MR

Going through some stuff now. This tune is resonating with me. Really dig the sax solo at the end. This whole album is underrated. Especially this is not a test. Great stuff from ts.

They worst of the worst of Shaw's cds. Production is awful, it ruins the songs. There are, like you said, some good songs. I always liked Jealousy and This is Not A Test. Just really, really bad production.

To me this album screamed "contractual obligation".

HORRIBLE album BUT, " Nature of the Beast" is one of Tommy's best songs. I also did like Reach For The Bottle.

Major drop after the Girls With Guns album.

I remember the part in Sterling's book where Tommy was meeting with someone and they were asking him asking him what the hell he was thinking while playing some songs to him off What If. I believe this was when he was looking for a record deal which became Ambition. Maybe it was Terry Thomas?

Boomchild wrote:I remember the part in Sterling's book where Tommy was meeting with someone and they were asking him asking him what the hell he was thinking while playing some songs to him off What If. I believe this was when he was looking for a record deal which became Ambition. Maybe it was Terry Thomas?

It was Bud Prager, the guy who became Tommy's agent.

I hated the What If album. The title song was ok, Reach for the Bottle and Jealousy were ok, but the rest were cringe-worthy. To me, the whole album smacked not so much of contractual obligation, but of heavy drug use. Which Tommy later admitted to, saying that he was so far gone he didn't realize what he had with the chance at a solo career and he didn't treat it they way he should have.

On the other hand, 7 Deadly Zens is excellent.

i dont know man, "what If" the album is kind of like the old crazy aunt in your family.....you know she's crazy and you might even recognize that out in public she could be a bit embarrassing, but you still love her.

i recognize that what if has some clunkers on it and the production is weak....but i have enjoyed that album many times over the years......it has a few songs that I really like alot, such as nature of the beast, jealously, what if, see me now, this is not a test and bad times.

masque wrote:i dont know man, "what If" the album is kind of like the old crazy aunt in your family.....you know she's crazy and you might even recognize that out in public she could be a bit embarrassing, but you still love her.

i recognize that what if has some clunkers on it and the production is weak....but i have enjoyed that album many times over the years......it has a few songs that I really like alot, such as nature of the beast, jealously, what if, see me now, this is not a test and bad times.

No offense, but Bad Times is a clunker. The lyrics are very sophomoric. Like this part:

Let's get naked
Take a dip
I'll be the submarine you be the ship

WTF??????

I think Tommy really blew it when comes to starting a solo career. Here he had a major label backing him and I assume at this point he was feeling there was no going back to Styx. He let his drug habit get the better of him. I think he could have did really well with a solo career if he would have straightened himself out.

Boomchild wrote:

masque wrote:i dont know man, "what If" the album is kind of like the old crazy aunt in your family.....you know she's crazy and you might even recognize that out in public she could be a bit embarrassing, but you still love her.

i recognize that what if has some clunkers on it and the production is weak....but i have enjoyed that album many times over the years......it has a few songs that I really like alot, such as nature of the beast, jealously, what if, see me now, this is not a test and bad times.

No offense, but Bad Times is a clunker. The lyrics are very sophomoric. Like this part:

Let's get naked
Take a dip
I'll be the submarine you be the ship

WTF??????

no offense taken....that's the cool thing about music, it's all subjective. I am a big fan of songs that are sort of tongue in cheek and done with a wink....like the artist is in on the joke. I think band times was meant to be a fun silly song and I have always seen it as a funny silly song that I happen to like alot.

i'm the same way about the lyrics to music time that DDY wrote as well.....very funny and done with a wink I think.

I am also a huge fan of david lee roth and his lyrics were always a cross between funny, tongue in cheek and flat out bizarre.

with all of that said, I totally understand why someone would dislike bad times......but i dig it.

Boomchild wrote:I think Tommy really blew it when comes to starting a solo career. Here he had a major label backing him and I assume at this point he was feeling there was no going back to Styx. He let his drug habit get the better of him. I think he could have did really well with a solo career if he would have straightened himself out.

i think that same story can be said of hundreds ,if not thousands, of artists that blew a good chance because of drugs.

but in tommy's case it would have been doubtful he would have had much staying power like a don henley even if he were clean. i just dont think the type of material he wrote would have been super popular into the mid to late 80's. even though I personally love what he wrote, most of the time.

but the good news for tommy was that he was bale to get control of his life have a real nice run with damn yankees and a resurrection with styx that has been really nice for him.

masque wrote:

Boomchild wrote:I think Tommy really blew it when comes to starting a solo career. Here he had a major label backing him and I assume at this point he was feeling there was no going back to Styx. He let his drug habit get the better of him. I think he could have did really well with a solo career if he would have straightened himself out.

i think that same story can be said of hundreds ,if not thousands, of artists that blew a good chance because of drugs.

but in tommy's case it would have been doubtful he would have had much staying power like a don henley even if he were clean. i just dont think the type of material he wrote would have been super popular into the mid to late 80's. even though I personally love what he wrote, most of the time.

but the good news for tommy was that he was bale to get control of his life have a real nice run with damn yankees and a resurrection with styx that has been really nice for him.

Had Tommy been clean and more capable of managing himself and what he wrote and recorded, I wonder what he could have done. From the many different styles of music he is able to write and play, he might have been able to put out some really good albums and capitalize on his Styx fame. I think he has sides that have never been fully captured on record, which was what Nugent used to allude to when they were in Damn Yankees. Even though 7DZ is pretty dated-sounding with 90s production values, I think that is a really good record that was majorly overlooked. But, as with everything else connected with Styx and its members, it is a game of what if? (Pun intended )

I always had the impression, TS wanted to rock and was held back by Styx.
But I have yet to hear a "Rock Song" from his solo career. Sure Damn Yankees have some true rockers, but I attribute that to Jack Blades.

If Styx puts out a new album, they need outside writers to really make it rock.

scarab wrote:I always had the impression, TS wanted to rock and was held back by Styx.
But I have yet to hear a "Rock Song" from his solo career. Sure Damn Yankees have some true rockers, but I attribute that to Jack Blades.

If Styx puts out a new album, they need outside writers to really make it rock.

WOW ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

Boomchild wrote:

scarab wrote:I always had the impression, TS wanted to rock and was held back by Styx.
But I have yet to hear a "Rock Song" from his solo career. Sure Damn Yankees have some true rockers, but I attribute that to Jack Blades.

If Styx puts out a new album, they need outside writers to really make it rock.

WOW ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

Is it ? Where ?

Boomchild wrote:

masque wrote:i dont know man, "what If" the album is kind of like the old crazy aunt in your family.....you know she's crazy and you might even recognize that out in public she could be a bit embarrassing, but you still love her.

i recognize that what if has some clunkers on it and the production is weak....but i have enjoyed that album many times over the years......it has a few songs that I really like alot, such as nature of the beast, jealously, what if, see me now, this is not a test and bad times.

No offense, but Bad Times is a clunker. The lyrics are very sophomoric. Like this part:

Let's get naked
Take a dip
I'll be the submarine you be the ship

WTF??????

Well,if swimming and naval lyrics is not to your liking,
maybe if a little paedo lyric turns your crank,
you can always listen to 'Lonely Child',
and if you like that one,there is Jennifer.

gr8dane wrote:Well,if swimming and naval lyrics is not to your liking,
maybe if a little paedo lyric turns your crank,
you can always listen to 'Lonely Child',
and if you like that one,there is Jennifer.

If you think that this is just partial criticism toward TS, let me clear that up. They all have written clunkers and hokey material. In the case of DDY,Boys will be Boys, comes to mind as one example. Then you have JY, who if it wasn't for someone else co-writing with him, the majority of his output would have been a heap of clunkers. As evidenced by the majority of his solo material. Now back to the subject of Bad Times, even TS hates the song. The first time What If was remastered and re-released, he put that song at the very end of the album. Complete with a sound of a phono needle scratching across a vinyl record.

gr8dane wrote:Is it ? Where ?

To their egos of course.

I don't think they need outside writing at all. I think they could make a decent Styx album, but bring in a co-producer to kinda be that objective voice.

[quote="scarab"]I always had the impression, TS wanted to rock and was held back by Styx.
But I have yet to hear a "Rock Song" from his solo career. Sure Damn Yankees have some true rockers, but I attribute that to Jack Blades.

If Styx puts out a new album, they need outside writers to really make it rock.[/quote]


Tommy's MAJOR solo ROCK songs include:
1. Come In and Explain ( Girls With Guns)
2. No Such Thing ( Ambition)
3. Ocean ( Seven Deadly Zens)
4. Stop Knockin ( Seven Deadly Zens)
5. Dangerous Game ( Ambition)
6. Girls With Guns ( Girls with Guns)
7. Down On The Ground ( Seven Deadly Zens)
8. Ambition ( Ambition)
9. Free To Love You ( Girls With Guns)
10. Jealousy ( What If)
11. Kiss Me Hello ( Girls With Guns)
12. Reach For The Bottle ( What If)
13. What Do You Want From This Life ( Seven Deadly Zens)
14. Outsider ( Ambition)

scarab wrote:I always had the impression, TS wanted to rock and was held back by Styx.
But I have yet to hear a "Rock Song" from his solo career. Sure Damn Yankees have some true rockers, but I attribute that to Jack Blades.

If Styx puts out a new album, they need outside writers to really make it rock.

so you've never heard "come in and explain" and "no such thing"? several others are songs I would consider rock songs but maybe not as rocky as you are discussing.

as for DY, I think TS did alot of that writing with Jack. at least based on the interviews I have seen with them.

i think the thing that people misunderstand all the time and it gets the literal interpretation is his comments about wanting to "rock".

i think tommy actually said "he had all these rock songs inside him that needed to come out"......and instead they were having to write specific songs about robots and I think he mostly believed that they didn't need to go down the road of babe and first time.

to tommy and most others a song like too much time on my hands is a "rock song"......and I think when he said that he meant he just didn't want to doing albums full of songs like babe.

and if you listen to his solo albums, he pretty much didn't have any songs that sounded like babe or first time.....lonely school wasn't far from that kind of sound but those kinds of songs for him were very few and far between, where he feared they were becoming the norm for dennis and the singles that would be released.

just because tommy wanted to "rock" doesnt mean he wanted to join Pantera.......different people have different definitions of "rock".

masque wrote:and if you listen to his solo albums, he pretty much didn't have any songs that sounded like babe or first time.....lonely school wasn't far from that kind of sound but those kinds of songs for him were very few and far between, where he feared they were becoming the norm for dennis and the singles that would be released.

just because tommy wanted to "rock" doesnt mean he wanted to join Pantera.......different people have different definitions of "rock".

Perhaps you do not recollect "Little Girl World". As far as the "rock" thing, I don't think anyone commenting on this statement was thinking of material in the style of Pantera.

Boomchild wrote:

masque wrote:and if you listen to his solo albums, he pretty much didn't have any songs that sounded like babe or first time.....lonely school wasn't far from that kind of sound but those kinds of songs for him were very few and far between, where he feared they were becoming the norm for dennis and the singles that would be released.

just because tommy wanted to "rock" doesnt mean he wanted to join Pantera.......different people have different definitions of "rock".

Perhaps you do not recollect "Little Girl World". As far as the "rock" thing, I don't think anyone commenting on this statement was thinking of material in the style of Pantera.

You honestly think "Little Girl World" sounds like "Babe"?

I agree with Masque....and I'll add that I have always thought that Tommy was tired of feeling controlled....and that is what was meant by "I just want to rock", more than the style of music.

Monker wrote:
You honestly think "Little Girl World" sounds like "Babe"?

In terms of song style yes it does. It's a ballad. Babe is a ballad. Lonely School doesn't "sound" like Babe either. But it's a ballad. I remember Tommy's comment from their BTM episode where he was commenting about First Time and that Styx didn't need to enter into "Barry Manilow's territory". Little Girl world is in that territory in my opinion. With respect to Tommy's comment of "I want to Rock", it seems to me he was wishing that they stuck with the style and sound of what was on GI and PO8. You wouldn't find any of the songs mentioned above on those albums.

Boomchild wrote:

gr8dane wrote:Is it ? Where ?

To their egos of course.

Hilarious.
They have had others write with them before.(You mentioned that yourself)
On Wooden Nickel albums.
On solo albums
Tommy on Damn Yanks
On Brave new world
On Cyclorama
And they did a covers album under the Styx name

So because you and scarab think it's going to hurt their egos,
it is ???

Boomchild wrote:

masque wrote:and if you listen to his solo albums, he pretty much didn't have any songs that sounded like babe or first time.....lonely school wasn't far from that kind of sound but those kinds of songs for him were very few and far between, where he feared they were becoming the norm for dennis and the singles that would be released.

just because tommy wanted to "rock" doesnt mean he wanted to join Pantera.......different people have different definitions of "rock".

Perhaps you do not recollect "Little Girl World". As far as the "rock" thing, I don't think anyone commenting on this statement was thinking of material in the style of Pantera.

yes I recollect it but I dont really classify it in he same category as lonely school but I will concede that others would agree with you.

as far as the Pantera thing, my point is that from my point of view songs like what if, girls with guns and many other like that are "rock" songs in my eyes and far more appealing to me that songs like babe and first time......i bet tommy feels the same way too.

gr8dane wrote:

Boomchild wrote:

gr8dane wrote:Is it ? Where ?

To their egos of course.

Hilarious.
They have had others write with them before.(You mentioned that yourself)
On Wooden Nickel albums.
On solo albums
Tommy on Damn Yanks
On Brave new world
On Cyclorama
And they did a covers album under the Styx name

So because you and scarab think it's going to hurt their egos,
it is ???

The only time I mentioned anything about other writers was when discussing their very first album. Which would not be the same situation. I am talking about the present. After they have had mutli platinum albums in which they were not using outside writers. According to one member this is "The Best Version of Styx". If that's the case and they can't write material on their own as they have for the bulk of their career that's pretty sad. Also, I'm not the one that brought up the subject of outside writers in the first place.

Boomchild wrote:The only time I mentioned anything about other writers was when discussing their very first album. Which would not be the same situation. I am talking about the present. After they have had mutli platinum albums in which they were not using outside writers. According to one member this is "The Best Version of Styx". If that's the case and they can't write material on their own as they have for the bulk of their career that's pretty sad.

That is just ridiculous. It doesn't make any difference if Styx uses outside writers or not. It has nothing to do with ego. Their songwriting abilities have been repeatedly proven for DECADES. They have no need to prove anything...especially to appease a few critics on the internet.

Also, I'm not the one that brought up the subject of outside writers in the first place.

No, but you fed the troll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHW5QSLE3E

this is a rock song??


makes me thing this song must be heavy metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nzal0bNGXw