MR

ya know here's the thing. I recognize that Babe is actually a well written song and I would even say it's a goo song. But I can also tell you that it is one of my least favorite styx songs.

more than one thing can be true.

it's good but I dont care for it much.

with that said, it is 1 million percent more than OK that DDY wrote it.......it's his art, and he is entitled to write whatever he wants and whatever he feels. I have never felt that he should ever have to defend the song or any other song he ever wrote. more power to him to write whatever he wants!

to me as a fan, he wrote enough outstanding material along with Tommy and JY's contributions that their music hit me deep inside my core and I have been a lifelong fan......and always will be.

but I do understand how songs like Babe and Roboto alienated more of their rock audiences. but they also were adding fans because of those same songs.......so who knows, would he have done it differently now if he could? I doubt it. it is what it is.

Remember too that it was JY and Tommy who told Dennis to put Babe on the record... as he made a demo, he sang everything and he only had John and Chuck play on it for him.

Yet come the year 2000, suddenly Tommy and JY can't stand Babe and hated that it was on the album.

Dennis' stories have never changed... Tommy and JY's have over the years.

masque wrote:but I do understand how songs like Babe and Roboto alienated more of their rock audiences. but they also were adding fans because of those same songs.......so who knows, would he have done it differently now if he could? I doubt it. it is what it is.

I doubt it as well. Especially when you hear DDY talk about songs and the style of songs. He has consistently said that for him a good song is a good song. No matter what style it is in. He never wanted constraints put on the types of songs the band could do. There in lies the clash with his other band mates. They seemed to want to stick to a certain formula.

As far a Babe, I have always liked the song. I never had a problem with it and it sis not effect what I thought about the band. Having said that I have somewhat grown tired of hearing it. But I could say that about a number of their core popular songs.

StyxGuy wrote:Remember too that it was JY and Tommy who told Dennis to put Babe on the record... as he made a demo, he sang everything and he only had John and Chuck play on it for him.

Yet come the year 2000, suddenly Tommy and JY can't stand Babe and hated that it was on the album.

Dennis' stories have never changed... Tommy and JY's have over the years.

Actually, DDY played the demo for the record execs and they said they wanted it on the album. Because of that and the feedback DDY got from friends and family, he pitched it to TS and JY. They agreed to it but had reservations about having a straight ballad on a Styx album. Things then really got messy when the label and DDY were pushing to use First Time as the follow up single to Babe. That is what led to DDY's firing from the band at that time. Which did not last long till they asked him back. Something tells me the rest of the band realized that maybe they were "cutting off their nose despite their face".

StyxGuy wrote:Remember too that it was JY and Tommy who told Dennis to put Babe on the record... as he made a demo, he sang everything and he only had John and Chuck play on it for him.

Yet come the year 2000, suddenly Tommy and JY can't stand Babe and hated that it was on the album.

Dennis' stories have never changed... Tommy and JY's have over the years.

actually, I also agree with boomchild as to how that all went down......based on what we all think we know...I say think we know, because none of us were there during any discussions etc.

with that said, even if stories or positions have changed, none of that matters at all to me regarding my opinion of things. I have always been a styx fan that preferred fooling yourself, castle walls, crystal ball, ballerina, mother dear, pieces of eight, renegade, queen of spades, blue collar man, put me on, great white hope, man in the wilderness and those types of songs over babe any day of the week.

like i said, as a musician myself, i recognize that babe is a quality song and I understand why it was popular. I just dont prefer it. and if I were trying to turn a new person onto styx, I would probably run through 50 or more songs, before I would ever play babe or first time.

and here's the thing, I am consistent in my feelings....... waiting on a girl like you and I want to know what love is are two of my least favorite foreigner songs. I ten thousand times prefer to hear head games, long way from home and juke box hero over those others.

open arms is not one of my faves from journey.....give me stone in love. although i will say journey's ballads are some of the best in the industry.

but typically speaking I prefer things a bit more dark or uptempo.....but i can and do love things like boat on the river......even though its not a rocker, it is dark and has a longing dark feeling to it. the melody and "feel" of the entire song is different than a straight ballad like babe or first time or waiting on a girl like you.

everyone has their preferences, my like or dislike of any of their songs has nothing to do with anything JY or Tommy has ever stated. in fact, i think best of times is probably a top 5 styx song. yet, tommy and JY dont wanna include it in their sets, which I think is a mistake.

I was a sophomore in HS when Cornerstone came out. Neither Babe or First Time were my favorite but I remember still liking them because they were Styx songs that sounded like Styx and they were by far my favorite band. Now when I got to the last song on Side 1 I thought WTF is this shi t. At 15 years old I in no way could digest that song.

Years later I really like Boat On the River but its really really laughable if we know the whole story that DDY got the early boot for Babe and First Time when Boat On The River was on the very same album.

P.S. I ALWAYS thought it was ' to spite your face ' - Dumbass me

Babe would have been tolerable if they ditched the casio sounding syrupy sythns with just a piano.

there is no way that boat on the river is even remotely comparable to being a similar song to babe or first time. babe and first time are pure ballads and boat on the river is closer to being folk than any kind of straight ballad. to me they are as different as day light and dark.

now if you want to compare lonely school from tommys solo album to babe or first time, then i agree 100%.....very similar feel and type song.

scarab wrote:Babe would have been tolerable if they ditched the casio sounding syrupy sythns with just a piano.

you know I sort of agree with that.....I think that whole casio sound electric piano DDY got so attached to really hurt babe, first time, dont let it end and show me the way. all four songs would have been better to my ears with a different sound or piano.

yogi wrote:
P.S. I ALWAYS thought it was ' to spite your face ' - Dumbass me

Your right. I am the dumbass on that one.

masque wrote:actually, I also agree with boomchild as to how that all went down......based on what we all think we know...I say think we know, because none of us were there during any discussions etc.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the stories (from all sides) behind Babe match up. Both sides say DDY was encouraged by the label, family and friends that he had a hit song on his hands. Both sides say that made DDY put it on the table for CS. Both sides say that JY and TS were fearful about doing a straight ballad and were concerned about how fans would respond to it. It is probably the most clear cut details of all of the situations they had between each other.

masque wrote:

scarab wrote:Babe would have been tolerable if they ditched the casio sounding syrupy sythns with just a piano.

you know I sort of agree with that.....I think that whole casio sound electric piano DDY got so attached to really hurt babe, first time, dont let it end and show me the way. all four songs would have been better to my ears with a different sound or piano.

This is interesting, I like the Fender Rhodes electric piano on that song. Especially the tone decay on it. I remember the first time hearing that song on CD with headphones where it really stood out to me.

The fender rhodes is about the only thing I like about Babe.
It should never have been a Styx song.When I think Styx.Babe and First Time are the furthest off.

gr8dane wrote:The fender rhodes is about the only thing I like about Babe.
It should never have been a Styx song.When I think Styx.Babe and First Time are the furthest off.

Both are definitely more of a "guilty pleasure" to me. I first discovered Styx as a teenager (late 90s ) and of course those songs I related to my own being in love.

However... there's a long list of Styx songs I'd put ahead of those. I don't hate the band for doing it, I'm sad that it caused tensions. Though of course I pretty much couldn't stand Cyclorama or really consider it a Styx album

StyxGuy wrote:

gr8dane wrote:The fender rhodes is about the only thing I like about Babe.
It should never have been a Styx song.When I think Styx.Babe and First Time are the furthest off.

Both are definitely more of a "guilty pleasure" to me. I first discovered Styx as a teenager (late 90s ) and of course those songs I related to my own being in love.

However... there's a long list of Styx songs I'd put ahead of those. I don't hate the band for doing it, I'm sad that it caused tensions. Though of course I pretty much couldn't stand Cyclorama or really consider it a Styx album

Don't care for Cyclorama myself, though it does contain one of JY's finest songs.These are the times.
Doesn't get more Styx than that.

gr8dane wrote:The fender rhodes is about the only thing I like about Babe.
It should never have been a Styx song.When I think Styx.Babe and First Time are the furthest off.

It really comes down to personal taste. I always viewed Styx as a band that had diverse musical styles. So those songs never bothered me nor made me think negatively about the band. If you take a position like the above, I think you have to throw the song "She Cares" in there too.

Boomchild wrote:

gr8dane wrote:The fender rhodes is about the only thing I like about Babe.
It should never have been a Styx song.When I think Styx.Babe and First Time are the furthest off.

It really comes down to personal taste. I always viewed Styx as a band that had diverse musical styles. So those songs never bothered me nor made me think negatively about the band. If you take a position like the above, I think you have to throw the song "She Cares" in there too.

She Cares.Not Tommy's best moment.
Styx had great diversity, and thankfully.I am just allergic to totally limp ballads.Specially when they had so much else to offer.
There are bands out there who thrive on ballads, and if I want ballads I will go there.

gr8dane wrote:She Cares.Not Tommy's best moment.
Styx had great diversity, and thankfully.I am just allergic to totally limp ballads.Specially when they had so much else to offer.
There are bands out there who thrive on ballads, and if I want ballads I will go there.

When you think about it, the fact that Tommy brought "She Cares" to the table for the album that followed Cornerstone with Babe on it. He definitely was in the fearful camp when it came to Styx doing ballads.

Boomchild wrote:

gr8dane wrote:She Cares.Not Tommy's best moment.
Styx had great diversity, and thankfully.I am just allergic to totally limp ballads.Specially when they had so much else to offer.
There are bands out there who thrive on ballads, and if I want ballads I will go there.

When you think about it, the fact that Tommy brought "She Cares" to the table for the album that followed Cornerstone with Babe on it. He definitely was in the fearful camp when it came to Styx doing ballads.

She Cares may be a love song, but a ballad it ain't.

gr8dane wrote:She Cares may be a love song, but a ballad it ain't.

OK keep telling yourself that.

while I agree that "she cares" has lyrics that would typically fit the bill for a pop ballad, musically it is not anywhere near what i would call a pop ballad. it is just a straight forward up tempo pop song.....not a rocker either.

Boom......just out of curiosity how do you define what is a pop ballad? I'm not trolling, I am honestly interested in your opinion on the subject.

the reason I ask is because to me a song like "babe" is night and day different than "she cares". I would not classify them the same as all. so I am curious as to the criteria you use to place them in the same category?

masque wrote:while I agree that "she cares" has lyrics that would typically fit the bill for a pop ballad, musically it is not anywhere near what i would call a pop ballad. it is just a straight forward up tempo pop song.....not a rocker either.

Boom......just out of curiosity how do you define what is a pop ballad? I'm not trolling, I am honestly interested in your opinion on the subject.

the reason I ask is because to me a song like "babe" is night and day different than "she cares". I would not classify them the same as all. so I am curious as to the criteria you use to place them in the same category?

Well,blimey.Thank you for saving me the work.
This is exactly what I thought.
She Cares is totally an uptempo pop song, not even sounding close to a ballad.

masque wrote:

Boom......just out of curiosity how do you define what is a pop ballad? I'm not trolling, I am honestly interested in your opinion on the subject.

I consider it being similar due to the lyrics. Sorry, but in my opinion it is what we have been told is the kind of stuff that TS was objecting to.

Boomchild wrote:

masque wrote:

Boom......just out of curiosity how do you define what is a pop ballad? I'm not trolling, I am honestly interested in your opinion on the subject.

I consider it being similar due to the lyrics. Sorry, but in my opinion it is what we have been told is the kind of stuff that TS was objecting to.

Could it be a uptempo pop love song ?
Does singing about love make it a ballad?