OT: Dean's Avatar

[tj]

If everyone was to have healthcare, then the country could save millions and millions because preventative medicine will save dollars instead of having to deal with a problem that has gotten out of hand because the patient never had a chance to deal with the problem in the infancy stages.

By the way, young people would rather gamble their money instead of having health insurance? Ask my boys T + W if they want to go to Vegas or get Trev's heart fixed.

Every legal citzen in this country should have healthcare.It should not be a profit based care.I was in the hospital last year and they charged $15.00 for two Advil I could go in Walmart and buy 400 for $6.95.What the fuck.My mom had open heart surgery 3 years ago ,they charge $80,000. and she had a heart attack 10 days later.there was no fucking refund.I have a fucking $800.00 deductable I have to pay that money out of pocket before they pay shit.Clinton had a good plan, but the insurance companies bought out the politicians,I will happen again.Them whores

The $15 Advil and $80,000 surgery are in great part driven by liability insurance. Drs. have two huge concerns on this front: 1) They have to pay enourmous premiums for malpractice insurance so they have to charge huge fees to pay for it and 2) they order sometimes dozens of tests to confirm or deny their intial diagnosis so that when they get sued, they have data to back it up. If a test is available and the Dr. doesn't order it, the patient's attorney will claim negligence on the part of the Dr.

Additionally, Drs. go to school for more than a dozen years - full time - after high school to be able to practice. Most end up with several hundred thousand dollars in student loans just to pay for school and living expenses for those years. Med school is all consuming and doesn't allow time for a part time or full time job. Add to that the malpractice insurance, additional expenses of running an office (filing insurance claims, etc.) and it takes a lot of time and money to get back in the black. Anyone who takes 12 years off work to go to school is going to either have to make a lot of money each year or take decades to pay it back (or both).

[Natalie]

I was in the hospital last year and they charged $15.00 for two Advil I could go in Walmart and buy 400 for $6.95.What the fuck.

Well, you have to understand, when you are in the hospital, you are not just paying for the Advil-you are paying for the nurse to assess your level of pain, assess which pain med would be most appropriate for you-since your doctor probably has about six different meds ordered to avoid multiple phone calls-then the nurse administers the med, assesses for effectiveness and any side effects or significant reaction. It goes beyond just paying for the pills.

[stevew2]

I was in the hospital last year and they charged $15.00 for two Advil I could go in Walmart and buy 400 for $6.95.What the fuck.

Well, you have to understand, when you are in the hospital, you are not just paying for the Advil-you are paying for the nurse to assess your level of pain, assess which pain med would be most appropriate for you-since your doctor probably has about six different meds ordered to avoid multiple phone calls-then the nurse administers the med, assesses for effectiveness and any side effects or significant reaction. It goes beyond just paying for the pills.

Okay, can you be my nurse Id pay you $30.00 {serious that was just for the meds}

[Rockindeano]

A couple points.

Hillary's first attempt at National Health care was doomed because of a divided Congress.

Fast forward to now. Hillary becomes president, gets a more staunch Democratic Congress, which both will happen, and deals with Govt Health with competence, not buffoonery like Bush. He couldn't tell you where Walter Reed is for Christs sake.

I for one thinks for sure this will happen.

[stevew2]

Me too,I will have to go in debt to pay my fucking deductable {$800.00} before my insurance will pay a fucking cent.Lord know what you and Lulu will have to pay.thats fucked up

[Rockindeano]

Me too,I will have to go in debt to pay my fucking deductable {$800.00} before my insurance will pay a fucking cent.Lord know what you and Lulu will have to pay.thats fucked up

Well, we have insurance and the costs for the births and procedures are well over 100,000 dollars. I can see paying a doctor to do a heart surgery, but can't see how a bed costs 2500 dollars a day for a nurse to come in and give you a fucking aspirin. Give me a break.

[Marc S]

Really interesting debate. We've had 'free' healthcare since the early 50s. A brave and forward looking Labour government nationalised everything and created arguably the best healthcare system in the world, based on a National insurance levy paid by all workers.

So much so, the Conservatives under Thatcher in the 80s tried their best to privatise it along the lines of US models, thank fuck the unions and the population stopped her dead. Only upper management in rip-off large corps have private healthcare as job sweeteners.

Since then the Cons have been on the backfoot trying to convince a disbelieving population that the National Health Service is safe with them. They have had to hold it up as a torch of progress from 60 years ago and it was a wholy SOCIALIST LEFT GOVERNMENT who established it!

My mother had 2 new knees - cost....nothing.

There's probably too much of a vested interest in the US to do anything like this, the Pharms and medical establishment are too powerful to redistribute any wealth.

[CatEyes]

There's probably too much of a vested interest in the US to do anything like this, the Pharms and medical establishment are too powerful to redistribute any wealth.

Bingo!!

I am going to open up here a bit personally -

In 2005 I started getting very ill ..... in the hospital 8 times ...... completely misdiagnosed each time .... partially because insurance would not pay for extra tests.

Treated with drugs drugs and more drugs ....... I work full time and have insurance. However my co-pays were so high many times I could not afford the meds (sometimes my co-pays were $100.00)....... I scraped and scraped to get what I could but still ended up filing bancruptcy.

And still kept getting sicker ...... and I went from specialist to specialist ..... and had to pay for those too.

In January of 2006 I finally collapsed outside my apt door as I was trying to get to work --- I need to keep working to keep my insurance -- in the hospital for another 2 weeks and finally was diagnosed with a rare and fatal disease .. one reason the disease is considered fatal is that it is so often misdiagnosed that over 90% of the diagnosis is done during autopsy.

No sympathies please - I have no intention of dying any time soon - (the only ones who need to worry are those I might come back and haunt - and those are mostly doctors, providers and politicians)

Anyway there are meds that can help alleviate symptoms and provide for a better quality of life (and maybe a longer one).
The cost of most of these miracle drugs is about $50,000 a year - and this is the kicker - the only place they can be obtained is FROM THE MANUFACTURER - and wanting to help, the manufacturer will kick in for part of the cost ...... insurance kicks in for part of the cost - and the patients are still left with a montly expense of $1,500.00 - $2,000.00 FOR ONE PILL A DAY.

Well since I need to take care of those silly luxuries like rent and electric, I am not on any of these meds.

There have been other probs too - some days I have spent the entire day on the phone with the insurance company and providers - (I have a private office at work - and they are very flexible with me) - I fought and fought and fought and it came down to I just had to refuse to lay down and die. I really am an inconvenience to some of these people as long as I am alive - my personal goal is to piss them off for a very long time.

Fortunately, I am a bitch with a brain and I just kept fighting and pushing and I got what I needed - I am on O2 24/7 and I have equipment at home and the office and portable equip to travel back and forth - and the insurance co pays for it - but I had to draw blood to get it.

Not everyone is as mouthy as me ..... and some people are afraid to push ..... especially women ..... we are taught at a very early age to always be polite and do not raise our voices. Many elderly are afraid to fight ..... and if you are really sick some days you just do not have the strength. So when I am yelling and fighting (and I write really great letters) I hope that if I get what I need, it might make it easier down the road for someone else. And they can spend their end time enjoying life!!

If you have group ins through your employment, many times the problem is with the contract that your employer has with the insurance co - if they go on the cheap - you are gonna be screwed unless you are a fighter.

There is one new drug that will be available next summer and a new procedure that should be available by then as well (it has been available in several countries for 2 years and is now being tested on human subjects in Canada - which is where I will need to go if I can find the gas money). I monitor the progress daily . One good thing about having what is considered an "orphan" disease is that the FDA will approve drugs and procedures more quickly.

Sorry to bore you all ........ just sharing war stories.

Cat

[conversationpc]

Really interesting debate. We've had 'free' healthcare since the early 50s. A brave and forward looking Labour government nationalised everything and created arguably the best healthcare system in the world, based on a National insurance levy paid by all workers.

So much so, the Conservatives under Thatcher in the 80s tried their best to privatise it along the lines of US models, thank fuck the unions and the population stopped her dead. Only upper management in rip-off large corps have private healthcare as job sweeteners.

Since then the Cons have been on the backfoot trying to convince a disbelieving population that the National Health Service is safe with them. They have had to hold it up as a torch of progress from 60 years ago and it was a wholy SOCIALIST LEFT GOVERNMENT who established it!

My mother had 2 new knees - cost....nothing.

There's probably too much of a vested interest in the US to do anything like this, the Pharms and medical establishment are too powerful to redistribute any wealth.

The best healthcare in the world is in the U.S. Doctors still come here from all over the world because there is still incentive to do so. If the government takes over and mandates healthcare for everyone and takes the profit out of it, the incentive for doctors will be gone. Sorry, but that's the truth. Thousands of your own citizens come here to the U.S. for dental and healthcare because your system is so cumbersome and ineffective. You may have good doctors there but the system itself sucks.

[conversationpc]

A couple points.

Hillary's first attempt at National Health care was doomed because of a divided Congress.

Fast forward to now. Hillary becomes president, gets a more staunch Democratic Congress, which both will happen, and deals with Govt Health with competence, not buffoonery like Bush. He couldn't tell you where Walter Reed is for Christs sake.

I for one thinks for sure this will happen.

My taxes are already way too high to take a major hit like this government-mandated healthcare would cost. Bush's Medicare prescription program is already costing us tons of money, and all this will do is add even more of a tax burden on those who already can't afford it.

[Marc S]

I'm sorry PC but you do live in a very deluded world - I am talking about day to day healthcare not a few people who travel to the US to get something very specialist. Read and reread Cate Eyes posts. It may be cumbersome but it works. People get sorted not left to die if you cant pay. I have come across a few of your posts - do you have a conscience tucked away anywhere, have you ever done anything because it felt the right thing to do? Paticularly for other people. Try not to think about yourself for once?

[Matthew]

I'm sorry PC but you do live in a very deluded world - I am talking about day to day healthcare not a few people who travel to the US to get something very specialist. Read and reread Cate Eyes posts. It may be cumbersome but it works. People get sorted not left to die if you cant pay. I have come across a few of your posts - do you have a conscience tucked away anywhere, have you ever done anything because it felt the right thing to do? Paticularly for other people. Try not to think about yourself for once?

Hey Marc - I've had a few dust ups with Dave about his right-wing views - but I have to say he puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to his beliefs - much more than most liberals I know who just talk the talk.

I agree though that our free health care system over here works and I doubt we pay that much more tax than most Americans do either.

[bluejeangirl76]

Fast forward to now. Hillary becomes president, gets a more staunch Democratic Congress, which both will happen, and deals with Govt Health with competence, not buffoonery like Bush. He couldn't tell you where Walter Reed is for Christs sake.

"Walter Reed? Ummm... he was the daddy on The Donna Reed Show, right?" -- GWB

[RedWingFan]

A couple points.

Hillary's first attempt at National Health care was doomed because of a divided Congress.

Dude a vote of 99-0 IS NOT DIVIDED!!! That's the margin her plan failed by!!!

[ohsherrie]

The average American gets fucked over, as insurance companies deny claims, pharmacuticals rape people with sky high costs, and services are so ridiculous it's embarrassing. This is the human life we are talking about. I love how the republicans are so "pro life" but when the need comes for health care, it's "fuck you, deal with it."

Amen, Kudos, Bravo, and dead on the mark.

[TRAGChick]

Vice President? Yeah, I am one to take a backseat I guarantee you I wouldn't be W' VP. He isn't half as smart as I am, and I am not bragging, either.

Anyway, as always, credit and thanks go out to Yulog for his tireless work on my Avatar.

If someone wants to enlarge my avatar, please help. For some reason, Photobucket only allows me these tiny pics...

Go here:
http://imageshack.us/

You have 9 size options.

[ohsherrie]

And as far as John Stossel's credibility, this is the same man that said the way to bring oil prices down was raise the price of gas so high that people couldn't afford to drive or heat their homes. That way people would quit buying gas and the prices would have to come down because supply would outweigh demand. Of course he couldn't say what people who were just getting by were supposed to do after they lost their jobs because they couldn't get to work, or what to do about the people who would freeze to death in the northern states because they could afford heat. To hell with them I guess. If they can't afford to live then let 'em die. At least his oil stocks would keep going up because the oil companies would just shut down refineries and lay off their workers to balance out the supply/demand problem.

But then, that seems to be the conservative view on everything.

[RedWingFan]

And as far as John Stossel's credibility, this is the same man that said the way to bring oil prices down was raise the price of gas so high that people couldn't afford to drive or heat their homes. That way people would quit buying gas and the prices would have to come down because supply would outweigh demand. Of course he couldn't say what people who were just getting by were supposed to do after they lost their jobs because they couldn't get to work, or what to do about the people who would freeze to death in the northern states because they could afford heat. To hell with them I guess. If they can't afford to live then let 'em die.

But then, that seems to be the conservative view on everything.

Technically Stossel's right. It would bring the price down. Don't know where you heard him say that. I'm sure he wasn't serious about that as an option. At least he's not a politician. By the way that's what Al Gore said he WOULD do if he ever had the chance. He said he'd raise gas taxes so much just to discourage use. It's in his book "Earth in the Balance". Thank God for Florida huh! Just think how close that politician was to getting into office and screw the little guy. We'd all probably be having additional taxes taken from us to purchase required "carbon offsets" to keep us out of jail.

[CatEyes]

I don't care who I piss off here. Pharmacuticals, hospitals, insurance companies...all are guilty. The average American gets fucked over, as insurance companies deny claims, pharmacuticals rape people with sky high costs, and services are so ridiculous it's embarrassing. This is the human life we are talking about.

That is always one of my main arguments when I am fighting for things I need.

Once my oxygen providor did not show up to deliver my oxygen ....... their response "We will be there on Monday"
My response: "I am ordering oxygen....... not pizza" -
"This is Saturday ...... Monday I will have to take off another day of work (it was supposed to have been delivered on Wednesday - so I had missed Thursday and Friday because I did not have enough to get to work) If I take off many more days, I will lose my job ..... if I lose my job, I have no insurance ..... if I have no insurance there is no one to pay for the oxygen ....... without the oxygen I will die. So whoever decided it was ok to blow me off for two more days decided it was ok for me to die. I want the name of the person there who has decided that it is ok for me to die. No hard feelings.... just want to make sure I come back and haunt their ass."

My oxygen was delivered in an hour and a half.

And please don't tell me that the gov't will pay for my oxygen ......... In order to qualify for disability you cannot make more than 900 per month (before taxes)........ without insurance ..... 900 dollars to cover rent electric, meds, oxygen and other supplies.

and by the govt's own estimate it take 9 - 12 months to qualify. Of course once you do qualify you get a check for the monthly payment retroactive to the time you applied. However, it takes 2 YEARS for medicare to kick in and help with the medical expenses - and you no longer have insurance - so that one check has to cover everything for 2 years.

These are peoples lives folks - not political opinions.

Cat

[conversationpc]

And as far as John Stossel's credibility, this is the same man that said the way to bring oil prices down was raise the price of gas so high that people couldn't afford to drive or heat their homes. That way people would quit buying gas and the prices would have to come down because supply would outweigh demand. Of course he couldn't say what people who were just getting by were supposed to do after they lost their jobs because they couldn't get to work, or what to do about the people who would freeze to death in the northern states because they could afford heat. To hell with them I guess. If they can't afford to live then let 'em die. At least his oil stocks would keep going up because the oil companies would just shut down refineries and lay off their workers to balance out the supply/demand problem.

IF he said, I can't imagine that he was serious at all about it. Now Al Gore is another story...

[Marc S]

RaiderFan

Technically Stossel's right. It would bring the price down. Don't know where you heard him say that. I'm sure he wasn't serious about that as an option. At least he's not a politician. By the way that's what Al Gore said he WOULD do if he ever had the chance. He said he'd raise gas taxes so much just to discourage use. It's in his book "Earth in the Balance". Thank God for Florida huh! Wink Just think how close that politician was to getting into office and screw the little guy. We'd all probably be having additional taxes taken from us to purchase required "carbon offsets" to keep us out of jail.

But hey, as long a YOU are alright, Raiderfan? Yep thats just fine then. As long as your little 'I'm fucking alright Jack' world is unruffled eh?

Fucking Florida. Governed by someone even more corrupt and stupid. Dubya's fat little twat of a brother.

[conversationpc]

But hey, as long a YOU are alright, Raiderfan? Yep thats just fine then. As long as your little 'I'm fucking alright Jack' world is unruffled eh?

Fucking Florida. Governed by someone even more corrupt and stupid. Dubya's fat little twat of a brother.

Are you a U.S. citizen?

[RedWingFan]

RaiderFan

Technically Stossel's right. It would bring the price down. Don't know where you heard him say that. I'm sure he wasn't serious about that as an option. At least he's not a politician. By the way that's what Al Gore said he WOULD do if he ever had the chance. He said he'd raise gas taxes so much just to discourage use. It's in his book "Earth in the Balance". Thank God for Florida huh! Wink Just think how close that politician was to getting into office and screw the little guy. We'd all probably be having additional taxes taken from us to purchase required "carbon offsets" to keep us out of jail.

But hey, as long a YOU are alright, Raiderfan? Yep thats just fine then. As long as your little 'I'm fucking alright Jack' world is unruffled eh?

Fucking Florida. Governed by someone even more corrupt and stupid. Dubya's fat little twat of a brother.

Your idiotic av completely trumps and discredits your idiotic words, which is quite a feat. They make no sense to my objections to raising gas taxes on the American people.

[Marc S]

I don't need to be, just take a very keen interest and have spent quite a bit of time over there. That a problem?

[ohsherrie]

Technically Stossel's right. It would bring the price down. Don't know where you heard him say that. I'm sure he wasn't serious about that as an option. At least he's not a politician. By the way that's what Al Gore said he WOULD do if he ever had the chance. He said he'd raise gas taxes so much just to discourage use. It's in his book "Earth in the Balance". Thank God for Florida huh! Just think how close that politician was to getting into office and screw the little guy. We'd all probably be having additional taxes taken from us to purchase required "carbon offsets" to keep us out of jail.

He said it on GMA and Diane Sawyer had a hard time letting him get away with it, but she had to.

I haven't heard Mr. Gore say that, but I'll take your word for it that he did. The difference between his point of view and the standard conservative one would be that he would try to find a way to keep the less monetarily fortunate people from suffering the consequences.

Yesterday I heard a discussion on evolution vs creation. One woman said she didn't believe in evolution because the bible didn't teach it. The other woman asked her if she believed the world was round. The first woman said she was too busy being a mother to worry about whether the world was round.

That conversation, to me, reflected the whole conservative belief system. That being "If it isn't what makes my life comfortable, then it just isn't real and I will accept no evidence to the contrary". That applies equally to the philosophies of the vast majority of economic as well as religious conservatives.

[Marc S]

RaiderFan

Your idiotic av completely trumps and discredits your idiotic words, which is quite a feat. Laughing They make no sense to my objections to raising gas taxes on the American people.

I knew that avatar would piss someone with your views off. Mission accomplished - get a sense of humour.

[RedWingFan]

RaiderFan

Your idiotic av completely trumps and discredits your idiotic words, which is quite a feat. Laughing They make no sense to my objections to raising gas taxes on the American people.

I knew that avatar would piss someone with your views off. Mission accomplished - get a sense of humour.

I'm not pissed off. Just dumbfounded someone could be so ignorant Amazes me!

[Marc S]

ohsherrie.

That conversation, to me, reflected the whole conservative belief system. That being "If it isn't what makes my life comfortable, then it just isn't real and I will accept no evidence to the contrary". That applies equally to the philosophies of the vast majority of economic as well as religious conservatives.

Amen. Great analogy. But thats blinkered religion for you. How can anyone with half a braincell believe that evolution didnt get us here? That is the scariest thing about it. Jesus saves but David Beckham hits it in on the rebound...

[MCC620]

I don't care who I piss off here. Pharmacuticals, hospitals, insurance companies...all are guilty. The average American gets fucked over, as insurance companies deny claims, pharmacuticals rape people with sky high costs, and services are so ridiculous it's embarrassing. This is the human life we are talking about.

That is always one of my main arguments when I am fighting for things I need.

Once my oxygen providor did not show up to deliver my oxygen ....... their response "We will be there on Monday"
My response: "I am ordering oxygen....... not pizza" -
"This is Saturday ...... Monday I will have to take off another day of work (it was supposed to have been delivered on Wednesday - so I had missed Thursday and Friday because I did not have enough to get to work) If I take off many more days, I will lose my job ..... if I lose my job, I have no insurance ..... if I have no insurance there is no one to pay for the oxygen ....... without the oxygen I will die. So whoever decided it was ok to blow me off for two more days decided it was ok for me to die. I want the name of the person there who has decided that it is ok for me to die. No hard feelings.... just want to make sure I come back and haunt their ass."

My oxygen was delivered in an hour and a half.

And please don't tell me that the gov't will pay for my oxygen ......... In order to qualify for disability you cannot make more than 900 per month (before taxes)........ without insurance ..... 900 dollars to cover rent electric, meds, oxygen and other supplies.

and by the govt's own estimate it take 9 - 12 months to qualify. Of course once you do qualify you get a check for the monthly payment retroactive to the time you applied. However, it takes 2 YEARS for medicare to kick in and help with the medical expenses - and you no longer have insurance - so that one check has to cover everything for 2 years.

These are peoples lives folks - not political opinions.

Cat

I'm paying attention to you Cat since you are the one here suffering through the issues and not just someone that is providing a political view.

And NO, you're not going anywhere anytime soon!

[RedWingFan]

Yesterday I heard a discussion on evolution vs creation. One woman said she didn't believe in evolution because the bible didn't teach it. The other woman asked her if she believed the world was round. The first woman said she was too busy being a mother to worry about whether the world was round.

Well if she knew her Bible better she would have said that God's word told us the Earth was round. It was just too radical a thought to be believed by the masses back then.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22, NIV) Back then the Hebrew language didn't have a word for "sphere" only for "circle."