MR

opinion on how things would've went if they never broke up with steve perry after 1986....

i think around 1989 or so they would've made another smash album with 'only the young' like material.another sold out tour would've happened.

then a three or four year break would've followed then another well recieved album and tour.i think they would've gotten back with steve smith and ross valory in 1996 for the album that is trial by fire.another sold out tour.....

they could've done a farewell tour in 2000 and be in the rock hall of fame by this time.

the ball was dropped big time decision wise a few times.

mikemarrs wrote:opinion on how things would've went if they never broke up with steve perry after 1986....

i think around 1989 or so they would've made another smash album with 'only the young' like material.another sold out tour would've happened.

then a three or four year break would've followed then another well recieved album and tour.i think they would've gotten back with steve smith and ross valory in 1996 for the album that is trial by fire.another sold out tour.....

they could've done a farewell tour in 2000 and be in the rock hall of fame by this time.

the ball was dropped big time decision wise a few times.

No - they quit at the right time. Journey's album sales were in freefall - from 9 million to 7 million to 2 million - in just five years.

Matthew wrote:

mikemarrs wrote:opinion on how things would've went if they never broke up with steve perry after 1986....

i think around 1989 or so they would've made another smash album with 'only the young' like material.another sold out tour would've happened.

then a three or four year break would've followed then another well recieved album and tour.i think they would've gotten back with steve smith and ross valory in 1996 for the album that is trial by fire.another sold out tour.....

they could've done a farewell tour in 2000 and be in the rock hall of fame by this time.

the ball was dropped big time decision wise a few times.

No - they quit at the right time. Journey's album sales were in freefall - from 9 million to 7 million to 2 million - in just five years.

Quitting at that time is what kept them from being viewed as "equals" to Aerosmith, BonJovi, Van Halen etc, the bands that enjoyed success into the next decade. Half of the life and muscial output of the band was thrown away. As for the decline in sales, ROR is not what (most) fans wanted from Journey, contrary to what you think this band was not another Manilow, Abba, or Air Supply. Prior to ROR, they usually had a perfect complement of rocker, mid-temp and ballad.

NoMoreTails wrote:Quitting at that time is what kept them from being viewed as "equals" to Aerosmith, BonJovi, Van Halen etc,

I view Journey as superior- and so do millions of other fans. Whose "view" are you talking about?

Half of the life and muscial output of the band was thrown away.

No - Journey came to a natural end in 1987 - and we got more of a full life from Journey than we did from many, many other bands.

As for the decline in sales, ROR is not what (most) fans wanted from Journey

No - probably not - but a rehash of Escape or Frontiers probably wouldn't have reversed a decline which was ultimately inevitable. This band peaked in 1981 and it was always going to be downhill all the way - just as HH feared and predicted.

Look at all of Journey's peers - REO, Foreigner, Styx, ertc etc - all the're sales nosedived after the early 1980s.

And as for your ridiculous misquote about Abba, Manilow and Air Supply....my point in the other thread was merely that "All Out Of Love" was an AOR ballad...like it or not.

And finally...Perry COULDN'T go on...you make out that it was a misguided business decision or something.

Kudos to Journey for doing very well administrating their catalog though....from Monster, to The Sopranos, Simpsons, and Family Guy to name a few, they have successfully evolved into this generation. I can't tell you how good it feels personally when I start the intro to DSB, and I see teenagers and 20 y.o.'s jumping up and down singing every single word.

I don't know what would have happened in 1987 if they had stayed together, but I'm not entirely unhappy with their longevity so far.

Matthew wrote:

NoMoreTails wrote:Quitting at that time is what kept them from being viewed as "equals" to Aerosmith, BonJovi, Van Halen etc,

I view Journey are superiors - and so do millions of other fans. Whose "view" are you talking about?

Half of the life and muscial output of the band was thrown away.

No - Journey came to a natural end in 1987 - and we got more of a full life from Journey than we did from many, many other bands.

I view them as superiors as well, I'm saying that Perry's early retirement kept their "legacy" and stature from being viewed as being equal to these bands and relegated them to being merely peers of REO, Foreigner, and Styx in the eyes of the general public, the casual fan who attends their shows as an excuse to party.

Actually that era of Journey came to a natural end in 1983 rather than 1987.

Matthew wrote:And finally...Perry COULDN'T go on...you make out that it was a misguided business decision or something.

This sounds melodramic enough to have come from one of the female loons...If he couldn't continue because of the abuse of and decline of his voice, fine, but if his hermit-ization resulted from the blows life had delt him, most of us have to suck it up/deal with it and move on with life, go back to work, etc.

Matthew wrote:Look at all of Journey's peers - REO, Foreigner, Styx, ertc etc - all the're sales nosedived after the early 1980s.

In REO Speedwagon's case, you're right. However, in regards to Styx, their last album in 1983, "Kilroy Was Here", sold pretty well and then they called it quits until 1990. Foreigner continued to sell very well with both "Agent Provocateur" and "Inside Information".

NoMoreTails wrote:I view them as superiors as well, I'm saying that Perry's early retirement kept their "legacy" and stature from being viewed as being equal to these bands

Sounds to me like you're talking about 'credibility' - a quality Journey lacked even when Perry was performing seven nights a week.

As for the legacy...I'd say it's doing just fine.

Matthew wrote:This sounds melodramic enough to have come from one of the female loons...If he couldn't continue because of the abuse of and decline of his voice, fine, but if his hermit-ization resulted from the blows life had delt him, most of us have to suck it up/deal with it and move on with life, go back to work, etc.

Believe me if I was a mulit-millionaire I wouldn't go back to a job that was making me unhappy. I'm sorry you're just an ordinary schnuk who has to show up to work no matter what but Perry isn't....

conversationpc wrote:

Matthew wrote:Look at all of Journey's peers - REO, Foreigner, Styx, ertc etc - all the're sales nosedived after the early 1980s.

In REO Speedwagon's case, you're right. However, in regards to Styx, their last album in 1983, "Kilroy Was Here", sold pretty well and then they called it quits until 1990. Foreigner continued to sell very well with both "Agent Provocateur" and "Inside Information".

"Agent Provocateur" was in 1984 so it was just at the tail end of the early 80s golden age for AOR bands. I'd be interested to see how well "Inside Information" from 1988 performed in comparison...let alone those that came out after that.

Matthew wrote:

conversationpc wrote:

Matthew wrote:Look at all of Journey's peers - REO, Foreigner, Styx, ertc etc - all the're sales nosedived after the early 1980s.

In REO Speedwagon's case, you're right. However, in regards to Styx, their last album in 1983, "Kilroy Was Here", sold pretty well and then they called it quits until 1990. Foreigner continued to sell very well with both "Agent Provocateur" and "Inside Information".

"Agent Provocateur" was in 1984 so it was just at the tail end of the early 80s golden age for AOR bands. I'd be interested to see how well "Inside Information" from 1988 performed in comparison...let alone those that came out after that.

"Inside Information" is a great CD. Gotta dig that one out. Used to listen to that one and Night Ranger's "Big Life".

NealIsGod wrote:"Inside Information" is a great CD. Gotta dig that one out. Used to listen to that one and Night Ranger's "Big Life".

I've always loved "Inside Information", much more so than "Agent Provocateur". "Counting Every Minute" is a very underrated rocker, in my opinion. That song kicks major ass.

Matthew wrote:Sounds to me like you're talking about 'credibility' - a quality Journey lacked even when Perry was performing seven nights a week.

I don't mean credibility...Aerosmith turned to rap to launch their comeback, Bon Jovi has just changed (to an extent) their sound for the second time in an attempt to cash in on a new audience. I'm really talking about longevity, staying in the public eye and working. By stopping in 86 Journey lost half of their career, Rolling Stones are as big as ever 40 years later.

Matthew wrote:Believe me if I was a mulit-millionaire I wouldn't go back to a job that was making me unhappy. I'm sorry you're just an ordinary schnuk who has to show up to work no matter what but Perry isn't....

This is all well and good, it was Perry's life to live as he saw fit, my point is that I think it cost Journey in terms of stature and us in terms of lost music.

NoMoreTails wrote:

Matthew wrote:Sounds to me like you're talking about 'credibility' - a quality Journey lacked even when Perry was performing seven nights a week.

I don't mean credibility...Aerosmith turned to rap to launch their comeback, Bon Jovi has just changed (to an extent) their sound for the second time in an attempt to cash in on a new audience. I'm really talking about longevity, staying in the public eye and working. By stopping in 86 Journey lost half of their career, Rolling Stones are as big as ever 40 years later.

Matthew wrote:Believe me if I was a mulit-millionaire I wouldn't go back to a job that was making me unhappy. I'm sorry you're just an ordinary schnuk who has to show up to work no matter what but Perry isn't....

This is all well and good, it was Perry's life to live as he saw fit, my point is that I think it cost Journey in terms of stature and us in terms of lost music.

As much as this topic has been hashed out before, I always love a good debate between Matt and NMT. No name calling, just both getting their points across. Carry on boys, great read.

NoMoreTails wrote:

Matthew wrote:And finally...Perry COULDN'T go on...you make out that it was a misguided business decision or something.

This sounds melodramic enough to have come from one of the female loons...If he couldn't continue because of the abuse of and decline of his voice, fine, but if his hermit-ization resulted from the blows life had delt him, most of us have to suck it up/deal with it and move on with life, go back to work, etc.

Female loon checkin' in.

NMT,the 'hermitization' of SP,as you call it,is not real.He's just not in the spotlight anylonger,nor actively recording or touring with a band.Other than that,he moved on with life and got back to work.He has many collaborations,Journey-related projects(remasters,DVDs) and enough studio activity since 1998 until present.I call that work behind the scenes.
I truly believe that's what he wants to do,for his own reasons.

I also agree with Matthew.In 1988 SP simply couldn't go on.Nothing melodramatic about that.

NoMoreTails wrote:turned to rap to launch their comeback, Bon Jovi has just changed (to an extent) their sound for the second time in an attempt to cash in on a new audience. I'm really talking about longevity, staying in the public eye and working. By stopping in 86 Journey lost half of their career, Rolling Stones are as big as ever 40 years later.

NMT - I see that you're crediting Perry with the power to keep Journey the big leagues or not...that they have no presence or stature without him. Anyone would think you're a Loon....

As for longevity...the Journey back catalogue still sells millions. And where do you get this "half" idea from?

lost music.

Journey released plenty of albums. Don't be greedy.

I think that if the band continued in 1987, they would have released one more album probably around '89 or '90. That would have been it. The music scene changed in the early '90s, and I think Journey would have dropped out of the spotlight.

Matthew wrote:NMT - I see that you're crediting Perry with the power to keep Journey the big leagues or not...that they have np presence or stature without him. Anyone would think you're a Loon....

As for longevity...the Journey back catalogue still sells millions. And where do you get this "half" idea from?

lost music.

Journey released plenty of albums. Don't be greedy.

But I've often said I think they should have replaced Perry after Frontiers, still do. I think their disappearing completely for ten years hurt more than replacing Perry would have.
Half comes from the ten years between ROR and TBF, as compared to the eight years or nine years he was active with the band.

Deb1 wrote:As much as this topic has been hashed out before, I always love a good debate between Matt and NMT. No name calling, just both getting their points across. Carry on boys, great read.

Perhaps we both bite our tongues on occasion.

*Laura wrote:NMT,the 'hermitization' of SP,as you call it,is not real.He's just not in the spotlight anylonger,nor actively recording or touring with a band.Other than that,he moved on with life and got back to work.He has many collaborations,Journey-related projects(remasters,DVDs) and enough studio activity since 1998 until present.I call that work behind the scenes.
I truly believe that's what he wants to do,for his own reasons.

Of course hermitization is an exaggeration...but I think it applies musically speaking. This studio work, a couple of solo tunes ten years ago, a couple of background vocals, is pretty minimal. Given FTLOSappyMusic and TBF, and the Songs So Bad Sony Turned Them Down unreleased album, he's only worked probably three out of the last 21 years as a singer. He was once heard saying "I'm going to find a cave and hermitize myself, its not so bad if you get enough squirrels and chipmunks to move in with you"--wait a minute, that was Ernest T. Bass, Perry said cats...

NoMoreTails wrote:If he couldn't continue because of the abuse of and decline of his voice, fine, but if his hermit-ization resulted from the blows life had delt him, most of us have to suck it up/deal with it and move on with life, go back to work, etc.

Indeedio.

there's a difference between not FEELING like it and not being ABLE to.

His quote in 2001 of what he told Schon/Cain at the time "I think I just wanna stop" speaks more to "don't feel like it."

If he COULDN'T, what the hell was with recording Against The Wall in '88?

NoMoreTails wrote:If he couldn't continue because of the abuse of and decline of his voice, fine, but if his hermit-ization resulted from the blows life had delt him, most of us have to suck it up/deal with it and move on with life, go back to work, etc.

Damn, I finally tought of Perry's melodrama from the ROR documentary, "We all have life's hatchets..." I was going to use that in my post but the word hatchet wouldn't come to me at the time.

NoMoreTails wrote:

But I've often said I think they should have replaced Perry after Frontiers, still do. .

You know what, NMT. You might have actually succeeded in changing my mind about something. All these repetitive arguments haven't been in vain....

Had Journey done a Van Halen or a Genesis in 1984 then yes...it is quite possible that Journey's album sales wouldn't have collapsed to the extent that they did. Personally I wouldn't trade ROR or TBF for anything - but looking at this objectively the fall from 9 million sales to 1 million sales is pretty spectacular and yes...a new singer with consistent releases might have steadied the ship back at say 3 million which is where Journey were at in 1980.

But who could they have hired? And would the fan base really have tolerated it back then? And would grunge have killed them off in the end anyway?

Red13JoePa wrote:
If he COULDN'T, what the hell was with recording Against The Wall in '88?

And a good point from the doppelganger too....

Matthew wrote:

NoMoreTails wrote:

But I've often said I think they should have replaced Perry after Frontiers, still do. .

You know what, NMT. You might have actually succeeded in changing my mind about something. All these repetitive arguments haven't been in vain....

NoMoreTails wrote:

*Laura wrote:NMT,the 'hermitization' of SP,as you call it,is not real.He's just not in the spotlight anylonger,nor actively recording or touring with a band.Other than that,he moved on with life and got back to work.He has many collaborations,Journey-related projects(remasters,DVDs) and enough studio activity since 1998 until present.I call that work behind the scenes.
I truly believe that's what he wants to do,for his own reasons.

Of course hermitization is an exaggeration...but I think it applies musically speaking. This studio work, a couple of solo tunes ten years ago, a couple of background vocals, is pretty minimal. Given FTLOSappyMusic and TBF, and the Songs So Bad Sony Turned Them Down unreleased album, he's only worked probably three out of the last 21 years as a singer. He was once heard saying "I'm going to find a cave and hermitize myself, its not so bad if you get enough squirrels and chipmunks to move in with you"--wait a minute, that was Ernest T. Bass, Perry said cats...

Come on...You know very well that SP always marched to the rhythm of his own drum.He was publicly active only as long as he felt like being so.
That reclusiveness doesn't apply even musically.He had "nothing to say".

Look at it this way,NMT.You have only a bit over 1000 posts in 2 years,does that mean you live in a cave with squirrels and chipmunks?
I think you live and work just like everybody else.Your public presence here is not the measure of your activity,is it?

It's the quality that counts,not the quantity.

NoMoreTails wrote:

Matthew wrote:

NoMoreTails wrote:

But I've often said I think they should have replaced Perry after Frontiers, still do. .

You know what, NMT. You might have actually succeeded in changing my mind about something. All these repetitive arguments haven't been in vain....

I know...I'm still reeling myself....

Matthew wrote:

NoMoreTails wrote:

Matthew wrote:

NoMoreTails wrote:

But I've often said I think they should have replaced Perry after Frontiers, still do. .

You know what, NMT. You might have actually succeeded in changing my mind about something. All these repetitive arguments haven't been in vain....

I know...I'm still reeling myself....

Grab the pitchforks and torches, guys!

Matthew wrote:

Red13JoePa wrote:
If he COULDN'T, what the hell was with recording Against The Wall in '88?

And a good point from the doppelganger too....

Bleep you.

Me and him see eye-to-eye on a lot of shit.

Red13JoePa wrote:

Matthew wrote:

Red13JoePa wrote:
If he COULDN'T, what the hell was with recording Against The Wall in '88?

And a good point from the doppelganger too....

Bleep you.

Me and him see eye-to-eye on a lot of shit.

Tell me about it...

Must be like talking to the mirror sometimes....

*Laura wrote:Look at it this way,NMT.You have only a bit over 1000 posts in 2 years,does that mean you live in a cave with squirrels and chipmunks?

And I have another 7000+ under the moniker Red13JoePa

*Laura wrote:I think you live and work just like everybody else.Your public presence here is not the measure of your activity,is it?
It's the quality that counts,not the quantity.

If I were a renowned professional message board poster it would be, and I'd have a prolific output relative to Perry's musical output over the last decade. But thanks for the commendation for the quality of my posts.