MR

If you've been keeping up on Facebook, Dennis is asking why Styx doesn't have a YouTube song with 10 million plus views while other artists of their ilk do. He's asking for feedback from Facebook fans.

I went to YouTube to see what he was referencing and sure enough he's right. Here are the biggest Styx videos in YouTube views:
- Roboto (official video) 5MM
- Lady (RTP) 4.8MM
- CSA (official) 4.7 MM
- Boat on River (official) 4.1MM
- TMTOMH (official) 2.4MM
- Mr. Roboto (another official) 1.3MM
- Babe (official) 1.3MM
- SMTW (official) 1.1 MM

So, what is your thought?

Usually when I go to YouTube looking for Styx videos I am looking for rare bootleg footage I have never seen like the old Winterland shows. I have the most of the official videos on DVD but from time to time will watch Ritual, other than that I already have them and would rather see this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrHZrXNj9tY

I think it could be that other acts like Styx have had a longer lasting interest by their fan bases. Even though at the height of their popularity were not as big as Styx was. Then factor in that Styx imploded right at the peak of their popularity while other acts like them continued to have a presence on the music scene. Also, I can't remember the last time I saw a Styx video when watching VH1 classic.

Well... I don't need YouTube to watch the Styx official videos clips or official concert shows. I have all them on DVD.

Toph wrote:If you've been keeping up on Facebook, Dennis is asking why Styx doesn't have a YouTube song with 10 million plus views while other artists of their ilk do. He's asking for feedback from Facebook fans.

I went to YouTube to see what he was referencing and sure enough he's right. Here are the biggest Styx videos in YouTube views:
- Roboto (official video) 5MM
- Lady (RTP) 4.8MM
- CSA (official) 4.7 MM
- Boat on River (official) 4.1MM
- TMTOMH (official) 2.4MM
- Mr. Roboto (another official) 1.3MM
- Babe (official) 1.3MM
- SMTW (official) 1.1 MM

So, what is your thought?

It's got to be because the label refused to allow Dennis to write and produce all of the videos. If he could have had complete control, all of these would be huge hits.

i think a good chunk of this comes because they essentially quit making videos around 83........while bands like journey, foreigner and reo all had huge hits and videos that went along with those hits later in the decade.....at a time when more people had mtv and were exposed to those videos.

many folks forget that in the first few years of mtv there were tons of people throughout the nation that did not have mtv. so by the time nearly everyone did styx was no longer making videos while those other bands still were and had hits with those videos.

and lastly, styx's videos were very low production videos that looked cheesy and in no way are "memorable" at all. the most memorable video they ever did was mr. roboto and if you go watch it now it is very low quality outside of the roboto mask. plus the band was virtually non-existent in the video.

Monker wrote:It's got to be because the label refused to allow Dennis to write and produce all of the videos. If he could have had complete control, all of these would be huge hits.

Well if you go by what his former band mates and others (including yourself) have said over and over again, Dennis must of had complete control over everything including the videos. So are you now saying he wasn't a dictator with control over everything?

Boomchild wrote:

Monker wrote:It's got to be because the label refused to allow Dennis to write and produce all of the videos. If he could have had complete control, all of these would be huge hits.

Well if you go by what his former band mates and others (including yourself) have said over and over again, Dennis must of had complete control over everything including the videos. So are you now saying he wasn't a dictator with control over everything?

I have never, ever, said or implied that Dennis had any control over the videos. I'm sure he had control over "Mr. Roboto", obviously. And, "Music Time"...I'll give him that one, too. Other then that, I think it's pretty obvious they handed the videos off to others to control.

And, BTW, it's Dennis himself who said he produced everything prior to BNW, that he was the one responsible for the "Styx sound", that if only ______ would have listen to him then _______ would have been a hit, too. He himself is admitting his obsession with dictating what Styx should have done and continued to critique decisions years after he was no longer in the band.

You can't rewrite history. You can't predict all of the variables that would happen if a change in history happened. That is called writing an alternate history, and it's FICTION. A wise and humble person KNOWS that. A foolish person with a huge ego doesn't and believes his way was the only"right' way and if only they would have listened more success would have happened.

Monker wrote:I have never, ever, said or implied that Dennis had any control over the videos. I'm sure he had control over "Mr. Roboto", obviously. And, "Music Time"...I'll give him that one, too. Other then that, I think it's pretty obvious they handed the videos off to others to control.

You and others including his former band mates have said Dennis had and wanted control over EVERYTHING Styx did, like a dictator. Seems to me when you present it in that way it would include the videos as well. Now you want to split hairs. What the hell, throw the responsibility for the videos on DDY. It makes TS and JY look better and helps boost their image as helpless victims unable to stand up for what they wanted all those years.

Monker wrote:You can't rewrite history. You can't predict all of the variables that would happen if a change in history happened. That is called writing an alternate history, and it's FICTION. A wise and humble person KNOWS that. A foolish person with a huge ego doesn't and believes his way was the only"right' way and if only they would have listened more success would have happened.

Speaking of rewriting history, Seems like his former band mates could use similar advice.

Monker wrote:

Toph wrote:If you've been keeping up on Facebook, Dennis is asking why Styx doesn't have a YouTube song with 10 million plus views while other artists of their ilk do. He's asking for feedback from Facebook fans.

I went to YouTube to see what he was referencing and sure enough he's right. Here are the biggest Styx videos in YouTube views:
- Roboto (official video) 5MM
- Lady (RTP) 4.8MM
- CSA (official) 4.7 MM
- Boat on River (official) 4.1MM
- TMTOMH (official) 2.4MM
- Mr. Roboto (another official) 1.3MM
- Babe (official) 1.3MM
- SMTW (official) 1.1 MM

So, what is your thought?

It's got to be because the label refused to allow Dennis to write and produce all of the videos. If he could have had complete control, all of these would be huge hits.

And there's that negativity I speak of. Not even coaxed or deserved, but certainly changes the direction of the topic.

My thought on this subject is that 'Show Me The Way' was one of the best videos EVER period!! All three videos that were done for Edge were excellent with Show Me The Way being an EPIC video. Gunge killed that era for rock and roll bands such as Styx. They got some love but they became more unhip than they already were.

On a side not the song Edge Of The Century should of been released and a video done for it. Could of been a classic if done properly. All In A Days Work.........

GREAT album!!!

masque wrote:i think a good chunk of this comes because they essentially quit making videos around 83........while bands like journey, foreigner and reo all had huge hits and videos that went along with those hits later in the decade.....at a time when more people had mtv and were exposed to those videos.

many folks forget that in the first few years of mtv there were tons of people throughout the nation that did not have mtv. so by the time nearly everyone did styx was no longer making videos while those other bands still were and had hits with those videos.

and lastly, styx's videos were very low production videos that looked cheesy and in no way are "memorable" at all. the most memorable video they ever did was mr. roboto and if you go watch it now it is very low quality outside of the roboto mask. plus the band was virtually non-existent in the video.

This is a great post, it really hits the nail on the head.

I don't think the band had much say or creative control in the making of their videos. This was addressed in an older thread here, in a discussion of Haven't We Been Here Before. That video has absolutely nothing to do with the song, and it was Sterling, I think, who wrote that the band just went along with what the director said and followed his concept.

Cassie May wrote:I don't think the band had much say or creative control in the making of their videos. This was addressed in an older thread here, in a discussion of Haven't We Been Here Before. That video has absolutely nothing to do with the song, and it was Sterling, I think, who wrote that the band just went along with what the director said and followed his concept.

When it comes to the HWBHB video, I think that it has a lot to do with the fact that other then Dennis, the rest of them had no real interest in the project. I think at that point most of them were just going through the motions to get it over with.

Baron Von Bielski wrote:

Monker wrote:It's got to be because the label refused to allow Dennis to write and produce all of the videos. If he could have had complete control, all of these would be huge hits.

And there's that negativity I speak of. Not even coaxed or deserved, but certainly changes the direction of the topic.

Add to that this is coming from someone that keeps criticizing others for doing it. I am sure though Monker will find a way to justify it or claim that's not what happened here.

Cassie May wrote:

masque wrote:i think a good chunk of this comes because they essentially quit making videos around 83........while bands like journey, foreigner and reo all had huge hits and videos that went along with those hits later in the decade.....at a time when more people had mtv and were exposed to those videos.

many folks forget that in the first few years of mtv there were tons of people throughout the nation that did not have mtv. so by the time nearly everyone did styx was no longer making videos while those other bands still were and had hits with those videos.

and lastly, styx's videos were very low production videos that looked cheesy and in no way are "memorable" at all. the most memorable video they ever did was mr. roboto and if you go watch it now it is very low quality outside of the roboto mask. plus the band was virtually non-existent in the video.

This is a great post, it really hits the nail on the head.

I don't think the band had much say or creative control in the making of their videos. This was addressed in an older thread here, in a discussion of Haven't We Been Here Before. That video has absolutely nothing to do with the song, and it was Sterling, I think, who wrote that the band just went along with what the director said and followed his concept.

Yeah, valid point. We did have MTV (I remember watching the first hour of it). But not everyone did. Back then it was just old 70's clips of bands and promotional videos. Then around 82-83 bands started getting creative. They did promote Roboto on MTV and here is the commercial I remember seeing in heavy rotation on MTV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAI4aqopSt8

Martha Quinn did all kinds of promotions for them and they seemed to be everywhere on MTV Music News.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g29yO95lH0s

After that they disappeared with the exception of Dennis being a guest VJ on MTV and Tommy's Notre Dame show.

Then Quiet Riot & Michael Jackson happened. Not that Quiet Riot is the greatest band ever but they were one of the first Heavy Metal bands to cross the mainstream market and Michael changed the way videos were done. Styx did nothing after Kilroy and kids my age moved on to Ratt, Quiet Riot, Kiss without make-up (Lick It Up was huge back then) and bands like Styx just got forgotten. Their counterparts continued on, REO, Journey, Cheap Trick all with varying degrees of success. While Ratt and the above "harder" bands were catering to the rock crowd our favorite bands were delivering a more slick and polished sound (REO's Variety Tonight, while a good song is nowhere near as enjoyable as anything on Hi Infidelity nor is Suzanne by Journey as good as anything from Frontiers or Escape). As much as I wanted NEW Styx music I just don't think I would have wanted that mid to late 80's slick production sound on a Styx album.

Even bands like Foghat were changing their sound to adapt to the times and while listenable you would never know this was Foghat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Lxno4pQzU

And, as Kilroy1983 pointed out, I just don't go to YouTube looking for the videos that I already have on DVD.

FormerDJMike wrote:-
Yeah, valid point. We did have MTV (I remember watching the first hour of it). But not everyone did. Back then it was just old 70's clips of bands and promotional videos. Then around 82-83 bands started getting creative. They did promote Roboto on MTV and here is the commercial I remember seeing in heavy rotation on MTV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAI4aqopSt8

Martha Quinn did all kinds of promotions for them and they seemed to be everywhere on MTV Music News.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g29yO95lH0s

After that they disappeared with the exception of Dennis being a guest VJ on MTV and Tommy's Notre Dame show.

Well, a couple points on all that.

First, in those early days, there were videos. A lot of bands saw the value. There were old concert videos mixed in with the actual filmed videos. All of Journey Escape videos were edited from the concert. But, I remember there being a lot of videos from that time...it wasn't unlimited, not enough to go 24hrs with no repeats, but it seems there were more than what people expect.

Tommy also had the "Tommy Shaw Solo" documentary thing, in addition to the Notre Dame concert. Later on, there was also Damn Yankees who performed a few Styx songs in concert. Then, of course Edge, and the brief reunion. So, there was a direct line of "stuff" to keep Styx in the public mind...although most of that was not on MTV. MTV, and popular music in general, had moved on to Grunge and by the early 90's anything 80's was not cool to the kiddos.

Then Quiet Riot & Michael Jackson happened. Not that Quiet Riot is the greatest band ever but they were one of the first Heavy Metal bands to cross the mainstream market and Michael changed the way videos were done.

I agree that Quiet Riot was a breakout band for that pop-metal sorta sound...but I don't think their videos were anything special. When it comes down to it, they only had two memorable songs. You are of course correct about Michael Jackson. The other video bands I remember were Duran Duran, Huey Lewis, Cyndi Lauper, Madonna...mostly pop crap. The metal stuff seemed to be segregated into their own category most of the time...with the exception of most glam bands.

Styx did nothing after Kilroy and kids my age moved on to Ratt, Quiet Riot, Kiss without make-up (Lick It Up was huge back then) and bands like Styx just got forgotten.

I wouldn't say "forgotten", more like thrown underground. You had to know and look for them. I will say I heard Styx on the radio a lot back then...but not so much on MTV.

Their counterparts continued on, REO, Journey, Cheap Trick all with varying degrees of success. While Ratt and the above "harder" bands were catering to the rock crowd our favorite bands were delivering a more slick and polished sound (REO's Variety Tonight, while a good song is nowhere near as enjoyable as anything on Hi Infidelity nor is Suzanne by Journey as good as anything from Frontiers or Escape). As much as I wanted NEW Styx music I just don't think I would have wanted that mid to late 80's slick production sound on a Styx album.

I would agree with all of this...Journey did have the soundtrack songs, "Ask the Lonely" and "Only the Young", which kept them on the radio with new stuff between Frontiers and ROR...much more Journey'ish than "Suzanne", or most of the stuff on ROR. "Girl Can't Help It" and "I'll Be Alright Without You" were bigger hits and her MUCH more, too...and sound a lot better.

To answer the original question in a serious way...the old videos are not that good or memorable. Even Mr. Roboto, with all of it's movie-like production comes off as campy and lame nowadays...see it once and most people probably don't care to keep coming back. And, a band like Jouirney had their nostalgic comeback RECENTLY. Styx' came years ago with Cartman singing CSA and the Roboto commercial. I would think the hits on YouTube looked a bit different back then.

GREAT posts DJ & Monker. I agree with both of you 100%.

I saw Dennis (solo) Desert Moon & Back To The World being alot like Dan Folgeberg back then. Only Folgeberg had much more MTV video success.

I have an excellent book on the creation and early years of MTV titled, MTV Ruled the World by Greg Prato. It's a collection of interviews and quotes from the producers, creators, and first group of VJs, plus the artists themselves. Really interesting stuff.

When MTV launched, it was not in all markets. Some parts of the country didn't get it til up to a year after the initial launch date. The channel had only about 300 videos to start with, and most of them were from British acts who had been making artsy videos for quite some time. American acts had mainly just made promotional clips, such as Styx' triad of clips for the Grand Illusion album. Todd Rundgren is credited as being perhaps the first American act to create videos; in fact, the book says he also had an idea for an all-video TV channel before MTV launched.

There is an interesting quote by Joe Elliot that addresses the struggle a lot of 70s bands had during this transitional time:

JOE ELLIOT: You have to remember there were a lot of people that were actually threatened by this channel. A lot of bands that were established before we came along looked at it with scorn. I've talked to them about it--bands like Journey, Kiss, Styx, maybe even REO Speedwagon--they were like, "Why do we have to shoot videos? We never had to do this before." They took this....I wouldn't say lazy stance, but like a stance against it. They reluctantly shot videos, and consequently, they didn't make very good ones.

Here's another quote from Joe:

JOE ELLIOT: The poor guys in Styx have got to live with that fucking "Mr Roboto" thing for the rest of their lives. They can blame the singer who's gone now. I always hated Dennis DeYoung. I thought he was a complete nob-head. But the rest of the guys are lovely. Thank God they've got Lawrence (Gowan) in the band now. I mean, I've sat down with Tommy (Shaw) over a cappuccino, and said, "What the hell were you guys thinking, man?" It's just fucking ridiculous. There's no redeeming factors to it at all. Styx were a great band. But grown men wearing robot suits and walking around like a robot...what the fuck is that all about? It's more ridiculous than anything we ever did.

Cassie May wrote:Here's another quote from Joe:

JOE ELLIOT: The poor guys in Styx have got to live with that fucking "Mr Roboto" thing for the rest of their lives. They can blame the singer who's gone now. I always hated Dennis DeYoung. I thought he was a complete nob-head. But the rest of the guys are lovely. Thank God they've got Lawrence (Gowan) in the band now. I mean, I've sat down with Tommy (Shaw) over a cappuccino, and said, "What the hell were you guys thinking, man?" It's just fucking ridiculous. There's no redeeming factors to it at all. Styx were a great band. But grown men wearing robot suits and walking around like a robot...what the fuck is that all about? It's more ridiculous than anything we ever did.

I used to think that Joe was a nob-head and his band was shit.But now have a lot more respect for him and his band.

gr8dane wrote:

Cassie May wrote:Here's another quote from Joe:

JOE ELLIOT: The poor guys in Styx have got to live with that fucking "Mr Roboto" thing for the rest of their lives. They can blame the singer who's gone now. I always hated Dennis DeYoung. I thought he was a complete nob-head. But the rest of the guys are lovely. Thank God they've got Lawrence (Gowan) in the band now. I mean, I've sat down with Tommy (Shaw) over a cappuccino, and said, "What the hell were you guys thinking, man?" It's just fucking ridiculous. There's no redeeming factors to it at all. Styx were a great band. But grown men wearing robot suits and walking around like a robot...what the fuck is that all about? It's more ridiculous than anything we ever did.

I used to think that Joe was a nob-head and his band was shit.But now have a lot more respect for him and his band.

And I have a lot less respect. Joe acts like his band never put out any clunkers. Anything after Pyromania sucks his balls.

Toph wrote:

gr8dane wrote:

Cassie May wrote:Here's another quote from Joe:

JOE ELLIOT: The poor guys in Styx have got to live with that fucking "Mr Roboto" thing for the rest of their lives. They can blame the singer who's gone now. I always hated Dennis DeYoung. I thought he was a complete nob-head. But the rest of the guys are lovely. Thank God they've got Lawrence (Gowan) in the band now. I mean, I've sat down with Tommy (Shaw) over a cappuccino, and said, "What the hell were you guys thinking, man?" It's just fucking ridiculous. There's no redeeming factors to it at all. Styx were a great band. But grown men wearing robot suits and walking around like a robot...what the fuck is that all about? It's more ridiculous than anything we ever did.

I used to think that Joe was a nob-head and his band was shit.But now have a lot more respect for him and his band.

And I have a lot less respect. Joe acts like his band never put out any clunkers. Anything after Pyromania sucks his balls.

Looks like you missed half of what he said.
The robot suit part.
Don't think Joe was Captain Highliner on the Fish & Chip Tour or
Gene the Dancing Machine on Sparkle Lounge.
They may have had shitty songs,but at least they didn't dress the part.

gr8dane wrote:Looks like you missed half of what he said.
The robot suit part.
Don't think Joe was Captain Highliner on the Fish & Chip Tour or
Gene the Dancing Machine on Sparkle Lounge.
They may have had shitty songs,but at least they didn't dress the part.

They are a band that needs to have backing tracks to shore up their live performances. Something Styx never had to do. Which for me is worse. If I want to hear a recording, I'd rather stay home and listen to it. It's cheaper.
So what they are\were is Milli Vanilli.

I actually admire the hell out of Joe and his band mates for sticking by Rick Allen (drummer) when he lost him arm in the car wreck. They were BIG back then( Pyromania) but wouldn't get HUGE until Hysteria. Their waiting for Rick to heal could have destroyed their momentum, popularity and Def Leppard as a popular band. They waited for Rick to get healthy enough and to learn to play with one arm and his feet. They deserved all the riches they got for sticking by him. They risked it all for a drummer. That's pretty damn impressive on all fronts.

It's not even close to the same and Styx was long past their prime when Dennis contracted the viral illness that led to his light sensitivity.

The tour ought to be billed as the 'Stand By or Bail OutTour'.

Boomchild wrote:

gr8dane wrote:Looks like you missed half of what he said.
The robot suit part.
Don't think Joe was Captain Highliner on the Fish & Chip Tour or
Gene the Dancing Machine on Sparkle Lounge.
They may have had shitty songs,but at least they didn't dress the part.

They are a band that needs to have backing tracks to shore up their live performances. Something Styx never had to do. Which for me is worse. If I want to hear a recording, I'd rather stay home and listen to it. It's cheaper.
So what they are\were is Milli Vanilli.

Girl you know it's true.
An all time lip sync classic.

The back tracks is news to me.You sure that's the truth.


Anyways,that does not take a way from his statement,which I agree with 110%,
that Kilroy and the robot walk was a joke.
And yes,I did see the Kilroy tour.

By the way,I am proud to say,I never bought Kilroy was here.
And no,I didn't steal it either.

Toph wrote:

gr8dane wrote:

Cassie May wrote:Here's another quote from Joe:

JOE ELLIOT: The poor guys in Styx have got to live with that fucking "Mr Roboto" thing for the rest of their lives. They can blame the singer who's gone now. I always hated Dennis DeYoung. I thought he was a complete nob-head. But the rest of the guys are lovely. Thank God they've got Lawrence (Gowan) in the band now. I mean, I've sat down with Tommy (Shaw) over a cappuccino, and said, "What the hell were you guys thinking, man?" It's just fucking ridiculous. There's no redeeming factors to it at all. Styx were a great band. But grown men wearing robot suits and walking around like a robot...what the fuck is that all about? It's more ridiculous than anything we ever did.

I used to think that Joe was a nob-head and his band was shit.But now have a lot more respect for him and his band.

And I have a lot less respect. Joe acts like his band never put out any clunkers. Anything after Pyromania sucks his balls.

Holy crap....you are so high into "hits" and "sales" being THE gauge for judging success....and then you say the above, which implies that HYSTERIA "sucks balls". That album is probably gone diamond by now...and had at least five 'hits'. It was modeled by Mutt as being a rock version of Thriller...with hit after hit after hit.

Yet YOU...the dude on here who judges EVERYTHING by sales and charts, says it sucks. That is the most incredibly hypocrite like thing I have read on this forum in a LONG time.

And, I agree that Pyromania is a better album...but Hysteria absolutely does NOT suck.

yogi wrote:I actually admire the hell out of Joe and his band mates for sticking by Rick Allen (drummer) when he lost him arm in the car wreck. They were BIG back then( Pyromania) but wouldn't get HUGE until Hysteria. Their waiting for Rick to heal could have destroyed their momentum, popularity and Def Leppard as a popular band. They waited for Rick to get healthy enough and to learn to play with one arm and his feet. They deserved all the riches they got for sticking by him. They risked it all for a drummer. That's pretty damn impressive on all fronts.

It's not even close to the same and Styx was long past their prime when Dennis contracted the viral illness that led to his light sensitivity.

The tour ought to be billed as the 'Stand By or Bail OutTour'.

the other BIG difference between what DL did for their drummer and what Styx did with Dennis is that Rick was not the big ego in the band. I would imagine it would be a lot easier to fire the ego in the band...and it would be a lot easier to wait for the lowly drummer to see if he can make a comeback.

And, I wouldn't say they "risked it all". After Pyromania, they were set up for a huge hit...they had a lot going for them. Sure, they had risk...but they had a huge album to follow up on, and Mutt leading the team behind the scenes. In fact, not rushing into things may have helped them produce an album like Hysteria.

Monker wrote:the other BIG difference between what DL did for their drummer and what Styx did with Dennis is that Rick was not the big ego in the band.

As if DDY was the only "big ego" in the band. Either you are biased or deaf and blind. They all had big egos except for maybe Chuck and John. This is one of the reasons that Styx was doomed to fail at some point. As the success of the band grew so did all of their egos. Dennis in an interview even commented on it. He said something to the effect that as a group gains more and more success each member tends to feel they had more to do with the groups success then others in the group.

Boomchild wrote:

Monker wrote:the other BIG difference between what DL did for their drummer and what Styx did with Dennis is that Rick was not the big ego in the band.

As if DDY was the only "big ego" in the band. Either you are biased or deaf and blind. They all had big egos except for maybe Chuck and John. This is one of the reasons that Styx was doomed to fail at some point. As the success of the band grew so did all of their egos. Dennis in an interview even commented on it. He said something to the effect that as a group gains more and more success each member tends to feel they had more to do with the groups success then others in the group.

The problem is that JY has a massive ego - and for no reason. He sucks as a songwriter, sucks as a vocalist, and is merely an average guitar player. JY brought the "Business sense" to the band - hell they could have hired an accountant for that....

Toph wrote:The problem is that JY has a massive ego - and for no reason. He sucks as a songwriter, sucks as a vocalist, and is merely an average guitar player. JY brought the "Business sense" to the band - hell they could have hired an accountant for that....

Songwriting is his biggest weak point. To say that he "sucks" as a vocalist is really not true. Without his voice you wouldn't have had those trademark harmonies. I will say over time he has lost quite a bit in his vocal capabilities. As far as his guitar playing, it's proficient and very scripted. When it comes to egos, in general I think his is on par with DDY's.