Wish Rhino would do this for Styx

[Toph]

All Foreigner Atlantic Era records remastered

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Atlantic ... B00LW2K9AQ


Can Rhino buy the Styx A&M releases? Would love a remaster of Equinox - Edge. ThoSe of you who say "there's not enough money in it..." I point your attention to the fact that at least 3 Styx contemporaries - Journey, REO, and now Foreigner have remastered CDs out. Why not Styx?

[masque]

i too would love to see this happen. but i want the whole deal, complete with lyrics and notes and pics.

[ztyxlynne]

Maybe it hasn't happened because it would take Dennis, JY,Tommy,Chuck to sit down and discuss these albums and come to some sort of agreement on pics etc? Just saying.

[Toph]

Well for years he argument by some was that it was cost prohibitive to do this for Styx. That is either a bullshit argument or Styx is not in the same league as Foreigner and REO (I realize that they are a few notches underneath Journey).

[Cassie May]

I don't know how these things work, but don't they need the original masters in order to remaster them? Aren't the originals missing? Furthermore, does Rhino have to show initiative and get the ball rolling, or are they approached by groups/labels? Finally, since Tommy and JY own the Styx name, would DDY even have any say in it? Just curious.

[ztyxlynne]

I think maybe Styx is up there or maybe a notch below Journey. Definitely way past REO and Foreigner. I definitely think they should do a remaster of there albums. By the way I thought DDY still owned the Styx name but he just can't call himself Styx. You guys may have to school me on that,thanks.

[Cassie May]

No one knows all the details of the lawsuit filed by DDY and its outcome, but TS and JY earned the rights to the Styx name and DDY earned the right to be DDY.

[Boomchild]

It's my understanding that since the labels own the masters they can do pretty much do what they want. It has been said that at one time, Styx had written into their contract that they would have some say in releases. However, I'm thinking that the duration of those contracts has run out. As far as the masters being lost, I seem to remember hearing TS make mention of masters or master being lost when asked some question about their catalog. I don't think that is correct. Both GI and PT have been re-released as remasters. Maybe the reason we haven't seen this done is due to industry and\or label bias. Of course, it could just be that there is not enough people that would actually buy them. After all, the CD market is dying out and the way people choose to get their music has changed. Also, the way people listen to music has changed. People tend to listen to music in the background while doing something else instead of taking the time to sit down and just listen. For background listening a remastered version doesn't matter. I'm sure Rhino could arrange an agreement with Universal who now owns the masters. That is if Rhino would want to do it. Since they haven't already I doubt they are.

[masque]

Well for years he argument by some was that it was cost prohibitive to do this for Styx. That is either a bullshit argument or Styx is not in the same league as Foreigner and REO (I realize that they are a few notches underneath Journey).

toph, unlike releasing original music on their own or with a small label, re-releasing re-mastered albums from their past would not be cost prohibitive......for the band because they would have no dog in the fight so to speak.

these kinds of projects usually come 100% from the record label looking to make some money on re-releasing a catalog they own that sold well and they think because of it's track record it will sell moderately well again to styx crazed fans like us.

band members may get involved in the re-mastering process but they are rarely, if ever, the catalyst for the project happening.

I dont think that tommy & jy have control over the old masters or the publishing on the old masters......because if they did then there would have been no reason to re-record the old songs for the regeneration releases.

that was 100% the reason journey redid their old songs with arnel was to gain control of how they could use those songs.....they had no control over the originals, so by redoing them then they had control over the new masters.

same with the original version of "lady".....styx couldnt get it released to them for the 1st greatest hits album so they recut so that they could include the new version on the greatest hits album.

same thing for the bit of roboto that appeared in the tv commerical......ddy had to re-record what appeared in the commercial for it to appear.

while i certainly think styx has a large enough fanbase to have warranted this project it should have taken place several years ago when some folks were still buying cd's.....the iron was hotter then and it would have certainly done better years ago than it will now......so whoever owns the masters and publishing of the original tunes must be feeling like the financial math on this project isnt lucrative enough to pull the trigger on it. makes sense......the only band I currently see doing the remastering thing right now is led zeppelin and let's face it.......they are in their own league to say the least.

[FormerDJMike]

Grand Illusion, Pieces Of Eight & Cornerstone have already been remastered and reissued but on vinyl only. It was done by Friday Music. I believe Friday is part of Rhino, I'll have to look at my LP and read the liner notes. From what I understand it is up to the record companies.

Now, with that being said, I know for a FACT that Universal Music was going to remaster and reissue The Grand Illusion around 2003 as a double disc set. They did several of those around that time (I have Joe Jackson, Meat Loaf, The Who and several others). They came in a digi-pack with a plastic clear sleeve over them. Disc one was supposed to be a remaster and disc 2 was going to be a live show from that era. They even had a scheduled release date for it. Then is disappeared. The word given to me at the time was the band "nixed" it. So I believe they did have some say at least at that time. Who knows, they may have had to approve the Friday Music vinyl editions.

Here is my vinyl version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YfkPOAagXs

[masque]

im really not sure why a re-master for a vinyl release woudl be necessary or an improvement. the 180 gram is usually virgin stock vinyl and not recycled which leads to less impurities in the plastic used to make the record.....less impurities= less noise in the record.

so from that aspect it would nice.


however, the typical remastering job done these days is done to take the albums done in the days of vinyl and transport them over to the medium of digital WHILE taking into account the now much larger amount of bass that can be included.

as many of you know, vinyl records could not include heavy amounts of bass in the recordings because it would literally cause the needle to skip and jump around on the record.

in addition, new masters must take into account the "loudness" wars that exist with cd releases these days.

so most new remastering jobs will ultimately sound different to us because the cd will be much louder and will contain more bass......that doesnt mean better.....but studies have shown that we associate louder with better as listeners.

those original styx albums around the time of GI sound nearly flawless and dont really need much of anything. folks sometimes dont realize that when you remaster you arent remixing.....you are taking the finished product and polishing the end result with a different or newer cloth.....or a cloth that matches up better with today's listening standards.

[Toph]

No one knows all the details of the lawsuit filed by DDY and its outcome, but TS and JY earned the rights to the Styx name and DDY earned the right to be DDY.

Uh, no that's not the case. He earned the right to be DDY and the music of Styx or formerly of Styx. Plus, he gets a piece every time they go out there as Styx and royalties on every album sold.

[Toph]

It's my understanding that since the labels own the masters they can do pretty much do what they want. It has been said that at one time, Styx had written into their contract that they would have some say in releases. However, I'm thinking that the duration of those contracts has run out. As far as the masters being lost, I seem to remember hearing TS make mention of masters or master being lost when asked some question about their catalog. I don't think that is correct. Both GI and PT have been re-released as remasters. Maybe the reason we haven't seen this done is due to industry and\or label bias. Of course, it could just be that there is not enough people that would actually buy them. After all, the CD market is dying out and the way people choose to get their music has changed. Also, the way people listen to music has changed. People tend to listen to music in the background while doing something else instead of taking the time to sit down and just listen. For background listening a remastered version doesn't matter. I'm sure Rhino could arrange an agreement with Universal who now owns the masters. That is if Rhino would want to do it. Since they haven't already I doubt they are.

Again, if it is done for Foreigner or REO, this argument doesn't hold water - unless that is, there is no confidence in Styx selling like Foreigner and REO. Either Styx can sell a similar amount as Foreigner and REO or they can't and a record company won't make that investment in a losing proposition or something else is prohibiting this from being done.

[Toph]

Well for years he argument by some was that it was cost prohibitive to do this for Styx. That is either a bullshit argument or Styx is not in the same league as Foreigner and REO (I realize that they are a few notches underneath Journey).

toph, unlike releasing original music on their own or with a small label, re-releasing re-mastered albums from their past would not be cost prohibitive......for the band because they would have no dog in the fight so to speak.

these kinds of projects usually come 100% from the record label looking to make some money on re-releasing a catalog they own that sold well and they think because of it's track record it will sell moderately well again to styx crazed fans like us.

band members may get involved in the re-mastering process but they are rarely, if ever, the catalyst for the project happening.

I dont think that tommy & jy have control over the old masters or the publishing on the old masters......because if they did then there would have been no reason to re-record the old songs for the regeneration releases.

that was 100% the reason journey redid their old songs with arnel was to gain control of how they could use those songs.....they had no control over the originals, so by redoing them then they had control over the new masters.

same with the original version of "lady".....styx couldnt get it released to them for the 1st greatest hits album so they recut so that they could include the new version on the greatest hits album.

same thing for the bit of roboto that appeared in the tv commerical......ddy had to re-record what appeared in the commercial for it to appear.

while i certainly think styx has a large enough fanbase to have warranted this project it should have taken place several years ago when some folks were still buying cd's.....the iron was hotter then and it would have certainly done better years ago than it will now......so whoever owns the masters and publishing of the original tunes must be feeling like the financial math on this project isnt lucrative enough to pull the trigger on it. makes sense......the only band I currently see doing the remastering thing right now is led zeppelin and let's face it.......they are in their own league to say the least.

I realize that re-mastering is significantly less expensive. But the argument goes back to - if someone feels that Foreigner and REO are worth it enough to have invested in it, either someone believes Styx cannot hold its own against those bands and it won't pay out, or there is something else prohibiting the remastering and re=releasing of these albums.

[masque]

Well for years he argument by some was that it was cost prohibitive to do this for Styx. That is either a bullshit argument or Styx is not in the same league as Foreigner and REO (I realize that they are a few notches underneath Journey).

toph, unlike releasing original music on their own or with a small label, re-releasing re-mastered albums from their past would not be cost prohibitive......for the band because they would have no dog in the fight so to speak.

these kinds of projects usually come 100% from the record label looking to make some money on re-releasing a catalog they own that sold well and they think because of it's track record it will sell moderately well again to styx crazed fans like us.

band members may get involved in the re-mastering process but they are rarely, if ever, the catalyst for the project happening.

I dont think that tommy & jy have control over the old masters or the publishing on the old masters......because if they did then there would have been no reason to re-record the old songs for the regeneration releases.

that was 100% the reason journey redid their old songs with arnel was to gain control of how they could use those songs.....they had no control over the originals, so by redoing them then they had control over the new masters.

same with the original version of "lady".....styx couldnt get it released to them for the 1st greatest hits album so they recut so that they could include the new version on the greatest hits album.

same thing for the bit of roboto that appeared in the tv commerical......ddy had to re-record what appeared in the commercial for it to appear.

while i certainly think styx has a large enough fanbase to have warranted this project it should have taken place several years ago when some folks were still buying cd's.....the iron was hotter then and it would have certainly done better years ago than it will now......so whoever owns the masters and publishing of the original tunes must be feeling like the financial math on this project isnt lucrative enough to pull the trigger on it. makes sense......the only band I currently see doing the remastering thing right now is led zeppelin and let's face it.......they are in their own league to say the least.

I realize that re-mastering is significantly less expensive. But the argument goes back to - if someone feels that Foreigner and REO are worth it enough to have invested in it, either someone believes Styx cannot hold its own against those bands and it won't pay out, or there is something else prohibiting the remastering and re=releasing of these albums.

i agree 100%......but in the case of re-mastering nearly 100% of the costs whatever they may be will paid by the record company or whoever holds the rights/publishing. i agree with you that someone along the line must have thought that it wasnt worth the investment to do.......sometimes it takes a "fan" of the band holding a position of influence within a record company to get something like this done......maybe by the time it was good to do it styx didnt really have any allies within the company?

or maybe somebody realized that when it comes time to do these kinds of things, if you do them right, you at least want input and participation from the artist regarding expanded artwork, recording info, liner notes, packaging etc......and in the case of styx maybe the headache of dealing with their individual lawyers was a turn off.

i know anytime there is a pink floyd related release based on past work it takes a great deal of time for roger and david's attorneys to work out the details....in fact, i know that when they did the greatest hits disc several years ago they each submitted what they thought should be on there.....the ones that matched made it......and then they each got to pick whichever songs THEY wanted on an alternating basis until the disc was full......lol

it aint easy getting all these pricks from these bands to agree on anything much less the attorneys and record companies.

[FormerDJMike]

im really not sure why a re-master for a vinyl release woudl be necessary or an improvement. the 180 gram is usually virgin stock vinyl and not recycled which leads to less impurities in the plastic used to make the record.....less impurities= less noise in the record.

so from that aspect it would nice.


however, the typical remastering job done these days is done to take the albums done in the days of vinyl and transport them over to the medium of digital WHILE taking into account the now much larger amount of bass that can be included.

as many of you know, vinyl records could not include heavy amounts of bass in the recordings because it would literally cause the needle to skip and jump around on the record.

in addition, new masters must take into account the "loudness" wars that exist with cd releases these days.

so most new remastering jobs will ultimately sound different to us because the cd will be much louder and will contain more bass......that doesnt mean better.....but studies have shown that we associate louder with better as listeners.

those original styx albums around the time of GI sound nearly flawless and dont really need much of anything. folks sometimes dont realize that when you remaster you arent remixing.....you are taking the finished product and polishing the end result with a different or newer cloth.....or a cloth that matches up better with today's listening standards.

It sounds pretty good. I know I am pleased with the outcome. You can judge for yourself, I made a video of the actual vinyl audio here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYzahBO_sE8

I burned it to CD then compared it to the A&M CD released in the late 80's. The vinyl version sounds much better, even on CD.

[Cassie May]

No one knows all the details of the lawsuit filed by DDY and its outcome, but TS and JY earned the rights to the Styx name and DDY earned the right to be DDY.

Uh, no that's not the case. He earned the right to be DDY and the music of Styx or formerly of Styx. Plus, he gets a piece every time they go out there as Styx and royalties on every album sold.

Uh well, whatever. *rolls eyes* What the hell does it matter to anyone except those who are actually--or formerly--in Styx?

[Monker]

Well for years he argument by some was that it was cost prohibitive to do this for Styx. That is either a bullshit argument or Styx is not in the same league as Foreigner and REO (I realize that they are a few notches underneath Journey).

toph, unlike releasing original music on their own or with a small label, re-releasing re-mastered albums from their past would not be cost prohibitive......for the band because they would have no dog in the fight so to speak.

these kinds of projects usually come 100% from the record label looking to make some money on re-releasing a catalog they own that sold well and they think because of it's track record it will sell moderately well again to styx crazed fans like us.

band members may get involved in the re-mastering process but they are rarely, if ever, the catalyst for the project happening.

I dont think that tommy & jy have control over the old masters or the publishing on the old masters......because if they did then there would have been no reason to re-record the old songs for the regeneration releases.

that was 100% the reason journey redid their old songs with arnel was to gain control of how they could use those songs.....they had no control over the originals, so by redoing them then they had control over the new masters.

same with the original version of "lady".....styx couldnt get it released to them for the 1st greatest hits album so they recut so that they could include the new version on the greatest hits album.

same thing for the bit of roboto that appeared in the tv commerical......ddy had to re-record what appeared in the commercial for it to appear.

while i certainly think styx has a large enough fanbase to have warranted this project it should have taken place several years ago when some folks were still buying cd's.....the iron was hotter then and it would have certainly done better years ago than it will now......so whoever owns the masters and publishing of the original tunes must be feeling like the financial math on this project isnt lucrative enough to pull the trigger on it. makes sense......the only band I currently see doing the remastering thing right now is led zeppelin and let's face it.......they are in their own league to say the least.

I realize that re-mastering is significantly less expensive. But the argument goes back to - if someone feels that Foreigner and REO are worth it enough to have invested in it, either someone believes Styx cannot hold its own against those bands and it won't pay out, or there is something else prohibiting the remastering and re=releasing of these albums.

Come on. Universal doesn't want to do a remaster - for WHATEVER reason. They also do not want to let someone else do it - for WHATEVER reason.

Who cares what the "WHATEVER" is. You don't know, I don't know...only Universal does.

[Boomchild]

I dont think that tommy & jy have control over the old masters or the publishing on the old masters......because if they did then there would have been no reason to re-record the old songs for the regeneration releases.

When they were promoting the Regeneration releases I believe it was JY that said the reason they were doing it was they wanted to record those songs with the current version of the band. In a sense he made it seem as if the fans were asking for it. I also think it was done to gain control over the rights to those songs when it comes to those looking to use the songs in marketing.

[Boomchild]

Again, if it is done for Foreigner or REO, this argument doesn't hold water - unless that is, there is no confidence in Styx selling like Foreigner and REO. Either Styx can sell a similar amount as Foreigner and REO or they can't and a record company won't make that investment in a losing proposition or something else is prohibiting this from being done.

It's not an argument it's an opinion only. Since none of us are clued into the reason we haven't seen this done. Personally, I think that it's due to the company that owns the masters doesn't feel remastered versions would sell enough to make it worth while. I would say that it is questionable. At least in terms of the U.S. market.

[Boomchild]

so most new remastering jobs will ultimately sound different to us because the cd will be much louder and will contain more bass......that doesnt mean better.....but studies have shown that we associate louder with better as listeners.

This does depend on who is doing the remaster. They aren't always louder or contain more bass. The eq that is set for a vinyl master is different for CD master. When A&M released Styx' catalog on CD they just seemed to dump them over to digital without any tweaking. Hence the lack luster sound to some of them. Re-mastering when done correctly can produce the sound that the artist wanted. Without boosting the loudness to a point that it ruins the point of remastering it for CD in the first place.

[Toph]

Again, if it is done for Foreigner or REO, this argument doesn't hold water - unless that is, there is no confidence in Styx selling like Foreigner and REO. Either Styx can sell a similar amount as Foreigner and REO or they can't and a record company won't make that investment in a losing proposition or something else is prohibiting this from being done.

It's not an argument it's an opinion only. Since none of us are clued into the reason we haven't seen this done. Personally, I think that it's due to the company that owns the masters doesn't feel remastered versions would sell enough to make it worth while. I would say that it is questionable. At least in terms of the U.S. market.

Then what you are saying is that Styx is a notch below REO and Foreigner because their record companies made the investment.

[masque]

Again, if it is done for Foreigner or REO, this argument doesn't hold water - unless that is, there is no confidence in Styx selling like Foreigner and REO. Either Styx can sell a similar amount as Foreigner and REO or they can't and a record company won't make that investment in a losing proposition or something else is prohibiting this from being done.

It's not an argument it's an opinion only. Since none of us are clued into the reason we haven't seen this done. Personally, I think that it's due to the company that owns the masters doesn't feel remastered versions would sell enough to make it worth while. I would say that it is questionable. At least in terms of the U.S. market.

Then what you are saying is that Styx is a notch below REO and Foreigner because their record companies made the investment.

uhhhh, i think what's being said is that whoever owns the masters "must think" that it's not worth the investment.

[blt man]

If you were A&M/Universal and Gelderdisk (not clear if this entity is owned by all Styx members or only Deyoung) was suing you for unpaid royalties, would you be in a rush to release remastgered Styx albums?

[Boomchild]

If you were A&M/Universal and Gelderdisk (not clear if this entity is owned by all Styx members or only Deyoung) was suing you for unpaid royalties, would you be in a rush to release remastgered Styx albums?

That's a very good point. Something I know that I forgot about. I'm sure that would not have a positive impact on this subject.

[Boomchild]

Then what you are saying is that Styx is a notch below REO and Foreigner because their record companies made the investment.

uhhhh, i think what's being said is that whoever owns the masters "must think" that it's not worth the investment.

Exactly. I or we are not thinking that Styx as band is a notch below those bands mentioned.

[StyxCollector]

Rhino reissuing Styx makes zero sense. Rhino was/is Warner's reissue arm, not Uni's. They could license tracks for compilations or whatever, but to reissue their catalog? There's a bigger chance of the ebola virus wiping us all out.

The fact is, and has been posted numerous times, Styx was supposed to get remasters in the mid-90s. The GH release from 1995 was the first, but after the 2-track CD single released shortly thereafter, it never happened. The Styx catalog has been dormant until the past few years outside of the aborted GI reissue 10 years ago with a few vinyl reissues, the Japanese A&M era SHMs (both sets, with Cornerstone in the first, not in the second, and neither Cornerstone or Paradise Theater remastered at all in those), the Paradise Theater SHM remaster, the Audio Fidelity discs (the terrible Grand Illusion and only slightly better Paradise Theater, ironically also a SACD, but hybrid).

If Universal in the US wanted to put out anything outside of compilations, they would have. Remastering costs them very little since they own the masters. The fact they are just licensing these out says it all. Japan is the only place Universal has shown interest in reissuing the Styx catalog at all, and everything there is limited edition.

The days of physical product are waning. The time to do this would have been between 1995 and 1997/8. The fact we've even got two SACDs for Styx is amazing in 2014, and whether you like the mastering job by Audio Fidelity (I don't), at least *someone* is tackling these. I'm just happy I got a decent sounding CITA as well as PT (the Japanese SACD is about as good as it will sound in digital).

I don't think the Gelderdisk lawsuit has anything to with Uni sitting on the Styx catalog. They make money either way, it's a matter of what the guys would be owed.

[StyxCollector]

I dont think that tommy & jy have control over the old masters or the publishing on the old masters......because if they did then there would have been no reason to re-record the old songs for the regeneration releases.

When they were promoting the Regeneration releases I believe it was JY that said the reason they were doing it was they wanted to record those songs with the current version of the band. In a sense he made it seem as if the fans were asking for it. I also think it was done to gain control over the rights to those songs when it comes to those looking to use the songs in marketing.

There's a difference between controlling which sound recording is used (i.e. going to Styx to get the Regeneration version of a song vs. going to Uni and getting the "classic" Styx version of the song) and publishing. In that dog and pony show, Styx would rather get the money directly for the sound recording. That's where something like Regeneration comes into play. This has nothing to do with publishing royalties, which still get paid regardless of which sound recording is used. For example, whether it's Gowan or DDY singing CSA on a recording, DDY gets paid publishing.

[StyxCollector]

Come on. Universal doesn't want to do a remaster - for WHATEVER reason.

Nor have they since the mid-90s

They also do not want to let someone else do it - for WHATEVER reason.

Who cares what the "WHATEVER" is. You don't know, I don't know...only Universal does.

This is untrue, though. With the licensing of Cornerstone, Po8, and GI to Friday Music on vinyl, GI and PT to Audio Fidelity for digital, they are OK with licensing stuff out. But the fact remains they have zero interest in doing it themselves outside of Japan which is a different market to begin with.

The Styx masters are in good shape (as confirmed in my interview with Bob Ludwig a few years back). So that isn't the issue, that's for sure!

If Styx owned their masters, they could do them and then let Uni put them out (much like Peter Gabriel owns his catalog and licenses them to a label to release). Since they don't, they have no control over what Uni does to a large degree unless a contract says otherwise. I'm sure they have input if asked, but do you think Uni cares much these days about Styx outside of licensing their stuff out?

[Toph]

I don't know the answer to this, so I'll ask. Does remastering affect the sound of mp3/digital files? In other words, if Paradise Theatre was remastered and then put out on iTunes. Does it sound any different than the original Paradise Theatre digital files?