? na

Hadn't thought about the Eagles. I actually think their harmonies are right there. Unfortunately, the only Styx show I ever saw live was EOTC.

I saw the Eagles last summer (Long Road Out of Eden Tour). It was an incredible 3+ hours of new (I think they did 5 or 6 songs off of LROOE) music, and practically every other known classic, of which there are many. It was them, and only them. That's what Styx s/b doing.

I've seen every Styx show from 1975-1997. And I've seen LRB and The Eagles. LRB is tighter than the Eagles. The Eagles have tons of talent, but I just never really cared for them.
But I still think Styx sings better than anyone. Even Queen. I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but I like what I like!

Monker wrote:

Keiferb wrote:Not a reference to the song. I don't recall ever seeing this discussed before, so apologies if I'm dredging up old topics.

Rewind back to '99, when Brave New World was under way. DDY comes down with the "illness" (whether real, contrived, or otherwise), and all goes to hell. I think I heard (or read) that he asked them to wait until he was "better" (whenever that was going to be), but the band goes their own way, and finishes the album separately. Whatever. The end result was a disjointed collection of individual contributions that didn't have the "Styx mix" applied. I say all of this, and frankly, I like much of BNW - the individual songs. OK, Hip-O-Cracy can go (and the crappy album cover), but nonetheless, you could tell that it was a collection of TS/JY & DDY penned singles that if, produced together, as a band, could have been much more.

Then, in a race to support said effort, band decides it can't wait, and MUST hit the road immediately. Bring in the replacement, hit the road, the rest is history.

Whether right or wrong, I was never sure whether to believe everything I saw in the famed Behind the Music, but I have chosen to believe that JY had TS's ear, and given he'd been pissed already for numerous years (whether legitimate or not), willed his way to finish the BNW debacle, race it to the streets, and carry on the immediate tour. Not sure what the dire urgency was, because there hadn't been any new material in 9 years going back to EOTC. So really, why couldn't they have waited. If the only issue was their own perceived relevance, or simply the desire to create new music, I fail to see what another 6-12 months would have mattered (unless of course, there was some contractual obligation at play).

So, does anyone believe that if cooler heads and/or a little patience had prevailed, or if TS could have/would have pushed back a little, that the course of the last 12 years or so would be different - better, or worse? I'd think that if they had collaborated together, STYX'ized the stinkin' album, and toured in their "Hey Day" configuration, that Styx World may today be in a better place. JY, why must you be such an Angry Young Man? When your future looked quite bright.

Again, not knockin' the fact they've moved on. I just wonder, What If.

No. They were wrestling with Dennis' control issues even before this. I also don't think it was just JY. Remember, even Chuck voted to fire Dennis. I don't think they wanted to go back to the 80's again and give Dennis so much control over everything from the concept, to what was written, to producing the album. So, the rest of the band limited him in what he COULD control. I believe Tommy said there was no point in recording if they were not going to tour. I believe the contract that held Styx together at the time gave ALBUM royalties or advances (not singles or royalties tied to songwriting credits) to Dennis and the only way the band could make any real money was to tour. I'm pretty sure that is the way it was for Edge, and I'm not sure if Tommy had any rights to anything Styx did for the BNW album...since he sold his rights to Styx. If Styx wasn't going to tour, there was no point in him staying in Styx. So, no, I don't believe for one moment that 'cooler heads' would prevail because one side or the other would NEVER be happy. Appeasing Dennis meant the rest of the band is miserable due to his control issues, and not willing to tour as much as they wanted. Dennis appeasing the rest of the band, which he didn't have much choice, meant that he cried when he heard the album. So, what you are asking is for Dennis to let go of his control AND the rest of the band to let him have more control...that just wouldn't work, and is a bit goofy to even suggest. The correct option was to fire Dennis and move on so the rest of the band could be happy. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the One.

Actually, I think it's hard to comment on anything about what band contracts were in place at the time of BNW. IF TS had recommitted himself to Styx I would think that new contracts or agreements were made when they reformed in '96. As far as discussing issues of "DDY trying to still control everything" I never heard any of the membrs mention that was going on at that time. In reality, all that is publicly known is that there were issues surrounding DDY's illness and that he was not able to commit to a tour. I can certainly understand if DDY was upset with the end result of BNW. It doesn't even sound like a Styx record at all. That's regardless of who was in control of final production. I can't believe that the other members feel that BNW sounds like Styx.

cittadeeno23 wrote:Name 5??? I can't name ONE!!! Nobody rivals those incredible harmonies.

Yep, that's what convinced me that music critics are stone deaf.

Boomchild wrote:

cittadeeno23 wrote:Name 5??? I can't name ONE!!! Nobody rivals those incredible harmonies.

Yep, that's what convinced me that music critics are stone deaf.

csny, the beatles, yes, bee gees

cittadeeno23 wrote:I've seen every Styx show from 1975-1997. And I've seen LRB and The Eagles. LRB is tighter than the Eagles. The Eagles have tons of talent, but I just never really cared for them.
But I still think Styx sings better than anyone. Even Queen. I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but I like what I like!

That is fine you feel that way about Queen.But they always rocked to me anyway.JMO!

cittadeeno23 wrote:Name 5??? I can't name ONE!!! Nobody rivals those incredible harmonies.

King's X.

Actually, I think it's hard to comment on anything about what band contracts were in place at the time of BNW. IF TS had recommitted himself to Styx I would think that new contracts or agreements were made when they reformed in '96. As far as discussing issues of "DDY trying to still control everything" I never heard any of the membrs mention that was going on at that time. In reality, all that is publicly known is that there were issues surrounding DDY's illness and that he was not able to commit to a tour. I can certainly understand if DDY was upset with the end result of BNW. It doesn't even sound like a Styx record at all. That's regardless of who was in control of final production. I can't believe that the other members feel that BNW sounds like Styx.[/quote]

The other members were dealing with years of issues, not just BNW era, to form their opinions, feelings at that time. We all comment on what should have been done but only the band members haved lived through it. Some of you comment like you were actually there and are now traumatized somehow by the actions of some members. I guess I didn't realize Styx had that many people in it's inner circle.

Boomchild wrote: As far as discussing issues of "DDY trying to still control everything" I never heard any of the membrs mention that was going on at that time.

Oh, please, all you have to do is read Dennis' interviews and see how much he wanted to control everything, that he cried when the production was not up to HIS standards. Then, of course, he shortened the 97 tour so he could work on Hunchback. These things never end for him...and I'm sure that had a lot to do with them recording/producing the BNW songs separately. Then he wanted to decide when the tour should start, if they toured at all, that they had to wait for health issues....it NEVER ENDS. I would be sick of it if I were in the band too.

I can certainly understand if DDY was upset with the end result of BNW.

He wasn't 'upset' until it became clear he was out of the band. Funny how that worked out.

It doesn't even sound like a Styx record at all. That's regardless of who was in control of final production. I can't believe that the other members feel that BNW sounds like Styx.

If Dennis had remained in the band, I bet you would be saying something different.

Mr JY Roboto wrote: The other members were dealing with years of issues, not just BNW era, to form their opinions, feelings at that time. We all comment on what should have been done but only the band members haved lived through it. Some of you comment like you were actually there and are now traumatized somehow by the actions of some members. I guess I didn't realize Styx had that many people in it's inner circle.

+1

Boomchild wrote: As far as discussing issues of "DDY trying to still control everything" I never heard any of the membrs mention that was going on at that time.

Monker wrote:Oh, please, all you have to do is read Dennis' interviews and see how much he wanted to control everything, that he cried when the production was not up to HIS standards. Then, of course, he shortened the 97 tour so he could work on Hunchback. These things never end for him...and I'm sure that had a lot to do with them recording/producing the BNW songs separately. Then he wanted to decide when the tour should start, if they toured at all, that they had to wait for health issues....it NEVER ENDS. I would be sick of it if I were in the band too.

The '97 tour was not even supposed to have happened. DDY agreed to do it when asked to because someone in the band needed the money. So if it was not originally in the works then I can understand that DDY may have had other plans and projects lined up before they asked him to do it. So he found a way to make it work. The main reason BNW ended up being produced the way it was is due to the fact that TS told DDY "it was not in his best interest" to finish the project because DDY could not commit to starting the tour as originally planned. So that is when the communication problems between band members started and that is why it was finished the way it was. You like to talk so much about everyone but DDY being a team player and then TS does something like this. That shows you who he is really looking out for, it's himself. If DDY was in control of everything then how did TS' idea of making BNW the concept for the album? DDY never said "I don't want to tour at all to support BNW". All he said was that due to his health issues he couldn't start the tour as originally planned. Which is understandable.

Boomchild wrote:I can certainly understand if DDY was upset with the end result of BNW.

Monker wrote:He wasn't 'upset' until it became clear he was out of the band. Funny how that worked out.

That's your speculation. All we know is that after DDY heard the finished project he asked TS not to release it and rework some of it.

boomchild wrote:It doesn't even sound like a Styx record at all. That's regardless of who was in control of final production. I can't believe that the other members feel that BNW sounds like Styx.

Mnoker wrote:If Dennis had remained in the band, I bet you would be saying something different.

I really couldn't say, because that is something that will never occur. It's just like me saying if DDY was still in the band you would be singing the praises of everything on BNW except for DDY's contributions. But, that is not something I would say because I don't know you.

Mr JY Roboto wrote:The other members were dealing with years of issues, not just BNW era, to form their opinions, feelings at that time. We all comment on what should have been done but only the band members haved lived through it. Some of you comment like you were actually there and are now traumatized somehow by the actions of some members. I guess I didn't realize Styx had that many people in it's inner circle.

I don't think anyone who is rational would say otherwise. Some of us have seen a bit of the inside, but only JY, DDY, Chuck, and Tommy (RIP John) really know what happened. I don't think any of them are saints here. Like I've said, I don't believe long term Styx would have stayed together no matter what - people here are acting like they would have.

After EOTC, it was all but done and the somewhat surprise success of GH got them back together on the Today Show and the rest is history. I think that the early reunion with Tommy had that "isn't this great" euphoria, but I'm sure that wore off and the tensions of the past which probably were not 100% dealt with crept back in. 1997 tour aside, things seemed fine as evidenced by the TS 7DZ Borders stop in Chicago where DDY appeared. Things clearly went south after that. What happened proverbially behind closed doors between then and the release of BNW ... none of us will know. Clearly it was ugly. Clearly the "stone was cracked" (to use a Journey phrase).

Even if whatever happened in those few months didn't break down, BNW was not destined to sell a ton of copies even if it was a cohesive album without the problems it has as we all know the final product. So maybe we would have had one more tour with Dennis, and things probably would have gone to hell or at least the band may have gone on some sort of hiatus. Of course that's speculation on my part, but you certainly wouldn't have had Cyclorama otherwise.

Boomchild wrote:

Monker wrote:Oh, please, all you have to do is read Dennis' interviews and see how much he wanted to control everything, that he cried when the production was not up to HIS standards. Then, of course, he shortened the 97 tour so he could work on Hunchback. These things never end for him...and I'm sure that had a lot to do with them recording/producing the BNW songs separately. Then he wanted to decide when the tour should start, if they toured at all, that they had to wait for health issues....it NEVER ENDS. I would be sick of it if I were in the band too.

The '97 tour was not even supposed to have happened. DDY agreed to do it when asked to because someone in the band needed the money. So if it was not originally in the works then I can understand that DDY may have had other plans and projects lined up before they asked him to do it. So he found a way to make it work. The main reason BNW ended up being produced the way it was is due to the fact that TS told DDY "it was not in his best interest" to finish the project because DDY could not commit to starting the tour as originally planned. So that is when the communication problems between band members started and that is why it was finished the way it was. You like to talk so much about everyone but DDY being a team player and then TS does something like this. That shows you who he is really looking out for, it's himself. If DDY was in control of everything then how did TS' idea of making BNW the concept for the album? DDY never said "I don't want to tour at all to support BNW". All he said was that due to his health issues he couldn't start the tour as originally planned. Which is understandable.

LOL...so you totally ignore everything and go drink Dennis' bathwater. And, then you throw up a post giving Dennis a pity part. Too funny. You have one discussion where you are arguing about how cut-throat the business is nowadays, and then Dennis gets his nicked cut off.

I never said DDY was in control of BNW. I said the others did not LET him have control. Basically, you just made that argument for me. I think he tried, and it drove him nuts that he wasn't in control anymore.

Monker wrote:He wasn't 'upset' until it became clear he was out of the band. Funny how that worked out.

That's your speculation. All we know is that after DDY heard the finished project he asked TS not to release it and rework some of it.

No it's not. If you read his early interview, he didn't go all critical over BNW. But, after it was clear he was out of the band, he went all ballistic about it...saying he cried when he heard it, saying how he could have made Witness a big hit...blah, blah, blah.

I really couldn't say, because that is something that will never occur. It's just like me saying if DDY was still in the band you would be singing the praises of everything on BNW except for DDY's contributions. But, that is not something I would say because I don't know you.

Tommy's songs were great, the JY/Tommy songs were average to weak. DDY's were all weak, including Roseland...and his were the weakest on the album by far. That opinion would not change no matter who was in the band today.

StyxCollector wrote:

Mr JY Roboto wrote:The other members were dealing with years of issues, not just BNW era, to form their opinions, feelings at that time. We all comment on what should have been done but only the band members haved lived through it. Some of you comment like you were actually there and are now traumatized somehow by the actions of some members. I guess I didn't realize Styx had that many people in it's inner circle.

I don't think anyone who is rational would say otherwise. Some of us have seen a bit of the inside, but only JY, DDY, Chuck, and Tommy (RIP John) really know what happened. I don't think any of them are saints here. Like I've said, I don't believe long term Styx would have stayed together no matter what - people here are acting like they would have.

After EOTC, it was all but done and the somewhat surprise success of GH got them back together on the Today Show and the rest is history. I think that the early reunion with Tommy had that "isn't this great" euphoria, but I'm sure that wore off and the tensions of the past which probably were not 100% dealt with crept back in. 1997 tour aside, things seemed fine as evidenced by the TS 7DZ Borders stop in Chicago where DDY appeared. Things clearly went south after that. What happened proverbially behind closed doors between then and the release of BNW ... none of us will know. Clearly it was ugly. Clearly the "stone was cracked" (to use a Journey phrase).

Even if whatever happened in those few months didn't break down, BNW was not destined to sell a ton of copies even if it was a cohesive album without the problems it has as we all know the final product. So maybe we would have had one more tour with Dennis, and things probably would have gone to hell or at least the band may have gone on some sort of hiatus. Of course that's speculation on my part, but you certainly wouldn't have had Cyclorama otherwise.

I continue to choose to believe that what happened behind closed doors was JY - simple as that. It would have been easy, at the time, to sway TS, given the timing of the "illness". I sometimes wonder if TS is still "all the way" in JY's camp today, like he was back then. Even if I'm wrong, you are probably right that even if BNW wasn't the failure it was, and if there had been a tour w/all the remaining originals (no Gowan, etc.), it probably would have been short lived. And that really is too bad, in the grand picture. I suppose it's simply fruitless wishful thinking to feel they should have all been able to ignore the past problems, bitterness, tensions, etc., and that they'd still be making new music together currently. It's funny - didn't the Eagles have the same jaded history, always fighting, and pissing on each others cereal? Yet they managed some periodic new material in support of Hell Freezes Over, a more recent double length album of all new music, and 2 years (OK, not continuous) of touring. BTW, I happen to think the first disk of LROOE (much of it, anyway) rivals that of some of their classic tunes. If this were an Eagle board, I'm sure I'd receive some venom for that opinion.

Keiferb wrote:I continue to choose to believe that what happened behind closed doors was JY - simple as that. It would have been easy, at the time, to sway TS, given the timing of the "illness". I sometimes wonder if TS is still "all the way" in JY's camp today, like he was back then. Even if I'm wrong, you are probably right that even if BNW wasn't the failure it was, and if there had been a tour w/all the remaining originals (no Gowan, etc.), it probably would have been short lived. And that really is too bad, in the grand picture. I suppose it's simply fruitless wishful thinking to feel they should have all been able to ignore the past problems, bitterness, tensions, etc., and that they'd still be making new music together currently. It's funny - didn't the Eagles have the same jaded history, always fighting, and pissing on each others cereal? Yet they managed some periodic new material in support of Hell Freezes Over, a more recent double length album of all new music, and 2 years (OK, not continuous) of touring. BTW, I happen to think the first disk of LROOE (much of it, anyway) rivals that of some of their classic tunes. If this were an Eagle board, I'm sure I'd receive some venom for that opinion.

Look at the drama they had with Don Felder (whose book is very good, BTW). Do you really think the guys in the Eagles are best buds? Most classic bands are together as business concerns moreso than musical soulmates and can fake loving each other for 90 - 120 minutes a night for the right price. With the Eagles you're talking a TON of cashola. Lots of incentive for everyone to make it work! Same could be said for a group like the Rolling Stones, too. Styx is neither of those - their interpersonal problems couldn't be overcome by money, although if they were making Eagles or Stones money, I bet they could suck up playing "Babe" a whole lot (purely my speculation, but they did it for the better part of 20 years and even on the CMN gig they fake it pretty well) and you may have seen some Dennis involvement for some period of time post-1999, but as I've said, I don't think the marriage was going to last no matter what.

The problem in most bands usually comes down to two main issues:
a) Control
b) Money

Dennis still makes a shitload of money due to songwriting royalties (although Tommy isn't cash poor from it ... or shouldn't be), and has been argued 'til the cows come home, control was clearly an issue.

Also keep in mind the Eagles had at least one aborted attempt at a new album between Hell Freezes Over and what you got at Wal Mart. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us). Sounds like problems not unlike BNW, but BNW got released.

Monker wrote:Oh, please, all you have to do is read Dennis' interviews and see how much he wanted to control everything, that he cried when the production was not up to HIS standards. Then, of course, he shortened the 97 tour so he could work on Hunchback. These things never end for him...and I'm sure that had a lot to do with them recording/producing the BNW songs separately. Then he wanted to decide when the tour should start, if they toured at all, that they had to wait for health issues....it NEVER ENDS. I would be sick of it if I were in the band too.

Boomchild wrote:The '97 tour was not even supposed to have happened. DDY agreed to do it when asked to because someone in the band needed the money. So if it was not originally in the works then I can understand that DDY may have had other plans and projects lined up before they asked him to do it. So he found a way to make it work. The main reason BNW ended up being produced the way it was is due to the fact that TS told DDY "it was not in his best interest" to finish the project because DDY could not commit to starting the tour as originally planned. So that is when the communication problems between band members started and that is why it was finished the way it was. You like to talk so much about everyone but DDY being a team player and then TS does something like this. That shows you who he is really looking out for, it's himself. If DDY was in control of everything then how did TS' idea of making BNW the concept for the album? DDY never said "I don't want to tour at all to support BNW". All he said was that due to his health issues he couldn't start the tour as originally planned. Which is understandable.

Monker wrote:LOL...so you totally ignore everything and go drink Dennis' bathwater. And, then you throw up a post giving Dennis a pity part. Too funny. You have one discussion where you are arguing about how cut-throat the business is nowadays, and then Dennis gets his nicked cut off.

I am not ignoring anything. You stated that DDY cut short the '97 tour. You do not know how long the tour was supposed to be, if you do please point me to it. I am not giving DDY a pity party. All I said was that it is not difficult to understand that if someone is ill that plans may need to be delayed. I am only stating what is known based on statements by the people who were actually there.

Monker wrote:He wasn't 'upset' until it became clear he was out of the band. Funny how that worked out.

Boomchild wrote:That's your speculation. All we know is that after DDY heard the finished project he asked TS not to release it and rework some of it.

Monker wrote:No it's not. If you read his early interview, he didn't go all critical over BNW. But, after it was clear he was out of the band, he went all ballistic about it...saying he cried when he heard it, saying how he could have made Witness a big hit...blah, blah, blah.

He gave his opinion because someone asked him. The fact that you consider his comments "ballistic" is just too funny. You act like he was screaming from the roof top about it. He basically stated that he felt it was "an album of missed opportunities" and if he had more input on it he would have done some things differently. It had nothing to do with him being out of the band. He has always been critical about some of Styx's material. Just look at his comments about the Wooden Nickel albums.

Boomchild wrote:I really couldn't say, because that is something that will never occur. It's just like me saying if DDY was still in the band you would be singing the praises of everything on BNW except for DDY's contributions. But, that is not something I would say because I don't know you.

Mnoker wrote:Tommy's songs were great, the JY/Tommy songs were average to weak. DDY's were all weak, including Roseland...and his were the weakest on the album by far. That opinion would not change no matter who was in the band

The whole thing was weak since they were on a different page. They should have scrapped it. As I said before, it did more harm then good to their reputation.