Religion & Morality

[verslibre]

I've only heard Strobel summarize his story without a lot of details

Considering everything you already said about the guy, it sounds like you're letting all the hot air out of your balloon!

[conversationpc]

Gotta say this too -- the material I've watched from him doesn't really seem to come from the perspective of an intellectual atheist -- it's rather fluffy and easy to dispute. I know some people feel his stuff is written more for Christians than for serious doubters, and I can definitely see that.

It seems to me like you're being skeptical simply for the sake of being skeptical. It's obvious from the writing style of his books that he isn't attempting them to be an in-depth theological or scientific treatise.

[Rip Rokken]

I think the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a combination of wish-thinking, miscredited intuition, and the placebo effect of adrenaline and dopamine.

Rip, you took some offense to what Stu said to you earlier in this thread about perhaps it's your own fault for not having faith. Don't you think what you're saying above here is pretty much the same type of statement coming back the other direction? If it's wrong to tell someone who's lost faith that perhaps they need look at themselves instead of blaming God, doesn't it hold true that it's also wrong to tell someone who DOES believe that their perception of faith is nothing more than what you said above? I'm just sayin'...

No, I wasn't offended in the least... I think it's clear from what was said:

Maybe the fault isn't with God...but with you?

That's EXACTLY what religion always does - points the finger back at the person instead of God or those in authority. It's potentially the most emotionally and psychologically damaging aspect of religion when things don't work out as promised, because some people beat themselves up pretty bad trying to figure out why they can't feel or hear God anymore. When it's sweet, it can seem pretty sweet, but if that placebo effect ever starts wearing off, you're in for an emotional roller-coaster.

Besides the fact that Stu's a great guy, I just can't really don't relate to getting offended by "hot-button" topics that are like minefields to navigate out of the fear of offending people. I recognize that it happens, sure -- I think society is wayyyyyyyyy too thin-skinned, and I see that as a weakness I don't care to adopt. Yes, I can be offended, but not by discussion of ideas. In those, I'm more likely to just find someone else "offensive", lol, but they don't rattle my cage. If I get stirred up in a response, it doesn't mean I was offended -- I just seized the outstretched paw.

Anyway, to your point about the parallels in what Stu and I said, I disagree. My opinions on the Holy Spirit were based on my own experiences, and sure - I personally believe they go across the board but I wasn't trying to suggest that Christians have a problem that needs to be corrected. If it works for them, go for it.

[Rip Rokken]

I've only heard Strobel summarize his story without a lot of details

Considering everything you already said about the guy, it sounds like you're letting all the hot air out of your balloon!

I don't think I've said that much -- not much I can say. I've only heard his story as he summarizes it in soundbyte form. I've watched all 3 of his "Case For..." videos (and one twice), and read some excerpts from his books, and my opinion is they were very simplistic and full of holes. I've read some other opinions that agree with mine - that they don't seem to be written for serious skeptics, but maybe cater more to Christians to make them feel better about their beliefs. Now I did say earlier (somewhere, probably in this thread or the Amy Winehouse one), that believers can be intellectually lazy, and I was one of them. In the past, I'd read a Josh McDowell book much like the Strobel books, or some explanations out of an apologetics book, and just rest on that knowledge. Basically, the experts had already done all the hard work, so I could just sit back and trust faith without digging further. No doubt that many believers do the same with Strobel's books and videos -- hey, he was a professional reporter who "investigated" the case for Jesus for over 2 years, and here's what he found to be true. Case closed.

I like to do a lot more research these days, especially on assertions from history or quotes of other people I hear which would "back my side" if true. I'm not in the least bit interested in replacing any old myths with new myths, applying my old way of thinking to my new beliefs. Case in point - I recently learned about the "incredible" parallels between the life of Apollonius of Tyana and Christ, but the debater I heard it from asserted that all those things were written and asserted to a little before the Christian writings came out. Doesn't take much digging to find out what we all know -- there's a bunch of B.S. floating around on the Internet.

[conversationpc]

I think the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a combination of wish-thinking, miscredited intuition, and the placebo effect of adrenaline and dopamine.

Rip, you took some offense to what Stu said to you earlier in this thread about perhaps it's your own fault for not having faith. Don't you think what you're saying above here is pretty much the same type of statement coming back the other direction? If it's wrong to tell someone who's lost faith that perhaps they need look at themselves instead of blaming God, doesn't it hold true that it's also wrong to tell someone who DOES believe that their perception of faith is nothing more than what you said above? I'm just sayin'...

No, I wasn't offended in the least... I think it's clear from what was said:

Maybe the fault isn't with God...but with you?

That's EXACTLY what religion always does - points the finger back at the person instead of God or those in authority. It's potentially the most emotionally and psychologically damaging aspect of religion when things don't work out as promised, because some people beat themselves up pretty bad trying to figure out why they can't feel or hear God anymore. When it's sweet, it can seem pretty sweet, but if that placebo effect ever starts wearing off, you're in for an emotional roller-coaster.

Besides the fact that Stu's a great guy, I just can't really don't relate to getting offended by "hot-button" topics that are like minefields to navigate out of the fear of offending people. I recognize that it happens, sure -- I think society is wayyyyyyyyy too thin-skinned, and I see that as a weakness I don't care to adopt. Yes, I can be offended, but not by discussion of ideas. In those, I'm more likely to just find someone else "offensive", lol, but they don't rattle my cage. If I get stirred up in a response, it doesn't mean I was offended -- I just seized the outstretched paw.

Anyway, to your point about the parallels in what Stu and I said, I disagree. My opinions on the Holy Spirit were based on my own experiences, and sure - I personally believe they go across the board but I wasn't trying to suggest that Christians have a problem that needs to be corrected. If it works for them, go for it.

I don't quite believe that you really believe yourself when you say you weren't offended in the least. I'm not saying you should have been totally offended in an out-of-control angry sort of way but in more of miffed sort of way. I agree that some people are way to thin-skinned. However, you have the other extreme also...People who are offended by nothing. Personally, both extremes drive me nuts. People who are offended by anything and everything are certainly hard to be around. But at least, to me, you know they care about SOMETHING. On the other hand, folks who are never offended by anything strike me as not really caring or being passionate enough about SOMETHING to be offended by anything. One of my favorite sayings is "He who is offended by nothing likely doesn't care enough about something to be offended in the first place."

[Rip Rokken]

I don't quite believe that you really believe yourself when you say you weren't offended in the least. I'm not saying you should have been totally offended in an out-of-control angry sort of way but in more of miffed sort of way. I agree that some people are way to thin-skinned. However, you have the other extreme also...People who are offended by nothing. Personally, both extremes drive me nuts. People who are offended by anything and everything are certainly hard to be around. But at least, to me, you know they care about SOMETHING. On the other hand, folks who are never offended by anything strike me as not really caring or being passionate enough about SOMETHING to be offended by anything. One of my favorite sayings is "He who is offended by nothing likely doesn't care enough about something to be offended in the first place."

The whole matter of offense is a topic in itself. No, truthfully -- I wasn't offended by what Stu said in the least. Yes, I know he was posing a serious question (and a valid one from a Christian point of view - no argument, there), but I got a kick out of it when I read it. I can take as well as I can give. Right now, there are two printouts on my office door likening me to a chimp and the joker in a deck of cards (with my face Photoshopped in, lol) - they've been there for weeks. They were posted by another guy after I hung up a printout of General Ursus from Planet of the Apes on his door (which he's since taken down after leaving it there for a week or so). He is rather ape-like and has a degree of power in the office, so the parallel was naturally an astute, scientific observation on my part. More than likely someone else will take down the pics on my door before I do - I smile when I see them. I just don't take myself that seriously, is all. I think a little measure of self-depreciating humor is good for anyone.

I understand where you're coming from on people who don't get offended by anything ever, and I totally agree. It just doesn't fit me though - when I say I don't get offended, or offend easily, I should probably find a better way of saying it... within understandable limits, my pride isn't easily hurt (offended) by words from others, or the perception of being personally questioned or attacked (even if I am truly being attacked). So I think that is more linked with pride than anything -- I try to remove pride from the equation. Like I said, there are limits of course -- anyone would be offended if they were seriously accused of being certain things (liars, thieves, pedophiles, etc.). But when discussing ideas, I take the more common types of personal attacks (calling people "idiots", "morons", etc.) for what they are -- just a tool used by people who can't substantiate their arguments very well. I'm very picky about what power I give anyone over me thru their words. Imagine how much better off we'd all be if people adopted "sticks and stones..." into their personal credo. I do get offended on behalf of others though, even over things that don't personally offend me. Ya know, call me an idiot, doesn't matter -- call my friend an idiot, I might take issue.

Outside of issues of pride, there are a huge number of things I find offensive, and they usually have to do with infractions of the "Golden Rule" (toward others or myself), many egregious, on every level of life. Whether it's someone doing something incredibly rude and risky in traffic, or someone running a human trafficking ring in another country, yes -- there is a lot to be pissed off about. I just try to minimize my stress over things like that to issues that I can directly control the outcome over. If I can't control it, I can still be offended, but don't dwell on it to any level that would cause me stress.

And as most people would be, I'm deeply offended at the behavior of others (usually directed at other people).

[Rip Rokken]

New article out today...

Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig Is Ready to Debate, but Finds Few Challengers

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/19/ch ... s-debates/

[conversationpc]

New article out today...

Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig Is Ready to Debate, but Finds Few Challengers

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/19/ch ... s-debates/

I got a kick out of the following statement in that article...

But David Silverman, president of the American Atheists, believes the reason behind the cancellation is much simpler.

"The fact is some people get tired of debating Christians because of the same arguments over and over again. And sometimes it’s a lot like arguing with a wall," he said.

Are you kidding me? The arguments are basically the SAME each time on BOTH sides of the issue.

[verslibre]

Are you kidding me? The arguments are basically the SAME each time on BOTH sides of the issue.

Silverman was projecting.

[parfait]

New article out today...

Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig Is Ready to Debate, but Finds Few Challengers

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/19/ch ... s-debates/

I got a kick out of the following statement in that article...

But David Silverman, president of the American Atheists, believes the reason behind the cancellation is much simpler.

"The fact is some people get tired of debating Christians because of the same arguments over and over again. And sometimes it’s a lot like arguing with a wall," he said.

Are you kidding me? The arguments are basically the SAME each time on BOTH sides of the issue.

No. One side is based on proof and fact. The other is based on man made fairytale book.

[verslibre]

Somebody missed the point. Imagine that.

[conversationpc]

New article out today...

Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig Is Ready to Debate, but Finds Few Challengers

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/19/ch ... s-debates/

I got a kick out of the following statement in that article...

But David Silverman, president of the American Atheists, believes the reason behind the cancellation is much simpler.

"The fact is some people get tired of debating Christians because of the same arguments over and over again. And sometimes it’s a lot like arguing with a wall," he said.

Are you kidding me? The arguments are basically the SAME each time on BOTH sides of the issue.

No. One side is based on proof and fact. The other is based on man made fairytale book.

I disagree with that but that wasn't even the point of the comment, numbskull.

Somebody missed the point. Imagine that.

Exactly.

[Rip Rokken]

BREAKING NEWS - the Holy Spirit Fails Again!!!



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/21/so ... ping-rape/



Apparently he didn't care to save those 3 women. Just like I've been saying, NO quality control by God. A good ol' lightning bolt would have done wonders for faith.

[Rip Rokken]

Another one. All too human... nothing divine dwelling inside.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... 04083.html

(CBS/AP) NEW YORK - Florida megachurch pastor Zachery Tims was found dead in a New York City hotel room on Friday, according to police.

A white powdery substance believed to be narcotics was discovered on the body, The Wall Street Journal reports.

New York City police said 42-year-old Orlando pastor was found dead on the floor of a room at the W Hotel in Times Square late Friday afternoon. There was no criminal activity suspected. The medical examiner will determine the cause of death.

His body was discovered by a hotel worker trying to check the minibar, the Journal reports.

According to his church's website and Facebook page, Tims was the senior pastor of New Destiny Christian Center in Apopka, Fla., which is one of the largest congregations in Central Florida. He also hosted and appeared on Christian television and radio programs.

In an article posted online Sunday, The Orlando Sun-Sentinel reported that the church had more than 7,000 members. Tims started the church in 1996. The congregation grew quickly and in 2005, the church built a $3.4 million, 34,000-square-foot youth center. The paper also reported that Tims had been in and out of jail as a young man and hoped the center would keep youngsters away from drugs and crime.

Church members and others posted a flurry of messages mourning the loss of the popular pastor on Facebook and Twitter late Sunday.

In 2009, Tims and his wife Riva divorced after he admitted to a year-long affair with a stripper. The couple had been married for 15 years, the Journal reports.

[majik]

Is there infinity ?

[Rick]

Is there infinity ?

Yes, it's by Journey.

[majik]

Is there infinity ?

Yes, it's by Journey.

Haha, I like it and I have the cd also, so yes infinity does exist, is there any other evidence for infinity ?

[Don]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

[Don]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

[steveo777]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

I think by now God is old, perhaps senile and use of such technology would be a bitch.

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

Just kidding with ya, I sometimes use a tomtom its a piece of crap so no he probably doesn't use one. Are you saying god is more evidence of infinty ?

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

I think by now God is old, perhaps senile and use of such technology would be a bitch.

" I think by now " well thats interesting, so when did NOW begin and when will it end its always NOW, so yes it could be evidence for infinity, its infinitely now. Is there anything else that points to the fact of infinity.

[steveo777]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

I think by now God is old, perhaps senile and use of such technology would be a bitch.

" I think by now " well thats interesting, so when did NOW begin and when will it end its always NOW, so yes it could be evidence for infinity, its infinitely now. Is there anything else that points to the fact of infinity.

It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being. That said, when I see people going through pain in life and natural and other disasters, I question the motives of said superior being. If there is a God, having such absolute power would potentially corrupt. If he does exist does he love us and with so much power at his/her/it's disposal, why would this entity allow so much suffering in the world? Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery. I've watched some really great people never get a break in life, yet also seen ones who seem to be nothing but evil get all the breaks.

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

I think by now God is old, perhaps senile and use of such technology would be a bitch.

" I think by now " well thats interesting, so when did NOW begin and when will it end its always NOW, so yes it could be evidence for infinity, its infinitely now. Is there anything else that points to the fact of infinity.

It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being. That said, when I see people going through pain in life and natural and other disasters, I question the motives of said superior being. If there is a God, having such absolute power would potentially corrupt. If he does exist does he love us and with so much power at his/her/it's disposal, why would this entity allow so much suffering in the world? Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery. I've watched some really great people never get a break in life, yet also seen ones who seem to be nothing but evil get all the breaks.

"It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being."

"That leads me to believe in a superior being"
To believe in this superior being would require you to be separate from such a being and that being to be separate from you, if it exists at all. But Now is self evident and are you ever at any point separate from it, how and when could that happen, in the future ? well now does not change and become future when future arrives wouldn't it appear Now. You appear now appears, now appears you appear, are they in fact one and the same appearance? Yes disasters appear to happen yet is now or you the awareness of now actually touched by any of it.

Edit:
" Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery."
Correct, nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why, and yes life is a huge mystery, are you that life that huge mystery,are you separate from that life. Life itself is watching Life itself. More evidence of infinity perhaps.

[steveo777]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

I think by now God is old, perhaps senile and use of such technology would be a bitch.

" I think by now " well thats interesting, so when did NOW begin and when will it end its always NOW, so yes it could be evidence for infinity, its infinitely now. Is there anything else that points to the fact of infinity.

It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being. That said, when I see people going through pain in life and natural and other disasters, I question the motives of said superior being. If there is a God, having such absolute power would potentially corrupt. If he does exist does he love us and with so much power at his/her/it's disposal, why would this entity allow so much suffering in the world? Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery. I've watched some really great people never get a break in life, yet also seen ones who seem to be nothing but evil get all the breaks.

"It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being."

"That leads me to believe in a superior being"
To believe in this superior being would require you to be separate from such a being and that being to be separate from you, if it exists at all. But Now is self evident and are you ever at any point separate from it, how and when could that happen, in the future ? well now does not change and become future when future arrives wouldn't it appear Now. You appear now appears, now appears you appear, are they in fact one and the same appearance? Yes disasters appear to happen yet is now or you the awareness of now actually touched by any of it.

Not for now. Sure, I have been touched by a variety of things in the past. At this time I am not dying or experiencing any personal earthquakes, floods or tornadoes...no, but I did have a near disaster in trying to get to a toilet quickly enough, in the mall the other day.

[Rip Rokken]

It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being. That said, when I see people going through pain in life and natural and other disasters, I question the motives of said superior being. If there is a God, having such absolute power would potentially corrupt. If he does exist does he love us and with so much power at his/her/it's disposal, why would this entity allow so much suffering in the world? Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery. I've watched some really great people never get a break in life, yet also seen ones who seem to be nothing but evil get all the breaks.

The debate over the existence of God is pretty popular these days, but it's almost useless. The theists have to take the argument so far out into the cosmos to come close to making an argument, that it says something to me. I really never seeing anyone debating whether a "personal God" exists -- one that is actively involved in the affairs of men. I think that's where they would really fail just on probability alone. For all the people that credit God for helping them make touchdowns, pass tests, get a girlfriend, etc.... there are an overwhelming number of people suffering with far worse needs in the world, to the point that thinking God is catering to our ridiculous needs seems, well... ridiculous.

I have no clue if an intelligent creator exists or not, but I'm pretty firmly convinced that there's no real evidence of a personal God who wants to know us, wants us to him him, or intervenes in our lives. I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore.

[Don]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

Just kidding with ya, I sometimes use a tomtom its a piece of crap so no he probably doesn't use one. Are you saying god is more evidence of infinty ?

A creator could be out there stuck on a giant track that brings him around and around. Traveling great distances but never seeing it more than perpetual motion might be considered experiencing infinty on a controlled scale, I guess.

[majik]

It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being. That said, when I see people going through pain in life and natural and other disasters, I question the motives of said superior being. If there is a God, having such absolute power would potentially corrupt. If he does exist does he love us and with so much power at his/her/it's disposal, why would this entity allow so much suffering in the world? Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery. I've watched some really great people never get a break in life, yet also seen ones who seem to be nothing but evil get all the breaks.

The debate over the existence of God is pretty popular these days, but it's almost useless. The theists have to take the argument so far out into the cosmos to come close to making an argument, that it says something to me. I really never seeing anyone debating whether a "personal God" exists -- one that is actively involved in the affairs of men. I think that's where they would really fail just on probability alone. For all the people that credit God for helping them make touchdowns, pass tests, get a girlfriend, etc.... there are an overwhelming number of people suffering with far worse needs in the world, to the point that thinking God is catering to our ridiculous needs seems, well... ridiculous.

I have no clue if an intelligent creator exists or not, but I'm pretty firmly convinced that there's no real evidence of a personal God who wants to know us, wants us to him him, or intervenes in our lives. I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore.

I think this was made clear about 12 pages ago. What you are trying to say now I'm not really sure.

" I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore"
Common sense is the inherent functioning of the intelligence that you are, an intelligence that is beyond learning and prior to that which is learned. Of course you are never separate from it nor it from you. Isn't that the same underlying intelligence that is evidently functioning what we call universe, when were you ever separate from it, never.

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

Just kidding with ya, I sometimes use a tomtom its a piece of crap so no he probably doesn't use one. Are you saying god is more evidence of infinty ?

A creator could be out there stuck on a giant track that brings him around and around. Traveling great distances but never seeing it more than perpetual motion might be considered experiencing infinty on a controlled scale, I guess.

Thats fantasy is it.