MR

Okay, I've spent the past couple hours making comparsions and trying to find out if 1) backing vocal tracks are being used and (2) if the Manchester bootleg on dimeadozen.com has been altered in any way. I've already made comparisons to Separate Ways on the Toronto bootleg that's been circulating for months, before the allegations even took place. So I know that bootleg was not altered or enhanced.

Before I start, let me throw around some credentials. I've been in the music business for over a decade. I've been a performer, an engineer, a promoter, a roadie, and just about everything else you can imagine. I've mixed live shows, mixed and produced CDs, one of which was written and produced over email between myself and a collaborator in Sweden (results of which are on Melodicrock.com's Compilation CD II). I've produced TV commercials, designed websites, produced DVDs, demos, and multimedia flash presentations. I'm not saying I'm the best at any of this, I'm just saying I've done it, so hopefully what I'm going to post here has some merit.

I've known Journey used backing tracks for years. I've also suspected that Steve Augeri used enhancement and guide vocal tracks at least on the last tour. His performance at last year's House of Blues show in Myrtle Beach was amazing, and yet this was in November - At the beginning of the tour Neal Schon himself publically stated that he was concerned about Augeri's vocal health. I've heard him 3 times before last year and, while he was an excellent showman, his vocal abilities weren't that stellar. I went on the record last November saying that the show was unbelieveably good, and publically mentioned that he may have been getting some assistance.

Since this came out, I've listened to the evidence that Deano presented with a critical ear. I've had my beef with Deano in the past, but I had no reason to think he was behind a plot to discredit the current lineup of Journey. As most can attest to, he was an ardent supporter of Augeri until around December of last year, so there didn't appear to be any real reason he would have had some big agenda. Since then, I haven't agreed with Deano's methods, but he has presented some evidence, that appeared to be collaborated both publically and privately by other professionals in the business.

A week ago I posted that I was really upset about the division on this board. I came back from a performance to see this board tearing itself to pieces. I wanted to look objectively at this, and I want to show some real world facts and let people make up their own mind.

LISTEN UP, PEOPLE. I'm sick of people fighting. I'm sick of this controversy taking away from my enjoyment of the band. I've listened to Journey's music at least every day of my life for the past 15 years. It's one of the most important things in the world to me. Scott Ian was right, the band did sell their souls for those chord progressions and melodies. There's nothing like it in the world, before or since. And I don't know the band, I don't know what kind of people they are, and I don't care. Do I think they need to answer to their fans? Yeah, I think it's arrogant to assume you don't need to address a situation like this. But I just wish people could calm down and just enjoy the music. Listen to your CDs. Go to Journey shows if that's what you want. If there's portions of the show that aren't live, big deal - Did you have a good time anyway? I'll bet you did. And if you didn't, it's your right to bitch about it, you paid your good money. So I wanted to put some information together that can hopefully answer some questions for you folks......Some people will claim it doesn't prove a thing, others will say it is the proof the world's been waiting for. I just wanted to show what I found out, so that's what I'll do here on the next few threads.

Again, here's what I'm laying out.

1) Are their guide vocals being used?
2) Are the bootlegs doctored for the sake of making Journey look bad?

Jeremey wrote:Okay, I've spent the past couple hours making comparsions and trying to find out if 1) backing vocal tracks are being used and (2) if the Manchester bootleg on dimeadozen.com has been altered in any way. I've already made comparisons to Separate Ways on the Toronto bootleg that's been circulating for months, before the allegations even took place. So I know that bootleg was not altered or enhanced.

Before I start, let me throw around some credentials. I've been in the music business for over a decade. I've been a performer, an engineer, a promoter, a roadie, and just about everything else you can imagine. I've mixed live shows, mixed and produced CDs, one of which was written and produced over email between myself and a collaborator in Sweden (results of which are on Melodicrock.com's Compilation CD II). I've produced TV commercials, designed websites, produced DVDs, demos, and multimedia flash presentations. I'm not saying I'm the best at any of this, I'm just saying I've done it, so hopefully what I'm going to post here has some merit.

I've known Journey used backing tracks for years. I've also suspected that Steve Augeri used enhancement and guide vocal tracks at least on the last tour. His performance at last year's House of Blues show in Myrtle Beach was amazing, and yet this was in November - At the beginning of the tour Neal Schon himself publically stated that he was concerned about Augeri's vocal health. I've heard him 3 times before last year and, while he was an excellent showman, his vocal abilities weren't that stellar. I went on the record last November saying that the show was unbelieveably good, and publically mentioned that he may have been getting some assistance.

Since this came out, I've listened to the evidence that Deano presented with a critical ear. I've had my beef with Deano in the past, but I had no reason to think he was behind a plot to discredit the current lineup of Journey. As most can attest to, he was an ardent supporter of Augeri until around December of last year, so there didn't appear to be any real reason he would have had some big agenda. Since then, I haven't agreed with Deano's methods, but he has presented some evidence, that appeared to be collaborated both publically and privately by other professionals in the business.

A week ago I posted that I was really upset about the division on this board. I came back from a performance to see this board tearing itself to pieces. I wanted to look objectively at this, and I want to show some real world facts and let people make up their own mind.

LISTEN UP, PEOPLE. I'm sick of people fighting. I'm sick of this controversy taking away from my enjoyment of the band. I've listened to Journey's music at least every day of my life for the past 15 years. It's one of the most important things in the world to me. Scott Ian was right, the band did sell their souls for those chord progressions and melodies. There's nothing like it in the world, before or since. And I don't know the band, I don't know what kind of people they are, and I don't care. Do I think they need to answer to their fans? Yeah, I think it's arrogant to assume you don't need to address a situation like this. But I just wish people could calm down and just enjoy the music. Listen to your CDs. Go to Journey shows if that's what you want. If there's portions of the show that aren't live, big deal - Did you have a good time anyway? I'll bet you did. And if you didn't, it's your right to bitch about it, you paid your good money. So I wanted to put some information together that can hopefully answer some questions for you folks......Some people will claim it doesn't prove a thing, others will say it is the proof the world's been waiting for. I just wanted to show what I found out, so that's what I'll do here on the next few threads.

Again, here's what I'm laying out.

1) Are their guide vocals being used?
2) Are the bootlegs doctored for the sake of making Journey look bad?

Finally, some intelligent dissection of the issue. You have a good (written) overview to start and solid credentials to back your findings. This is what I was looking for. Thank you.

I agree Jeremy you sound like you know what you are talking about!!

Do you guys ever get too Ft lauderdale area??

Zino

First I'll take the first sample, which is "Escape," and compare the Manchester bootleg that's circulating and the Vegas 2001 DVD.

I'm using a multitrack program called Vegas by Sony to make the side by side comparisons, and the Sony program Sound Forge to make stereo comparisons.

Here's a screenshot of the Sony multitrack program, Vegas:


The first track is audio from the Vegas 2001 DVD. I synched this up with the Manchester boot by matching up the snare hit after the piano intro. Using Vegas, I can synch up tracks within 1/100th of a second, so it wasn't too hard to do....You can see from the picture that the Vegas DVD audio is much beefier than the Manchester audio. Here's what the stereo track looked like when combined:



Notice that the Vegas, ProTooled, mastered for DVD audio is a tightly compressed wave form. The Manchester wave form has lots of peaks and valleys throughout it. The Manchester boot would have been much more compressed and much louder had the original Vegas DVD audio been mixed in as well. In fact, there is no way to isolate just the vocals in the DVD audio, so someone would have had to have placed the entire DVD audio clip overtop of the Manchester clip, which would have been very obvious in a waveform.

It would have been even more obvious in the audio portion. Even if the audio from Vegas was directly overlayed onto the bootleg, it would have had to have been mixed very low in the mix to cover up all of the ambient noise. Stuart said he noticed lots of ambient noise in the mix, however, this would have been indestinguishable from the noise in the manchester crowd.

Put simply, they are 2 different tracks. There's tangible proof, see it with your own eyes, and hear it with your own ears.

Here's a clip of Escape, mixed with the Vegas on one side and the Manchester on the other: EDITED

What you hear to begin with is two very separate recordings. There is no way there was anything overlayed on this file. And, in fact, you hear Steve Augeri ad libbing differently on both tracks. Then around :42, the vocal synchs up with the Vegas vocal. In fact, there are two identical "ad libs" between the two at 1:02-1:03 ("i'm alreadyight") and 1:05.

Here's the entire file of Escape, for educational purposes only, with Manchester on one side and Vegas on the other:

EDITED

Notice in particular, ad libs may change but melody fluctuations are mostly identical. Note at :50, "you had to learn everything the hard wayee,"....

Here's the pictures of the waveform from the Vegas audio:



and here's the same segment from Manchester - Almost an identical spike in the waveform at the vocal inflection:



It's apparent there are points where the vocal is ad-libbed, the melody is sung live, and then there are points where the guide vocal takes over.

Wow. Who'd have thunk it?

Rockn'deano wrote:Wow. Who'd have thunk it?

Yeah I know! Amazing what you can see if you actually stop and look at it...who'd have thunk it, is right!

I'm not an audio expert but looking at those segments, they don't look similar enough for me to make any conclusions one way or the other.

There has also been speculation that the vocal tracks of Generations were used live during the Generations tour, and on the Manchester bootleg. I own a copy of Generations, so what I did was compare this track to the "Faith In The Heartland" on the manchester bootleg. I put up both tracks in the Sony Vegas program and synched them up. Here's a screenshot of the multitrack program:



Notice the Generations track of FITH starts earlier here, because of the extended synth intro. The live manchester version actually has an extra snare hit at the beginning to cue the track. Again, I know that the Generations track was not overlayed on the Manchester boot because of the raggedy waveform of the Manchester track, plus the fact there are two completely different beginnings. Also, if you notice in the picture, the Generations track is split, because the longer coda after the live chorus - Again, proving there is no way the manchester version was doctored up.

Here's the combined track, showing both the ragged bootleg waveform, and the sleek compressed waveform off the CD:


[/img]

For educational purposes, here is the combined intro and first verse. Note that I dropped out the Generations track at :35 and then the Manchester track at :43 to show that they independently synch up.

EDITED


Now here's verse 2:

EDITED

It is clear in this comparison that Augeri is singing throughout the second verse, and using the multitrack during the prechorus and chorus. Here's the second verse - The vocal track is close, but it does not synch up. It isn't apparent that it's the same track until :21, where it almost catches up with him.

Finally, there's the ad lib at the end. This was a tough one for me, because I am almost certain that the Generations CD vocal blips in for a second over top of Augeri's live ad lib. Check out the pic first:



Now here's the audio of the clip:

EDITED

Augeri begins singing live "blah blah blah something to believe in...", and then at exactly :03, you hear the "GIVE" pop in overtop of the vocal adlib for a split second - and in the other channel you can hear it duplicated on the Generations CD version. I highlighted the waveform on the Manchester clip right where the blip comes in.

Bottom line is, it seems a lot is lip synched, and a lot is sung live on this track. It's been said by most that Augeri's had his ups and downs, flubbed words, and missed notes. My belief is that the guide vocal is always there, and depending on Augeri's abilities, it's going to be what the audience hears more on some nights than others.

I hope everyone digests this with a little maturity and understanding, and it maybe answers some questions some of you may have. I've spent WAYY too much time on this already, and I'm hitting the road in the morning for a show in South Carolina, so I probably won't be around to answer a lot of questions you might have. Bottom line is, decide for yourselves. I hope this has been helpful.

"you hear Steve Augeri ad libbing differently"

Notice that the Vegas, ProTooled, mastered for DVD audio is a tightly compressed wave form. The Manchester wave form has lots of peaks and valleys throughout it.[b]

Sorry bud. Without a metronome you can't sync it, or count 4/4 time as real. You, better than anyone understands 4/4 time, and the delay to the walls to crowd to the monitors to your ears.

It's off by fractions of seconds, but it's off nonetheless.

Just another opinion, and 2 hours won't bring you to the right opinion.


Pit[/b]

Yeah Jeremy! Where do you get off trying to sound as if you know anything about music? 10 years a singer, producer, a writer a mixer and sound guy....

You should feel ashamed because pit just exposed you!

I needed the laugh.

If Jeremy just confirmed what Deano said, how does that make him a loser?

I'm in T.O. Deano. We should have coffee and discuss.

Also - Augeri1 - you have been making an absolute fool of yourself with all these threats of legal action. It would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

Deano has been expressing his opinion on the internet. He has been offering what he believes is hard-core proof. Right or wrong, no one can touch him or would bother. If he is wrong, legal action makes Journey look petty in paying attention to him and if he is right, well, Journey certainly would not want him to mount any kind of defense in court.

I think there is overwhelming eveidence that the show is not entirely live. Deano is pissed about it. That's his right as a fan. Just as you have the right to ignore it.

I disagree with Deano in that I think Augeri is just part of the machine and it doesn't make him a bad guy. I'm sure he is doing what he thinks is best. I think the ones to blame here lie more with Ross/Jon/Neal. They need to know when to say when. There are far better ways to carry on in the business than this. And just because many bands seem to do it and get away with it, it doesn't make it right.

Deano - I would bit a bit more tempered and not so in-your-face about all this. This affects people on a personal level. I think we can all learn from Jeremy to this point. And Augeri1 - you need to understand that this really bothers people - people that do care about the legacy of Journey. For all of us who defended the group to our friends, it's not comfortable to have them laughing at us now. Just because you want to close your eyes, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. We are all connected by this once-great group.

I have to say that I am no expert in audio stuff, I am just a computer nerd, and have picked up a thing or two in my life.

So I will bow to Jeremey's credentials.

I think there is enough here to make thing intriguing.

Do you have more Jeremey?

Memorex wrote:

I'm in T.O. Deano. We should have coffee and discuss.

Beers and you have a deal. Oh wait, I do drugs too. I will bring them along as well

Deano has been expressing his opinion on the internet. He has been offering what he believes is hard-core proof. Right or wrong, no one can touch him or would bother. If he is wrong, legal action makes Journey look petty in paying attention to him and if he is right, well, Journey certainly would not want him to mount any kind of defense in court.

That is precisely why they can't or won't do anything. They will lose, both legally and in the court of public opinion. I hear through "people" on here that I am close to being in jail, sured etc etc. I think what the next step may be, seriously, is a class action suit against the Band, and yes, I am as serious as an heart attack.

I would NEVER come out with this unless I was 100% positive that this was going on. I don't want to break Journey, but I do want the truth. I am afraid now however, we have gone too far and either I will be in prison, or Journey will be paying out money. Because I will tell right now, this is the Last tour, you take that to the bank.

Rockn'deano wrote:
I think what the next step may be, seriously, is a class action suit against the Band, and yes, I am as serious as an heart attack.

This is one of the most absurd propositions I've heard in a long time.

No one is going to prison. That's silly. They'd have to charge many others besides you.

You'd be served a Cease and Desist order long before that.

Augeri1 has said as many inflamatory things about you as you have said about Journey. So I guess if you go...

I am not sure about boots and the legality of posting them, but again, it's a small thing in the larger picture.

Rockn'deano wrote:

Memorex wrote:

I'm in T.O. Deano. We should have coffee and discuss.

Beers and you have a deal. Oh wait, I do drugs too. I will bring them along as well:roll:

Deano has been expressing his opinion on the internet. He has been offering what he believes is hard-core proof. Right or wrong, no one can touch him or would bother. If he is wrong, legal action makes Journey look petty in paying attention to him and if he is right, well, Journey certainly would not want him to mount any kind of defense in court.

That is precisely why they can't or won't do anything. They will lose, both legally and in the court of public opinion. I hear through "people" on here that I am close to being in jail, sured etc etc. I think what the next step may be, seriously, is a class action suit against the Band, and yes, I am as serious as an heart attack.

I would NEVER come out with this unless I was 100% positive that this was going on. I don't want to break Journey, but I do want the truth. I am afraid now however, we have gone too far and either I will be in prison, or Journey will be paying out money. Because I will tell right now, this is the Last tour, you take that to the bank.

You be sure to run with that class action suit. Btter sign up lots of illegal immigrants to truly make it class action or you are dead in the water.

"They" don't do anything because they don't have to. Run to your dimestore and web lawyers, and check back when you have something.

No one is going to sue you Dboy. You'll just simply be incarcerated for violating copyright laws. If you can't see it now, you will.

Crystal clear. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Maybe it will penetrate to that dead head of yours. One more time. You've got nothing. You never had anything but an agenda, and you are going down.

Quick, get on the web and search all you want for something to defeat my common sense. Your gonna lose, and the more widespread you try to make it, the worse it is gonna be. It's only a matter of Time Time Time.

You may just meet Brutus instead of Popeye. Serves you right, and suit yourself.

Pit

Pit - you are high.

Find me one case similar to Deano's where someone went to jail and I'll jump to your side.

Pit wrote:"you hear Steve Augeri ad libbing differently"

Notice that the Vegas, ProTooled, mastered for DVD audio is a tightly compressed wave form. The Manchester wave form has lots of peaks and valleys throughout it.[b]

Sorry bud. Without a metronome you can't sync it, or count 4/4 time as real. You, better than anyone understands 4/4 time, and the delay to the walls to crowd to the monitors to your ears.

It's off by fractions of seconds, but it's off nonetheless.

Just another opinion, and 2 hours won't bring you to the right opinio


Pit[/b]

It is possible to psych these wave forms together in a high end program like Vegas, Pro Tools, or Sonar. I do similar things on a weekly basis.

Memorex wrote:Pit - you are high.

Find me one case similar to Deano's where someone went to jail and I'll jump to your side.

Maybe Deano's case is the one they've been waiting on.

Don't forget the 17 year old who is in Juvi right now for piracy, or God forbid the Napster founder who gave his fortune and soul to Microsoft to stay out of jail.

Who's hi?

You're right. I'm sky F*N high.

Anything else from the peanut gallery?

Washington will jelp you acrosss the Potomac at a moments notice. Careful with that first step.

Pit

No one in their right mind would sue someone who can lambaste their ass. Journey knows this. Yes, Davey is beating Goliath, and some here aren't too happy about it.

Oh by the way, tonights show....all lipped.

Rockn'deano wrote:Oh by the way, tonights show....all lipped.

It doesn't appear to be that way, at least from the comments in the "Tonight's Show" thread, from whom some of them seem to be at least partially on your side.

Rockn'deano wrote:No one in their right mind would someone who can lambaste their ass. Journey knows this. Yes, Davey is beating Goliath, and some here aren't too happy about it.

Oh by the way, tonights show....all lipped.

What is it they know? "Lambaste their ass?"

Time to "lie" down Dboy. Don't you have community service tomorrow anyway; Get some rest. I've seen the CA highways, and they suck just like you?

Pit

Memorex wrote:
Augeri1 has said as many inflamatory things about you as you have said about Journey. So I guess if you go...

and you call Pit, High?

Are you disputing that?

Memorex wrote:Are you disputing that?

heated "debates?" not at all...but no comparison to the slander he has spewed about the band...and by all means let me welcome you to Deanoland, Memorex...glad to have you aboard!

Memorex wrote:Are you disputing that?

Look who you are talking too. She is brain dead. Move on, and don't even respond. it took me awhile, but I learned not to respond to Pit or Penny...complete foolery.

Hey, If I am slandering, why no suit from Mr Awesome/ I am waiting with Open Arms to be sued. Come get me, IF you think you're right.

Slander implies untruths. I don't think Deano believes in any way that he is slandering the group. Defaming, maybe. Ha ha.

The only reason I don't fault Deano is that I am insulted at the lack of response from Journey.

I have always been the one that said the band owes us nothing. But this, they owe us. Or at the very least, they should not be surprised when fans are no longer fans.

I'd take Marillion over this anyday. Lots of live imperfections, but real.

Rockn'deano wrote:Hey, If I am slandering, why no suit from Mr Awesome/ I am waiting with Open Arms to be sued. Come get me, IF you think you're right.

It's pretty obvious that a suit has been your goal. I have already told you no one is going to sue you DBoy.

Check with arrivalrules. She knows everything. Follow her advice all the way down the drain.

Pit

So arrival rules, the one you staunchly defended against me early on, is NOW a total misguided twit? She listened for herself, and has changed sides.

Hi Craigy..waving...