MR

One thing I wanted to post is my thoughts that throughout music history, it's been tension that has really forged some of the most brilliant collaborations in music history. While there are, of course, exceptions - think of how many bands didn't get along or out-right hated eachother.

CCR is one example as I mentioned before, but there are countless others. I think Styx fits this mold also. I think it's safe to say the guys in the classic Styx lineup didn't really all get along too well. That creative tension likely became the impotus for some really brilliant music. I mean lets face it - some of the best songs and the ones that touch people are born out of personal tragedy, strife and hard times.

The Beatles are another example... now there was a group of guys who at the end just couldn't stand eachother - yet look at what they were able to do when the "give and take" of being in the band is adherer to. You don't get just one person's vision, but a mix of the best of everyone.

I think this explains why the solo stuff (at least much of it) was sub-standard when compared to Styx. JY's solo stuff is some of the worst music I think I've ever owned (Out on a Day Pass is just awful IMO). "What If" has some moments but isn't much better and "Boomchild" while having some really clevar songs on it - just doesn't really cut it. Even "Seven Deadly Zens" which I consider to be Shaw's best post-Styx album (including Damn Yankees) I feel could have been a lot more powerful if the creative influence of Dennis and JY had been present.

All of this to say - these guys apart will never be what they were together. Tommy and Dennis are very good song writers on their own, but in many ways they need eachother to hit that higher-plane that we all enjoyed throughout the late 70s and early 80s... because even as much as the current Styx members like to imply that DDY ran roughshod over them, even DDY can't help but being influenced by the other creative members around him... I don't think that's really disputable.

Can anyone think of other bands where the members all but hated eachother but yet managed to put it aside in the name of the music? The examples I can think of:

Kansas (Livgren and Walsh)
Styx (Shaw & DeYoung)
The Beatles (Lennon & McCartney)
The Who (Townshend & Daltry)
REO Speedwagon (Cronin & Ritchrath)


Can you think of others?

Ash,

I think one of the most publicized examples is Fleetwood Mac during the recording sessions of Rumors. Tension is good, but sexual tension is fantastic.

John Wetton and Steve Howe didn't see eye to eye and the first Asia album is brilliant.

Axl Rose and Slash weren't really all that chummy, but Appetite for Destruction is like lightning in a bottle.

Tension is good, but sometimes the flipside works too.

Scott

I agree that tension is oten a big part of the creative process. It goes with the territory of artistic temperments.

To Dennis' credit, he certainly said on Behind the Music that Styx could never have been what it was without the contributions of every member. Without leadership. however, you get chaos. He took control and brought all that talent together into a creative force. And was ultimately hated for it. He was/is certainly not alone there.

All you have to do is catch a few episodes of Bands Reunited on VH1 to see that anger and dissention and outright hatred among band members often tears them apart, sending them spinning out of control and, in a lot of cases, into oblivion. I watched all those episodes with great fascination.

This is much more the rule than the exception.

I think by nature, you are going to get a lot more of this dissention within a rock band. The nature of the beast.

I have seen somewhere that James Hetfield is an absolute tyrant in charge of Metallica.

Shoot! Open a book on rock bands, close you eyes, put your finger down on a random name and most of the time you will find a group whose members battled amongst themselves constantly.


Bugsy

Add Roger Waters and David Gilmour to the list...at least in the latter days of Pink Floyd.

Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel weren't speaking to each other at the end of their collaboration either ?

And How about that famous Davy Jones / Micky Dolenz fued with the Monkees ?

The multiple personalities of Prince weren't talking to each other for a few years either !

The Davies Bros. in the Kinks although I am sure that below the hate is love.
Sing and Stewart Copeland

You think any of that sexual tension was going on with Chuck during the recording of The Grand Illusion, Pieces Of eight , Paradise Theatre etc???? Damn thats bad scratch that!!!!!!!! Homophobic me, sorry!!!!!!!!

How about Van Halen...David Lee and Eddie were constantly fighting...What an explosive situation that was...


And Ash, Did you mentioned what if???Tommy complained that Babe and First Time was straying into Barry Manilow territory and that he was so full of rock music and there was no outlet for it in Styx so he left to make Girls With Guns, Lonely School, Little Girl World, and(worse yet) Count On You... And what is humorous about it all,(IMO) Dennis's first two solo albums had more of a Rock sound to them than Tommy's first two....


DeeJay....

Don't forget the scraping the barrel I need a hit so bad I will do anything cover of Ever Since the World Began... That song makes Babe sound like Beat on the Brat.
Styx=Full of Sh**!!!

What was that about Chuck and sexual tension?

First off - Knock off the Chuck Panozzo jokes - because they simply aren't funny and borderline distasteful.

There are parts of Desert Moon that make me cringe that I just can't listen to.... "Boys Will Be Boys" comes to mind.... but I agree with you DeeJay in principle. (By the same token - I can't take Tommy's "This Is Not A Test" and "Friendly Advice"... "Women Really like it when you push em around"?.... ohhhhkay...).

I don't think that TS or DDY's solo stuff was anything to make me say one was SOOOO much better than the other... even though I think Back To The World is DDY's best solo work. Black Wall could have been a Styx Epic....

They decided they didn't need eachother..... when they really did.

Damn Yankees wouldn't have been as rocking without Nugent...

You're absolutely right Ash, "Boys will Be Boys" just plane sucks ,I heard that it was supposed to be the theme song to Grease III...

Did you Know that Little Girl World was suppose to the theme song for Claire Standish, Molly Ringwald's Character in the Breakfast Club...
They probably scrapped the idea because the song sounded to John Denverish( Calypso)...

Good call about Black Wall,I also liked Warning Shot, Don't wait For Heroes, and Harry's Hands...

And you're right again, the sum of the parts really need each other right now..


DeeJay....

Did someone mention Journey? I'd venture to say that the control and perfection that Perry demanded was the key to the success of the group.

Classic Journey is self evident.

Didnt mean to offend there Asher. Or should I be calling you Dr. Rightious??


You know without people like you there would of been NO Kilroy Was Here album.

Damn, I guess I just lost that debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that Dennis on the cover of PO8? hehehehe....!

Gary, that's why I asked how old you were

Even "Seven Deadly Zens" which I consider to be Shaw's best post-Styx album (including Damn Yankees) I feel could have been a lot more powerful if the creative influence of Dennis and JY had been present.

I completely disagree with this. 7DZ is the best solo effort of ANY Styx member, ever. Tommy didn't need JY, or Dennis (or Ted, even on Ocean). 7DZ absolutely blows away all of Tommy's previous solo material...7DZ made it seem like all Tommy and the label were concentrating on were pop and top 40 'hits'.

Dennis and JY's solos are mostly forgettable, and have been basicaly forgotten. JY's videos are good for a laugh and Desert Moon is good in a nostalgic sorta way...But, that's about it.

As for your 'theory' about tension in great bands. I somewhat disagree. When the members have fundamental disagreements on where to take the band and sound it seems to mean the band is about to break up - not that there is going to be a tremendous album coming from the band. So, you end up with a mediocre album where ONE member dominates and the influence from the rest of the band is secondary, if it exists at all...like "Kilroy" and Journey's "Raised on Radio", or even BNW. IMO, even Edge suffers from Dennis controling the sound, without allowing JY to influence the music.

All of this to say - these guys apart will never be what they were together.

I would be completely happy if Tommy went back to creating DY albums, or solo albums like 7DZ. He reached an apex that he could have NEVER achieved with the limitations Dennis put on him in Styx. What did Dennis do after Edge? "10 On Broadway"? Hunchback? He is still hung up on making a "success" out of Hunchback. That is all he can come up with on his own? That REALLY shows how much he NEEDED the influence of JY and Tommy to create great rock music.

Well see I have to disagree. I have 7DZ. I've listened to it, but in all honesty, I think it's no great cd. Certainly not the best of the bunch (but that's my opinion). I really do think the best of the bunch would be Boomchild. (again, that's my opinion).

I think it's great that each member got to do solo work that they like. Nothing wrong with that. Hunchback is not about rock. And yes, I realize you know that. It's a personal choice, and one that is really quite beautiful for what it is.

TS should continue to do what he likes, whether that's DY material, writing yet another Carrot cd, or pursuing solo options.

As for tension in the band and dominating control. well, it goes both ways. Nobaody put a gun to anyone's head and made them record any of the albums you specified. Ultimately, people have to accept responsibility for their choices. As a fan you may not like it, but it's silly to assign blame. They all worked on and recorded the material, so they all need to own it as well. Just my thoughts.

Sadie

Let's not forget one thing, The real tension in Styx started when Cornerstone was being recorded..As Tommy describes it "the slow division of the two camps in Styx" because of the song Babe..And Dennis was fired because of First Time and Returned eight weeks later..

And then came Paradise Theatre....


DeeJay....

Monker, I find you GUILTY over over-generalization....your point about one member domination when a band has tension ( and therefore a less desirable product ) can be proven wrong with 2 little words......

Abbey Road.

This album was the Beatles Zenith, ( some would argue for Sgt Pepper, but I disagree ) and they were at each others throats all through the production process. Despite the tension, they were professional enough and had the needed passion to turn out an Album for the ages.

I sure wish Styx had made an Abbey Road, but all we got was Brave New World....the biggest difference IMO is the Beatles were all in the same city, and in the studio together for large portions of that Album. The Principles in Styx were 1/2 of the country away from each other, and never all in the same place at the same time...in other words, they mailed it in.

Hey Suite... I am like the most immature 36 year old alive and all I can say is "it will happen".
I have a bs job, play in a band and go to school after a 17 year lay off.
Did everybody have a happy Easter?
Also... who was going to replace Dennis after the Cornerstone firing? Was it Steve Walsh? That was right around when he left Kansas and made Schemer/Dreamer. Anybody know?

Steve Walsh in Styx would have been interesting.... especially considering Styx and Kansas are my two all time favorite bands.

However, your chronology was a bit wrong. Walsh left in 1981 after the recording of Audio Visions and subsequent tour because of Kerry Livgren's change in writing style. Walsh did quit briefly after the Point of Know Return record, but - like Dennis - returned shortly there after to record Monolith and Audio Visions.

In fact, the story on the first quitting goes somehting like this:

They were in the studio recording Point Of Know Return and Steve just decided he couldn't take it anymore and told the band he was leaving. Then it got emotional. Livgren got emotional and was crying. Walsh and Livgren ended up hugging (how the story goes) and agreed to go their separate ways. Five minutes later, Walsh stepped into the studio to deliver his vocal for Dust In The Wind..... which he sang in it's entirety in one take... the only time they'd ever recorded a vocal track in one take.

The Kansas situation I believe is creative tension carried to the EXTREME... because there were'nt 1.... or 2... but like 4 camps. Livgren/Hope in one, Walsh in another, Steinhardt in a third and Ehart/Williams in the final group. Walsh HATED Steinhardt at the time, and Walsh couldn't stomach Livgren's new lyrics. Walsh left, John Elefante joins to record a few hits (Play The Game Tonight and Fight Fire With Fire). Kansas hit the point of tension causing creative shutdown... and this was BLINDINGLY obvious on Audio Visions and all the Kansas records up until Power.

Aw Gary, I'm just giving you a hard time.

I don't know the facts, but I'm thinking since Styx had to tour to support their new album, they needed Dennis. They didn't have enough time to find anyone or have anyone "try out" during that short time frame.

Do you all really think Dennis was "fired" during/after Cornerstone because of "Babe" and "First Time"? Since none of us were in the recording studio or with the band during that time, none of us really knew what happened. Just what we "hear" or read now since they kept it hushed back then. Does anyone know who had control on "firing" Dennis? Was it the management, the other 4 guys of the band? Did he walk away? Since there's always 2 sides of the story or in this case more than 2, I don't think we'll ever know what really happened. That's a LONG time ago.

Most bands that make it big nationally have a lot of tension within, if not all bands. Most band members don't know how to handle the "new" stress. If they "make" it big with their first cd they usually have to tour to support it. If a band member is married, then that's more stress added to that individual. Then comes the second cd that's expected with the record label that signed them. If that cd doesn't hit a certain amount of sales, then it's "buh bye" to them. Every band has a "leader" within. Usually this individual does most of the talking in interviews, he/she is the main songwriter and/or lead singer and then ends up being the center of attention. Jealously plays a big role of the tension in the band too.

Just a few of my thoughts and opinions

Dennis himself said that he was FIRED. For two months. And then they asked him back and he said ok. It was on behind the music.

Interesting commentary here from everyone. I always love reading about band histories and interworkings.
I do believe that tension takes many forms and some groups were/are able to work together despite individual personal frustrations.

The Beatles were a prime example, as Classic says. I feel Abbey Road was their finest recording and they were not a happy group of performers at the time for sure. But one must remember they always recorded under the firm and guiding hand of George Martin, who likely kept them focused.

When that leader is also a member of the band other members may chafe and feel that person has no business setting him or herself up that way. That is likely the case with MOST bands, Styx certainly in a big way.

As I said earlier, artistic temperments certainly play a large role in the RANGE of emotions that are likely exhibited.

Bugsy