MR

I have had VH1Classic on all morning while I prepare to go to New York to see DENNIS.

I was thinking while watching and listening that the power ballad was a HUGE part of nearly every single rock group out there --- Hair Bands, Prog. Rock Bands, Metal Bands.

Often the power ballad was the only hit some of these groups had or were among the biggest hits they produced.

I feel that Dennis knew exactly what he was doing when the power ballad was included as part of the whole Styx repetoire. It created variety and nuance to their records and to their live performances.
It also happened that he had a really incredible voice for singing those types of songs. This was NOT so true with some of the other groups I was watching today.


Just an observation.

Bugsy

I feel that Dennis knew exactly what he was doing when the power ballad was included as part of the whole Styx repetoire. It created variety and nuance to their records and to their live performances.

I agree. I just wish the power ballad would have remained a change of pace versus becoming the norm for so many bands. I think a lot of groups lost a bit of their individuality when they began overdoing the power ballad. To his credit, DDY was a bit ahead of his time with Babe.

Now, there was no way of knowing this at the time, but looking back (post hair-band era), songs like Babe, Don't Let It End, Haven't We Been Here Before, etc. sound a lot more generic than do songs like Pieces Of Eight, Grand Illusion, Borrowed Time, Sing For The Day, Snowblind, etc. (courtesy of the late 80's overdose on ballads). While I like the softer side of Styx, I don't think their slower songs have as much of that unique, classic Styx sound to them. For me personally, the inclusion of the power ballad into their arsenal cost them a bit of the identity and sound that I liked (and still like) the most.

I think it's great that Dennis is revisiting some of those songs at his shows (Castle Walls, Queen of Spades, POE), but I'd look forward to his show even more if he dug even deeper into the Styx catalog and dropped some of the hits and solo stuff from the setlist. Styx could stand to do the same with their setlist, although I tend to prefer the hits they're playing to the ones DDY is playing. Just my opinion, not meant to disrespect or insult anyone who feels otherwise.

Ahead of his time with Babe?????? What about REALLY REALLY ahead of his time with Lady??????????????????

Speaking of REALLY REALLY how about Shrekll???????

When I read that post, I thought the same thing yogi about Lady. Lady isn't a "traditional" power ballad though.. at least not in the same vein. Lady is actually a little too hard in places I think to be considered a true power ballad, but that is just my opinion.

When I think of the PowerBallad the first thing that comes to mind is "Keep On Loving You" by REO.... how ironic that Styx spent their first three post-Dennis years touring with the band that really put the POWER into the PowerBallad (take it on the run, keep on loving you, in my dreams, etc...)

So glad Tommy & JY see a need to get away from what got them where they are

I have to agree with Ash, when I hear the word "PowerBallad" the first song that I can think of is "Keep on Loving You".

I don't think "Lady" is that "hard", but yes some radio markets won't play it because they think it's too "hard" - good point.

As for "REALLY REALLY", I can't wait to see "Shrek 2" next week - LOL

Lady is actually a little too hard in places I think to be considered a true power ballad, but that is just my opinion.

I agree. I've never considered it in the same vein as Babe, Don't Let It End, or Show Me The Way. However, Lady does show up on several power ballad compilations, I've noticed.

So glad Tommy & JY see a need to get away from what got them where they are

Based on everything I've heard or read from those two lately, I'm sure they'd say the ends didn't justify the means. I really believe that if they were given the chance to do it again, Tommy and JY would settle for less commercial success in return for not compromising THEIR perception of the "Styx" sound. I'm not saying that I entirely agree with that thinking, but I sure have gotten that impression from them recently.

thats what I don't understand.

"Oh we'd have much rather have had less success and less money for the sake of our vision and be seen is rock visionaries - even if we didn't sell a thing".

Comes back to an old adage I've learned:

"When you have a choice between fame and fortune..... choose fortune."

It is apparent that they have stepped away from many things they felt were dennis' footprint on the band. They apparently feel the need to lean toward the harder stuff the band has produced over the years.

In some way, I would think that it is a form of flattery that they have stepped away from his more commercial stuff because if you can't give the song justice, just don't do it.

If they want to return, with this lineup, to the promince that the band once had, they should embrace all things that made the band successful including the ballad.

Talking about the casual fan here. Not us crazy folk who post online.

I believe that they would want/expect to here songs like Lady, Babe, Show Me The Way, etc... at a Styx concert. A lot of the songs that were popular and played on the radio/tv were Dennis' mellower works and these are the songs that a casual fan would know.

"Yes I can" tanked when released as a single........I dont agree this is what the fans want from this lineup. When you review the TS penned hits during the "classic" years you'll notice none of them were ballads.

I think most fans enjoy a couple of ballads. Can't be banging your head all night long.
I still think the AVERAGE fan wants to hear a couple of the better known tv/radio hit ballads.
It would be like Journey not playing Open Arms/Faithfully.

"Oh we'd have much rather have had less success and less money for the sake of our vision and be seen is rock visionaries - even if we didn't sell a thing".

Comes back to an old adage I've learned:

"When you have a choice between fame and fortune..... choose fortune."

True, but keep in mind that neither fame nor fortune is guaranteed to make one happy and content. Our dear boys JY and Tommy are living proof. If in fact it was the potential money and success that convinced them to go along with Babe, Kilroy, etc., then it was a poor decision. They should've stuck to their guns back in the day. They didn't. Oh well. Live and learn. Who am I to judge, anyway?

As for the adage, I would say: choose neither, do what makes you happy and brings you peace of mind.

"Yes I can" tanked when released as a single

That's true. But what single released by a classic rock band hasn't in recent years? I know there are a few exceptions, but the list of those that have tanked is so long that it's hard to really make any inferences about what fans want based on the success of singles, at least where classic rock bands are concerned.

In some way, I would think that it is a form of flattery that they have stepped away from his more commercial stuff because if you can't give the song justice, just don't do it.

I agree. I don't think the current lineup has it in them to write a slower song that comes close to the quality of Babe. And if the big three were to reunite, and work together in the same fashion as they did on Brave New World, you know what? I don't think they could touch Babe ever again, either!

classicstyxfan wrote:"Yes I can" tanked when released as a single........I dont agree this is what the fans want from this lineup. When you review the TS penned hits during the "classic" years you'll notice none of them were ballads.

Where singles chart is irrelevant. How many hit singles did Led Zeppelin have?

I have never heard anybody at a Styx concert complain, "Gee, I would really like to hear a ballad now..." It seems to me that fans like the show the way it is. If they did start playing Babe, "Don't Let It End", "Show Me the Way", etc, it would just give Dennis fans an excuse to complain some more...."Hey, Gowan is singing a song to Dennis' wife!"

Ash wrote:thats what I don't understand.

"Oh we'd have much rather have had less success and less money for the sake of our vision and be seen is rock visionaries - even if we didn't sell a thing".

Comes back to an old adage I've learned:

"When you have a choice between fame and fortune..... choose fortune."

Nice quote...who said it? Who are you paraphrasing...I ask because that is not what I remember them saying. What I remember JY saying (and I think Neal Schon would say the same thing) is if you live by the single, you die by the single. Once you have a #1 single, the lable expects a huge hit on every album...so you duplicate the formula. But, after tastes change, your formula dies and you die with it.

I think what they are saying is Styx should have avoided being cast into ANY mold...whether it be power ballad or hard rock or whatever...That gives you the freedom to do what you want. "Success" was there BEFORE Babe so, IMO, it would not have been as much of a tradeoff as you are implying...longevity and ALL of the band members being happy traded for short term success with only ONE member of the band being truly happy.

Monker wrote:Nice quote...who said it? Who are you paraphrasing...I ask because that is not what I remember them saying. What I remember JY saying (and I think Neal Schon would say the same thing) is if you live by the single, you die by the single. Once you have a #1 single, the lable expects a huge hit on every album...so you duplicate the formula. But, after tastes change, your formula dies and you die with it.

It's not a quote from anyone in the band... I was basing that in a general context. Thing is... didn't JY have his little experiment on Serpent Is Rising and Miracles - which were MUCH more rock oriented than Styx I and Styx II... and the result of that was that Styx was to be dropped and likely never heard of again. It was only when DDY's Lady from Styx II got airplay that they had a chance with a different label.

All I know is bands BEG (as Styx did) to get their songs on the radio. They Beg for years and years just to be heard. Everyone involved in Styx should be glad they had someone in the band that people wanted to listen to... because it wasn't JY that people were going to see back then... it was "that guy who sung Lady". Now that they got their songs played and got a feel for success and what people wanted to hear and used that to influence their future music - all they can do is bitch about how they lost their true selves.

The irony is... if they'd never been anything after Miracles, JY would be complaining about DDY's writing style being the reason he was never a success.

You just can't have it both ways.

I think what they are saying is Styx should have avoided being cast into ANY mold...whether it be power ballad or hard rock or whatever...That gives you the freedom to do what you want. "Success" was there BEFORE Babe so, IMO, it would not have been as much of a tradeoff as you are implying...longevity and ALL of the band members being happy traded for short term success with only ONE member of the band being truly happy.

I think there is some merit to this, but you don't keep a record contract unless you are making money for the label. Period. Even Zepplin had "Stairway To Heaven" which is to this day their most recognizable song to the "common man".

I don't see how Styx differs from any other band. Hell even Metallica followed the same formula when they released the song "One" off "And Justice For All" record and then subsequent power ballads on other albums.

Styx is really NO different from every other rock band that has ever existed.... it's just the guys in the band are now PISSED OFF about it after the fact.... and to me that just seems a bit like spitting in the faces of the fans who happen to like the music they made during that time.

Just my .02

Thing is... didn't JY have his little experiment on Serpent Is Rising and Miracles - which were MUCH more rock oriented than Styx I and Styx II... and the result of that was that Styx was to be dropped and likely never heard of again.

No. What I hear is Styx being more Progressive then rock...probably because of JC's influence. Did Dennis ballads on those albums, such as "Golden Lark", become very popular at that time, or even after "Lady" hit? Why not? It's no different then asking why JY songs (or JC's) didn't hit.

It was only when DDY's Lady from Styx II got airplay that they had a chance with a different label.

And, you can also say that it was not until Tommy joined the band that Styx became as huge as people remember. Removing JC's Progressive influences and adding Tommy's melodic rock influence moved things to a higher level...a level that they consistantly hit.

it wasn't JY that people were going to see back then... it was "that guy who sung Lady".

It was also the guy who sang "Crystal Ball". I know that for a fact.

Now that they got their songs played and got a feel for success and what people wanted to hear and used that to influence their future music - all they can do is bitch about how they lost their true selves.

That is because ONE person took over the BAND. That is a very valid complaint.

The irony is... if they'd never been anything after Miracles, JY would be complaining about DDY's writing style being the reason he was never a success.

And, the above is a fiction you design to validate your own opinions.

You do not know what JY would be thinking or saying if such things happened. It's an alternate history that will never be visited...unless you can transport yourself through a wormhole to visit alternate timelines where you can observe how things played out. If you can't do that, well, you may as well start writing a scifi novel. Actually, if you CAN do that you may want to write a scifi novel.

It makes good fiction, but don't pretend it's fact.

I think there is some merit to this, but you don't keep a record contract unless you are making money for the label. Period.

LOL! GI and PoE didn't make money for the label? Come on now...money was being made by all party's before "Babe".

Answer this...after Babe and Kilroy, how much money was being made by the label? Why would a label want a flash in the pan when it could have had years of albums like GI and PoE? Guess wringing a band out of every penny they can generate, as soon as they can generate, makes more sense.

Even Zepplin had "Stairway To Heaven" which is to this day their most recognizable song to the "common man".

And, it charted where? About the same place as "Suite Maddame Blue", maybe? Thank you for making my point...Charts mean even less today, IMO.

Just because "Babe" charted higher then "Suite Maddame Blue" (or any other song) does not mean it is the better song, or that it is more important to defining the band to its fans.

The truth is, I hardly ever hear Dennis songs on the radio...I hear mostly Tommy's and once in a while a Dennis song...and every winter I hear Snowblind. I don't remember the last time I heard "Babe" or "Don't Let It End", or "Show Me the Way"...but I don't listen to AC stations.

Styx is really NO different from every other rock band that has ever existed.... it's just the guys in the band are now PISSED OFF about it after the fact.... and to me that just seems a bit like spitting in the faces of the fans who happen to like the music they made during that time.

Except for the fact that they were NOT happy about it at the time either...evidenced by the fact that they actualy fired Dennis at one point, and the various stories of how the Kilroy tour ended.

It seems to me that Tommy and JY have not completely 'gotten along' well with Dennis for about 25yrs. There have been struggles with direction of the band, struggles about the songs, power struggles between members, even reunion struggles. The expression of their feelings is not 'after the fact'...it has been going on for a very long time...But, now that Dennis is out of the band, you have a different view on things.

"Yes I can" tanked when released as a single........

That's funny i thought it hit #26 on the charts. Not the pop charts, but it charted still the same at the audience it was aimed at.

The truth is, I hardly ever hear Dennis songs on the radio...I hear mostly Tommy's and once in a while a Dennis song...and every winter I hear Snowblind. I don't remember the last time I heard "Babe" or "Don't Let It End", or "Show Me the Way"...but I don't listen to AC stations.

I was just thinking about this not too long ago. About the only Dennis songs I hear 'round here on the classic rock stations are Grand Illusion, Come Sail Away, Suite Madame Blue, Lorelei, and Lady. I never hear anything post-GI.

ek88 wrote:[
I was just thinking about this not too long ago. About the only Dennis songs I hear 'round here on the classic rock stations are Grand Illusion, Come Sail Away, Suite Madame Blue, Lorelei, and Lady. I never hear anything post-GI.

When I am in my car I usually just listen to the radio. I have a heavy hand on that lovely scan button. I am not into any one station. More so just on songs. Either and oldy but goody or something new that catches me.
I hear some songs post GI on one of our lighter stations, but not soft light. They like to play Show Me The Way, Babe, and The Best Of Times a lot.
We have three four very excellent hard rock/classic rock stations. I combine them here because so do they. One of them plays all the great new rock of today along with all the great old rock.
Most of our harder rock stations will play Renegade, Come Sail Away and The Grand Illusion.