Jim, Jimi and Dave

RIP Frankie's Playtoy

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Postby Journey/Survivor » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:35 am

Mikele wrote:Hi , I'm a new member here at MR, and wanted to start by posting on the Survivor board, since it's clearly the most underrated band among all at this message board.

To me, and is my personal opinion, there's no Survivor without Sullivan and Droubay...I can get over a change of singer any time, but Marc is so primary for the band sound (he's also a very underrated drummer, but one of the best in rock IMO) and every time I hear THTS I realize something's missing in the groove and in the feeling. Sullivan is the trademark of Survivor: hear Live in Japan 1985, it's his guitar speaking.
Crossroad Moments had its moments, as to speak, but I can't really feel how it is recapturing the Survivor sound guys. I think it's a deja-vu from Jimi's voice. A good record, but the guitar sound and feeling is gone.


Welcome to the board, Mikele!

There's no question about it that any Survivor album is going to be much better off if Sullivan is on it. CM would have been an even better album than it was if Sullivan and Droubay were on it, just the same as Reach would have been better if Peterik had been on it.

Marc Droubay is a killer drummer! I've always felt that Droubay and Ellis were very important members of the band, and they will always be my first choice to be the rhythm section of Survivor. Although, in fairness to Gary Smith and Dennis Keith Johnson, they were also excellent fits for Survivor's early days, and are excellent players.

I agree that THTS would have been even better yet had Droubay and Ellis been on it.

One of the things that I find very disappointing about Reach is that Frankie didn't really let Droubay be Droubay on it. There are only a few songs on Reach where Droubay's drumming really jumps out at me. And Marc Droubay is way too great of a drummer to be held back like that.
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Postby Mikele » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:34 am

Journey/Survivor wrote:
Mikele wrote:Hi , I'm a new member here at MR, and wanted to start by posting on the Survivor board, since it's clearly the most underrated band among all at this message board.

To me, and is my personal opinion, there's no Survivor without Sullivan and Droubay...I can get over a change of singer any time, but Marc is so primary for the band sound (he's also a very underrated drummer, but one of the best in rock IMO) and every time I hear THTS I realize something's missing in the groove and in the feeling. Sullivan is the trademark of Survivor: hear Live in Japan 1985, it's his guitar speaking.
Crossroad Moments had its moments, as to speak, but I can't really feel how it is recapturing the Survivor sound guys. I think it's a deja-vu from Jimi's voice. A good record, but the guitar sound and feeling is gone.


Welcome to the board, Mikele!

There's no question about it that any Survivor album is going to be much better off if Sullivan is on it. CM would have been an even better album than it was if Sullivan and Droubay were on it, just the same as Reach would have been better if Peterik had been on it.

Marc Droubay is a killer drummer! I've always felt that Droubay and Ellis were very important members of the band, and they will always be my first choice to be the rhythm section of Survivor. Although, in fairness to Gary Smith and Dennis Keith Johnson, they were also excellent fits for Survivor's early days, and are excellent players.

I agree that THTS would have been even better yet had Droubay and Ellis been on it.

One of the things that I find very disappointing about Reach is that Frankie didn't really let Droubay be Droubay on it. There are only a few songs on Reach where Droubay's drumming really jumps out at me. And Marc Droubay is way too great of a drummer to be held back like that.


Yep I agree, he doesn't stand out as usual. Great to see that, at least here, his drumming is valued as it should be!
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:36 am

Joe Vana wrote:and the keys were session guys ALOT more than you think....



Joe.


Was Peterik really playing the keyboards live at Survivor concerts? Or were they pre-programed?
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Postby Joe Vana » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:45 am

Journey/Survivor wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:and the keys were session guys ALOT more than you think....



Joe.


Was Peterik really playing the keyboards live at Survivor concerts? Or were they pre-programed?


JP ALWAYS played live...NO Milli Vanilli going on....

FS was smart in getting monsters to play on the albums, WSC was amazing because ofr it...Peter Wolf and Mike Moran played ALOT of keys for Survivor...but LIVE it was JP Baby!!!

He is a good Live keyboardist....not a Paich, but quite proficient.....and at home on his Piano he is VERY good....I guess he is most comfortable there....

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Postby Tito » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:21 am

Since his name was brought up, just for clarification purposes, this isn't the same Peter Wolf from the J. Geils Band. Correct? Or is it?
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Postby Eyeof » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:56 pm

Joe Vana wrote:
Eyeof wrote:JV, I respect your insight, but I won't back down from that statement....In a perfect world, I'd obviously prefer FS in Surivor, but for the fans to enjoy the music and for good albums to be made, I'm sorry, but he's not essential. No more than Dave Bickler or JP or JJ for that matter...

Empires is as good as Reach and so is Cross Road Moments and both were made without the help of FS...right?

I'll take it one step further...If this band were to ever do ANYTHING else...It would most likey be essential that FS NOT BE A PART of it....until he gets OUT OF THE WAY...it's a dead issue...


I can respect your opinion.....BUT, IF he got out of the way in the past you would have NEVER loved the Survivor albums you did love!!!!

I am NOT looking for a war here...there are better things to war about hahahahah...

Have a good one!
JV


No worries and no war! I'm only saying, I don't understand my FS is essential, but JP, Dave etc is not...

It's obvious you know things we don't and I know from experience how hard it is to have such info and not be able to share and have to listen to uninformed opinions like ours, but this always happens...it's like a stagnant stream....grows nothing but bacteria...

But at least our love for that music, keeps us coming here...
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Postby Eyeof » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:02 pm

didn't peter wolf play on Vital Signs as well?

Why was Marc and Ellis not on THTS? Man the world has changed so much with the internet...THTS was out for about three months and I didn't even know it....
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Postby MarcelJordan » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:29 pm

Eyeof wrote:didn't peter wolf play on Vital Signs as well?

Why was Marc and Ellis not on THTS? Man the world has changed so much with the internet...THTS was out for about three months and I didn't even know it....


Marc was fired....(by .....*I'd rather not tell*)

As for Ellis, Marc was his close buddy (I gather) so....

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Postby Joe Vana » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:34 pm

Tito wrote:Since his name was brought up, just for clarification purposes, this isn't the same Peter Wolf from the J. Geils Band. Correct? Or is it?


NOOOOOO.....
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Postby Joe Vana » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:35 pm

Eyeof wrote:didn't peter wolf play on Vital Signs as well?

Why was Marc and Ellis not on THTS? Man the world has changed so much with the internet...THTS was out for about three months and I didn't even know it....


YEP...ALL over it.....Peter is the $%$.......a bad bad man......great player....
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Postby DavidWT » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:58 pm

Journey/Survivor wrote:One of the things that I find very disappointing about Reach is that Frankie didn't really let Droubay be Droubay on it. There are only a few songs on Reach where Droubay's drumming really jumps out at me. And Marc Droubay is way too great of a drummer to be held back like that.


The recording quality of the drums isn't very good, either. From the very first seconds of the title track, I could tell something wasn't quite right. On the previous albums, the drums had real power to them, but on Reach, they sounded kind of... I don't know... papery? I think some of the songs would have been better if the drums had more oomph to them.
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:26 am

DavidWT wrote:
Journey/Survivor wrote:One of the things that I find very disappointing about Reach is that Frankie didn't really let Droubay be Droubay on it. There are only a few songs on Reach where Droubay's drumming really jumps out at me. And Marc Droubay is way too great of a drummer to be held back like that.


The recording quality of the drums isn't very good, either. From the very first seconds of the title track, I could tell something wasn't quite right. On the previous albums, the drums had real power to them, but on Reach, they sounded kind of... I don't know... papery? I think some of the songs would have been better if the drums had more oomph to them.



Right. The drums sound kind of like cardboard on Reach. Which I'm sure was on the production end of things.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:48 am

I think Droubay kills it on Fire Makes Steel off Reach?
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:47 am

Here's a quote from Jim Peterik in Survivor's 1993 Greatest Hits CD, the Greatest Hits CD that had the two new songs "Hungry Years" and "You Know Who You Are" on it.
Of course, as you all know, this was released right after Survivor had reformed.


"I want to say thanks to all of our fans for hanging with us. There's a lot more really good Survivor music left. We really have something to say and we're really optimistic about the future. And this time, we're going to enjoy it a lot more."


I myself was so happy when I read that on the day that the CD was released back in June of 1993.

I'm sure that Jim meant it when he said it. If only it had turned out as planned!
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:44 pm

The new band*


Jim Peterik, guitar, keyboards, backing-vocals
Dave Bickler, lead and backing-vocals
Jimi Jamison, lead and backing-vocals
Gary Smith, drums
Stephan Ellis, bass
Joe Schmo, guitar, keyboards**


*(Hopefully)
**(currently unnamed band member)


Come on, Jim, do it for the fans!
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Postby jaxmanjoe » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:09 pm

I have to agree whole-heartedly with Joe Vana on this issue. If Frankie decides not to do anything more with the Survivor name, than the band had a good run and thats that. No combination of the other members is ever going to produce the classic Survivor sound as Frankie was integral to that. Not that the rest of the members couldn't produce some great music, but it won't be Survivor. Just listen to any of their work since Survivor. Jim Peterik has produced very different music and as much as Jim Jamison has the voice and tried to emulate what he had with Frankie it's just not at the level or near the sound of classic Survivor.

I'd rather the name Survivor be a good memory than have new music produced as Survivor without Frankie. Call it anything but Survivor. You could get a great guitarist to mimic Frankie's playing on on the old hits but no one will be able to write new Survivor songs the way he could. JP did some fantastic writing for .38 Special and Mecca but as awesome as his writing is it is drastically different from the work he did with FS.

I, too, hope the guys keep playing but my desire to hear more of the Survivor sound rests solely in the hands of FS. And I never knew this for sure until JP and FS split and started writing separately.

I wish them both well and I'll keep hoping to hear more from FS as Survivor. If I don't hear anything new, so be it. At least they gave us a great run and fantastic memories. I'll never grow tired of the old stuff.

Joe
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Postby Slander » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:47 am

jaxmanjoe wrote:I have to agree whole-heartedly with Joe Vana on this issue. If Frankie decides not to do anything more with the Survivor name, than the band had a good run and thats that. No combination of the other members is ever going to produce the classic Survivor sound as Frankie was integral to that.
Joe


Couldn't agree more with the above comments. I really liked JP and JJ's work on Crossroads Moment. Listened to it again this weekend. Good stuff but it does not sound like Survivor. It sounds like POL record with Jamison on vocals. Nothing wrong with that, but don't call it Survivor because it isn't!
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:56 am

Slander wrote:but don't call it Survivor because it isn't!



Well, they quite literally can't call it Survivor if Sullivan's not part of it. Unless Sullivan were to sell the name back to Peterik.


Obviously I will always prefer that Sullivan be the lead guitarist and co-writer for any Survivor or Survivor-related project!


But I'm suggesting a new Peterik-Jamison-Bickler band partly because Sullivan doesn't seem interested or motivated to make new music anymore.

I need my Survivor-fix, and Peterik, Jamison and Bickler could supply it. :D
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Postby MarcelJordan » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:58 am

jaxmanjoe wrote:I have to agree whole-heartedly with Joe Vana on this issue. If Frankie decides not to do anything more with the Survivor name, than the band had a good run and thats that. No combination of the other members is ever going to produce the classic Survivor sound as Frankie was integral to that. Not that the rest of the members couldn't produce some great music, but it won't be Survivor. Just listen to any of their work since Survivor. Jim Peterik has produced very different music and as much as Jim Jamison has the voice and tried to emulate what he had with Frankie it's just not at the level or near the sound of classic Survivor.

I'd rather the name Survivor be a good memory than have new music produced as Survivor without Frankie. Call it anything but Survivor. You could get a great guitarist to mimic Frankie's playing on on the old hits but no one will be able to write new Survivor songs the way he could. JP did some fantastic writing for .38 Special and Mecca but as awesome as his writing is it is drastically different from the work he did with FS.

I, too, hope the guys keep playing but my desire to hear more of the Survivor sound rests solely in the hands of FS. And I never knew this for sure until JP and FS split and started writing separately.

I wish them both well and I'll keep hoping to hear more from FS as Survivor. If I don't hear anything new, so be it. At least they gave us a great run and fantastic memories. I'll never grow tired of the old stuff.

Joe


I can agree on this without any reservation. Talking about not getting tired of the old stuff. I've been listening to hesitation dance children of the night the one that really matters caught in the game can't hold back Chevy nights somewhere in America silver girl etc man Frankie smokes!

Get this, I'm a big fan of Steely Dan, Led Zep Sly and family stone for example who are another league different prospect and I can switch back to classic Survivor (pre 86) without a an issue. That's how great Survivor was to me. My memories are intact.

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Postby Eyeof » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:33 pm

Well in my opinion "Survivor" without JP and Dave, is no more Survivor than you guys think it would be without Frankie...

How in the world is Survivor with McAuley, more of 'Survivor' than JP, Dave, Ellis and Marc would be? That's insane...sorry...
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:56 pm

Eyeof wrote:Well in my opinion "Survivor" without JP and Dave, is no more Survivor than you guys think it would be without Frankie...

How in the world is Survivor with McAuley, more of 'Survivor' than JP, Dave, Ellis and Marc would be? That's insane...sorry...


Eyeof.

I sent you a couple of PM's over the last few days. Did you get them?
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Postby MarcelJordan » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:47 pm

Eyeof wrote:Well in my opinion "Survivor" without JP and Dave, is no more Survivor than you guys think it would be without Frankie...

How in the world is Survivor with McAuley, more of 'Survivor' than JP, Dave, Ellis and Marc would be? That's insane...sorry...


I think to be realistic, we need to take Marc out of the mix if there is no Frankie. MD and FS are like two warriors in the same team.
:wink:

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Postby DavidWT » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:50 pm

Slander wrote:Couldn't agree more with the above comments. I really liked JP and JJ's work on Crossroads Moment. Listened to it again this weekend. Good stuff but it does not sound like Survivor. It sounds like POL record with Jamison on vocals. Nothing wrong with that, but don't call it Survivor because it isn't!


But couldn't the same thing basically be said about most of "Reach"?

Actually, taking it a step further, what exactly IS the Survivor sound? It changed pretty drastically even while FS and JP were in it together. "Vital Signs" and "When Seconds Count" are pretty drastic departures from the stuff on the early Bickler albums. Songs like "How Much Love" and "Is This Love" would have been completely out of place on Survivor's first three albums.

To me, Crossroads Moment mostly sounds like a natural continuation of the sound they had on VS and WSC. "Reach", on the other hand, kind of takes things in a different direction, with some more acoustic stuff. Neither CM or Reach sounds like early Survivor.
I'm certainly not faulting the band for evolving its sound, I'm just not quite sure how we're defining the Survivor "sound," and so it's hard to say who is the most integral to it.
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Postby Greg » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:22 am

jaxmanjoe wrote:I have to agree whole-heartedly with Joe Vana on this issue. If Frankie decides not to do anything more with the Survivor name, than the band had a good run and thats that. No combination of the other members is ever going to produce the classic Survivor sound as Frankie was integral to that. Not that the rest of the members couldn't produce some great music, but it won't be Survivor. Just listen to any of their work since Survivor. Jim Peterik has produced very different music and as much as Jim Jamison has the voice and tried to emulate what he had with Frankie it's just not at the level or near the sound of classic Survivor.

I'd rather the name Survivor be a good memory than have new music produced as Survivor without Frankie. Call it anything but Survivor. You could get a great guitarist to mimic Frankie's playing on on the old hits but no one will be able to write new Survivor songs the way he could. JP did some fantastic writing for .38 Special and Mecca but as awesome as his writing is it is drastically different from the work he did with FS.

I, too, hope the guys keep playing but my desire to hear more of the Survivor sound rests solely in the hands of FS. And I never knew this for sure until JP and FS split and started writing separately.

I wish them both well and I'll keep hoping to hear more from FS as Survivor. If I don't hear anything new, so be it. At least they gave us a great run and fantastic memories. I'll never grow tired of the old stuff.

Joe


Sounds like the same argument Steve Perry made when he and Journey cut ties.
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Postby Greg » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:25 am

All I know is, we have heard absolutely nothing from Survivor in a long time it seems.

JV: I'm patiently waiting for that new Mecca album dude! I think I'm wearing out the last CD! :lol:
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Postby Slander » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:09 am

[quote="Greg"]All I know is, we have heard absolutely nothing from Survivor in a long time it seems.
/quote]

and it doesn't appear there will be a re-union of the original members. Check out this interview with FS back in May:

http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/sagi ... to_mo.html
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:04 am

DavidWT wrote:
Slander wrote:Couldn't agree more with the above comments. I really liked JP and JJ's work on Crossroads Moment. Listened to it again this weekend. Good stuff but it does not sound like Survivor. It sounds like POL record with Jamison on vocals. Nothing wrong with that, but don't call it Survivor because it isn't!


But couldn't the same thing basically be said about most of "Reach"?

Actually, taking it a step further, what exactly IS the Survivor sound? It changed pretty drastically even while FS and JP were in it together. "Vital Signs" and "When Seconds Count" are pretty drastic departures from the stuff on the early Bickler albums. Songs like "How Much Love" and "Is This Love" would have been completely out of place on Survivor's first three albums.



I was going to say the same, myself.

To my ears, only "Fire Makes Steel" and "Reach" sound like what I consider to be vintage Survivor, as far as the Reach album is concerned. And "Fire Makes Steel" was co-written by Peterik.

Like you said, Vital Signs and When Seconds Count are drastically different style albums than Survivor's first 4 albums.

As for Crossroads Moment, "Behind The Music" sounds like vintage Survivor. It sounds like a cross between "It's The Singer Not The Song" and "I Can't Hold Back." And "Love The World Away" Sounds similar to "Didn't Know It Was Love" and even to a lesser degree, lyrically, like "Silver Girl."

And from the Extra Moments CD, "Dream Higher" sounds a lot like "Caught In The Game."
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Postby Joe Vana » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:45 pm

Greg wrote:All I know is, we have heard absolutely nothing from Survivor in a long time it seems.

JV: I'm patiently waiting for that new Mecca album dude! I think I'm wearing out the last CD! :lol:


PM me....I can send u a few cuts.....it is done!
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Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:54 pm

Joe Vana wrote:
Greg wrote:All I know is, we have heard absolutely nothing from Survivor in a long time it seems.

JV: I'm patiently waiting for that new Mecca album dude! I think I'm wearing out the last CD! :lol:


PM me....I can send u a few cuts.....it is done!
JV


Joe.

Do you know that Survivor's Wikipedia page still lists Frankie Sullivan as having produced Mecca II?
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Postby Joe Vana » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:39 pm

Journey/Survivor wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:
Greg wrote:All I know is, we have heard absolutely nothing from Survivor in a long time it seems.

JV: I'm patiently waiting for that new Mecca album dude! I think I'm wearing out the last CD! :lol:


PM me....I can send u a few cuts.....it is done!
JV


Joe.

Do you know that Survivor's Wikipedia page still lists Frankie Sullivan as having produced Mecca II?


He WAS there alot in the beginning....but bowed out to work on their stuff that hasn't the light of day...yet.....
ALL the stuff he worked on with me was recut, so unfortunately nothing FS was there for made the final album.....

Thanks for letting me know!!! BUT, the producers on Mecca II are Joe Vana, Mark Alano and Chuck Macak.

Thanks again!!
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