OT-Gas in Europe $9

[SteveForever]

[
The 25% number is the major problem. People need to drive less and drive slower. My family is already probably not going on vacation this year. Both sides of our family live out of state, so the vacationing is usually not recreational but to visit loved ones.

I've been driving slower (though still over the speed limit, for the most part ) and using my cruise control much more and I can get somewhere between 30-40 additional miles per tank.

Do you love them more now that gas is higher?
The good old days for Americans are mostly over I think...

[RedWingFan]

The government can create whatever control they want by voting for it. If it was put to a populous vote, I'm sure the american public, out of spite, would go for an isolation period.

Uh, last I checked we had a bill of rights and a constitution that protects private enterprise to do business and protect it from government. What do you suppose we do with those documents?

while you might say isolationism isn't the answer, what is? The status quo?

The market will determine what the answer is. It always does.

He lead by example on that issue in the wrong direction.

Solar panals with todays technology are horribly ineffecient and in most cases not worth the cost. Solar Panals in the 70's were a complete waste. Other than making one feel good about themselves.

Car companies concerned about their future profits quashed electric cars.

I work in the auto industry (Michigan of course) and that statement is complete crap. Just a few years ago the "break even" point on the cost of a Toyota Prius was 140,000 miles @ approx. $2.80 a gallon. That means to drive a Prius over a comparable IC engine, to break even on your initial purchase, you had to hit 140,000 miles on your odometer. Now of course, with gas @ $4.00 a gallon that #'s come way down. See how the market works?
Bottom line is, eventually cars will be produced that run on salt (ocean) water. It's coming. I was talking to a guy who was installing my kitchen cabinets and he's had a couple of his vehicles running on it.

[RedWingFan]

PS: I'm a NY'er, lived in Vegas now live in Cali. Never lived in Penn.

Yeah, wasn't sure. Thought I remembered you being from the Northeast somewhere.

[Tito]

Nuclear sucks.
Once the ore runs out you have to switch over to plutonium.
No thanks.

If not nuclear, then what do you want us to use?

[Tito]

No, because the price wouldn't be affecting the vast majority of the populations wallets and subsequently the economy as a whole, in an unreasonable manner like it is now. There is a line and it has been crossed. What you guys seem to be saying is there should never be a line. Sorry, but that's unreasonable.

I'm not against reasonable profit for the oil companies. I'm against the obscene record breaking profits at the expense of the masses. If the masses had a choice, there would be fair competition and they could charge whatever they wanted without issue. There would be risk on their part that they would lose their customer base. With oil, there is no risk of that whatsoever. None. That's a monopoly and monopolies are illegal for a reason.

You're not listening. The price of oil is determined MOSTLY by supply and demand. Current worldwide demand for oil is higher than the supply. This is mostly because of the rapid rise in demand from Indian and, to a greater extent, China. Until we find a way to increase our domestic supply, the price is not going to go down very much for very long. That's why the government needs to step out of the way and allow exploration.

The weak dollar plays a major role in this too.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If not nuclear, then what do you want us to use?

Wind, Geothermal, Solar, Tidal...etc.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Uh, last I checked we had a bill of rights and a constitution that protects private enterprise to do business and protect it from government. What do you suppose we do with those documents?

words to remember -

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country" - Thomas Jefferson, 1816

[conversationpc]

If not nuclear, then what do you want us to use?

Wind, Geothermal, Solar, Tidal...etc.

From what I've heard, wind-generated power would only be a do-able solution for just a few areas of the country. However, I'm not opposed to localized solutions if the technology is there.

[Tito]

If not nuclear, then what do you want us to use?

Wind, Geothermal, Solar, Tidal...etc.

That's fine, that will help, but only so much. Couple all that with nuclear, clean coal, and other exploration (not ANWR though, I will agree with you on that one). One more thing, get rid of ethanol, at least until they find away to make that more efficient.

[RedWingFan]

Uh, last I checked we had a bill of rights and a constitution that protects private enterprise to do business and protect it from government. What do you suppose we do with those documents?

words to remember -

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country" - Thomas Jefferson, 1816

Is this part of the B.O.R. or Declaration, the Constitution? You're not suggesting we should be governed by any one mans thoughts or words are you?

[RedWingFan]

If not nuclear, then what do you want us to use?

Wind, Geothermal, Solar, Tidal...etc.

From what I've heard, wind-generated power would only be a do-able solution for just a few areas of the country. However, I'm not opposed to localized solutions if the technology is there.

And remember, it's NOT do-able if a Kennedy can see the eyesore from their compound.

[AlteredDNA]

Uh, last I checked we had a bill of rights and a constitution that protects private enterprise to do business and protect it from government. What do you suppose we do with those documents?

words to remember -

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country" - Thomas Jefferson, 1816

Jefferson, while brilliant, also felt the need for Revolution every generation or so. I'm all for a good house-cleaning now and then, but he was a bit extreme at times.

Also, are you propounding that the oil companies are breaking laws?

[Tito]

Actually, government is already the problem:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23069.html

[The_Noble_Cause]

Is this part of the B.O.R. or Declaration, the Constitution? You're not suggesting we should be governed by any one mans thoughts or words are you?

I didn't say that, but the Constitution is not the sine qua non of American governance, either.
If that was the case, a black man would still only be 3/5 of a person.
It is a living document.

[conversationpc]

From what I've heard, wind-generated power would only be a do-able solution for just a few areas of the country. However, I'm not opposed to localized solutions if the technology is there.

And remember, it's NOT do-able if a Kennedy can see the eyesore from their compound.

[conversationpc]

Is this part of the B.O.R. or Declaration, the Constitution? You're not suggesting we should be governed by any one mans thoughts or words are you?

I didn't say that, but the Constitution is not the sine qua non of American governance, either.
If that was the case, a black man would still only be 3/5 of a person.
It is a living document.

You do realize the 3/5 of a person thing was instituted to eventually assist in abolishing slavery, don't you?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Just curious... Why do you think nuclear energy sucks?

Two more things....

There is the problem of storing the waste, and every single plant worldwide is subsizidized because no private investors are willing to shoulder the costs/risks.

[RedWingFan]

Is this part of the B.O.R. or Declaration, the Constitution? You're not suggesting we should be governed by any one mans thoughts or words are you?

I didn't say that, but the Constitution is not the sine qua non of American governance, either.
If that was the case, a black man would still only be 3/5 of a person.
It is a living document.

If by "living document" you mean the amendment process. I agree. If you mean playdough for Supreme Court Justices then hell no!

[AlteredDNA]

Is this part of the B.O.R. or Declaration, the Constitution? You're not suggesting we should be governed by any one mans thoughts or words are you?

I didn't say that, but the Constitution is not the sine qua non of American governance, either.
If that was the case, a black man would still only be 3/5 of a person.
It is a living document.

Actually, the fact that mechanisms for the Constitution to be a "living document" are built right into it, DOES keep it from being dispensable...

[conversationpc]

Is this part of the B.O.R. or Declaration, the Constitution? You're not suggesting we should be governed by any one mans thoughts or words are you?

I didn't say that, but the Constitution is not the sine qua non of American governance, either.
If that was the case, a black man would still only be 3/5 of a person.
It is a living document.

If by "living document" you mean the amendment process. I agree. If you mean playdough for Supreme Court Justices then hell no!

The Constitution was meant to be interpreted as the framers originally intended it to be, not some "breathing" document that changes as the culture does or as the whims of our citizens dictate. That would basically make the Constitution subject to mob rule. I don't think anyone wants that.

[Tito]

The Constitution was meant to be interpreted as the framers originally intended it to be, not some "breathing" document that changes as the culture does or as the whims of our citizens dictate. That would basically make the Constitution subject to mob rule. I don't think anyone wants that.

Unfortunately, some do. Look at the defecit, the government has already disregarded the constitution.

[Rick]

The Constitution was meant to be interpreted as the framers originally intended it to be, not some "breathing" document that changes as the culture does or as the whims of our citizens dictate. That would basically make the Constitution subject to mob rule. I don't think anyone wants that.

Unfortunately, some do. Look at the defecit, the government has already disregarded the constitution.

They totally disregarded the Bill of Rights when they enacted the Patriot Act.

[classicstyxfan]

Interesting discussion so far......here are some thoughts on the bigger picture.

So The Automobile is what, 100 years old ? and I've read that many scientists believe we have used up close to, if not more of the worlds fossil fuel in that brief amount of time, demand continues to grow,much due to India and China's growing thirst for oil, and supply continues to shrink. Folks, the prices for this scarce resource aren't going to go down, rather they will continue go up.

I hope the next president has the balls ( sorry Hillary ) to lead us through the tough years to come by creation of what is sure to be an unpopular national energy policy. Including ADDITIONAL taxes on Fuel, the proceeds going to help subsidize The prices faced by Truckers, which would help control overall inflation of prices. He'll need to appeal to the public to make sacrifices in their quality of life to help us reduce consumption until REAL alternatives to Fossil Fuels are in place......I'd also like to see taxation of the oil companies directly tied to the amount of resources ( ie record profits ) devoted to development of alternate energy sources. Also cutting a similar deal with the auto industry to deliver vehicles that dont depend on fossil fuels. The President should tie all of this to a timetable similar to what JFK did with putting a man on the moon.

Sadly, I fear none of the candidates have any intention of really dealing with this problem......the person who had a great opportunity to do so ( GWB ) Iin his 2nd term was more interested in his war than in taking a courageous stand and get us started down the difficult path that lies ahead.

Imagine the impact of the US reducing its consumption by 20 percent on the marketplace. It would require the turning down of thermostadts in the winter, more efficient vehicles that get 50 percent more miles to the gallon or dont rely on fossil fuels at all, expansion of mass transit alternatives, etc.

In the past, the american people made amazing sacrifices for the good of the country ( like rationing of resources in WWII) I think we all need to change our beliefs that we are entitled to a completely cushy life to help insure that the US remains a superpower in the decades to come.

thoughts ?

[Rick]

As I've only half-assed been watching this thread, I have yet to see anyone touting Hydrogen. That's an inexhaustible element that can do the job.