NO WIN

[yogi]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them). These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

[StyxCollector]

Well, exactly. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

They can't NOT play CSA. Now, I can see why they don't play songs like "The Best of Times". I still think Tommy could sing it, and it'd be a great addition to the set.

In 10 years the argument has stalled in the same effin' place.

[brywool]

I think people have to realize that Dennis and Styx are two DIFFERENT entities now.
Regarding the rerecordings, my beef is more with the bad recording choices.
If they want to try and recreate magic on their dime, that's their business
but it'd be nice if they'd record the stuff better.

[froy]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.

And rightly so because they are. If you wanna play Dennis songs in STYX let Dennis play them.

( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them).

Then your deaf and have a fetish for goats.

These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

No Yogi there not ripping them for not playing his songs they are ripping them for letting a goat sing them.

[gr8dane]

And no matter how hard froy is defending Dennis and ridiculing everything else,Dennis still out and Styx carries on,with somebody else.

I don't think one single person has changed his or her mind after listening to him for 10 years making a total twat out of himself.

[Ash]

Well, exactly. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

They can't NOT play CSA. Now, I can see why they don't play songs like "The Best of Times". I still think Tommy could sing it, and it'd be a great addition to the set.

In 10 years the argument has stalled in the same effin' place.

All true... but Alan, you can't say they haven't discussed it. I'm sure that JY would have no problem dropping CSA and every other DDY penned song from the set list if it were merely a "personal" versus "profession" decision. As for me? I hope and wish they would. It would force them to stand on their own and fully disown the history they disdain. I think what the double standard you are seeing is the same for the fans that it is for Styx. Styx doesn't really want to play Dennis' songs. The problem is they know they can't do that and have long-term viability. The *only* reason JY hasn't done it is because it would be a critical BUSINESS error. The Styx business is nothing without Dennis DeYoung. Say what you will about Babe, Roboto, First Time... whatever - the facts are that the Styx business begins and ends with Dennis' music. Nothing against Tommy for Blue Collar Man, Renegade or Too Much Time..... but those songs do not define Styx the way that Come Sail Away, Babe, Roboto and The Best of Times have. And it's that legacy that they have been trying to disavow for the last 11 years.

So just as much as the fans seem to want it both ways.... Styx does too. And the result is what we have. It's that balance of ditching what they can get away with in the name of maintaining profitability and any resemblance of relevance.

[yogi]

Damn Ash thats good stuff!!!!

[froy]

And no matter how hard froy is defending Dennis and ridiculing everything else,Dennis still out and Styx carries on,with somebody else.

I don't think one single person has changed his or her mind after listening to him for 10 years making a total twat out of himself.

Your right nobody has changed there minds only you and 2 others like the current situation and all the rest are done with STYX

[bugsymalone]

Damn Ash thats good stuff!!!!

Agree. Well-stated, Ash. I think the dichotomy in feelings from SOME of the fans is that many (ok, include me) have a problem with HOW the DDY songs are sung. Badly, in the opinion of several, perhaps more than several.

The other problem doesn't really have so much to do with singing/not singing the DDY songs (which they MUST do, as Ash stated). It is with the wiping from the record the history of what went into making much of the music they perform.

They are quite content to use DDY's contributions to the band, they just don't have any interest in crediting him. Period.

I actually think Tommy Shaw still sounds great and don't mind a bit hearing him sing with this Styx lineup. And I very much understand Gowan's assuming his part in this band, when it was offered to him, because it is a HUGE money-maker for him and rescued his fading music career. I just have a problem with his really awful voice and his stage presence, but that really comes down to an individual's personal taste and what they like to hear/see on stage.


Bugsy

[gr8dane]

And no matter how hard froy is defending Dennis and ridiculing everything else,Dennis still out and Styx carries on,with somebody else.

I don't think one single person has changed his or her mind after listening to him for 10 years making a total twat out of himself.

Your right nobody has changed there minds only you and 2 others like the current situation and all the rest are done with STYX

You misunderstood.
Do YOU think that YOU with YOUR posts and ehh opinions,has been able to convert somebody here,from having their point of view changed to something else, because of YOU?.
I really would like to know who?

[StyxCollector]

All true... but Alan, you can't say they haven't discussed it.

We don't know. We can speculate, but none of us have been behind closed doors with the band. My sources are usually pretty good, but not that good. We do know that Glen tried to get them to play Roboto, and that's why you got a snippet of it for a bit.

I'm sure that JY would have no problem dropping CSA and every other DDY penned song from the set list if it were merely a "personal" versus "profession" decision.

I actually agree with you here. I think if he could have, they would have. Although early on the did try MORE DDY tunes; I think they whittled it down to:
a) What they really need (GI, Lady, CSA)
b) What they can pull off (well documented, but their versions of TBOT and such were not good sans Dennis)

I honestly think Tommy doesn't care. He would do Babe again I believe if he felt it was in his best interest to do so. Again, this is my opinion - not fact.

The Styx business is nothing without Dennis DeYoung. Say what you will about Babe, Roboto, First Time... whatever - the facts are that the Styx business begins and ends with Dennis' music. Nothing against Tommy for Blue Collar Man, Renegade or Too Much Time..... but those songs do not define Styx the way that Come Sail Away, Babe, Roboto and The Best of Times have. And it's that legacy that they have been trying to disavow for the last 11 years.

Well, fortunately or unfortunately they've survived for 10+ years without playing a lot of the DDY tunes, so I'd say the Styx business is doing fine whether some fans like it or not; take emotion out of it. Now, had you said the foundation for where Styx is at today is was built on the tunes they all helped to get to fruition (including Dennis, who did have a large hand in things - I'd agree. They may not cater to it, but they would not be where they are today without Dennis' contributions (in addition to their own).

[froy]

And no matter how hard froy is defending Dennis and ridiculing everything else,Dennis still out and Styx carries on,with somebody else.

I don't think one single person has changed his or her mind after listening to him for 10 years making a total twat out of himself.

Your right nobody has changed there minds only you and 2 others like the current situation and all the rest are done with STYX

You misunderstood.
Do YOU think that YOU with YOUR posts and ehh opinions,has been able to convert somebody here,from having their point of view changed to something else, because of YOU?.
I really would like to know who?

The band draws 1500 without a triple bill correct? With Dennis in 96 they were @ 10k and up on a double bill with Kansas.
I think that answers that question. You base a band success on the fact they are doing concerts? How foolish.
My posts are not meant to persuade anyone. They are my opinions take em or take em

[gr8dane]

And no matter how hard froy is defending Dennis and ridiculing everything else,Dennis still out and Styx carries on,with somebody else.

I don't think one single person has changed his or her mind after listening to him for 10 years making a total twat out of himself.

Your right nobody has changed there minds only you and 2 others like the current situation and all the rest are done with STYX

You misunderstood.
Do YOU think that YOU with YOUR posts and ehh opinions,has been able to convert somebody here,from having their point of view changed to something else, because of YOU?.
I really would like to know who?

The band draws 1500 without a triple bill correct? With Dennis in 96 they were @ 10k and up on a double bill with Kansas.
I think that answers that question. You base a band success on the fact they are doing concerts? How foolish.
My posts are not meant to persuade anyone. They are my opinions take em or take em

Awwrite Sparky.
The first 2 lines had nothing to do with my question.
But I'm off to the cottage so I have to get back to you later about the rest,

Have a splendid weekend all.Cheerio.

[Ash]

Well, fortunately or unfortunately they've survived for 10+ years without playing a lot of the DDY tunes, so I'd say the Styx business is doing fine whether some fans like it or not; take emotion out of it. Now, had you said the foundation for where Styx is at today is was built on the tunes they all helped to get to fruition (including Dennis, who did have a large hand in things - I'd agree. They may not cater to it, but they would not be where they are today without Dennis' contributions (in addition to their own).

But they wouldn't have had they completely done away with Dennis and ALL his music. If they ditched Come Sail Away - it would leave a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouths and I'm willing to say that many wouldn't come back. It's one of their hallmark songs. One of several. They've managed to get away with doing away with many of Styx memorable songs and I think fans have forgiven Styx for not playing Mr. Roboto given that despite it's popularity in culture, is something of a guilty pleasure.

And yeah, I'm speculating. But understanding JY as little as I do... it really wouldn't shock me to learn that Tommy or the others in the band had to convince JY to keep CSA.

[brywool]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

[yogi]

Damn another well put good one.

You all are trying your best to push me aside as the resident expert here!

[froy]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

It's funny STYX is the only band ever to walk away from there signature guy after 2 great tours back to back and a 6 month rest time.
They waited for Perry for 2 years and they could not give Dennis 6 months
That's BS if ya ask me.

[StyxCollector]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I don't think so. There were already divisions in 1996 - as the story I've heard goes, they wanted to tour longer in '96, Dennis did not. Dennis did not want to do 1997, but they did it for someone in the band (we still don't know for sure who). Things were fine (relatively speaking) at least through when TS did his Seven Deadly Borders tour and Dennis came to the Chicago one. Things seem to go off the tracks after that. BNW was supposedly in development if you follow along the timeline for that.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

You're mixing things up quite a bit here. Dalmatians has nothing to do with Dennis and his exit from Styx - that happened a full 10 years later. Dennis had committed to doing Hunchback I think *before* they had even committed or talked about to a '97 Styx tour. You don't do that thinking a major tour is going to come down in the middle of that.

1997 was a rough year for Dennis beyond the work stuff - Dad dying, etc. That'll beat the piss out of anyone. I know some don't believe he was sick and it's not something I'm going to argue at all here. When Susie Young (who I hope is doing well) got sick and JY left the tour for a few dates, you didn't see them fire JY.

Honestly, I do believe if they had taken off 1997, started fresh in '98 with BNW, you may have extended the shelf life of the band with Dennis, but ultimately the touring thing would have been an issue at some point.

As I've said numerous times, we've heard both sides. None of us on this board were there or in on the conversations. All we can do is speculate.

[brywool]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

It's funny STYX is the only band ever to walk away from there signature guy after 2 great tours back to back and a 6 month rest time.
They waited for Perry for 2 years and they could not give Dennis 6 months
That's BS if ya ask me.

They waited for Dennis for a long time prior to that. They also waited for Shaw a long time prior to that.
Perry... he couldn't do the gig at that point.

[brywool]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I don't think so. There were already divisions in 1996 - as the story I've heard goes, they wanted to tour longer in '96, Dennis did not. Dennis did not want to do 1997, but they did it for someone in the band (we still don't know for sure who). Things were fine (relatively speaking) at least through when TS did his Seven Deadly Borders tour and Dennis came to the Chicago one. Things seem to go off the tracks after that. BNW was supposedly in development if you follow along the timeline for that.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

You're mixing things up quite a bit here. Dalmatians has nothing to do with Dennis and his exit from Styx - that happened a full 10 years later. Dennis had committed to doing Hunchback I think *before* they had even committed or talked about to a '97 Styx tour. You don't do that thinking a major tour is going to come down in the middle of that.

1997 was a rough year for Dennis beyond the work stuff - Dad dying, etc. That'll beat the piss out of anyone. I know some don't believe he was sick and it's not something I'm going to argue at all here. When Susie Young (who I hope is doing well) got sick and JY left the tour for a few dates, you didn't see them fire JY.

Honestly, I do believe if they had taken off 1997, started fresh in '98 with BNW, you may have extended the shelf life of the band with Dennis, but ultimately the touring thing would have been an issue at some point.

As I've said numerous times, we've heard both sides. None of us on this board were there or in on the conversations. All we can do is speculate.

Yer right, I did mix the dalmations thing in there. ugh, sorry about that. With all the hoopla EVERY DAY here about Dennis and Styx, it's like he left yesterday. The touring thing... Dennis always hated touring. That's a known fact. So that would've been an issue and probably was at the time that the ultimatum came up. Regarding JY's deal, his was a bit more desperate than some kind of "light sensitivity" issue that at the time wasn't really verified, was it? Seemed like that didn't come out until the die had been cast. Jy's quote about "how were we supposed to figure out what was wrong" kind of illustrates that nobody could seem to figure it out and I have a hunch that "the doctor" was a bit of a hypochondriac at times. That's been stated before by someone. So maybe the band thought it was that kind of situation. Again, we weren't there.

Speaking of "already divisions in 1996" watch "Fooling Yourself" from the RTP DVD (it's on youtube too). At the beginning, watch the look Dennis shoots towards Tommy. Yikes!

[froy]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.



They waited for Dennis for a long time prior to that.

Really when I don't remember that

[froy]

"brywool

I don't think so. There were already divisions in 1996 - as the story I've heard goes, they wanted to tour longer in '96,

Well there was not much left in 96 as the tour ended at the end of September that year.

Dennis did not want to do 1997, but they did it for someone in the band (we still don't know for sure who).

I don't think they should have done 97 either as it was just 96 all over again with 3 new songs.
they should have been in the studio in 97 the entire year working on the new cd and in 98 they should have gone out and did a 2 year tour to support that cd to the max,

[froy]

"brywool"

Speaking of "already divisions in 1996" watch "Fooling Yourself" from the RTP DVD (it's on youtube too). At the beginning, watch the look Dennis shoots towards Tommy. Yikes!

Oh come on your a musician that's no look that him hitting the keys with an expression on his face.

[Babyblue]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them). These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

Like your post Yogi

Froy is the goat all right.

[froy]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them). These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

Like your post Yogi

Froy is the goat all right.

where have ya been Bluebaby

[Babyblue]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them). These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

Like your post Yogi

Froy is the goat all right.

where have ya been Bluebaby

I have been at work Now its time to play.

[froy]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them). These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

Like your post Yogi

Froy is the goat all right.

where have ya been Bluebaby

I have been at work Now its time to play.

Your right

Go away Wilma

[Babyblue]

One of the funniest things that I read here ( besides me the resident expert) is that if current Styx plays DDY songs they are ripped by some for butchering these songs.( Personally I like the way Gowan sings most of them). These same people then rip the current rendition of Styx for not playing DDY songs by saying that current Styx is trying to erase Dennis from the history of the band by not playing his songs.

Like your post Yogi

Froy is the goat all right.

where have ya been Bluebaby

I have been at work Now its time to play.

Your right

Go away Wilma

Fred it'as time to take Dino for a walk

[Mr JY Roboto]

And no matter how hard froy is defending Dennis and ridiculing everything else,Dennis still out and Styx carries on,with somebody else.

I don't think one single person has changed his or her mind after listening to him for 10 years making a total twat out of himself.

Your right nobody has changed there minds only you and 2 others like the current situation and all the rest are done with STYX

You misunderstood.
Do YOU think that YOU with YOUR posts and ehh opinions,has been able to convert somebody here,from having their point of view changed to something else, because of YOU?.
I really would like to know who?

The band draws 1500 without a triple bill correct? With Dennis in 96 they were @ 10k and up on a double bill with Kansas.
I think that answers that question. You base a band success on the fact they are doing concerts? How foolish.
My posts are not meant to persuade anyone. They are my opinions take em or take em

It was a reunion tour, of course at the time they were going to draw well. In '97, numbers were down with DDY. Adding DDY to Styx in 2010 does not add 10,000 plus every night. For current Styx to even draw 1500 a night in 2010 after playing so many shows is quite amazing to me. Admit it.

[Boomchild]

I think people have to realize that Dennis and Styx are two DIFFERENT entities now.
Regarding the rerecordings, my beef is more with the bad recording choices.
If they want to try and recreate magic on their dime, that's their business
but it'd be nice if they'd record the stuff better.

Basically, this is the kind of quality you get from ProTools and the like. Screams "home Studio". Not to mention that they fired the producer that was responsible for a lot of their best recording.