What if Tommy Shaw never joined Styx.

[Boomchild]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

[Baron Von Bielski]

There is no way. Tommy and Dennis needed to counterbalance each other... plus even though the writing credits don't show, a lot of the songs were more or less co-written.

[cittadeeno23]

No, Styx needed Tommy. Equinox was a great album, but GI and P08 were better.
Styx needed Tommy, Dennis and JY. Tommy added so much to the mix. Anyone who doesn't think so is just plain wrong.

I don't like the direction the band is going in now, but that has nothing to do with what Styx really was and will always be.

Dennis, Tommy, JY, Chuck and John. Styx. Period.

[froy]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

Sure they would be better The guy destroyed the band, Its now Fake STYX before he joined it was STYX

[Baron Von Bielski]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

Sure they would be better The guy destroyed the band, Its now Fake STYX before he joined it was STYX

But see, you're thinking in terms of now... not then.

[Boomchild]

No, Styx needed Tommy. Equinox was a great album, but GI and P08 were better.
Styx needed Tommy, Dennis and JY. Tommy added so much to the mix. Anyone who doesn't think so is just plain wrong.

I don't like the direction the band is going in now, but that has nothing to do with what Styx really was and will always be.

Dennis, Tommy, JY, Chuck and John. Styx. Period.

I would say I have the same opinion here.

[Boomchild]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

Sure they would be better The guy destroyed the band, Its now Fake STYX before he joined it was STYX

So you are saying that Styx would have achieved the same level of success without Tommy Shaw? That his contributions had no effect on their success? As far as Tommy being the one that destroyed the band, I am not so sure that it started with him. Iit took all three of the remaining members to vote Dennis out. Not one person could do it. With everything that has come out about the break up and by the actions of those involved, I tend to lean more towards JY as being the one that started the ball rolling on the ousting of Dennis. It seems to me that he harbors some hostility towards Dennis that I don't see in the other members.

[Baron Von Bielski]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

[froy]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

[froy]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

Sure they would be better The guy destroyed the band, Its now Fake STYX before he joined it was STYX

So you are saying that Styx would have achieved the same level of success without Tommy Shaw? That his contributions had no effect on their success? As far as Tommy being the one that destroyed the band, I am not so sure that it started with him. Iit took all three of the remaining members to vote Dennis out. Not one person could do it. With everything that has come out about the break up and by the actions of those involved, I tend to lean more towards JY as being the one that started the ball rolling on the ousting of Dennis. It seems to me that he harbors some hostility towards Dennis that I don't see in the other members.

No way would the band have ousted Dennis if JY and Chuck were the ones to make the decision, Shaw was the broke drug addict that lead the way.

[Boomchild]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

Sure they would be better The guy destroyed the band, Its now Fake STYX before he joined it was STYX

So you are saying that Styx would have achieved the same level of success without Tommy Shaw? That his contributions had no effect on their success? As far as Tommy being the one that destroyed the band, I am not so sure that it started with him. Iit took all three of the remaining members to vote Dennis out. Not one person could do it. With everything that has come out about the break up and by the actions of those involved, I tend to lean more towards JY as being the one that started the ball rolling on the ousting of Dennis. It seems to me that he harbors some hostility towards Dennis that I don't see in the other members.

No way would the band have ousted Dennis if JY and Chuck were the ones to make the decision, Shaw was the broke drug addict that lead the way.

Of course you have details that are facts to back this statement up right? What makes you so sure Tommy was the one who pushed for it? After all. since the break up I have not heard one single bad comment about Dennis come from Tommy himself.

[Baron Von Bielski]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

You seem to completely absolve JY of any wrong doing. Plus, TS managed to clean his life up. What ruined the band was the decision to move on without DDY and for not ever inviting him back. I have been open about Burnik being a member I'd like to see back, but with Tommy, JY and Dennis.

[Boomchild]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

It seems to me that the three of them (TS, DDY, JY) had this special chemistry (Musically) that would not have been achieved with anyone else. Glen certainly is a talented musician and songwriter but, you can't be serious to say that Styx was better when Glen joined the band. EOTC was a good album however it doesn't seem to hold a candle to the past works with Tommy. Even Glen has said he didn't feel all that comfortable being in Styx. Glen's comments led me to believe that he was more interested in the money then the band itself. With regards to the break up in '84, sure Tommy's actions had something to do with the fall out. But, you can't single him out from the pack. I'm sure Dennis pushing a project that other's seemed to be either against or not interested in doing caused a problem. Even Dennis admits his pushing KWH on the band was a mistake. Dennis seems to be the type of person that is not going to admit to a mistake he's made unless he totally believes it himself. Finally, evidently Dennis felt that Tommy had something special to offer Styx or he would have agreed with the rest of the band to continue on without Tommy in '84. What is sad is that Tommy did not feel the same when Dennis asked for some time in '99 to get better to be able to do a tour.

[Boomchild]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

You seem to completely absolve JY of any wrong doing. Plus, TS managed to clean his life up. What ruined the band was the decision to move on without DDY and for not ever inviting him back. I have been open about Burnik being a member I'd like to see back, but with Tommy, JY and Dennis.

IMHO, Styx really ended in '84. Sure the reunion during '95 to '97 offered a glimmer of hope on a rebirth. However, the wounds between these guys seem way too deep to ever really heal.

[Baron Von Bielski]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

You seem to completely absolve JY of any wrong doing. Plus, TS managed to clean his life up. What ruined the band was the decision to move on without DDY and for not ever inviting him back. I have been open about Burnik being a member I'd like to see back, but with Tommy, JY and Dennis.

IMHO, Styx really ended in '84. Sure the reunion during '95 to '97 offered a glimmer of hope on a rebirth. However, the wounds between these guys seem way too deep to ever really heal.

I still think it can happen. It's like family, wounds can run really deep... and you can not speak for years. But family is family. I can see something happening.

[froy]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

It seems to me that the three of them (TS, DDY, JY) had this special chemistry (Musically) that would not have been achieved with anyone else. Glen certainly is a talented musician and songwriter but, you can't be serious to say that Styx was better when Glen joined the band. EOTC was a good album however it doesn't seem to hold a candle to the past works with Tommy. Even Glen has said he didn't feel all that comfortable being in Styx. Glen's comments led me to believe that he was more interested in the money then the band itself. With regards to the break up in '84, sure Tommy's actions had something to do with the fall out. But, you can't single him out from the pack. I'm sure Dennis pushing a project that other's seemed to be either against or not interested in doing caused a problem. Even Dennis admits his pushing KWH on the band was a mistake. Dennis seems to be the type of person that is not going to admit to a mistake he's made unless he totally believes it himself. Finally, evidently Dennis felt that Tommy had something special to offer Styx or he would have agreed with the rest of the band to continue on without Tommy in '84. What is sad is that Tommy did not feel the same when Dennis asked for some time in '99 to get better to be able to do a tour.

Take a look at that EOTC cd, Glens songs were fantastic 4 solid tunes on that cd, Not since Crystal ball has Shaw done that if even .

[froy]

"Boomchild

IMHO, Styx really ended in '84. Sure the reunion during '95 to '97 offered a glimmer of hope on a rebirth. However, the wounds between these guys seem way too deep to ever really heal.

I agree and it was Tommy sniffing his way to a solo career, Sure Roboto was over everyones head but if they would have kept at it Desert Moon would have been the next hit, Shaw and his spite have killed STYX JY is no angel either but Shaw was the enabler.

[ChicagoSTYX]

Since in another thread it was asked if Styx would have been better if Tommy Shaw had not joined Styx, I thought I would post a poll to see what people thought about it.

Sure they would be better The guy destroyed the band, Its now Fake STYX before he joined it was STYX

Yes and JC had a hell of a voice! Look at all he did after he left Styx!!

[Baron Von Bielski]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

It seems to me that the three of them (TS, DDY, JY) had this special chemistry (Musically) that would not have been achieved with anyone else. Glen certainly is a talented musician and songwriter but, you can't be serious to say that Styx was better when Glen joined the band. EOTC was a good album however it doesn't seem to hold a candle to the past works with Tommy. Even Glen has said he didn't feel all that comfortable being in Styx. Glen's comments led me to believe that he was more interested in the money then the band itself. With regards to the break up in '84, sure Tommy's actions had something to do with the fall out. But, you can't single him out from the pack. I'm sure Dennis pushing a project that other's seemed to be either against or not interested in doing caused a problem. Even Dennis admits his pushing KWH on the band was a mistake. Dennis seems to be the type of person that is not going to admit to a mistake he's made unless he totally believes it himself. Finally, evidently Dennis felt that Tommy had something special to offer Styx or he would have agreed with the rest of the band to continue on without Tommy in '84. What is sad is that Tommy did not feel the same when Dennis asked for some time in '99 to get better to be able to do a tour.

Take a look at that EOTC cd, Glens songs were fantastic 4 solid tunes on that cd, Not since Crystal ball has Shaw done that if even .

Fantastic? No. Good? Yes. His writing skills are impressive, but Styx shouldn't completely be aiming to be a top 40 band full of radio friendly hits. DDY can write that stuff in his sleep. They need to push the envelope a little and not follow a formulaic style of writing. I love One with Everything and also Crossing the Rubicon. Written by two different members or ex-members, but that's Styx... that's the sound. If they had each others influence on them then they'd really be beyond great. DDY should write a couple of ballads..... he does it so well, but that counter balance with Tommy and JY is what made Styx Styx. There is no substitiute. Neither side will achieve dick without the other. So fucking stupid. But Styx would have just been the band with one hit... Lady without Tommy and Tommy wouldn't have been anything without Styx.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Take a look at that EOTC cd, Glens songs were fantastic 4 solid tunes on that cd, Not since Crystal ball has Shaw done that if even .

Fantastic? No. Good? Yes.

One of my absolute favorite Styx songs is "All In A Days WorK"

[Boomchild]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

It seems to me that the three of them (TS, DDY, JY) had this special chemistry (Musically) that would not have been achieved with anyone else. Glen certainly is a talented musician and songwriter but, you can't be serious to say that Styx was better when Glen joined the band. EOTC was a good album however it doesn't seem to hold a candle to the past works with Tommy. Even Glen has said he didn't feel all that comfortable being in Styx. Glen's comments led me to believe that he was more interested in the money then the band itself. With regards to the break up in '84, sure Tommy's actions had something to do with the fall out. But, you can't single him out from the pack. I'm sure Dennis pushing a project that other's seemed to be either against or not interested in doing caused a problem. Even Dennis admits his pushing KWH on the band was a mistake. Dennis seems to be the type of person that is not going to admit to a mistake he's made unless he totally believes it himself. Finally, evidently Dennis felt that Tommy had something special to offer Styx or he would have agreed with the rest of the band to continue on without Tommy in '84. What is sad is that Tommy did not feel the same when Dennis asked for some time in '99 to get better to be able to do a tour.

Take a look at that EOTC cd, Glens songs were fantastic 4 solid tunes on that cd, Not since Crystal ball has Shaw done that if even .

Sorry, but I do not share you opinion with regards to Glen's contributions compared to Tommy's. That's not to say that Glen's songs were bad. As I said EOTC was a good effort but not what I would consider totally Styx. I would also say that Tommy's contributions got better after CB. Are you trying to say that Glen's contributions are better then Fooling Yourself, Man in the Wilderness, Boat on the River, Love in the Midnight for example?

[Boomchild]

"Boomchild

IMHO, Styx really ended in '84. Sure the reunion during '95 to '97 offered a glimmer of hope on a rebirth. However, the wounds between these guys seem way too deep to ever really heal.

I agree and it was Tommy sniffing his way to a solo career, Sure Roboto was over everyones head but if they would have kept at it Desert Moon would have been the next hit, Shaw and his spite have killed STYX JY is no angel either but Shaw was the enabler.

I'm sure Tommy's drug abuse altered his perception of things at the time. But, he is not the only reason things fell apart. They all had a hand in it. I would compare it to what happens in a dis-functional family. Surely you do not believe that Dennis was completely innocent in the events that led to the break-up in '84. By saying that KWH was "over everyone's head", are you disagreeing with Dennis' viewpoint that it was a mistake to push it on the band? I liked KWH for the most part but when you look at everything surrounding KWH you can see the rest of the band really was not into doing the project. So in my opinion, it was doomed from the start and Dennis should have seen that at the beginning. It just wasn't the right time for it. Also, it seems that since the others were not thrilled about the project Dennis had to water it down so to speak to get it to something that the band would accept. So that may be why you feel it was "over everyone's head".

[Boomchild]

How could anyone think they would have been better off??? Nevermind today's status of things, but are you guys out of your fucking minds??? Now I want DDY back in the band as much as anybody, but I also know that Styx wouldn't have been a multi-platinum seller without Tommy.

Who is to say someone better than Shaw would have come in Say Burtnick? He is a better song writer and all around better guy
Shaw has about 7 good songs and that's it, His garbage with the drugs and bad decisions killed the band period,
They broke up after Kilroy because of him , That alone killed them

It seems to me that the three of them (TS, DDY, JY) had this special chemistry (Musically) that would not have been achieved with anyone else. Glen certainly is a talented musician and songwriter but, you can't be serious to say that Styx was better when Glen joined the band. EOTC was a good album however it doesn't seem to hold a candle to the past works with Tommy. Even Glen has said he didn't feel all that comfortable being in Styx. Glen's comments led me to believe that he was more interested in the money then the band itself. With regards to the break up in '84, sure Tommy's actions had something to do with the fall out. But, you can't single him out from the pack. I'm sure Dennis pushing a project that other's seemed to be either against or not interested in doing caused a problem. Even Dennis admits his pushing KWH on the band was a mistake. Dennis seems to be the type of person that is not going to admit to a mistake he's made unless he totally believes it himself. Finally, evidently Dennis felt that Tommy had something special to offer Styx or he would have agreed with the rest of the band to continue on without Tommy in '84. What is sad is that Tommy did not feel the same when Dennis asked for some time in '99 to get better to be able to do a tour.

Take a look at that EOTC cd, Glens songs were fantastic 4 solid tunes on that cd, Not since Crystal ball has Shaw done that if even .

Fantastic? No. Good? Yes. His writing skills are impressive, but Styx shouldn't completely be aiming to be a top 40 band full of radio friendly hits. DDY can write that stuff in his sleep. They need to push the envelope a little and not follow a formulaic style of writing. I love One with Everything and also Crossing the Rubicon. Written by two different members or ex-members, but that's Styx... that's the sound. If they had each others influence on them then they'd really be beyond great. DDY should write a couple of ballads..... he does it so well, but that counter balance with Tommy and JY is what made Styx Styx. There is no substitiute. Neither side will achieve dick without the other. So fucking stupid. But Styx would have just been the band with one hit... Lady without Tommy and Tommy wouldn't have been anything without Styx.

Very well put. It seems to me the influences on each other and the counter balance was the chemistry I was talking about. Now that is totally gone from the band. In a sense they have left the "magic smoke" out of the box.

[S2M]

The better question would have been if Styx could have survived without JY, and I think his contributions are limited anyway.

[Boomchild]

The better question would have been if Styx could have survived without JY, and I think his contributions are limited anyway.

That's a fair point. IMHO, JY was\is the weakest link of the three. One could argue that someone else could have replaced JY and the band still would have been just as successful. He was the weaker of the three when it comes to song writing. I think TS and DDY had to help JY out to make his contributions better then what he came up with by himself. On the flip side, one could say that JY is the key to the Styx trademark harmonies and therefore is just as irreplaceable as TS and DDY. When you take a listen to some of the tracks off Dennis OYFN I am not so sure. Dennis had produced some harmonies on that album that were very close to what Styx harmonies were.

[Baron Von Bielski]

The better question would have been if Styx could have survived without JY, and I think his contributions are limited anyway.

That's a fair point. IMHO, JY was\is the weakest link of the three. One could argue that someone else could have replaced JY and the band still would have been just as successful. He was the weaker of the three when it comes to song writing. I think TS and DDY had to help JY out to make his contributions better then what he came up with by himself. On the flip side, one could say that JY is the key to the Styx trademark harmonies and therefore is just as irreplaceable as TS and DDY. When you take a listen to some of the tracks off Dennis OYFN I am not so sure. Dennis had produced some harmonies on that album that were very close to what Styx harmonies were.

I think JY's contributions were more prevalent on the first four if not five albums... basically before Tommy Shaw. He was #1 in the beginning, then #2 and when TS came he fell to #3. I really enjoy his earlier work with the band and I believe Styx wouldn't have gotten as far without him... in the beginning. Styx wouldn't have been a powerhouse without either DDY or Tommy. Nowadays, I believe it's JY that won't let Dennis back in and I think Tommy goes along with it because he gives him the leadership role and gives him the freedom to do as he wishes. That's how I see it.

[Toph]

Interesting poll. And an interesting analysis. Tommy certainly brought much to the table to enhance Styx, but also made a few crucial mistakes along the way that damaged the band.

Things that Tommy brought
- Broadened the Styx sound - In my mind the most important thing Tommy brought to the table was his acoustic, southern style to the band. Songs like Crystal Ball, Foolin Yourself, Sing For The Day, Lights, and Boat On The River represent Tommy's strengths as a writer and took Styx to a place that they never would have got to. A mistake on Styx's part was not to leverage this as much on Paradise and Kilroy.

- Pop/Rock sensibilities and fantastic songwriting - Tommy could write a better rock song than anyone in the band. He knew how to write a rock song that actually got played on the radio - Renegade, BCM are examples and the more poppish TMTOMH certainly is proof that Styx could write an up tempo song that could get played on the radio.

- Made Dennis better - Tommy added to DDY's songwriting. The competition between them even if friendly - was definitely there. Dennis was so bummed out that Tommy had written and sung all the hit singles of Po* that he rededicated himself to making himself a better writer and singer - writing about what he wanted to write about vs. trying to fit the AOR mold

Tactical errors of Tommy

- The ongoing threats to "walk" if he didn't get his way - Really spoke to his immaturity more than anything. If First Time is a single, I quit....If HWBHB is a single, I quit....this not only caused friction, but actually hurt the band sales wise.

- Poor input on singles - Like it or not, First Time was headed to be a Top 5 single (maybe even a number 1). If Tommy hated it so much, they should have had this out before the song made it on the record. If it is on the record, it is fair game to be a single. Dennis explains this in an interview that if First Time gets released, it goes big, the album sky rockets opening up the doors to release Boat On The River (they would have known it was a hit in Europe) and get more push behind Borrowed Time and Lights. Cornerstone had the potential to be a 5 single album. This would have set the stage for 1981 PT which, with that setup, could have been a much bigger album than it was - think Escape or Hi Infidelity. Same story with Haven't We Been Here Before. Song should have been released - would have been top 5.

- The drug issues - Clearly Tommy's drug abuse probably was the cause of the above two tactical errors - but when you get right down to it, it destroyed the band for 13 years. That is the biggest shame of all.

So, net net does Tommy help or hurt? Well, if Tommy doesn't join, I do not think the band ever gets out of the Equinox era - maybe have a few gold records and a few more top 40 singles, but not top 10 singles and not platinum albums. The band disbands by 1980. So, even with the tactical errors, net net Styx comes out way ahead with Tommy in the band.

[Toph]

The better question would have been if Styx could have survived without JY, and I think his contributions are limited anyway.

I would argue that they would have been MORE not less successful had JY not been in the band.

[Boomchild]

Interesting poll. And an interesting analysis. Tommy certainly brought much to the table to enhance Styx, but also made a few crucial mistakes along the way that damaged the band.

Things that Tommy brought
- Broadened the Styx sound - In my mind the most important thing Tommy brought to the table was his acoustic, southern style to the band. Songs like Crystal Ball, Foolin Yourself, Sing For The Day, Lights, and Boat On The River represent Tommy's strengths as a writer and took Styx to a place that they never would have got to. A mistake on Styx's part was not to leverage this as much on Paradise and Kilroy.

- Pop/Rock sensibilities and fantastic songwriting - Tommy could write a better rock song than anyone in the band. He knew how to write a rock song that actually got played on the radio - Renegade, BCM are examples and the more poppish TMTOMH certainly is proof that Styx could write an up tempo song that could get played on the radio.

- Made Dennis better - Tommy added to DDY's songwriting. The competition between them even if friendly - was definitely there. Dennis was so bummed out that Tommy had written and sung all the hit singles of Po* that he rededicated himself to making himself a better writer and singer - writing about what he wanted to write about vs. trying to fit the AOR mold

Tactical errors of Tommy

- The ongoing threats to "walk" if he didn't get his way - Really spoke to his immaturity more than anything. If First Time is a single, I quit....If HWBHB is a single, I quit....this not only caused friction, but actually hurt the band sales wise.

- Poor input on singles - Like it or not, First Time was headed to be a Top 5 single (maybe even a number 1). If Tommy hated it so much, they should have had this out before the song made it on the record. If it is on the record, it is fair game to be a single. Dennis explains this in an interview that if First Time gets released, it goes big, the album sky rockets opening up the doors to release Boat On The River (they would have known it was a hit in Europe) and get more push behind Borrowed Time and Lights. Cornerstone had the potential to be a 5 single album. This would have set the stage for 1981 PT which, with that setup, could have been a much bigger album than it was - think Escape or Hi Infidelity. Same story with Haven't We Been Here Before. Song should have been released - would have been top 5.

- The drug issues - Clearly Tommy's drug abuse probably was the cause of the above two tactical errors - but when you get right down to it, it destroyed the band for 13 years. That is the biggest shame of all.

So, net net does Tommy help or hurt? Well, if Tommy doesn't join, I do not think the band ever gets out of the Equinox era - maybe have a few gold records and a few more top 40 singles, but not top 10 singles and not platinum albums. The band disbands by 1980. So, even with the tactical errors, net net Styx comes out way ahead with Tommy in the band.

The other mistake he made was to think that a solo career would be as successful as being in Styx. He really fell for the pitch from whomever was whispering in his ear. I think he gave up on the band after Dennis came back in '79.

[Boomchild]

The better question would have been if Styx could have survived without JY, and I think his contributions are limited anyway.

That's a fair point. IMHO, JY was\is the weakest link of the three. One could argue that someone else could have replaced JY and the band still would have been just as successful. He was the weaker of the three when it comes to song writing. I think TS and DDY had to help JY out to make his contributions better then what he came up with by himself. On the flip side, one could say that JY is the key to the Styx trademark harmonies and therefore is just as irreplaceable as TS and DDY. When you take a listen to some of the tracks off Dennis OYFN I am not so sure. Dennis had produced some harmonies on that album that were very close to what Styx harmonies were.

I think JY's contributions were more prevalent on the first four if not five albums... basically before Tommy Shaw. He was #1 in the beginning, then #2 and when TS came he fell to #3. I really enjoy his earlier work with the band and I believe Styx wouldn't have gotten as far without him... in the beginning. Styx wouldn't have been a powerhouse without either DDY or Tommy. Nowadays, I believe it's JY that won't let Dennis back in and I think Tommy goes along with it because he gives him the leadership role and gives him the freedom to do as he wishes. That's how I see it.

I would have to say that I enjoyed his contributions during the WN years up to the first A&M album. As far as Dennis being asked to return to Styx, JY will never, ever let this occur. Out of all of them he seems to hold the most disgust and chip on his shoulder towards Dennis. The only way I could ever see this happening is if Dennis was the only option left for the band to continue. Which by now is a moot point among their audience which is mainly the casual fan. The casual fan could care lees about whether the members of a band are the originals or not. That to me is the one and only reason they have been able to continue without Dennis.