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Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

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Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:39 pm
by Ehwmatt
I'm on record as not being much of a college fan, but I do tend to watch the bowl games (especially since this time of year usually means I'm scouting the highly touted prospects, given the Browns perennially high draft position). Solid game tonight between Oklahoma State and Stanford. I watched every snap because it featured two of the most highly touted prospects in the coming draft, Andrew Luck and Justin Blackmon.

Justin Blackmon will be an elite wide receiver in the NFL and I can only hope the Browns get a crack at him drafting at #4. He's big, strong, runs good routes, is a beast for yards after the catch, and appears to have a good head on his shoulders. Very impressive. Stanford had absolutely no answer for him.

As for the much-hyped Andrew Luck, he got slightly outplayed by Oklahoma State's 28-year-old minor league baseball journeyman turned college QB Brandon Weeden. Luck's team ultimately lost the game after his FG kicker choked on two field goals, but Luck was not as clutch as Weeden in the end (his FG kicker's choking notwithstanding). Honestly, I'm not overly impressed. I think the kid is a solid talent, but I really don't see what everyone else seems to see. I don't see him becoming a top 3 QB in the league. It's almost unfair the way he's been hyped. Saint John/Dan compared him to Phillip Rivers, and I think that's a pretty apt comparison at this point. That's probably about the ceiling I'd give him right now, too.

In the end, a good entertaining game.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:43 pm
by YoungJRNY
Great game. Loved it. Even though this featured 2 different styles of offense, one of being a quick-strike offense and the other a power run game being managed by the top QB in the country, there were actually some HARD hits during this game (yes, even MULTIPLE helmet to helmet shots that weren't even called.) After witnessing the nastiness of the Oregon game that displayed such a lack of defense, it was refreshing to see these two defense's hit hard in the midst of a very tough task in stopping profile offense's. Good to see the chess match as well.

I do have to disagree with Matt on Luck. I've watched Andrew Luck this season and he just SCREAMS Peyton Manning. How odd the whole situation is with Indianapolis having the #1 draft pick and with Manning's career in flux with a neck injury. Luck has it all. Smarts, precision, accuracy, arm-strength and the ability to really understand the situation and not making the mistake. He really understands the game of football and it shows in the overall game plan. He isn't afraid to take charge and puts the offense in his knowledge of changing plays at the line of scrimmage and understands what he sees. Luck MUST go to a team that knows how to run the football with power since this is what Stanford's offense is all about and he runs it quite flawlessly. A true NFL system. Luck is NFL ready even though all the yards and flash looked to be on Oklahoma St.'s QB all night due to the quick-strike system.

Oklahoma St. was a different style but a treat to watch. You just know when there is a beast on the field amongst men and time and time again, Oklahoma's enormous WR Blackmon (who reminds me of Anquan Boldin') had one helluva performance and most pro scouts should take notice of his elite performance on a National Stage and in crunch time.

Stanford's kicker is probably the ugliest player on campus. Yanking 2 FG's wide left with the game on the line in regulation and another in O.T to force Oklahoma St. to atleast try for a T.D to win it. If anything is concerned, watching college's playoff system in action just reminds me of how much I HATE it. Too many holes in the system, but that can be said for the whole BCS shit that is college. Great game nonetheless. True future NFL studs in the making up-front and center stage for this one.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:48 pm
by S2M
Quite simply, you could be the most talented QB in the world....if you go to a shit hole team - you will whither and die. And usually those type of QBs go Top 3 in the draft to the shit hole team....there is nothing more to be said on the topic. If Indy drafts Luck, they will be sucking for the next big name next year....Rodgers fell into a good situation, and so did Brady. Bradford, Leinart, Newton....etc. didn't. Case closed.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:38 am
by Red13JoePa
Who didn't know that kicker was gonna miss that last one. Saucer eyed. Go for more yards there.
Harbaugh would've won that game.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:07 am
by Ehwmatt
Red13JoePa wrote:Who didn't know that kicker was gonna miss that last one. Saucer eyed. Go for more yards there.
Harbaugh would've won that game.


As soon as they said he was a red shirt freshman, I knew the big choke was coming.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:08 am
by Hollywood
S2M wrote:Quite simply, you could be the most talented QB in the world....if you go to a shit hole team - you will whither and die. And usually those type of QBs go Top 3 in the draft to the shit hole team....there is nothing more to be said on the topic. If Indy drafts Luck, they will be sucking for the next big name next year....Rodgers fell into a good situation, and so did Brady. Bradford, Leinart, Newton....etc. didn't. Case closed.


Like when the Colts drafted Peyton Manning and they had been 16-0 for like twenty years straight and he just happened to go to a great team. Oh yeah, the Colts were 1-15 the year before he got there and they became a consistent playoff team and won a Super Bowl with him. It was sad to watch him wither away.

Drew Brees went to a horrible Chargers team and they became a playoff team until he left and Rivers took over. He then to the Aints to a great team and a Super Bowl Championship.

Cowboys were terrible until they got Aikman, Smith, and Irvin.

Buffalo was terrible until they got Kelly and have been pretty terrible uniformly since he left.

Bengals improved with having Dalton this year in the toughest division in football.

The Broncos were not a good organization until they had Elway.

Stafford, now healthy has taken a Detroit team to the playoffs who have been terrible for over a decade.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:20 am
by YoungJRNY
Ehwmatt wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:Who didn't know that kicker was gonna miss that last one. Saucer eyed. Go for more yards there.
Harbaugh would've won that game.


As soon as they said he was a red shirt freshman, I knew the big choke was coming.


Yep. I called it as well. They said "and the spotlight is now on a redshirt, freshman kicker." I laughed and said he's yanking it, no question in front of a National Audience. YANK! Not once, but twice.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:24 am
by YoungJRNY
S2M wrote:Quite simply, you could be the most talented QB in the world....if you go to a shit hole team - you will whither and die. And usually those type of QBs go Top 3 in the draft to the shit hole team....there is nothing more to be said on the topic. If Indy drafts Luck, they will be sucking for the next big name next year....Rodgers fell into a good situation, and so did Brady. Bradford, Leinart, Newton....etc. didn't. Case closed.



It takes good GM's and good scouts come draft day not only in one season, but year after year to build the team around a franchise quarterback. This is where franchise's fail year after year and that's the exact reason why Philadelphia and teams like the Redskins all those years and even the Jets failed miserably in trying to build team chemistry. It takes years to build around a certain system and players and some teams get too itchy and change head coach's, fire their coordinators and before you know it, hello 4-12. I'm a FIRM believer in the NFL Draft and building your team in the fox-hole that way. Look at the Patriots and Steelers. Practically ALL starters and ALL Super Bowl championships came from the make-up of draft day starters.

Re: Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:12 am
by Enigma869
Ehwmatt wrote:Justin Blackmon will be an elite wide receiver in the NFL and I can only hope the Browns get a crack at him drafting at #4.


Drafting wide receivers high in the draft almost never works out. It's a position that I would never touch in the first round...even if it weren't a top 10 pick. Look at a guy like Dez Bryant. The guy "slipped" in the draft and was still taken late in the first round. He is probably the fourth option on the Cowgirls, behind Witten, Austin, and now Robinson. The NFL draft is replete with complete busts in the first round and for whatever reason, many of them are receivers. The safest position seems to an an Offensive Lineman (those top lineman are very rarely busts) or a Defensive Lineman.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:45 am
by S2M
Hollywood wrote:Like when the Colts drafted Peyton Manning and they had been 16-0 for like twenty years straight and he just happened to go to a great team. Oh yeah, the Colts were 1-15 the year before he got there and they became a consistent playoff team and won a Super Bowl with him. It was sad to watch him wither away.

Drew Brees went to a horrible Chargers team and they became a playoff team until he left and Rivers took over. He then to the Aints to a great team and a Super Bowl Championship.

Cowboys were terrible until they got Aikman, Smith, and Irvin. - I'm glad you added Irvin and Smith. Aikman is a below average QB
Buffalo was terrible until they got Kelly and have been pretty terrible uniformly since he left. Kelly isn't even a HOF QB.
Bengals improved with having Dalton this year in the toughest division in football. They went 2-4 in division. If they were 4-2, or 5-1...you'd have a point.
The Broncos were not a good organization until they had Elway. - Actually, Denver sucked even with Elway. They didn't win SBs until Terrell Davis joined.
Stafford, now healthy has taken a Detroit team to the playoffs who have been terrible for over a decade.

Re: Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:19 am
by Ehwmatt
Enigma869 wrote:
Ehwmatt wrote:Justin Blackmon will be an elite wide receiver in the NFL and I can only hope the Browns get a crack at him drafting at #4.


Drafting wide receivers high in the draft almost never works out. It's a position that I would never touch in the first round...even if it weren't a top 10 pick. Look at a guy like Dez Bryant. The guy "slipped" in the draft and was still taken late in the first round. He is probably the fourth option on the Cowgirls, behind Witten, Austin, and now Robinson. The NFL draft is replete with complete busts in the first round and for whatever reason, many of them are receivers. The safest position seems to an an Offensive Lineman (those top lineman are very rarely busts) or a Defensive Lineman.


AJ Green begs to disagree. I think Blackmon will pan out quite well. Bryant is an idiot.

Re: Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:17 am
by Enigma869
Ehwmatt wrote:
AJ Green begs to disagree. I think Blackmon will pan out quite well. Bryant is an idiot.


Matt...

I didn't say that no first round picks at WR come through. I simply said that the history isn't good. For every AJ Green, there are a whole slew of guys who didn't make it. Also, as much as I like AJ, let's not put the guy in the Hall of Fame quite yet. Dude has been in the NFL for all of 20 minutes, so let's see how things shake out. Darrius Heyward-Bey and Michael Crabtree were both top 10 picks a couple of years ago, and they're both stiffs! Ted Ginn Jr. was a top 10 pick and has been nothing more than a special teams player in the NFL. Craig Davis (yes...I know...nobody has ever even heard of the guy) and Anthony Gonzalez were first round picks that same season. Not to mention, you're from Cleveland. The last time they picked a WR high was Braylon Edwards (who was picked third). How did that work out for you? Dude has completely sucked his entire career. Troy Williamson (who?) and Mike Williams were also top 10 picks at WR that season. Pretty horrid top three wideout picks for an NFL draft. The immortal Mark Clayton and Matt Jones rounded out that stellar first round and all were taken ahead of Roddy White that season! Reggie Williams (again...who?) was a top ten wideout pick the season before with guys like Michael Clayton and Rashaun Woods in the first round. I'm telling you...it's not a great history at all. If I were a GM, I would never touch a guy in the first round at that position. I remember when Terry Glenn came out of Ohio State many years ago. EVERYONE said this guy was going to be better than Jerry Rice. The Patriots drafted him and he sucked his entire career It's a tossup for me which position has had more stiffs...QB or WR, but it's pretty close between them.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:14 am
by YoungJRNY
The Steelers snagged Antonio Brown in the 6th round in 2009's draft, Mike Wallace in the 3rd round of the 2009 NFL draft and Emmanuel Sanders in the 3rd round of the 2010 draft. I don't think it's just WR's, but mostly all 1st round draft picks that end up busting. Most teams spend so much time looking for the perfect #1 selection for their team that they end up reaching and paying the price for mediocre 2nd and 3rd days. The value for a player really comes into the later rounds because price goes down and there are still phenomenal athletes everywhere on the board. Aside from maybe the top 10 players in the country, it's all needs and best available at that point or what a team is looking for.

Re: Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:49 am
by Ehwmatt
Enigma869 wrote:
Ehwmatt wrote:
AJ Green begs to disagree. I think Blackmon will pan out quite well. Bryant is an idiot.


Matt...

I didn't say that no first round picks at WR come through. I simply said that the history isn't good. For every AJ Green, there are a whole slew of guys who didn't make it. Also, as much as I like AJ, let's not put the guy in the Hall of Fame quite yet. Dude has been in the NFL for all of 20 minutes, so let's see how things shake out. Darrius Heyward-Bey and Michael Crabtree were both top 10 picks a couple of years ago, and they're both stiffs! Ted Ginn Jr. was a top 10 pick and has been nothing more than a special teams player in the NFL. Craig Davis (yes...I know...nobody has ever even heard of the guy) and Anthony Gonzalez were first round picks that same season. Not to mention, you're from Cleveland. The last time they picked a WR high was Braylon Edwards (who was picked third). How did that work out for you? Dude has completely sucked his entire career. Troy Williamson (who?) and Mike Williams were also top 10 picks at WR that season. Pretty horrid top three wideout picks for an NFL draft. The immortal Mark Clayton and Matt Jones rounded out that stellar first round and all were taken ahead of Roddy White that season! Reggie Williams (again...who?) was a top ten wideout pick the season before with guys like Michael Clayton and Rashaun Woods in the first round. I'm telling you...it's not a great history at all. If I were a GM, I would never touch a guy in the first round at that position. I remember when Terry Glenn came out of Ohio State many years ago. EVERYONE said this guy was going to be better than Jerry Rice. The Patriots drafted him and he sucked his entire career It's a tossup for me which position has had more stiffs...QB or WR, but it's pretty close between them.


Compelling evidence, for sure John. But two things: 1. This is (sadly) a new, pass-heavy NFL and 2. The Browns wide receiver corps are MISERABLE, despite our trying to snag receivers the "right way" the last several years in the later draft rounds.

Blackmon seems to have a good head on his shoulders (i.e., not a diva like Crabtree, Bryant, or Braylon Dropwards), is a bona fide (college-level, hopefully pro-level) playmaker, and we simply need someone like he could potentially be in the worst way. In recent years, the Browns have traded down a few of their top-10 picks to accumulate more picks. We need to take a shot on some highly-touted talent this year. Two years ago, we stayed at 7 and drafted Joe Haden, who is developing into a very good (but not yet elite) CB for the Browns.

We also probably need a QB unless McCoy makes huge strides next year (if he gets to play), but I'd much rather take the chance on Blackmon than on someone like Robert Griffin III. He simply fails to impress me with his run-first mentality and small body frame. So, I give Blackmon the nod. The fact that he's not an idiot (as far as I know) encourages me to take a chance on drafting a position in which high picks have a tenuous history at best. Then, we can hopefully address our right tackle needs with our second first-round pick (Atlanta's, given in exchange for Julio Jones last year).

Also, as an aside, Anthony Gonzalez went to my high school, was a cool guy, and it's been disappointing to see his career flame out in injuries. He was solid during his rookie year and woulda been a great possession receiver.

Re: Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:45 am
by Enigma869
Ehwmatt wrote:
We also probably need a QB unless McCoy makes huge strides next year .


Now, you're onto something. The NFL comes down to QB play. If you have a good one, you're going to win a whole lot more than you lose. If you have a bad one, it's hopeless unless you have a VERY stout defense, and even then, it's up in the air if you can win it all (The 2001 Ravens are the exception to the rule, but clearly not the norm). Tom Brady won three Super Bowls with Troy Brown, David Givens, and David Patten as his receivers, and I'm reasonably certain that most people outside of Boston have never heard of two of those guys. Also, Wes Welker was drafted by the Chargers, played in Miami for a couple of years, and yet, nobody ever heard of the guy until Tom Brady started throwing the football to him.

Re: Andrew Luck/Stanford v Oklahoma State

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:26 am
by YoungJRNY
Also, Wes Welker was drafted by the Chargers, played in Miami for a couple of years, and yet, nobody ever heard of the guy until Tom Brady started throwing the football to him.


The very early introducing to Wes Welker for me was in 2006. I was in attendance when the Steelers opened that season on a Thursday Night game after their Super Bowl win in 2005 and opened against Miami. The Dolphins didn't really have any weapons but I will never forget Welker destroying us. We simply couldn't catch him all night and he made one helluva impression me and how we couldn't stop that jittery style, especially on kick and punt returns. He made 4 catch's for 68 yards and averaged 16.8 yards a catch. He also took 3 punt returns and netted 80 yards, tearing us apart. Bellichick obviously saw something in him and made a brilliant move in acquiring him.