Maybe there will be a Live CD/DVD??

[pinkfloyd1973]

Exactly...I don't think Dennis can stop it...and I doubt Styx could do anything if Dennis recorded his shows and released Tommy's songs. In fact, if it were just a matter of who is given writing credits, I'm sure Styx would have stopped DENNIS from releasing Styx songs on his CD/DVD from his orchestra shows.

If you were paying attention to this (and other threads ad nauseum about this subject) you would've learned that as long as Dennis is listed as a co-writer, he won't have to ask permission to do these songs. THEREFORE any Styx songs he performed (and he wasn't doing BCM or "Renegade" or TMTOMH in the orchestra concerts) is allowed. He should let the current band known as Styx release the songs accreditied to him out on CD/DVD because it's a win/win situation

[Monker]

Exactly...I don't think Dennis can stop it...and I doubt Styx could do anything if Dennis recorded his shows and released Tommy's songs. In fact, if it were just a matter of who is given writing credits, I'm sure Styx would have stopped DENNIS from releasing Styx songs on his CD/DVD from his orchestra shows.

If you were paying attention to this (and other threads ad nauseum about this subject) you would've learned that as long as Dennis is listed as a co-writer, he won't have to ask permission to do these songs. THEREFORE any Styx songs he performed (and he wasn't doing BCM or "Renegade" or TMTOMH in the orchestra concerts) is allowed. He should let the current band known as Styx release the songs accreditied to him out on CD/DVD because it's a win/win situation

Dude, if I want to go out on tour and do nothing but sing Dennis' solo songs, he can't stop me.

The question is if he can stop Styx from RELEASING THE PERFORMANCE ON DVD....I don't think he can. It has nothing to do with a win/win situation...it has to do with him not being able to do anything about it if he wanted to.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Dude, if I want to go out on tour and do nothing but sing Dennis' solo songs, he can't stop me.

The question is if he can stop Styx from RELEASING THE PERFORMANCE ON DVD....I don't think he can. It has nothing to do with a win/win situation...it has to do with him not being able to do anything about it if he wanted to.

First of all Monkey, I am a female....and secondly certain songs accredited solely to him has to get permission for certain releases (like DVD recordings), the point in which you missed

[StyxCollector]

Why does he need to give his permission for Styx to release a video of Styx performing Styx songs? Why is this any different then whoever now owns the copyrights to the Beatles songs and Styx recording Walrus and releasing it on DVD? As long as they pay songwriter royalties, how can he stop them?

I'm sure he could stop the release of old concerts where he is filmed, but I have my doubts he can stop the release of a new recording - even he did write some of the songs. The only way I can see this being possible is if it was party of the lawsuit settlement...and Styx would have been foolish to agree to it if it was.

It's the way copyright law works and has been discussed here ad nauseum over the years. From Harry Fox, who does mechanical licenses (http://www.harryfox.com/songfile/faq.jsp#faq6):

A synchronization license is a written authorization to use recorded music in combination with visual images such as film, television, video, websites, and the like.

HFA discontinued synchronization licensing services in 2002. However, you may secure synchronization rights by contacting the publisher directly. You can use the following databases to locate publisher information:

http://www.ascap.com
http://www.bmi.com
http://www.sesac.com
http://www.copyright.gov/

From ASCAP, bold mine:

ASCAP does not license the right to record music on a CD or tape or as part of a multi-media or an audio-visual work such as a motion picture, video or television program. Those rights, known in the music industry as mechanical and synchronization(or "synch") rights, are licensed by writers or publishers.

There is NO debate on this. The law is black and white.

So for a CD - you're correct. They can file for a plain mechanical license. But doing things like synchronizing audio to video (i.e. a DVD) is a whole different ballgame. So for example, they could release a 2 CD set of this tour with pretty much no problem. The issue would come in if they wanted to release a DVD/Blu-Ray. Dennis would need to give them permission to do so for all of his songs.

Things like samples in rap songs are covered by the master use part of copyright law. It's not a simple mechanical license, either. A commercial using the original version of "Come Sail Away" would need a synch and a master use license.

[yogi]

As was stated earlier It's All just a write off!!!

[bugsymalone]

Why does he need to give his permission for Styx to release a video of Styx performing Styx songs? Why is this any different then whoever now owns the copyrights to the Beatles songs and Styx recording Walrus and releasing it on DVD? As long as they pay songwriter royalties, how can he stop them?

I'm sure he could stop the release of old concerts where he is filmed, but I have my doubts he can stop the release of a new recording - even he did write some of the songs. The only way I can see this being possible is if it was party of the lawsuit settlement...and Styx would have been foolish to agree to it if it was.

It's the way copyright law works and has been discussed here ad nauseum over the years. From Harry Fox, who does mechanical licenses (http://www.harryfox.com/songfile/faq.jsp#faq6):

A synchronization license is a written authorization to use recorded music in combination with visual images such as film, television, video, websites, and the like.

HFA discontinued synchronization licensing services in 2002. However, you may secure synchronization rights by contacting the publisher directly. You can use the following databases to locate publisher information:

http://www.ascap.com
http://www.bmi.com
http://www.sesac.com
http://www.copyright.gov/

From ASCAP, bold mine:

ASCAP does not license the right to record music on a CD or tape or as part of a multi-media or an audio-visual work such as a motion picture, video or television program. Those rights, known in the music industry as mechanical and synchronization(or "synch") rights, are licensed by writers or publishers.

There is NO debate on this. The law is black and white.

So for a CD - you're correct. They can file for a plain mechanical license. But doing things like synchronizing audio to video (i.e. a DVD) is a whole different ballgame. So for example, they could release a 2 CD set of this tour with pretty much no problem. The issue would come in if they wanted to release a DVD/Blu-Ray. Dennis would need to give them permission to do so for all of his songs.

Things like samples in rap songs are covered by the master use part of copyright law. It's not a simple mechanical license, either. A commercial using the original version of "Come Sail Away" would need a synch and a master use license.

Thus, the same arguments/questions, and same answers provided, about the song inclusions/exclusions for that copycat orchestra DVD Touring Styx did awhile back.


Bugsy

[StyxCollector]

[quote="bugsymalone"]Thus, the same arguments/questions, and same answers provided, about the song inclusions/exclusions for that copycat orchestra DVD Touring Styx did awhile back.[quote]

Yup, same issues as the CYO disc.

[yogi]

The Grand Illusion, Come Sail Away, Lady have all been rerecorded by Gowan live on the Arch Allies & Styxworld albums.

Why couldnt they just do the same on all of DDY songs from The Grand Illusion & Pieces Of Eight. Record the concert and put it out there. They did it before.


It's a write off correct???

[StyxCollector]

The Grand Illusion, Come Sail Away, Lady have all been rerecorded by Gowan live on the Arch Allies & Styxworld albums.

Why couldnt they just do the same on all of DDY songs from The Grand Illusion & Pieces Of Eight. Record the concert and put it out there. They did it before.


It's a write off correct???

What part of this are you not understanding? This has nothing to do with writeoffs.

Again, they can release a CD by getting a mechanical license. That would involve nothing on the part of Dennis and he gets paid no matter what for the use of those songs via that mechanical license.

Releasing a DVD/Blu-Ray is a whole different enterprise which has been explained thoroughly here.

CD is not the same as DVD here.

So you have a chance of a CD set. Your chances of a DVD are less likely unless Dennis agrees.

[bugsymalone]

The Grand Illusion, Come Sail Away, Lady have all been rerecorded by Gowan live on the Arch Allies & Styxworld albums.

Why couldnt they just do the same on all of DDY songs from The Grand Illusion & Pieces Of Eight. Record the concert and put it out there. They did it before.


It's a write off correct???

What part of this are you not understanding? This has nothing to do with writeoffs.

Again, they can release a CD by getting a mechanical license. That would involve nothing on the part of Dennis and he gets paid no matter what for the use of those songs via that mechanical license.

Releasing a DVD/Blu-Ray is a whole different enterprise which has been explained thoroughly here.

CD is not the same as DVD here.

So you have a chance of a CD set. Your chances of a DVD are less likely unless Dennis agrees.

I think they want a DVD no matter what, to sell the same way they are doing those re-recorded CD's. If they cannot get Dennis' permission on his solo-penned songs, they may just do a "best of" from the tour on DVD. It might be a problem presenting The Grand Illusion without the title track and Come Sail Away, and ditto Pieces of Eight title track, but there are ways of packaging this that might work for them.


Bugsy

[yogi]

So how much does DDY get paid? How much did he get off of StyxWorld & Arch Allies??

Does he get paid after each show when they sing his inked songs?? If so how much??

Is Tommy getting $$ when DDY's now band plays Renegade?? If so how much??

Do they even know if they are getting the correct amount of $$$.

What about the law offices of Kenn Nunn how much does he receive???


What part of my questions dont you get???

As I stated at the beginning It's all a writeoff!!!!

[Don]

I think there is confusion in regard to Dennis being paid when ever Styx performs. There's a fee paid by the venues to cover licensing, so it doesn't matter if it's Styx, Carrie Underwood or a cover band singing, ASCAP/BMI/SECAM will get a quarterly or annual fee from the venue operators and that amount also calculated with average number of plays on the radio, muzak, Jukebox operators and everyone else that pays a general usage license. There is a lot of auditing going on, really a murky formula used by ASCAP/BMI/ SECAM that figures all of this into an average and that money will eventually go the artist. This is what protects cover bands and others when they go out and do complete shows based on other people's songs.

Steve Perry had an agreement with his exbandmates which allowed him to be paid for tours he didn't participate in despite all of this. Why Journey agreed to this can be debated in a different thread. That period is over now though, according to all accounts.

Notice Styx and Journey don't do USB flashdrive sales of their live shows. It's the issues with royalties again. A flashdrive would be like selling a CD and every sale would have royaties netted from it. Seeing as Styx and Journey have a setlist littered with songs that have co-writer credits from others beside the current lineup, imagine the accounting expense needed to do that after every concert.

Royalty rates are set by the copyright board, a government agency. Arbitrary fees can be negotiated when you license your music out to a movie or commercial or for some kind of promotional use, that's when the writers can name a price for usage. Royaltiy rights will still come into play for syndication, DVD sales and what not of those shows which are separate from that one time paymnet for the license.

Those type of licences require consent from all writers and publishers who have copyright, not just one individual. If one of the parties doesn't want to do it, you are screwed.

[Archetype]

Why did Dennis let them release footage of Lawrence doing Lady on the Arch Allies DVD?

[Don]

Why did Dennis let them release footage of Lawrence doing Lady on the Arch Allies DVD?

I think most songwriters aren't really concerned about live Concert DVDs. It's a product that is being sold to an audience that usually knows that there is a different singer anyway. It is using the songs for movies/TV and commercials that sometimes causes issues.
A lot of money to made there though.
Who's Crying Now was on the DVD Monsters vs Aliens and that went on to sell over 8 million copies. If Cain or Perry had turned down Disney on that one, it would have looked foolish now.
I understand not just giving blanket approval but really, as long as no one is asking for re-records to be used in a big time movie with different singers where the writer thinks he might have a little of the original's thunder stolen, I don't see why a guy who is also going to be the performer on the licensed version would block access.

[Toph]

Why did Dennis let them release footage of Lawrence doing Lady on the Arch Allies DVD?

It is very confusing.

How was Dennis able to use Lorelei and Rockin The Paradise on his DVD when JY is a co-writer?

[yogi]

Why did'nt all of you listen to me from the start?? It is all a write off!!

StyxCollector aka Perry Mason may be able to explain this all since he is such a legal expert.

All I know is that Denny got his checks the third Tuesday of every month back in 2000 -2003. For Tommy & JY it was 'just a write off'.


Tommy now gets his checks for Dennis & The Boyz every 9TH Thursday and twice in July if Denny keeps the tour going. Dennis doesnt care 'its just a write off'

So what part of this dont you get StyxCollector??????????????????????????????

[StyxCollector]

Why did Dennis let them release footage of Lawrence doing Lady on the Arch Allies DVD?

Dennis may not be the copyright holder for Lady - they got much smarter about how the band did business after they joined A&M. So Dennis may not have any kind of control over how Lady is used. Remember A&M couldn't use the WN version for the 1st hits CD in 1995? Bill Traut controlled the WN stuff lock, stock, and barrel.

[StyxCollector]

I think there is confusion in regard to Dennis being paid when ever Styx performs. There's a fee paid by the venues to cover licensing, so it doesn't matter if it's Styx, Carrie Underwood or a cover band singing, ASCAP/BMI/SECAM will get a quarterly or annual fee from the venue operators and that amount also calculated with average number of plays on the radio, muzak, Jukebox operators and everyone else that pays a general usage license. There is a lot of auditing going on, really a murky formula used by ASCAP/BMI/ SECAM that figures all of this into an average and that money will eventually go the artist. This is what protects cover bands and others when they go out and do complete shows based on other people's songs.

Steve Perry had an agreement with his exbandmates which allowed him to be paid for tours he didn't participate in despite all of this. Why Journey agreed to this can be debated in a different thread. That period is over now though, according to all accounts.

Notice Styx and Journey don't do USB flashdrive sales of their live shows. It's the issues with royalties again. A flashdrive would be like selling a CD and every sale would have royaties netted from it. Seeing as Styx and Journey have a setlist littered with songs that have co-writer credits from others beside the current lineup, imagine the accounting expense needed to do that after every concert.

Royalty rates are set by the copyright board, a government agency. Arbitrary fees can be negotiated when you license your music out to a movie or commercial or for some kind of promotional use, that's when the writers can name a price for usage. Royaltiy rights will still come into play for syndication, DVD sales and what not of those shows which are separate from that one time paymnet for the license.

Those type of licences require consent from all writers and publishers who have copyright, not just one individual. If one of the parties doesn't want to do it, you are screwed.

Absolutely correct. There are standard fees that are paid by venues to artists that have nothing to do with intra-band agreements. The Perry/Journey one where he got paid for tours was done outside of the normal copyright stuff. The reality is that at the end of day, all of this is about money and who gets paid.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Why don't some of you ask DDY, Larry, JY, Tommy, etc. these questions in person? Especially those that are going to the upcoming Styx concerts.

[Everett]

Why don't some of you ask DDY, Larry, JY, Tommy, etc. these questions in person? Especially those that are going to the upcoming Styx concerts.

Ask dennis when your in chicago

[yogi]

At the end of EVERY televised or broadcasted(radio) sporting event it is stated no broadcast, rebroadcast or OTHER....... is permitted without the express authority........................................ then the VCR came along and ......EVERYTHING changed......... kindof


For ANY of you to sit here and think that you factually know what they can and cant record is INSANE!! The law is black and white, but the law changes based on agreements that the parties have made, the different lables they have been under, the invention of the tape recorder, VCR, TIVO, Napster,911, state law VS federal law, who the president is, whose wife has bigger breasts or a nicer ass, district judge, county judge, is the judge a homo, real hair VS toupee, Ginger or Mary Ann, white sox VS cub fan, who has more balls trying to interpret the law, JY, Tommy or Dennis, projected units to sell. lawyer fees, is this worth it??.... etc................. etc......................................................................


It's DAMN funny listening to you 'experts'!!!


Like I said its 'all a writeoff'

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Why don't some of you ask DDY, Larry, JY, Tommy, etc. these questions in person? Especially those that are going to the upcoming Styx concerts.

Ask dennis when your in chicago

I would like to know from "both" sides and also from other musicians.

When I start interviewing bands/musicians again, I'll be asking at each interview.

[yogi]

4 Words - Gag order Judge Whopner

[gr8dane]

Barely slept last night.The suspense surrounding this DVD is just too much for
my well being.Hope it comes out sooner than later,so I can settle down.

[kansas666]

Regardless of who gets paid, who has rights blah blah blah, it seems pretty obvious to me that STYX will be releasing a DVD of the entire GI/Po8 show.

Why else would they be shooting it?

This is an historical event and needs to be released.

There is no point in putting out a DVD of these 2 albums sans Denny's material.

[Archetype]

Styx confirmed that a DVD is coming. Maybe they just got Dennis's permission?

Now, does Journey and REO Speedwagon have to go to Steve Perry and Gary Richrath everytime they release a DVD?

[Everett]

Regardless of who gets paid, who has rights blah blah blah, it seems pretty obvious to me that STYX will be releasing a DVD of the entire GI/Po8 show.

Why else would they be shooting it?

This is an historical event and needs to be released.

There is no point in putting out a DVD of these 2 albums sans Denny's material.

Exactly

[bugsymalone]

Barely slept last night.The suspense surrounding this DVD is just too much for
my well being.Hope it comes out sooner than later,so I can settle down.

I know, Gr8. I am so wrapped up in this will-they/won't-they I can hardly get anything else accompl.........


Bugsy

[Boomchild]

Barely slept last night.The suspense surrounding this DVD is just too much for
my well being.Hope it comes out sooner than later,so I can settle down.

I hope your kidding. Losing sleep over a freakin' Styx DVD is nuts. I'd hate to know what would happen if something life changing would happen.

[Boomchild]

Regardless of who gets paid, who has rights blah blah blah, it seems pretty obvious to me that STYX will be releasing a DVD of the entire GI/Po8 show.

Why else would they be shooting it?

This is an historical event and needs to be released.

There is no point in putting out a DVD of these 2 albums sans Denny's material.

Exactly

"Historical Event" that's the funniest statement in this thread. I'm sure they are updating the music history books as we speak.