Why Steve Smith will never return to Journey

[Monker]

...despite all that...it was still entirely Perry's fault?

YES. He took on the producers role. HE top decision maker in the band. If he is going to take on that title, he needs to take responsibility for the role.

[Monker]

Prior to ROR, I felt Journey was on another plane than those bands. VH, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, etc did fine in the next 10 year period, however, "continuing in a decade" was meant to refer specifically to the 80s.

Whoever Herbie picked.

They WERE on another plane. How many of those other bands (Styx, Foreigner, etc) had two albums sell as well as Escape and Frontiers, HUGE record setting tours. Yeah, Journey was just like The Tubes. That's laughable.

[Monker]

But Journey's album sales had dropped from 9 million in 1981...to 7 million in 83

I bet Columbia was crying over that one, "Oh, no! Journey only sold 7 million units? Drop their contract!"

....to 2.5 million in '86[/quote

If the album had not sucked, it would have done better.

grunge backlash against melodic rock in 90-91...

How ignorant. Grunge was a backlash against glam rock. Melodic Rock was something completely different.

Plus they'd already made it to the top. And Schon and Cain were enjoying success outside the band. So where was the motivation back then?

The motivation should have been Herbie taking no name bands and getting them to the top of the charts. With Herbie leading the band, instead of Perry, there would be no limitations to what could have happened.

[Monker]

Whoever Herbie picked.

He picked Fleischmann in 1977...so I wouldn't say that his judgement is infallible, NMT.

...who wrote Journey's first radio hit, "Wheel In the Sky". So, what is your point?

[Matthew]

Monker - first you say this....

The simple fact is: Neal's "outside projects" did not affect Journey AT ALL.

Then you follow it up with this...which was my original point!

That is why Neal should 'rue the day'...in many ways, HE opened the door for ST and then ROR.

Make your mind up....

[Matthew]

Give it a rest. Foreigner lost Lou Gramm.Styx lost Tommy and then Tommy came back and they lost Dennis. Who gives a damn about The Tubes? Asia started losing members of the band after their first album. How many people have been in and out of Kansas over the y ears?.

NONE of these examples are comparable to a Journey that had continued on after ROR - none.

I'm totally confused about the point you're trying to make here. And aren't you usually saying Perry was entirely replaceable?

Then you are saying Journey should have broke up after Escape, or maybe Frontiers....because ROR was NOT the 'top' of anything.

I love how you are so damning about the ROR era being such a failure when you've spent the last decade defending the sorry state of affairs we had during the Augeri years. No, the album sales didn't reflect a band still at the top - but the tour was as successful as any tour they'd done previously and they had four hit singles. They were still one of the biggest bands in America.

Which was not a true statement...because those bands you mention above would have been OPENING for Journey...up until after the DL tour.

But the main reason you think of those bands being an opening act is because they didn't know when to quit and they ploughed on with diminishing returns and their status went down the plug-hole. Would Foreigner really have been an opening act for Journey in 1984 when Agent Provocateur was released? I don't think so. Or even when Foreigner released Inside Information in 1988? Again - unlikely.

My point was that the music industry changed in 1990 and only about three bands - Aersosmith, Bon Jovi and Van Halen - survived. Would Journey have been one of them? Maybe - but the odds were stacked against them - especially given how uncool Journey were and how closely they were identified with REO, Foreigner and Styx - who all peaked commercially at the same time in 1981.

[Matthew]

...despite all that...it was still entirely Perry's fault?

YES. He took on the producers role. HE top decision maker in the band. If he is going to take on that title, he needs to take responsibility for the role.

And I repeat - he has never shirked his responsibility.

[Matthew]

How ignorant. Grunge was a backlash against glam rock. Melodic Rock was something completely different.

What do you mean? Look up 'melodic rock' in any music reference site and you'll see that everyone agrees it's mainstream popularity started to wane in 1990. To say that AOR bands weren't affected by grunge/alternative is verging on the idiotic, Monker.

[Matthew]

Whoever Herbie picked.

He picked Fleischmann in 1977...so I wouldn't say that his judgement is infallible, NMT.

...who wrote Journey's first radio hit, "Wheel In the Sky". So, what is your point?

Fleischmann wasn't hired to be a songwriter in the shadows, was he? He was hired to be the frontman and lead vocalist. And this proved to be a mistake.

The motivation should have been Herbie taking no name bands and getting them to the top of the charts. With Herbie leading the band, instead of Perry, there would be no limitations to what could have happened.

But that was the motivation for Herbert in 1977...and he succeeded in getting this no name band to the top. We're talking about the late 80s when the main issue was how to manage the decline.

As for the starry-eyed, cultish comment about "no limitations"...well, Journey album sales dipped between 1981 and 1983 under Herbert's watch. Was that ALL Perry's fault too?

Also - had Perry not been such a competitive egomaniac then I seriously doubt Journey would have produced such great music. The dynamic - however fucked up it was - clearly worked because they became the biggest band in America for a while.

Yet here he have the endlessly malcontent fan base saying that being the biggest band in America wasn't enough! That - unbelievably - the success didn't last forever!

God...that's more than enough arguing for one day.

[Marc S]

Monker wrote:
How ignorant. Grunge was a backlash against glam rock. Melodic Rock was something completely different.

Matthew wrote:
What do you mean? Look up 'melodic rock' in any music reference site and you'll see that everyone agrees it's mainstream popularity started to wane in 1990. To say that AOR bands weren't affected by grunge/alternative is verging on the idiotic, Monker.

Got to agree totally Matt. There was even an interview with Ritchie Zito who produced the first Bad English album who said without a shadow of a doubt Grunge was a backlash against the broadest 'Melodic Rock' and that includes any 'Hair' rock band from Crue to Journey - Anything that was well executed, polished and produced was deemed old hat overnight. To say it was just against 'Glam Rock', which in fairness died in the mid-late 70s after Bolan's death is just plain wrong. We did our first album in 1993, Burn - So Far, So Bad', very straight ahead bluesy rock, which got a 100% 5K review in Kerrang (a powerful mag at the time) and only really sold as an 'underground' release! Even the mighty Bon Jovi struggled after the early 90s and basically had to get their hair cut and look less 'mainstream melodic' to make the comeback with Faith.

[NoMoreTails]

Whoever Herbie picked.

He picked Fleischmann in 1977...so I wouldn't say that his judgement is infallible, NMT.

and fired him to bring in your do-no-wrong hero...

What's with the eye-roll? Because I dared to suggest that Herbert's decision making wasn't absolutely perfect at all times? Are you a fanatic about him too?

I don't know of any mistakes Herbie made other than loosing control to Perry, but NS and JC are to blame, not HH. Hiring RF was instrumental in laying the foundation for Infinity, he may have worked out fine if something better vocally hadn't come along. As for fanaticism, I've been plenty vocal in my criticism of NS's handling of Journey business over the last year or so, further back than that in regards to lack of new material and reliance on the greatest hits. You on the other hand can not allow any criticism of SP, even in situations where he himself has admitted responsibility. Your fawning loonism is expected from Perry's female contingency but is really flamingly creepy coming from a guy.

[Matthew]

I don't know of any mistakes Herbie made other than loosing control to Perry

Well, that's two big mistakes. One to hire a singer who wasn't attracting a new fan base. The other to hand over the power to the guy who replaced him. I'm not blind to how crucially important Herbert was to the success of this band but equally there was no total guarantee that his leadership would have carried Journey into the 1990s on some kind of wave of triumph like you and Monker make out.

Hiring RF was instrumental in laying the foundation for Infinity

He co-wrote three songs. Let's not get carried away.

, he may have worked out fine if something better vocally hadn't come along.

Well, it was absolutely obvious within eight months to everyone involved that it wasn't working out. Amazing that thirty years on you on the other hand still think otherwise....

As for fanaticism, I've been plenty vocal in my criticism of NS's handling of Journey business over the last year or so, further back than that in regards to lack of new material and reliance on the greatest hits. You on the other hand can not allow any criticism of SP, even in situations where he himself has admitted responsibility. Your fawning loonism is expected from Perry's female contingency but is really flamingly creepy coming from a guy.

This is either written out of ignorance or is just an outright lie, NMT. You want to know what is flamingly creepy? Your obsessive bitterrness toward the guy and those who support him. I'd say that since I've been at this site about 80% of your posts are Perry-related and are invariably snide and chippy. You're like that Yak character. Loon this loon that blah blah week after week. Get over it, for God's sake. Especially given that the Loons were right all along and virtually everyone now is calling into question the choices the band have made since '98.

Sure, I'll chime in when I see Perry getting the entire blame for things or if he's unreasonably put down to make other band members seem like nicer, more talented people than they are....and I've always thought Journey are essentially fucked without him. But I've also criticised him for the arrogance he displayed about TBF publicity and tour.....his unbelievably low output and the disappointing quality of the work he did do since ROR....his over-dependence on his mother for strength and ambition....his rather manipulative relationship with his fans in the last decade....and do you want me to go on?

[NoMoreTails]

Well, that's two big mistakes. One to hire a singer who the fan base didn't accept.

That fan base didn't accept Perry either...had to build a new, bigger one.

He co-wrote three songs. Let's not get carried away.

Yeah, his contribution to 1/3 of the material from one of Journeys three best albums was throw away filler...no classics like Happy To Give or Positive Touch.

But I've also criticised him for the arrogance he displayed about TBF publicity and tour.....his unbelievably low output since the mid-80s and the disappointing quality of his work since ROR....his over-dependence on his mother re: strength and ambition....his rather manipulative relationship with his fans in the last decade....and do you want me to go on?

Yeah, keep going, its good to hear this out of you, I must have missed it before.

[Matthew]

That fan base didn't accept Perry either...had to build a new, bigger one.

You're absolutely right, NMT. That's why I went back and changed the phrasing...

Yeah, his contribution to 1/3 of the material from one of Journeys three best albums was throw away filler...no classics like Happy To Give or Positive Touch.

If Happy To Give and Positive Touch were the only two songs Perry wrote then you might have a point....

Yeah, keep going, its good to hear this out of you, I must have missed it before.

Well, I'm kind of ambivalent about Perry's egomania during the band's peak...all the separate limos and diva strops and rudeness to little boys with autograph books...and so on. I think this is all the flip-side of his genius...that were he a model professional and a Steady Eddie Journey just wouldn't have that special quality about them which came from all the conflict and tension. But I won't deny for a second that Perry was an egomaniac and wildly controlling. I just love the work they all did at that time so I'm all for whatever it took to pull it off.

However, his preciousness and perfectionism became less easy to defend as the years went on...because it effectively killed his creativity and his willingness to take risks in the end. What else? I fucking hate the red blouse he wears on the video of LTS. What a poof. And there are some songs in the early days when his voice is too shrill and grating - and his improvisations are too elaborate. Also- it was a mistake to put Once You Love Somebody on ROR....or to use those horrible synthetic pan-pipes on the Against The Wall sessions....

Will this do for now?

[NoMoreTails]

If Happy To Give and Positive Touch were the only two songs Perry wrote then you might have a point....
.

This was aimed at the "quality" of the beloved ROR vs the quality of RF's contribution to Infinity, not so much SP vs RF (as Cain probably wrote the sappy lyrics anyway).

And there are some songs in the early days when his voice is too shrill and grating - and his improvisations are too elaborate.

I'm glad to see a loon remark about Perry's overindulgence in catterwalling (sp?) at times, I've meant to bring that up when NS has been criticized by some for jamming in excess. What Perry was doing was amazing, but a bit too much at times. We have found common ground once again, but will undoubted disagree at least that 80% of the time.

[Matthew]

[This was aimed at the "quality" of the beloved ROR vs the quality of RF's contribution to Infinity, not so much SP vs RF (as Cain probably wrote the sappy lyrics anyway).

I actually like Fleischmann...and the songs he contributed to on Infinity. I like his solo album from '79 too and his completely insane vocals on the Vinne Vincent Invasion record too. But Positive Touch can't be denied either. One of the truly outstanding Journey moments. Red knows the score on this too.

I'm glad to see a loon remark about Perry's overindulgence in catterwalling (sp?) at times, I've meant to bring that up when NS has been criticized by some for jamming in excess. What Perry was doing was amazing, but a bit too much at times. We have found common ground once again, but will undoubted disagree at least that 80% of the time.

This is one of the reasons I love Journey's mid-80s period so much. Perry's voice was more fuller and lower - and the melodies are sung in a more constrained and powerful way. And Schon's solos were still brief and every note counted - and they were like mini-songs in themselves. Even though they couldn't stand each other at that time ROR is one of the real highlights of the Perry/Schon partnership.

But early Perry and late period Schon...yes, there's definitely a feeling of , 'oh get on with it', isn't there?

[NoMoreTails]

But early Perry and late period Schon...yes, there's definitely a feeling of , 'oh get on with it', isn't there?

I like Schon's more recent work and feel that he continues to improve overall, concerning his Journey output, I just wish there was more of it .

[conversationpc]

But Positive Touch can't be denied either. One of the truly outstanding Journey moments. Red knows the score on this too.

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

But early Perry and late period Schon...yes, there's definitely a feeling of , 'oh get on with it', isn't there?

Yep.

[Matthew]

But early Perry and late period Schon...yes, there's definitely a feeling of , 'oh get on with it', isn't there?

I like Schon's more recent work and feel that he continues to improve overall, concerning his Journey output, I just wish there was more of it .

I think the shredding and theatrics can be amazing to hear live - but my feeling was that he overdoes it and has lost some of his sense of fiocus and melody. You can tell he hasn't been working with a lead singer who gets what he does but who intimidates him as well....for far too long now.

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

[conversationpc]

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

The only thing Schenker seems to be interested in is making enough money to get the next drink, unfortunately.

[amaron]

My dislike of Perry has lessened over the past year but I still can't believe that one of the greatest voices in rock on numerous occasions has left his fans without ANYTHING for years upon years.

It's his right, but I don't have to like him because of it.

[NealIsGod]

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

The only thing Schenker seems to be interested in is making enough money to get the next drink, unfortunately.

Yeah, he makes Eddie VH look like Michael Sweet.

[Matthew]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

[Matthew]

My dislike of Perry has lessened over the past year but I still can't believe that one of the greatest voices in rock on numerous occasions has left his fans without ANYTHING for years upon years.

It's his right, but I don't have to like him because of it.

Ten albums not ebnough for you, Amaron? Or is it eleven? Double-figures...anyway...

[amaron]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

I'll back you up.

I love the guitar solo, the sax solo, and Perry's vocals after that.

[amaron]

My dislike of Perry has lessened over the past year but I still can't believe that one of the greatest voices in rock on numerous occasions has left his fans without ANYTHING for years upon years.

It's his right, but I don't have to like him because of it.

Ten albums not ebnough for you, Amaron? Or is it eleven? Double-figures...anyway...

From 1986-2007 Steve Perry has given his fans 10 albums?

FTLOSM
Trial By Fire
GH+5

That's 3. In 21 years.

I'm sorry if I don't consider the David Pack 'contribution' worthwhile.

[conversationpc]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

I'll back you up.

I love the guitar solo, the sax solo, and Perry's vocals after that.

So do I but it would have been much more at home on a Perry solo album.

[Matthew]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

I'll back you up.

I love the guitar solo, the sax solo, and Perry's vocals after that.

Cheers Amaron. Good to have someone with some taste and discernment in this thread at long last.

[conversationpc]

My dislike of Perry has lessened over the past year but I still can't believe that one of the greatest voices in rock on numerous occasions has left his fans without ANYTHING for years upon years.

It's his right, but I don't have to like him because of it.

Ten albums not ebnough for you, Amaron? Or is it eleven? Double-figures...anyway...

From 1986-2007 Steve Perry has given his fans 10 albums?

FTLOSM
Trial By Fire
GH+5

That's 3. In 21 years.

I'm sorry if I don't consider the David Pack 'contribution' worthwhile.

And one of those three had mostly re-packaged material on it.

[amaron]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

I'll back you up.

I love the guitar solo, the sax solo, and Perry's vocals after that.

So do I but it would have been much more at home on a Perry solo album.

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?