Who Do I Root For Now?

[BlackWall]

Okay, I'm almost done with Sterling's book(great read, btw), but more and more, the thought keeps occuring to me, whose corner am I in now?? Before I go any further, let me just state that I'm sure this wasn't Sterling's intention, and I'm drawing my own conclusion here, but..

To be honest, for the longest time, I've probably been more of a supporter of Dennis. I mean, I could certainly see where the other guys would have been frustrated with some of the directions he wanted to go in, but I always felt that the way he was dismissed from a band that he co-created and made commercially successful was unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten use to both camps doing their own thing at this point, and maybe it's for the better, but deep down, I always had the feeling that Dennis was wronged by the way things happened.

Now.. I'm not so sure that I can honestly stand behind any one member of the band 100%, which is natural, but I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way is- at the end of the day, I'm not sure if any of these guys are people I'd want to go have a beer with.. I don't know; I guess at this point, I come the closest to relating to Tommy as a person, but even he has done some questionable things over the years. I probably feel the most sympathy for J.Y.; I'm sure we can't really begin to understand the frustration and disappointment of always having to dance to either Dennis or Tommy's tune in order to have the band going.

What's really important when it comes to appreciating an artist's work? Do you simply admire the art, even if the artist is someone you may not relate to in real life? Or even like as a person? I guess the issue at hand is that I've always felt the need to relate on some level to the people who are creating the art.. Is this naive? I guess it's possible to relate to how someone might have felt at a particular moment in time when they were inspired to write a song; paint a picture; etc, but not the creator in general. Lol, I think maybe Dennis answered these questions best in his lyric to "Fallen Angel". Sometimes we really do put unrealistic expecations on the people we choose to admire, and with expectations riding so high, eventually everyone is going to come up short.

[Ehwmatt]

Just enjoy the music

[LordofDaRing]

Not sure if you should root for anyone here. I think both teams are losing in the long run...IMO.

[chowhall]

Not sure if you should root for anyone here. I think both teams are losing in the long run...IMO.

They are all flawed human beings. They are right and wrong at the same time. I think this is the only way for things to continue. As you get older, you are less likely to compromise. As far as both teams losing, I disagree. Both teams are bringing in more aggregate money this way then they would if they were all still together. A Dennis lead Styx would not bring in twice or even 1.5 times the money that the current version of Styx is bringing in. To the casual fan, Styx is still going.

[Blue Falcon]

They're all adults and all have some culpability for what befell Styx. No one is ever completely innocent. Having said that, I am a bit more on Dennis' side than the others, and that may be because he has taken the high road when referring to his former bandmates...something that JY clearly has not done. I'm sure JY was frustrated under Dennis' heel for all those years too...but hey, why didn't he leave and form The James Young Project?

Dennis was likely a control freak, (even the "precious" Chuck Panozzo railed about Dennis being a "tyrant"...methinks Chuck should have met a certain Saddam Hussein before spouting off adjectives like that) but any of those guys could have quit. Heck, they could have dragged him behind the studio and pummeled him senseless when he first brought up the idea of Kilroy...but they shut up, played on the album, and then trashed it when it didn't sell as well as their previous albums.

Dennis does deserve blame for the Kilroy tour, however. It was his idea to use the stupid costumes and try to make a Broadway show out of it, instead of just sticking to a rock tour. I think it was the Kilroy tour, and not the album, that really started to tear the band up.

All and still...Kilroy came out 25 years ago, and these guys ought to be able to be real men and bury the hatchet by now.

[Toph]

They're all adults and all have some culpability for what befell Styx. No one is ever completely innocent. Having said that, I am a bit more on Dennis' side than the others, and that may be because he has taken the high road when referring to his former bandmates...something that JY clearly has not done. I'm sure JY was frustrated under Dennis' heel for all those years too...but hey, why didn't he leave and form The James Young Project?

Dennis was likely a control freak, (even the "precious" Chuck Panozzo railed about Dennis being a "tyrant"...methinks Chuck should have met a certain Saddam Hussein before spouting off adjectives like that) but any of those guys could have quit. Heck, they could have dragged him behind the studio and pummeled him senseless when he first brought up the idea of Kilroy...but they shut up, played on the album, and then trashed it when it didn't sell as well as their previous albums.

Dennis does deserve blame for the Kilroy tour, however. It was his idea to use the stupid costumes and try to make a Broadway show out of it, instead of just sticking to a rock tour. I think it was the Kilroy tour, and not the album, that really started to tear the band up.

All and still...Kilroy came out 25 years ago, and these guys ought to be able to be real men and bury the hatchet by now.

OMG, Kilroy is 25 years old....damn I am getting so freakin' old!

Was the 15th anniversary of the Paradise Theatre tour just like yesterday....?

[kipthekid]

Cyclorama is now old enough to be relegated to discount bins - where it's still available.

IMHO, the 3 mainstays - Dennis, Tommy and JY all share culpability in:

* Preventing the band from being as big as it could have been and
* Tarnishing, to an extent, it's legacy

For me, Dennis was both the best and worst thing to ever happen to Styx. He was and is, overall, easily the most talented member of the band. The best vocalist and, when inspired and not self-indulgent, the best songwriter. His song-writing maturity from the Wooden Nickle years to the first few years on A&M shaped Styx as a formidable force in American music and, for a brief time, on the global music scene. His odd (he'd never really done this before - early hints at 'balads' had much more of a rock feel - Lonely Child, Ballerina) foray into Barry Manilow/Air Supply territory with Babe and First Time almost derailed the band...but the addition of horns and a slight reduction of bombast made the direction of Cornerstone and, more specifically, Paradise Theater, seem like a brilliant one. Paradise Theater seemed to be the initial step in helping the band reach Fleetwood Mac/Genesis-level heights. I know fans of Styx' "big 4" (Equinox, Crystal Ball, GI and POE) didn't like it...but their audience was greatly expanded. Critics slowly started (re) embracing them. Then Kilroy happened. Rather than being their opus, it became their edsel. Poor production, terrible arranging, mediocre playing, awful song writing - all the way around - doomed the band. Dennis failed to successfully follow-up PT. Everything that has happened since has pailed badly in comparison.

With all of this being said. time should have healed all wounds. They appeared to...then BNW and the subsequent tour happened. When I think if BNW, it SEEMED like Tommy and JY were "more into it" than Dennis. Dennis, IMHO, contributed two quality songs - Goodbye to Roseland and Great Expectations (I know...alot of people didn't like this song - I think it's well written and interesting). They may be the best tunes on the record, but Dennis also gave us the mediocre "Fallen Angel," the God-awful "high times" and the bland "While there's still time." I listen to songs like "Save Me," "Crossing the Rubicon," "100 Years" and "Rain" and wonder "where were THESE songs when BNW was produced?" Dennis SHOULD have gone to LA to finish the album with Tommy and JY. Ok...he didn't. He wants to delay the tour. Tommy and JY don't. They go...Dennis is ready to join - LET HIM. IMHO, it was a colossal blunder not to let him join - or at least talk to him about a flexible arrangement moving forward. Let him keep his association with the band - let him access the "paradise theater" website and then the Styxworld site. Let Gowan stay in the band as well. Have Dennis play a key role on Cyclorama. Shutting him out and then JY insulting the intelligence of anyone who has listened to a Styx record by calling DDY "the other guy" and nonsensically poo pooing his contributions and hilariously claiming that Cycorama is the "best thing they've ever done" were huge mistakes. Producing one bad live album after another was idiotic. Offering Styx "rockers" was the ultimate in exploitive cynicism. Giving us an album of cover tunes was more superfluous blather. Tour if you must, but keep some (recording) artistic integrity intact.

Is Styx viable today? Depends upon one's definition. IMHO, it's a cash cow for Tommy and JY. They're milking $$ from Styx the way Oracle is milking $$ from PeopleSoft maintenance fees.

[styxfansite]

Cyclorama is now old enough to be relegated to discount bins - where it's still available.

IMHO, the 3 mainstays - Dennis, Tommy and JY all share culpability in:

* Preventing the band from being as big as it could have been and
* Tarnishing, to an extent, it's legacy

For me, Dennis was both the best and worst thing to ever happen to Styx. He was and is, overall, easily the most talented member of the band. The best vocalist and, when inspired and not self-indulgent, the best songwriter. His song-writing maturity from the Wooden Nickle years to the first few years on A&M shaped Styx as a formidable force in American music and, for a brief time, on the global music scene. His odd (he'd never really done this before - early hints at 'balads' had much more of a rock feel - Lonely Child, Ballerina) foray into Barry Manilow/Air Supply territory with Babe and First Time almost derailed the band...but the addition of horns and a slight reduction of bombast made the direction of Cornerstone and, more specifically, Paradise Theater, seem like a brilliant one. Paradise Theater seemed to be the initial step in helping the band reach Fleetwood Mac/Genesis-level heights. I know fans of Styx' "big 4" (Equinox, Crystal Ball, GI and POE) didn't like it...but their audience was greatly expanded. Critics slowly started (re) embracing them. Then Kilroy happened. Rather than being their opus, it became their edsel. Poor production, terrible arranging, mediocre playing, awful song writing - all the way around - doomed the band. Dennis failed to successfully follow-up PT. Everything that has happened since has pailed badly in comparison.

With all of this being said. time should have healed all wounds. They appeared to...then BNW and the subsequent tour happened. When I think if BNW, it SEEMED like Tommy and JY were "more into it" than Dennis. Dennis, IMHO, contributed two quality songs - Goodbye to Roseland and Great Expectations (I know...alot of people didn't like this song - I think it's well written and interesting). They may be the best tunes on the record, but Dennis also gave us the mediocre "Fallen Angel," the God-awful "high times" and the bland "While there's still time." I listen to songs like "Save Me," "Crossing the Rubicon," "100 Years" and "Rain" and wonder "where were THESE songs when BNW was produced?" Dennis SHOULD have gone to LA to finish the album with Tommy and JY. Ok...he didn't. He wants to delay the tour. Tommy and JY don't. They go...Dennis is ready to join - LET HIM. IMHO, it was a colossal blunder not to let him join - or at least talk to him about a flexible arrangement moving forward. Let him keep his association with the band - let him access the "paradise theater" website and then the Styxworld site. Let Gowan stay in the band as well. Have Dennis play a key role on Cyclorama. Shutting him out and then JY insulting the intelligence of anyone who has listened to a Styx record by calling DDY "the other guy" and nonsensically poo pooing his contributions and hilariously claiming that Cycorama is the "best thing they've ever done" were huge mistakes. Producing one bad live album after another was idiotic. Offering Styx "rockers" was the ultimate in exploitive cynicism. Giving us an album of cover tunes was more superfluous blather. Tour if you must, but keep some (recording) artistic integrity intact.

Is Styx viable today? Depends upon one's definition. IMHO, it's a cash cow for Tommy and JY. They're milking $$ from Styx the way Oracle is milking $$ from PeopleSoft maintenance fees.

I actually enjoyed "Fallen Angel" and "While there's still time", but that is just me I guess. Different people have different tastes for music.

[MtlLady]

Okay, I'm almost done with Sterling's book(great read, btw), but more and more, the thought keeps occuring to me, whose corner am I in now?? Before I go any further, let me just state that I'm sure this wasn't Sterling's intention, and I'm drawing my own conclusion here, but..

To be honest, for the longest time, I've probably been more of a supporter of Dennis. I mean, I could certainly see where the other guys would have been frustrated with some of the directions he wanted to go in, but I always felt that the way he was dismissed from a band that he co-created and made commercially successful was unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten use to both camps doing their own thing at this point, and maybe it's for the better, but deep down, I always had the feeling that Dennis was wronged by the way things happened.

Now.. I'm not so sure that I can honestly stand behind any one member of the band 100%, which is natural, but I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way is- at the end of the day, I'm not sure if any of these guys are people I'd want to go have a beer with.. I don't know; I guess at this point, I come the closest to relating to Tommy as a person, but even he has done some questionable things over the years. I probably feel the most sympathy for J.Y.; I'm sure we can't really begin to understand the frustration and disappointment of always having to dance to either Dennis or Tommy's tune in order to have the band going.

What's really important when it comes to appreciating an artist's work? Do you simply admire the art, even if the artist is someone you may not relate to in real life? Or even like as a person? I guess the issue at hand is that I've always felt the need to relate on some level to the people who are creating the art.. Is this naive? I guess it's possible to relate to how someone might have felt at a particular moment in time when they were inspired to write a song; paint a picture; etc, but not the creator in general. Lol, I think maybe Dennis answered these questions best in his lyric to "Fallen Angel". Sometimes we really do put unrealistic expecations on the people we choose to admire, and with expectations riding so high, eventually everyone is going to come up short.

The way I see it is that they all did what they could with the knowledge/maturity that they had at that time. When you look at what happened in black and white yes, it looks bad but I don't think anyone did anything to hurt each other on purpose - they were stuck in a vicious cycle of action/reaction.

I also remember that every good side to a person has to have an equal and opposite dark side. It's a law of nature - you can't fight it. A person's best asset can be his worst asset at the same time, just as you pointed out by saying that Denis was both the best and worst thing that happened to Styx. I tend to agree. A person who can reach in that far into his emotions and come out with the kind of lyrics that ring true with the common person has to be a very sensitive, enlightened person. Problem is, that kind of person is also more easily hurt. It's a double edged sword.

If you think about it, none of the guys from Styx, past and present, have gotten to where they are by being a nice guy all the time. They're human just like the rest of us.

Just my 2 cents.

[froy]

Not sure if you should root for anyone here. I think both teams are losing in the long run...IMO.

They are right and wrong at the same time. I think this is the only way for things to continue.

That's because you are a follower
Styx is as exciting as watching paint dry.
You happy Styx is the 3rd wheel on a triple bill?
That's a huge down grade from the past.

As you get older, you are less likely to compromise.

And many great opportunity's are missed.

As far as both teams losing, I disagree. Both teams are bringing in more aggregate money this way then they would if they were all still together.

Its not about the money
Its about the music
Styx has failed to deliver good music in the past 10 years
Not so with Dennis.

A Dennis lead Styx would not bring in twice or even 1.5 times the money that the current version of Styx is bringing in.

Because current Styx has burned out the name.
Paul McCartney could join Styx and it would still be worthless.

To the casual fan, Styx is still going.

Yea down the drain...

[Rockwriter]

Okay, I'm almost done with Sterling's book(great read, btw), but more and more, the thought keeps occuring to me, whose corner am I in now?? Before I go any further, let me just state that I'm sure this wasn't Sterling's intention, and I'm drawing my own conclusion here, but..

To be honest, for the longest time, I've probably been more of a supporter of Dennis. I mean, I could certainly see where the other guys would have been frustrated with some of the directions he wanted to go in, but I always felt that the way he was dismissed from a band that he co-created and made commercially successful was unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten use to both camps doing their own thing at this point, and maybe it's for the better, but deep down, I always had the feeling that Dennis was wronged by the way things happened.

Now.. I'm not so sure that I can honestly stand behind any one member of the band 100%, which is natural, but I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way is- at the end of the day, I'm not sure if any of these guys are people I'd want to go have a beer with.. I don't know; I guess at this point, I come the closest to relating to Tommy as a person, but even he has done some questionable things over the years. I probably feel the most sympathy for J.Y.; I'm sure we can't really begin to understand the frustration and disappointment of always having to dance to either Dennis or Tommy's tune in order to have the band going.

What's really important when it comes to appreciating an artist's work? Do you simply admire the art, even if the artist is someone you may not relate to in real life? Or even like as a person? I guess the issue at hand is that I've always felt the need to relate on some level to the people who are creating the art.. Is this naive? I guess it's possible to relate to how someone might have felt at a particular moment in time when they were inspired to write a song; paint a picture; etc, but not the creator in general. Lol, I think maybe Dennis answered these questions best in his lyric to "Fallen Angel". Sometimes we really do put unrealistic expecations on the people we choose to admire, and with expectations riding so high, eventually everyone is going to come up short.

You're right, it wasn't my intention to foster this kind of argument, but at the same time I knew it was inevitable. The truth is that if you start talking yourself out of liking someone's work because you realize they're not who you thought they were, then you'll have to throw away all of your CDs and records and tapes, all of your movies, and all of your books. Everyone who appears in the public eye has a public persona that is different from the private person to one degree or another. None of them are who you think they are.

I also think that people's greatest strengths and greatest weaknesses are often the same traits seen from different angles. Dennis' ego is undeniably part of what made him so effective in his prime, and a large part of why Styx succeeded, but yes, it's also his Achilles heel at times. Tommy's need to please people is part of his magic as a performer, but it also makes him largely unable to be a real leader because he can't make hard decisions that will alienate one side or another, which is why JY has to do all that stuff now. JY's formidable intellect and ability to analyze situations is the greatest strength he brings to his participation in Styx, more important in my opinion than his musical contributions, but it can also come off as cold and turn a lot of people off at times. As has been stated before, everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

As far as who we should root for now, my answer is the same as it has always been: Everyone. I continue to hope that everyone involved will do the best they can with what they've got left. To wish anything else for people who have brought me such happiness would make no sense to me.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[bugsymalone]

Whatever brought you to this band, or any other for that matter, is what you should be "rooting for." Personally what brought me to Styx were the powerful vocals of Dennis DeYoung. And, beyond that, the sound this band produced as a whole of their parts. So in my case, with the various break-ups they have undergone, I have always followed Dennis and where his music led me.

Everyone has a different perspective on what they love about this band and generally, from reading here at least, lets that form his or her opinion on both the past and the present. Certainly the commentary here reflects that.

While Sterling's book, well-researched as it was, opened a few windows on who these guys were and are, there are still plenty of closed ones, tightly shut, that might reveal more, but probably never will be opened.

Go with what you like, and, if you like some of it or all of it, from the beginnings to the present, what the book reveals about the individuals should not influence your enjoyment of the music the band created one way or the other. At least in my opinion it shouldn't.


Bugsy

[classicstyxfan]

I saynow is the time to root for whatever you can get outta these guys.....


If you really need some ONE to root for, I know McCain or Obama would love to have ya..... ( wait, Palin is the one who would say "ya"............ )

[kansas666]

Fun thread.

I read a lot of music biographys and Sterling's was one of my favorites. I have read it twice.

I think STYX' biggest mistake was getting rid of Derrik Sutton.

I enjoy music by a lot of bands of different genre's and I know very little about most of them personally; but I have been following STYX since Equinox came out. When you invest that much time into a band, plus you have the internet community, you begin to know a lot more than you probably wanted to about its members.

[Zan]

I think STYX' biggest mistake was getting rid of Derrik Sutton.

I don't believe "Styx" was the one responsible for getting rid of Sutton.

[Rockwriter]

I think STYX' biggest mistake was getting rid of Derrik Sutton.

I don't believe "Styx" was the one responsible for getting rid of Sutton.

Well, no doubt it was more one member's idea than some others, but ultimately they had a voting process at that time in which every man had an equal vote. So yes, in the end Styx fired Derek Sutton, even if that firing was driven by one particular member. The others sat silently and let it happen. Truth is, there were other issues brewing that had not yet come to a head. Sutton's policy was not to use the band's commercial success to force promoters into really steep deals. He felt that was a short-term business proposition that would come back to bite them when they were no longer on top. He was planning long-term, realizing that if Styx made fair deals with promoters when they were on top, those same promoters would be fair to them later on when they were no longer as big a draw. But some of the band members were agitating that Styx was not getting the same kinds of paydays that certain other bands were, and it was becoming an issue. I think that helped influence their thinking when it was time to decide whether to back Dennis in letting him go. They went out and hired Irving Azoff, thinking he could make them as big as The Eagles. They broke up within a year and a half of that. Funny how short-sighted they were, but it's typical of the rock and roll business.

I agree that it was one of the biggest mistakes the band ever made. You cannot overstate how important the management of Derek Sutton (along with the marketing skill of Jim Cahill) was in taking Styx as fas it it went. Without those two I think Styx could easily have been like Wishbone Ash - a potentially great band that made two or three great records that mid-charted, and then disappeared with barely a ripple. Before Sutton and Cahill came along, Styx was on the ragged edge of doing exactly that. They had a three album deal with A&M, and though 'Equinox' and 'Crystal Ball' had done all right, there was no huge single from either one, and neither one really made any kind of great sales that would justify an extension. If GI had not been the breakthrough, there's every possibility that Styx would have been dropped and that would have been that. Think about it - if that had happened, then the sum total of Styx' mainstream impact would have been "Lady", with a couple of minor follow-ups. That's what almost happened.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

Fun thread.

I read a lot of music biographys and Sterling's was one of my favorites. I have read it twice.

I think STYX' biggest mistake was getting rid of Derrik Sutton.

I enjoy music by a lot of bands of different genre's and I know very little about most of them personally; but I have been following STYX since Equinox came out. When you invest that much time into a band, plus you have the internet community, you begin to know a lot more than you probably wanted to about its members.

Thanks very much! I'm still always surprised when people say they have read the book multiple times already. I can still picture myself typing away in the tiny little office in my old house, with notes all over the place. I worked a real job sometimes back then as well, so a lot of times it would be late at night and I would be up there trying to catch up. It was one of those upstairs rooms in an old house with limited head space, so I had this tiny little irregular-shaped door that I had to duck to get into the office, and if I stood up too suddenly I would knock my head against the ceiling. Those are the conditions in which I wrote that book, so when I hear from people who have liked it so much I always kinda feel incredulous. Back then I was hoping it might do well enough to justify my having a writing career, so that eventually I could write full-time. It has done so much better than expected, has been so life-changing in such a variety of positive ways, that I can honestly just barely fathom it all. I can still scarcely believe I get to do some of the things I get to do because of it. So I hope everyone here knows how extremely, genuinely grateful I really am for all of the support and interest you have given the Styx book. I feel like that guy from Jerry Maguire . . . "I love EVERYBODY!" LOL.


Sterling