MR

Here is the link to the archived show of Todd's appearance on Long Live Rock http://www.wewillrockyoublog.com/2010/0 ... live-rock/

This turned out very well, I thought. Thanks once again to Todd, who was not feeling well and did this anyway for us. We talked about the upcoming tour, 'Regeneration,' his DVD, the state of the music business and more.

Sterling

Do you know if chuck is on regeneration at all sterling? Once again it was an awesome interview.

Everett wrote:Do you know if chuck is on regeneration at all sterling? Once again it was an awesome interview.

Thanks, Todd is great!

I don't know for sure but I think only Ricky plays bass on 'Regeneration.'

Sterling

Just to share a little tidbit from this interview for those who might not have heard it, we asked Todd about illegal downloading and how it plays into the band's business decisions. He stated that his DVD 'Methods and Mechanics' has been downloaded illegally 200,000 times . . . that he knows of.

At a list price of $29.95, if you do a little math, that comes to $5,990,000.00.

That's right. So-called "fans" have ripped Todd off to the tune of just under SIX MILLION DOLLARS on that one project alone. And then people get on here and kinda wonder why their favorite bands don't rush right out and record a new album of songs.

Here's the answer: it's because the band will have to take a break from performing (which is the only thing left that can't be stolen). They will lose money there. They will have to spend valuable time writing, woodshedding, pre-production, recording. They will have to figure out a way to get the product in front of fans, whether it's the Internet, some distributor, selling at shows or some combination thereof.

Then the day after the product emerges, it will be available all over the world for free download, and despite the innocent protestations of fans everwhere that they don't do that, the numbers clearly state otherwise. Most fans - the vast overwhelming majority in fact - will download the thing free somewhere instead of paying, and they will justify it to themsleves with some sort of self-serving nonsense about "That's what you get when you charge too much" or some other silly-ass argument. (Hey, here's an idea: if you think something is priced too high, DON'T BUY IT! That doesn't mean you can steal it! If you think dog food is too high at Wal Mart, can you just TAKE it?)

And those who DO actually buy a new album will probably come here and bitch about it and pull it apart track-by-track. Gee . . . I wonder why the guys don't want to do that?


Sterling

Sterling;

With all due respect.

I kinda call bullshit on Todd's numbers.

I seriously doubt there are 200,000 drummers out there with know how to find it, and knowledge of Todd who would go out and rip him off that way. Having downloaded music in my past (yes, I admit I did it before - but don't anymore) I can sincerely tell you that on the sites I trafficed (which were popular) the most a popular album like Metallica's black album would have been downloaded were several thousand... maybe 10 thousand on the high end.

There is no way in God's Green Earth that a drummer DVD for a reasonably obscure drummer even (no offense) is going to have his work ripped off to the tune of 6 million dollars. That's a real stretch.

And besides, how would he know? Do they now track the number of downloads?

Sorry - but just like politicians and radio stations can throw out statistics and numbers to say they're #1, I don't believe these numbers.

To further illustrate my point.

I did a google search for "Methods and Mechanics torrent" which is what you'd search to find a torrent file. The first result is this:

http://www.torrent2crazy.com/search/tod ... +mechanics

Now this site states it's been downloaded almost 10,000 times. Which is fake.... because if you click to download this file you are taken to a paywall where you need to fork over money to download it from this site. And then, the joke is - once you've paid - the file isn't there. It was a complete scam to get your money.

So take all of this with a grain of salt. If he's basing his numbers on these sites which report arbitrary download figures to scam people out of their money, then ... to quote a famous band.... he's fooling himself.

Rockwriter wrote:Just to share a little tidbit from this interview for those who might not have heard it, we asked Todd about illegal downloading and how it plays into the band's business decisions. He stated that his DVD 'Methods and Mechanics' has been downloaded illegally 200,000 times . . . that he knows of.

At a list price of $29.95, if you do a little math, that comes to $5,990,000.00.

That's right. So-called "fans" have ripped Todd off to the tune of just under SIX MILLION DOLLARS on that one project alone. And then people get on here and kinda wonder why their favorite bands don't rush right out and record a new album of songs.

Here's the answer: it's because the band will have to take a break from performing (which is the only thing left that can't be stolen). They will lose money there. They will have to spend valuable time writing, woodshedding, pre-production, recording. They will have to figure out a way to get the product in front of fans, whether it's the Internet, some distributor, selling at shows or some combination thereof.

Then the day after the product emerges, it will be available all over the world for free download, and despite the innocent protestations of fans everwhere that they don't do that, the numbers clearly state otherwise. Most fans - the vast overwhelming majority in fact - will download the thing free somewhere instead of paying, and they will justify it to themsleves with some sort of self-serving nonsense about "That's what you get when you charge too much" or some other silly-ass argument. (Hey, here's an idea: if you think something is priced too high, DON'T BUY IT! That doesn't mean you can steal it! If you think dog food is too high at Wal Mart, can you just TAKE it?)

And those who DO actually buy a new album will probably come here and bitch about it and pull it apart track-by-track. Gee . . . I wonder why the guys don't want to do that?


Sterling

Since your comments seem to be in response to what I brought up---

Yeah, I did listen to the interview. Twice. I love Todd. He's a great mouthpiece for the band and one of the best drummers I've heard in years. I'm one of his 'so called' fans.

First of all- Just because 200,000 people downloaded Todd's DVD, does NOT mean that 200,000 would've purchased it. Educational Drum DVDs (guitar dvds, basket weaving dvds, etc.) are not usually going to sell in the 100,000 range. I have a hard time believing that 200,000 drummers are sitting at their keyboards downloading the huge files. SOMEBODY is, I guess, unless those numbers can be interpreted differently. But again, that doesn't translate directly into sales.

If DVDs are rented on Netflix, people can pretty much copy them if they know what they're doing. Just like you could tape albums. I guess that entertainers need to quit letting NetFlix and other services stop doing what they're doing. Netflix and other service rentals open the door for copying things. Just like going to a library and checking out a CD and then recording that CD at your home. I did that with my first Crowded House CD. From then on, I purchased all of em and have seen a few of their shows. Renting or checking things out is a way to get into new things and for the entertainer to broaden their audience, but it's also a way for the artist to lose money. What's more important?

When Journey's arrival ended up out there online, I downloaded it. It wasn't going to come out until months later in the US than in Japan and I'm a rabid fan, so I downloaded it.
I still PURCHASED the album (and had always planned to) when it finally came out as I have purchased all of them. With Styx, I have never NOT purchased an album of theirs that I own. In fact, I have them on vinyl AND CD. I purchased their stuff twice (some collectible stuff even more times). So Styx has gotten a lot of money off me. Not counting concerts, tshirts, etc. Also, I recorded their albums on cassettes and drove around with them in my car for years before CDs. Craiko Rules! I guess that makes me one of the people that Styx feels ripped them off.

Also, you and everyone else out there (Including Styx, including Journey) give MELODICROCK.COM'S message boards WAYYY too much credit. MR.com is NOT the general public. It's a microcosm of the population. So what if fans pick the album apart?? Fans have ALWAYS done that. Crappy mags like Rolling Stone have always done that. By the way- I VEHEMENTLY championed "Cyclorama" and spread good reviews of it everywhere I could find because it was an EXCELLENT record. I spread those reviews ONLINE. If the label that Styx was on, or their management, didn't have enough clout to break that album, I don't think that Styx should blame it on "so called fans".

Regarding "If something's too much, don't buy it"- Exactly! Like a $30.00 EP.

I guess the band should just give up and every other musician, author, movie producer, etc. out there should do the same.
The record companies obviously can't figure out what to do. The fact of the matter is, things like iPods, Zune, Phones, etc. have ALL encouraged and promoted the "digitizing" of music. It's another way of selling an artist's product. If band's don't like it, then they shouldn't participate.

How do bands like U2 have these HUGE mega bazillion dollar tours? How are they selling so many records? I GUARAN-FRIGGIN-TEE you that U2 is being downloaded on a way larger scale than Styx music or Todd's DVD could ever hope to be. Yet, when U2 release CDs, they sell a ton. Most of them are top ten. Are they giving up or whining at their fanbase and accusing their fans of ripping them off? No. Leave that to Metalica.
So HOW are bands like U2 making it work? THAT is what the band should be asking themselves. Other entities out there are making it work and are creating NEW art for their fans.

Also- At the Styx shows- MOST of the fans that go to the shows want to hear the OLD stuff. If it was truly "Release new music, it's online the next day and 8 billion people have downloaded it" then I would think more people at Styx (or any other artist's) shows would be up on their new catalog and demanding to hear the new stuff they just downloaded rather than old stuff their parents had.

I'm not justifying the pirating of music. Absolutely not. Any music I've downloaded has been stuff that was out of print and couldn't be purchased for the most part. I've bought iTunes stuff (I bought CYO on iTunes, Walrus, and other things there) and I've bought hard copies of things a few times- by the way- I hate to admit it... the first CD I ever purchased was "Kilroy Was Here". The Beatles stuff hadn't been released on CD yet.

By the way Sterling, your Grand Delusion book is out on Google books and I can read 106 pages of it for free...

I mean no disrespect to Todd, Styx, and definitely not you Sterling. But I find Styx's argument for not doing new things really has a few holes in it and as a fan, I take exception to some of the comments that I heard in the interview and in your post above.

One more thing- I'm ONE guy. ONE guy is not the "majority of fans". But I am ONE guy that will buy anything NEW Styx puts out and have probably since before young Todd heard the band as a kid. I'm older than him.

Something else I just thought of that I should mention.

I bought the Cracker album "Sunrise in the Land of Milk and Honey" and it's catapulted Cracker into one of my favorite bands of all time. BUT.. I bought the CD... sure enough on iTunes they had the same CD, but with a bonus track I could only get if I..... (wait for it)... bought the whole album.

Conversely on Amazon.com they also had "Sunrise" with a DIFFERENT bonus track than itunes. Of course I could only get that ........ IF I bought the whole album from there too.

So I'd have to buy the same album 3 times just to get 2 additional songs?

Now you tell me who is ripping off who?

Ash wrote:To further illustrate my point.

I did a google search for "Methods and Mechanics torrent" which is what you'd search to find a torrent file. The first result is this:

http://www.torrent2crazy.com/search/tod ... +mechanics

Now this site states it's been downloaded almost 10,000 times. Which is fake.... because if you click to download this file you are taken to a paywall where you need to fork over money to download it from this site. And then, the joke is - once you've paid - the file isn't there. It was a complete scam to get your money.

So take all of this with a grain of salt. If he's basing his numbers on these sites which report arbitrary download figures to scam people out of their money, then ... to quote a famous band.... he's fooling himself.

Trust me, a full torrent of Todd's dvd IS out there and can be had by someone who knows what they're doing (for free). Todd's right. The files are out there. But to equate that with 200,000 in lost sales is skewing the data.

brywool wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:Just to share a little tidbit from this interview for those who might not have heard it, we asked Todd about illegal downloading and how it plays into the band's business decisions. He stated that his DVD 'Methods and Mechanics' has been downloaded illegally 200,000 times . . . that he knows of.

At a list price of $29.95, if you do a little math, that comes to $5,990,000.00.

That's right. So-called "fans" have ripped Todd off to the tune of just under SIX MILLION DOLLARS on that one project alone. And then people get on here and kinda wonder why their favorite bands don't rush right out and record a new album of songs.

Here's the answer: it's because the band will have to take a break from performing (which is the only thing left that can't be stolen). They will lose money there. They will have to spend valuable time writing, woodshedding, pre-production, recording. They will have to figure out a way to get the product in front of fans, whether it's the Internet, some distributor, selling at shows or some combination thereof.

Then the day after the product emerges, it will be available all over the world for free download, and despite the innocent protestations of fans everwhere that they don't do that, the numbers clearly state otherwise. Most fans - the vast overwhelming majority in fact - will download the thing free somewhere instead of paying, and they will justify it to themsleves with some sort of self-serving nonsense about "That's what you get when you charge too much" or some other silly-ass argument. (Hey, here's an idea: if you think something is priced too high, DON'T BUY IT! That doesn't mean you can steal it! If you think dog food is too high at Wal Mart, can you just TAKE it?)

And those who DO actually buy a new album will probably come here and bitch about it and pull it apart track-by-track. Gee . . . I wonder why the guys don't want to do that?


Sterling

Since your comments seem to be in response to what I brought up---

Yeah, I did listen to the interview. Twice. I love Todd. He's a great mouthpiece for the band and one of the best drummers I've heard in years. I'm one of his 'so called' fans.

First of all- Just because 200,000 people downloaded Todd's DVD, does NOT mean that 200,000 would've purchased it. Educational Drum DVDs (guitar dvds, basket weaving dvds, etc.) are not usually going to sell in the 100,000 range. I have a hard time believing that 200,000 drummers are sitting at their keyboards downloading the huge files. SOMEBODY is, I guess, unless those numbers can be interpreted differently. But again, that doesn't translate directly into sales.

If DVDs are rented on Netflix, people can pretty much copy them if they know what they're doing. I guess that entertainers need to quit letting NetFlix and other services stop doing what they're doing. Netflix and other service rentals open the door for copying things. Just like going to a library and checking out a CD and then recording that CD at your home. I did that with my first Crowded House CD. From then on, I purchased all of em and have seen a few of their shows. Renting or checking things out is a way to get into new things and for the entertainer to broaden their audience, but it's also a way for the artist to lose money. What's more important?

When Journey's arrival ended up out there online, I downloaded it. It wasn't going to come out until months later in the US than in Japan and I'm a rabid fan, so I downloaded it.
I still PURCHASED the album (and had always planned to) when it finally came out as I have purchased all of them. With Styx, I have never NOT purchased an album of theirs that I own. In fact, I have them on vinyl AND CD. I purchased their stuff twice (some collectible stuff even more times). So Styx has gotten a lot of money off me. Not counting concerts, tshirts, etc. Also, I recorded their albums on cassettes and drove around with them in my car for years before CDs. Craiko Rules! I guess that makes me one of the people that Styx feels ripped them off.

Also, you and everyone else out there (Including Styx, including Journey) give MELODICROCK.COM'S message boards WAYYY too much credit. MR.com is NOT the general public. It's a microcosm of the population. So what if fans pick the album apart?? Fans have ALWAYS done that. Crappy mags like Rolling Stone have always done that. By the way- I VEHEMENTLY championed "Cyclorama" and spread good reviews of it everywhere I could find because it was an EXCELLENT record. I spread those reviews ONLINE. If the label that Styx was on, or their management, didn't have enough clout to break that album, I don't think that Styx should blame it on "so called fans".

Regarding "If something's too much, don't buy it"- Exactly! Like a $30.00 EP.

I guess the band should just give up and every other musician, author, movie producer, etc. out there should do the same.
The record companies obviously can't figure out what to do. The fact of the matter is, things like iPods, Zune, Phones, etc. have ALL encouraged and promoted the "digitizing" of music. It's another way of selling an artist's product. If band's don't like it, then they shouldn't participate.

How do bands like U2 have these HUGE mega bazillion dollar tours? How are they selling so many records? I GUARAN-FRIGGIN-TEE you that U2 is being downloaded on a way larger scale than Styx music or Todd's DVD could ever hope to be. Yet, when U2 release CDs, they sell a ton. Most of them are top ten. Are they giving up or whining at their fanbase and accusing their fans of ripping them off? No. Leave that to Metalica.
So HOW are bands like U2 making it work? THAT is what the band should be asking themselves. Other entities out there are making it work and are creating NEW art for their fans.

Also- At the Styx shows- MOST of the fans that go to the shows want to hear the OLD stuff. If it was truly "Release new music, it's online the next day and 8 billion people have downloaded it" then I would think more people at Styx (or any other artist's) shows would be up on their new catalog and demanding to hear the new stuff they just downloaded rather than old stuff their parents had.

I'm not justifying the pirating of music. Absolutely not. Any music I've downloaded has been stuff that was out of print and couldn't be purchased for the most part. I've bought iTunes stuff (I bought CYO on iTunes, Walrus, and other things there) and I've bought hard copies of things a few times- by the way- I hate to admit it... the first CD I ever purchased was "Kilroy Was Here". The Beatles stuff hadn't been released on CD yet.

By the way Sterling, your Grand Delusion book is out on Google books and I can read 106 pages of it for free...

I mean no disrespect to Todd, Styx, and definitely not you Sterling. But I find Styx's argument for not doing new things really has a few holes in it and as a fan, I take exception to some of the comments that I heard in the interview and in your post above.

One more thing- I'm ONE guy. ONE guy is not the "majority of fans".

My comments were not aimed particularly at you, but at the number of emails I get from people who listen to the show who try to convince me that their position is justified. We deal with this week after week after week after week, interviewing bands that are now basically destroyed because of being ripped off by their own fans. I rant about it all the time. Styx is hardly the only one. It's almost everyone. When it comes to the classic rock genre, it IS everyone. People like Alan Parsons or Boston who are working on new records will acknowledge up front that they hope to break even, that there is no way they will earn any money from it.

The bands you mentioned, like U2, are the exceptions, not the rule. They are in a very different marketing position than a band Like Styx, Kansas, or any of those bands.

'The Grand Delusion' is available on Google books because I chose to put it there, and I chose how much of the content was going to be available. It's a teaser and to get the rest you have to buy it, or check it out from a library that bought it. Or borrow it form someone who bought it. That's a very different thing than someone simply taking it from me. Piracy is the principal reason I have not made any of my books available in digital formats yet. The second I do, I know what will happen. Theft, theft and more theft.

Again, not directed at you personally, but come on . . . fans all universally say they don't download illegally, but the numbers simply very clearly demonstrate otherwise. I'm not talking about one guy, I'm talking about an obvious defined trend over many years. If you look at the decline of physical sales and then look at the rise of legal downloads, the gap in between is enormous. Did those people simply stop listening to music? I think not. In some cases I know some very famous performers who may have to retire early or severely limit their activities because of it. That's the fault of people stealing their livelihood, pure and simple. There is no justification that is acceptable for it. It is theft. People who engage in it are criminals.

Speaking of Metallica, back when they first complained about this I thought they were wrong, but in the years since, in light of what's happened, I have changed my mind. I wish people had gone to jail, lost their jobs, and been branded as criminals for life for illegal downloading back then. We wouldn't have this mess now if that had happened - if crime had been punished as crime and people had gotten it into their heads that it IS crime. Now it's just a big screwed up mess and we've raised an entire generation that doesn't even see why it's a problem.

As much as I would like new music from some of my favorite bands, guess what? Get used to the new normal, because this is it. Eventually even the bands that are still doing reasonably well now will start to feel it. The whole paradigm is coming apart and the next generation has almost no shot at having a decent career in music. And fans have themselves to thank, because they're the ones that finally accomplished what no record company, critic or anyone else ever could.

To paraphrase Behind the Music, "And eventually the band the critics couldn't touch . . . had to retire because it couldn't make a living anymore."


Sterling

Ash wrote:Something else I just thought of that I should mention.

I bought the Cracker album "Sunrise in the Land of Milk and Honey" and it's catapulted Cracker into one of my favorite bands of all time. BUT.. I bought the CD... sure enough on iTunes they had the same CD, but with a bonus track I could only get if I..... (wait for it)... bought the whole album.

Conversely on Amazon.com they also had "Sunrise" with a DIFFERENT bonus track than itunes. Of course I could only get that ........ IF I bought the whole album from there too.

So I'd have to buy the same album 3 times just to get 2 additional songs?

Now you tell me who is ripping off who?

Nobody's reaching into your pocket against your will and taking money out of it, are they? You have the option to buy or not buy. So don't, if you don't want to. Does that mean you should go find a torrent of those songs instead?

Again I ask, if you don't like the price of a car at the car lot, does that mean you can go steal one? Or is that theft? Hmmmm . . .

Sterling

Rockwriter wrote:
My comments were not aimed particularly at you, but at the number of emails I get from people who listen to the show who try to convince me that their position is justified. We deal with this week after week after week after week, interviewing bands that are now basically destroyed because of being ripped off by their own fans. I rant about it all the time. Styx is hardly the only one. It's almost everyone. When it comes to the classic rock genre, it IS everyone. People like Alan Parsons or Boston who are working on new records will acknowledge up front that they hope to break even, that there is no way they will earn any money from it.

Bands actually COULD record stuff in their own studios and sell it DIRECTLY through their web site EXTREMELY economically. But they'd rather not apparently. RECORD COMPANIES are just not going to do it these days. I'm not sure how much/or which record label would back Styx's tours. If no record company backs their tours, then they could do this ON THEIR SITE- FOR THEIR FANS and keep all the money. A digital download with artwork attached is not expensive.

If people are not buying your music, DON'T BLAME THE FANS. As for Boston- did you HEAR "Corporate America"? It was TERRIBLE. It's no wonder it didn't sell.

Rockwriter wrote:The bands you mentioned, like U2, are the exceptions, not the rule. They are in a very different marketing position than a band Like Styx, Kansas, or any of those bands.

I get that. But if they can make it work to that HUGE degree, Styx and bands of their ilk should be able to make it work to a fraction of that degree and still do well. They're doing great with their tours. That's excellent. But if they go out year after year doing the old stuff, eventually, that's going to turn around on them.

Rockwriter wrote:
'The Grand Delusion' is available on Google books because I chose to put it there, and I chose how much of the content was going to be available. It's a teaser and to get the rest you have to buy it, or check it out from a library that bought it. Or borrow it form someone who bought it. That's a very different thing than someone simply taking it from me. Piracy is the principal reason I have not made any of my books available in digital formats yet. The second I do, I know what will happen. Theft, theft and more theft.

By the way, should've mentioned- I BOUGHT your book and read it twice. If I loan it to someone and they read it, isn't that costing you money??

Rockwriter wrote:Again, not directed at you personally, but come on . . . fans all universally say they don't download illegally, but the numbers simply very clearly demonstrate otherwise. I'm not talking about one guy, I'm talking about an obvious defined trend over many years. If you look at the decline of physical sales and then look at the rise of legal downloads, the gap in between is enormous. Did those people simply stop listening to music? I think not. In some cases I know some very famous performers who may have to retire early or severely limit their activities because of it. That's the fault of people stealing their livelihood, pure and simple. There is no justification that is acceptable for it. It is theft. People who engage in it are criminals.

Tough to argue with that. However, if this was TRULY the case- then there would be NO recording artists. Everyone would say "nope, people will just steal it" and sit at home. There'd be no MTV. No Rap. Etc.
So then, why are there Lady Ga Ga's, and U2s, and even lesser acts like LifeHouse, and Jimmy Eat World still creating NEW albums? It makes no sense. Jimmy Eat World and Lifehouse certainly don't get played a ton on the radio, but they still make albums as MANY artists do. Could it be just that Styx and bands of their "time period" are holding out for huge contracts that won't happen? How does a band like Nickelback produce new music if downloads are killing everything? I'm not saying that Styx is in that league. But bands really need to look at what successful acts are doing.

Rockwriter wrote:
Speaking of Metallica, back when they first complained about this I thought they were wrong, but in the years since, in light of what's happened, I have changed my mind. I wish people had gone to jail, lost their jobs, and been branded as criminals for life for illegal downloading back then.

That's nuts Sterling. Gone to jail for downloading a Metalica album? Seriously? Ridiculous.
They should have their head examined, but Jail? One thing that Larrs always seems to forget- TAPE TRADING MADE that band. Metalica's not hurting for money.

Rockwriter wrote:We wouldn't have this mess now if that had happened - if crime had been punished as crime and people had gotten it into their heads that it IS crime. Now it's just a big screwed up mess and we've raised an entire generation that doesn't even see why it's a problem.

People are getting prosecuted. It hasn't helped. Just like people go to jail for murder. Has the murder rate dropped?

Rockwriter wrote:
As much as I would like new music from some of my favorite bands, guess what? Get used to the new normal, because this is it. Eventually even the bands that are still doing reasonably well now will start to feel it. The whole paradigm is coming apart and the next generation has almost no shot at having a decent career in music. And fans have themselves to thank, because they're the ones that finally accomplished what no record company, critic or anyone else ever could.

To paraphrase Behind the Music, "And eventually the band the critics couldn't touch . . . had to retire because it couldn't make a living anymore."


Sterling

And yet... SOME bands seem to make it work. I still say, THAT is where bands like Styx need to look.
Create NEW MUSIC. Sell it on your site, similar to iTunes. Make it affordable. People will still trade it, but you won't be out millions of dollars as if you'd gone into a hugely expensive studio and had a huge record company behind you.

By the way- If the new tune was offered as a payfor download on Styx's site for a few bucks, I'd have bought it. They GAVE that away.

ONE MORE THING- Sorry.

There is an artist that I LOVE. His name is Bleu. He's written songs for people like Hanson, Jonas Brothers, and other bands that are really good. He also does his own records and works with the likes of people from Jellyfish and other bands.

This guy recently did something called "Kickstarter". He had an album of new music that he wanted to produce, but he's no longer with a legit record company. So, through this thing called Kickstarter, he appealed to his fans for the funds to record the album. If the fans chipped in, they'd get a digital download of the album or other "package" deals (a cd, tshirt, etc.) depending on how much the fan donated.

In ONE DAY- the guy raised the $12,000 he needed to get the album either recorded or distributed. This was all from his fans. I'm sure I'm messing this story up. But it's a new way of doing things for independant artists. It was SUPER original. Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/135 ... ause-of-yo

CHANGE THE RULES.

brywool wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:
My comments were not aimed particularly at you, but at the number of emails I get from people who listen to the show who try to convince me that their position is justified. We deal with this week after week after week after week, interviewing bands that are now basically destroyed because of being ripped off by their own fans. I rant about it all the time. Styx is hardly the only one. It's almost everyone. When it comes to the classic rock genre, it IS everyone. People like Alan Parsons or Boston who are working on new records will acknowledge up front that they hope to break even, that there is no way they will earn any money from it.

Bands actually COULD record stuff in their own studios and sell it DIRECTLY through their web site EXTREMELY economically. But they'd rather not apparently. RECORD COMPANIES are just not going to do it these days. I'm not sure how much/or which record label would back Styx's tours. If no record company backs their tours, then they could do this ON THEIR SITE- FOR THEIR FANS and keep all the money. A digital download with artwork attached is not expensive.

If people are not buying your music, DON'T BLAME THE FANS. As for Boston- did you HEAR "Corporate America"? It was TERRIBLE. It's no wonder it didn't sell.

Rockwriter wrote:The bands you mentioned, like U2, are the exceptions, not the rule. They are in a very different marketing position than a band Like Styx, Kansas, or any of those bands.

I get that. But if they can make it work to that HUGE degree, Styx and bands of their ilk should be able to make it work to a fraction of that degree and still do well. They're doing great with their tours. That's excellent. But if they go out year after year doing the old stuff, eventually, that's going to turn around on them.

Rockwriter wrote:
'The Grand Delusion' is available on Google books because I chose to put it there, and I chose how much of the content was going to be available. It's a teaser and to get the rest you have to buy it, or check it out from a library that bought it. Or borrow it form someone who bought it. That's a very different thing than someone simply taking it from me. Piracy is the principal reason I have not made any of my books available in digital formats yet. The second I do, I know what will happen. Theft, theft and more theft.

By the way, should've mentioned- I BOUGHT your book and read it twice. If I loan it to someone and they read it, isn't that costing you money??

Rockwriter wrote:Again, not directed at you personally, but come on . . . fans all universally say they don't download illegally, but the numbers simply very clearly demonstrate otherwise. I'm not talking about one guy, I'm talking about an obvious defined trend over many years. If you look at the decline of physical sales and then look at the rise of legal downloads, the gap in between is enormous. Did those people simply stop listening to music? I think not. In some cases I know some very famous performers who may have to retire early or severely limit their activities because of it. That's the fault of people stealing their livelihood, pure and simple. There is no justification that is acceptable for it. It is theft. People who engage in it are criminals.

Tough to argue with that. However, if this was TRULY the case- then there would be NO recording artists. Everyone would say "nope, people will just steal it" and sit at home. There'd be no MTV. No Rap. Etc.
So then, why are there Lady Ga Ga's, and U2s, and even lesser acts like LifeHouse, and Jimmy Eat World still creating NEW albums? It makes no sense. Jimmy Eat World and Lifehouse certainly don't get played a ton on the radio, but they still make albums as MANY artists do. Could it be just that Styx and bands of their "time period" are holding out for huge contracts that won't happen? How does a band like Nickelback produce new music if downloads are killing everything? I'm not saying that Styx is in that league. But bands really need to look at what successful acts are doing.

Rockwriter wrote:
Speaking of Metallica, back when they first complained about this I thought they were wrong, but in the years since, in light of what's happened, I have changed my mind. I wish people had gone to jail, lost their jobs, and been branded as criminals for life for illegal downloading back then.

That's nuts Sterling. Gone to jail for downloading a Metalica album? Seriously? Ridiculous.
They should have their head examined, but Jail? One thing that Larrs always seems to forget- TAPE TRADING MADE that band. Metalica's not hurting for money.

Rockwriter wrote:We wouldn't have this mess now if that had happened - if crime had been punished as crime and people had gotten it into their heads that it IS crime. Now it's just a big screwed up mess and we've raised an entire generation that doesn't even see why it's a problem.

People are getting prosecuted. It hasn't helped. Just like people go to jail for murder. Has the murder rate dropped?

Rockwriter wrote:
As much as I would like new music from some of my favorite bands, guess what? Get used to the new normal, because this is it. Eventually even the bands that are still doing reasonably well now will start to feel it. The whole paradigm is coming apart and the next generation has almost no shot at having a decent career in music. And fans have themselves to thank, because they're the ones that finally accomplished what no record company, critic or anyone else ever could.

To paraphrase Behind the Music, "And eventually the band the critics couldn't touch . . . had to retire because it couldn't make a living anymore."


Sterling

And yet... SOME bands seem to make it work. I still say, THAT is where bands like Styx need to look.
Create NEW MUSIC. Sell it on your site, similar to iTunes. Make it affordable. People will still trade it, but you won't be out millions of dollars as if you'd gone into a hugely expensive studio and had a huge record company behind you.

By the way- If the new tune was offered as a payfor download on Styx's site for a few bucks, I'd have bought it. They GAVE that away.

ONE MORE THING- Sorry.

There is an artist that I LOVE. His name is Bleu. He's written songs for people like Hanson, Jonas Brothers, and other bands that are really good. He also does his own records and works with the likes of people from Jellyfish and other bands.

This guy recently did something called "Kickstarter". He had an album of new music that he wanted to produce, but he's no longer with a legit record company. So, through this thing called Kickstarter, he appealed to his fans for the funds to record the album. If the bands chipped in, they'd get a digital download of the album or other "package" deals (a cd, tshirt, etc.) depending on how much the fan donated.

In ONE DAY- the guy raised the $12,000 he needed to get the album either recorded or distributed. This was all from his fans. I'm sure I'm messing this story up. But it's a new way of doing things for independant artists. It was SUPER original. Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/135 ... ause-of-yo

CHANGE THE RULES.

I understand there are ways around it to a small degree, but here's what Tom Scholz had to say about it; that part of the reason it was worth his while to sacrifice years and years of his life to risk everything on the first Boston album was the notion he could make a life from it and affect the culture. THAT's part of what's missing from the downloading paradigm. Yeah, bands can sell to their fans, but they can't have any impact outside of that. That's their problem, I know, not yours, but I'm sure it's a factor, too.

It's easier for a new artist to break in with a thing like that than for an established artist to ask fans used to an old paradigm to change that thinking. If Styx asked fans to pay in advance for a new album that they would get first, I do wonder what would happen. It worked for Marillion very well, but Styx is in a different position. Maybe that would work, or maybe people would say, "Why should I pay in advance for a record I won't know if I like?" Hard to say.

Yes, I DO think people should be jailed for crime, or sentenced to time at home. If people felt they were going to be branded as criminals and have consequences, they'd be not-so-quick to press that download button. Prosecution has been sporadic and therefore ineffective.

There actually IS a potential solution buried within the complexities of this Google/Verizon net neutrality proposal. I don't know if you heard the interview we did with Randy Bachman a few weeks ago, but he said that in some countries like Japan and China they treat the Internet like a utility. The ISP keeps track of everything you download, and at the end of the month you get a bill for it based on pre-conceived market pricing. So if you went out and downloaded 40 songs from bit torrents, you'd have 40 dollars stuck on your bill. When you pay that bill, the ISPs send out the appropriate royalties to the performing rights societies, who then divvy it up as it has always been. If you don't pay the bill, your Internet gets shut off until you do, just like water, gas or any other utility. Simple.

Of course, those countries have no assumption to right of privacy or freedom of information, so they don't have the thorny issues we have in the US and Canada about how to solve this. Here we are still struggling with issues of what should be free VS. what we should HAVE to pay for, and who decides that. I am hopeful that at some point we will get a net neutrality agreement in place that can be enforced across the board, that will allow freedom of access to information, without allowing theft of a product.

Until then, we're stuck with what we've got, sadly.

Sterling

PS Thanks for buying my book. Loaning it to people is not them stealing it. It's like letting someone listen to your tape, CD or album. But if you photocopied it for them page by page, then that would be stealing, wouldn't it?

what's the difference? They'd still read it for free...

On Bleu's deal- If I remember, we got to hear the demos for the record, they just weren't mastered and finished. I've got all the guy's stuff and love it, so I'm not worried. Also, fans donated without hearing it because they trust him. Same thing'd happen here. It's not going to sell like The Grand Illusion, but it beats no new music- at least for the fan.

Granted, Styx wouldn't be selling off their site to guys like Froy or Toph, but they wouldn't buy it anyway.

What I'm suggesting is- yeah, Styx would still tour and that'd be their main income (like today maybe).
But, for those fans that want new music, for Styx's own creative outlet, they could look into this other way of doing things. Sure, it's not going to be like A&M saying "Here's a truckload of money. Now, go to the best studio and make the album of your dreams". But even with home recording (and I'm sure the guys in Styx already have great recording stuff) they could do some very cool music.

Whatever, I just know that if I had to play Blue Collar Man every night for the last 35 years, I'd go crazy. Not a slam on BCM, which I like quite a bit. More a comment on "sometimes it's nice to create".

On the download charging- that kind of makes sense actually. I really don't have a problem with that scheme other than the privacy thing.

Regarding Boston- Maybe Tom would not be so needy if it didn't take him 20 years between each album.

The other thing Styx could do to make money is to sell recordings of their shows. Pearl Jam does this. Basically, you go to a show. Sometime after the show, you go to a site, pay for it, and download the show you were at. Pretty cool if a reasonable price is charged.

brywool wrote:

Ash wrote:To further illustrate my point.

I did a google search for "Methods and Mechanics torrent" which is what you'd search to find a torrent file. The first result is this:

http://www.torrent2crazy.com/search/tod ... +mechanics

Now this site states it's been downloaded almost 10,000 times. Which is fake.... because if you click to download this file you are taken to a paywall where you need to fork over money to download it from this site. And then, the joke is - once you've paid - the file isn't there. It was a complete scam to get your money.

So take all of this with a grain of salt. If he's basing his numbers on these sites which report arbitrary download figures to scam people out of their money, then ... to quote a famous band.... he's fooling himself.

Trust me, a full torrent of Todd's dvd IS out there and can be had by someone who knows what they're doing (for free). Todd's right. The files are out there. But to equate that with 200,000 in lost sales is skewing the data.

The simple fact is that Styx is not interested in releasing a substantial amount of new material. Their main focus\interest is in touring. They will use every excuse they can to support why it does not make sense to do it. Instead of just coming out and saying it's not something the band is really interested in doing. Why? Because that would disappoint the hardcore fan base. Take Todd's comment about making an album would take them off the road and cost them money. To that I say, look at what Def Leppard did with their album "Songs from the Sparkle Lounge". They found a way to have a make shift mobile recording studio to do the bulk of the recording while they were on tour. I am not saying that some of the reasons that the band has used about the state of the music industry are not true. But, bands like Styx are releasing new music and seem to find a way to make work for them. So, I don't buy the BS.

Rockwriter wrote:
Nobody's reaching into your pocket against your will and taking money out of it, are they? You have the option to buy or not buy. So don't, if you don't want to. Does that mean you should go find a torrent of those songs instead?

Again I ask, if you don't like the price of a car at the car lot, does that mean you can go steal one? Or is that theft? Hmmmm . . .

Sterling

Not really an apples-to-apples analogy. If I buy a car at a parking lot and then two days later see the same car with Air Conditioning, I can go out and pay for the air conditioning to be put in my car. I don't have to buy a second car just to get air conditioning.

I bought the CD. Should I have to buy the same songs 3 times to get the two bonus songs I didn't have?

Good discussion. I would add that there are very valid points on both sides of the argument. Sadly, before file sharing came into existence, the record companies took advantage of the limits available to the consumer and exploited it mightily. As someone that used to be associated in the business, I can GUARANTEE this is the fact.

Remember when Greatest Hits Volume II came out? How many of us shelled out our hard earned cash for the entire CD of what we mostly already had simply because there were two new songs that were not obtainable anywhere else? I mean, if "Little Suzie" and "It Takes Love" were available separately for .99 a piece, wouldn't you have gone that route instead? See, the Record Companies KNEW that, this is why many Greatest Hits compilations back in the 90s always had an "extra song or two" so the consumer would be forced to pay for something they largely already had.

Fact: Back in the 80s-90s, whenever a new album by a new artist would appear with a "catchy" song that received airplay, many times the record companies would REFUSE to release the song as a single. The reason? They wanted to force consumers to buy the whole album and didn't want to settle for the sale of just a CD or Cassette single. There are many many other tales of greed that I saw that I could share as well. Maybe another time.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not using this as an excuse for the consumers to turn the tables on the industry and "get back at them". I just thing that whenever people are greedy (and let's face it, we're all greedy to some extent), problems like this are going to happen.

Here are some things that I've been guilty of in the past:

- I've recorded TV shows to watch at a later time. When I watched what I recorded, I fast-forwarded through the commercials. I'm not trying to be silly, but this, to some extent, is stealing. The advertisers are PAYING for the TV program and you're "finding your way around the system" so you don't have to watch the commercials.

- When I was a teenager, I had a cassette deck hooked up to my stereo and I would record songs off the radio that I really liked. Sometimes I'd buy the whole album, sometimes not. Again, one could argue this is stealing. Also, from time to time I would record an album for a friend on a blank cassette. Guilty once again.

- I don't download songs off the internet, but I DO subscribe to Rhapsody for $14.95 per month and listen to basically whatever I want whenever I want. I can use a program like Audacity and record the song and transfer to my ipod if I wish. Sure, the quality isn't as good, but it doesn't bother me that much. This is why I'll buy songs from ITunes or directly from an artist's site (Journey - Revelation) from time to time.

The whole Styx dilemma is pretty interesting. I'm willing to bet that TS and JY aren't as well off as they were many years ago. Recording a new album is expensive, and I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that they'll ever sell anymore triple platinum albums. Therefore, it's economically advantageous to tour and only release "repackaged" and/or "live" stuff. No, I don't like it either; but I understand if that is, in fact, the reason.

Anyway, in a recent interview, John Mellencamp stated that the internet "destroyed" the music industry. In summation, I believe the music industry destroyed the music industry.

Cinj

Ash wrote:Not really an apples-to-apples analogy. If I buy a car at a parking lot and then two days later see the same car with Air Conditioning, I can go out and pay for the air conditioning to be put in my car. I don't have to buy a second car just to get air conditioning.

I bought the CD. Should I have to buy the same songs 3 times to get the two bonus songs I didn't have?

This is the way it's been for years long before the days of downloading. You just joining the party?

StyxCollector wrote:

Ash wrote:Not really an apples-to-apples analogy. If I buy a car at a parking lot and then two days later see the same car with Air Conditioning, I can go out and pay for the air conditioning to be put in my car. I don't have to buy a second car just to get air conditioning.

I bought the CD. Should I have to buy the same songs 3 times to get the two bonus songs I didn't have?

This is the way it's been for years long before the days of downloading. You just joining the party?

Nope... but the pissing and moaning of artists and record labels about downloading gets old when they release:

1) five versions of the same album with different packaging
2) different track lists in different countries - each with different outrageous costs
3) A third live album in five years that has one new song on it. Essentially you get to pay $20 for one song.

People will buy if you give them options that are reasonable, affordable, and fair.

If Styx wrote 10 new songs and released them 2 at a time over the course of 5 compilations or live albums.... and would not allow the individual purchase of those tracks via a digital store .... yeah, I'd say "SCREW YOU". (Hypothetical situation only). But if they put out an album of 10 songs, not charge $30 actually not try to rip off those of us willing to pay fair prices for fair products, then it's a different stories.

I also find it interesting when artists no longer have labels to push the recording of new music, or at least some new music packaged with older stuff, they use a lot of excuses as to why they are not creating something new. Most of the time it is those "awful people" who grab their stuff for free on the internet, so why bother.

I think if Styx had the enthusiastic backing of a record label, pushing for new music for an album, as Dennis did with DEP and Rounder, they, like he, would find a way to work on something that is not just a concert souvenir.

That is my take on this, at least.


Bugsy

I'm not buying it. There have been studies suggesting that downloading has either no effect on sales, or may even boost sales a bit.

I think bands are blaming downloading for their lack of sales...but could it be that if the internet didn't exist that they would be selling even less? Guess what, it's not 1980 anymore. Radio has become so fragmented and formatted that it's difficult for these bands to get the word out. Radio won't play their new music, so how does anyone even know if they have new material? The few people who follow their websites or these message boards will find out about it...but not the general public.

These bands need to accept the fact that they are not going to be able to sell anywhere near as many units as they did in their heydays. Does this mean that they should no longer be creative...NO! Like Brywool said, sell the albums at the shows. I would think that this would be their target audience...and they tour enough to get the product in front of A LOT of people.

I think it's too easy to blame the internet and illegal downloading (which I oppose - hey, I'm a musician too - and it IS stealing) for not recording new material. I think it has way more to do with their (possibly justified) fears that they will never come close to their most creatively, critically, and/or commercially successful output. They may have decided that if they can't sell 500,000 copies, then what's the point. To me, the point is to stay creative and vital. Some bands have decided to continue writing and recording new material - even if it doesn't sell a million copies. And they've found that they still have what Jack Black calls "Rocket Sauce" - check out the most recent studio CDs by Cheap Trick, Toto, and Rick Springfield - I consider them to be among the best of their careers.

Just my $.02.

Dexter

David Lowery of Cracker has some interesting insight from a Band's perspective on the music business and how bands make money from record labels:

http://300songs.com/2010/08/19/33-13-it ... f-cracker/

This post details their running feud with Virgin Records and the various dealings they had with them.

Of all the people in the downloading pyramid scheme - the bands are likely those hurt the least. At least if what Mr. Lowery asserts in that band's should never see royalties - they should be basically getting their money up-front. Afterall, if the label is seeting 75-88% of the proceeds from every album sold anyway - then they're the ones getting ripped off 75-88% to the band's 12-25%.

My bet - Styx isn't willing to create new music because it isn't economically realistic for them to do so. And JY is all about the money (as he honestly should be since the music business is just that - a business). There isn't a label lining up to pay them to produce an album. Now - they *could* produce it themselves and sell it on a smaller label - taking less money and working to promote it. There are ways they could make a record profitable, albeit on a smaller scale, in the new economy.

Until album rock comes back in vogue, bands like Styx will be relegated to a smaller stature and nostalgia - needing to work together with the other big names of their times (of which Styx was one of the biggest at one point) to try and draw people to see them. It's just natural.

But back on point - if they can release al album of re-hashes and sell it at a show - there is no way they can't record an album of new material in the same way and sell that at shows too. Shaw has had his own studio rig for many, many years (as has DeYoung). I'd be just as critical of DeYoung if he were to re-record a bunch of Styx songs and sell them at his shows. To me, it really sounds like they are lazy, frustrated, and just not feeling creative. Fine with me. But that is their choice. Don't use lame excuses and shift focus off that by trying to blame the straw man (downloaders) for you not being creative.

You want to read a blog by someone who is bitter at royalties and the record industry? Check out Robert Fripp (from King Crimson) - http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?member=3. You'll have to look back a ways, but he's been fighting this stuff for years.

bugsymalone wrote:I think if Styx had the enthusiastic backing of a record label, pushing for new music for an album, as Dennis did with DEP and Rounder, they, like he, would find a way to work on something that is not just a concert souvenir.

That is my take on this, at least.


Bugsy

You will never see a label going after this version of Styx to release and promote a new album. What is interesting is that the Canadian record label that released OYFN came to Dennis and asked him to record an album. Dennis didn't write the material and then shop it to the labels. When did a label go looking for the current Styx?

StyxCollector wrote:You want to read a blog by someone who is bitter at royalties and the record industry? Check out Robert Fripp (from King Crimson) - http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?member=3. You'll have to look back a ways, but he's been fighting this stuff for years.

LOL, Fripp is the KING of the angry musicians, and the guy just won't quit. Bill Bruford wrote in his autobiography that all he has to do to collect old King Crimson monies still owing is to wait for Fripp to sue the shit out of everyone, then wade in at the last minute and send a letter with the words "Robert Fripp" in it to the appropriate person, and they turn around and crank out a check. Funny stuff. You know, most guys learn to let it go to some extent, but Fripp is not one of them, to put it mildly.

Sterling

Rockwriter wrote:LOL, Fripp is the KING of the angry musicians, and the guy just won't quit. Bill Bruford wrote in his autobiography that all he has to do to collect old King Crimson monies still owing is to wait for Fripp to sue the shit out of everyone, then wade in at the last minute and send a letter with the words "Robert Fripp" in it to the appropriate person, and they turn around and crank out a check. Funny stuff. You know, most guys learn to let it go to some extent, but Fripp is not one of them, to put it mildly.

I loved Bill's autobiography - read it awhile back. You can tell that was done by him, not a ghost writer.

Ironically enough, I'm in the studio recording the KC song "Red" at the moment.

Note for Styx-

I went out today and PURCHASED the new CDs (didn't download, didn't steal, but paid for) the new HEART and GOO GOO DOLLS CDs.
CDs- the hard plastic things with the album artwork, etc.
Wish there was a Styx CD that wasn't some kind of reissue. I woulda bought that too.

Rockwriter wrote:Here is the link to the archived show of Todd's appearance on Long Live Rock http://www.wewillrockyoublog.com/2010/0 ... live-rock/

This turned out very well, I thought. Thanks once again to Todd, who was not feeling well and did this anyway for us. We talked about the upcoming tour, 'Regeneration,' his DVD, the state of the music business and more.

Sterling

Just listened to this interview, It's nice to hear a fill in drummer talk about Money for 30 min Yea Gowan play's his dick off but he sings like there's one up is shooter. Play the show and get paid That say's it all. Todd would rather play for 8000 drunks that 15 thousand Real Fans that says it all as well.
It may be time for Todd to move on to greener pastures as this field is dried up

froy wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:Here is the link to the archived show of Todd's appearance on Long Live Rock http://www.wewillrockyoublog.com/2010/0 ... live-rock/

This turned out very well, I thought. Thanks once again to Todd, who was not feeling well and did this anyway for us. We talked about the upcoming tour, 'Regeneration,' his DVD, the state of the music business and more.

Sterling

Just listened to this interview, It's nice to hear a fill in drummer talk about Money for 30 min Yea Gowan play's his dick off but he sings like there's one up is shooter. Play the show and get paid That say's it all. Todd would rather play for 8000 drunks that 15 thousand Real Fans that says it all as well.
It may be time for Todd to move on to greener pastures as this field is dried up

I think froy is just a little pissed off ,that they are actually doing as well as they are without daddy dinky.
Way to go lads.
You proved you were right to get rid of him.

I think froy is just a little pissed off ,that they are actually doing as well as they are

Really tells us just how great they are doing name all the accomplishments.