What If scenario...it's Fall 1984 and..

[Toph]

Styx - Don't Wait For Heroes is released. An album of songs - no concept.

Side 1
Don't Wait For Heroes
Lonely School
Girls with Guns
Desert Moon

Side 2
Wild Dogs in the Night
Little Girl World
Gravity
Dear Darlin'
Kiss Me Hello

How does this album do? His successful is it? What happens next?

[FormerDJMike]

Interesting topic. I think it would be a moderate success at first, 2-3 hit singles then fall off the charts. The songs would then be forgotten singles much like "Wheels Are Turnin'" by REO. Lots of great songs on that album with only one the masses remember - "Can't Fight This Feeling". "One Lonely Night" and "I Do' Wanna Know" are better songs but long forgotten. I think this would be memorable for "Desert Moon" only, but memorable to the diehards for GWG, DWFH and Lonely School.

Then, like REO, the wheels would fall off after this tour and Styx would disappear as they did until Edge. (and honestly, I don't remember what happened to REO after this album I think they released a GH then disappeared until a revamped line up released "Chicken").

[FormerDJMike]

You also have to remember another type of music is starting to take off and become very popular - Heavier rock is becoming more mainstream around this time with the release of The Scorpions "Love At First Sting", Motley's "Theater Of Pain" and the invasion of countless hair metal bands. I just don't think Styx could have survived during that era. Probably good that they didn't resurface until late 1990 early 91. Damn Yankees also somewhat fell in that hair metal genre. Grunge killed their 3rd album just like hair metal would have clobbered the "Don't Wait For Heroes" album above.

[Boomchild]

My question is, if Styx had stayed together post KWH would the songs you list even exist? I tend to think not. I think they came to be because DDY was thrown into a solo career and wanted to come up with something that was different from what he was writing as a member of Styx. I think Tommy was trying to do the same.

[FormerDJMike]

Dennis has said Don't Wait For Heroes was written for Styx. Don't remember where I heard that but I swear I did. GWG was also written for Styx as was Chain Me Down (which isn't listed on the hypothetical album). I also seem to remember Runaway by Damn Yankees (in its earliest form) was written by Tommy for Styx. Come Again is also very Styx-ish.

[Toph]

Yes, my hypothetical album was just that - hypothetical. I tried to pick the songs that got the most attention either by what the individual chose to release as videos/were singles/hits (GWG, DM, DWFH, LS, Dear Darlin', Wild Dogs) and then intermingle that with songs that were played in concert (Kiss Me, Little Girl World) or ones that made compilations that were Styx sounding (Gravity). Also tried to balance ballads and rockers and do the usual DDY/TS/JY split - (4,4,1 - I guess you could add Chain Me or City Slicker as a second song, but neither one feel like Styx to me - maybe that is why Chain Me Down got rejected to begin with). I'm sure you could exchange a number of these with others. I seriously considered Come In And Explain instead of Kiss Me Hello, but I don't think Shaw ever played that in concert and it doesn't sound all that Styx like. I do know Kiss Me was about his frustrations with Styx and I think it would have been cool to end an album with that - airing out your dirty laundry like Fleetwood Mac did with Rumours or Simon and Garfunkle did on a number of Bridge Over Troubled Water songs.

I tend to think like DJ MIke - Would have gotten good initial reception due to brand name. Desert Moon would be top 5, Girls would have been top 20, and then you would have had the proverbial what to release as the third single fight - Lonely School, Dear Darlin', LGW (ballads) vs. a Don't Wait For Heroes or Kiss Me Hello which were either uptempo rockers or moody rockers...Maybe some airplay on rock stations with DWFH or KMH or Wild Dogs.

Probably sales similar to Kilroy - 1x platinum bordering on 2x. But probably no tour and album sales wouldn't be so successful that they would want to come back for more...Band ends in 1985-86 instead of 1984.

[Everett]

Interesting topic. I think it would be a moderate success at first, 2-3 hit singles then fall off the charts. The songs would then be forgotten singles much like "Wheels Are Turnin'" by REO. Lots of great songs on that album with only one the masses remember - "Can't Fight This Feeling". "One Lonely Night" and "I Do' Wanna Know" are better songs but long forgotten. I think this would be memorable for "Desert Moon" only, but memorable to the diehards for GWG, DWFH and Lonely School.

Then, like REO, the wheels would fall off after this tour and Styx would disappear as they did until Edge. (and honestly, I don't remember what happened to REO after this album I think they released a GH then disappeared until a revamped line up released "Chicken").

After the wheel's album they recorded the life as we know it album in '87 (year i was born ) That ain't love/ in my dreams are
on that album. They toured behind that then they came out with the greatest hit's album in '88 which included here with me.
Alan gratzer (drummer) retired before the gh tour but recored the two new songs on the album before he left. Richrath was
fired in '89 and then they came out with the earth album in late '90. Love is a rock was a mild hit.

[yogi]

Tommy 'wanted to rock' back then, so I would think that 'Come In and Explain' should replace Little Girl World, he's got his 'hit radio friendly' ballad with Lonely School. Styxified Lonely School would have hit BIG.

If this album would have followed Paradise Theatre and you also added Dont Let It End because that song had NOTHING to do with the Kilroy concept( Denny just need a ballad) this album would have been HUGE!!!!

Side 1
Girls With Guns
Dont Wait For Heros
Lonely School
Dont Let It End
Kiss Me Hello

Side 2
Desert Moon
Come In and Explain
Gravity
Wild Dogs In The Night
Dear Darling

** Free To Love You was also and AWESOME song to bad albums only had so much space. It too would have been a GREAT fit for a Styx album.

[Toph]

OK, if you are going to assume that KWH doesn't exist and this comes out in 1983, you have to take more than DLIE. In fact, HWBHB, JGTTN, and Double Life must be on that album. Now you have an album that has the potential to be huge like on the scale of having 5-6 top 10 big hit singles like Springsteen's Born In the USA, Billy Joel's Innocent Man, or Genesis Invisible Touch.

Side One
Don't Wait For Heroes
Lonely School
Girls With Guns
Don't Let It End
Kiss Me Hello

Side Two
Desert Moon
Just Get Through This Night
Double Life
Haven't We Been Here Before
Gravity

Possible Hit singles -
Top 40 - DLIE, DM, HWBHB, GWG, LS
Rock - DWFH, GWG, DL, KMH
AC - DLIE, DM, HWBHB, LS

HUGE!!!

[masque]

toph i like your album pretty well......i actually posted about this myself back in april......this is what i thought then;

Ok here it is………I imagined what could have been if the boys had not gone their separate ways in the 80’s.

I reviewed the post styx solo stuff up thru the rest of the 80’s.

I did not take into consideration tommy’s 7 deadly zens album or dennis’s 100 years from now because these albums were post 80’s.

I also did not take into consideration the james young group’s raised by wolves album (which is fantastic) but benefited from the other guys in that band doing the bulk of the writing not JY.

Lastly, I did not include “ever since the world began”….because tommy did not write that song.......even though it's a killer tune.


FIRST POST KILROY ALBUM AROUND 1985

SIDE 1
1) GIRLS WITH GUNS
2) DONT WAIT FOR HEROS
3) DESERT MOON
4) NATURE OF THE BEAST
5) HARRYS HANDS

SIDE 2
1) BLACK WALL
2) WHAT IF
3) LONELY SCHOOL
4) CHAIN ME DOWN
5) KISS ME HELLO

SECOND POST KILROY ALBUM AROUND 1987

SIDE 1
1) NO SUCH THING
2) SEE ME NOW
3) THIS IS THE TIME
4) CALL ME
5) GRAVITY

SIDE 2
1) SOUTHBOUND RYAN
2) THE OUTSIDER
3) WARNING SHOT
4) AMBITION
5) LITTLE GIRL WORLD



I figure these two albums could have sold a minimum 2-3 million each and produced at least 2-3 top 20 hits each with at least one song making it into the top 10 from each album…….especially if these albums had been released as styx albums……PLUS all of these songs (as good as they are) would have benefited greatly from the other styx members putting their sound and stamp on them……and if I had been producing them I would upped the edge and aggressiveness of the sound of most of these songs just a bit….not over the top but just a bit.

What do you think about my lists?

[Toph]

toph i like your album pretty well......i actually posted about this myself back in april......this is what i thought then;

Ok here it is………I imagined what could have been if the boys had not gone their separate ways in the 80’s.

I reviewed the post styx solo stuff up thru the rest of the 80’s.

I did not take into consideration tommy’s 7 deadly zens album or dennis’s 100 years from now because these albums were post 80’s.

I also did not take into consideration the james young group’s raised by wolves album (which is fantastic) but benefited from the other guys in that band doing the bulk of the writing not JY.

Lastly, I did not include “ever since the world began”….because tommy did not write that song.......even though it's a killer tune.


FIRST POST KILROY ALBUM AROUND 1985

SIDE 1
1) GIRLS WITH GUNS
2) DONT WAIT FOR HEROS
3) DESERT MOON
4) NATURE OF THE BEAST
5) HARRYS HANDS

SIDE 2
1) BLACK WALL
2) WHAT IF
3) LONELY SCHOOL
4) CHAIN ME DOWN
5) KISS ME HELLO

SECOND POST KILROY ALBUM AROUND 1987

SIDE 1
1) NO SUCH THING
2) SEE ME NOW
3) THIS IS THE TIME
4) CALL ME
5) GRAVITY

SIDE 2
1) SOUTHBOUND RYAN
2) THE OUTSIDER
3) WARNING SHOT
4) AMBITION
5) LITTLE GIRL WORLD



I figure these two albums could have sold a minimum 2-3 million each and produced at least 2-3 top 20 hits each with at least one song making it into the top 10 from each album…….especially if these albums had been released as styx albums……PLUS all of these songs (as good as they are) would have benefited greatly from the other styx members putting their sound and stamp on them……and if I had been producing them I would upped the edge and aggressiveness of the sound of most of these songs just a bit….not over the top but just a bit.

What do you think about my lists?

Like your albums Masque. Of course you are making some assumptions about when these songs were written and their order (i.e. some Boomchild stuff on album one), but heck as long as we're making assumptions, why not?

What I really agree with is your post about Styx-afying these songs. Most, if not all of them, could benefit from that big, bold Stygian chorus. That wall of sound that is so evident in many Styx songs. Imagine if you apply that "Show Me The Way" type chorus to Desert Moon. How big can that sound? Sterling even talked about the bigness of Show Me The Way in his book and I would love to apply that production to song like Desert Moon, DWFH, Girls with Guns, etc. I never liked the choruses on the whole Girls With Guns - not enough high harmonies. Not sure if it was the mixing or what. Seem to think I heard somewhere that Tommy's producer decided to make it all Tommy's voice in choruses and brought down the other harmonies, which I think was a mistake. Apply Styx harmonies to DDY's and Tommy's solo songs. Ratchet up some electric guitar or Oberheim keyboard and you have some solid material.

[Toph]

OK, if we are going to make the ultimate album from all the solo work of the 80s, this is my best stab. I'm going with 11 songs because there were plenty of albums with 11 songs then (see Journey ROR). How good would this be? I might burn a CD with these songs!

Side One
Don't Wait For Heroes
The Outsider
Desert Moon
Girls With Guns
Harry's Hands

Side Two
This Is The Time
No Such Thing
Black Wall
Lonely School
Dangerous Game
Outside Looking In Again

[Boomchild]

OK, if we are going to make the ultimate album from all the solo work of the 80s, this is my best stab. I'm going with 11 songs because there were plenty of albums with 11 songs then (see Journey ROR). How good would this be? I might burn a CD with these songs!

Side One
Don't Wait For Heroes
The Outsider
Desert Moon
Girls With Guns
Harry's Hands

Side Two
This Is The Time
No Such Thing
Black Wall
Lonely School
Dangerous Game
Outside Looking In Again

Where's JY's tunes????

[Toph]

JY's solo songs don't come close to an ultimate Styx solo album. What am I going to put on there? City Slicker? Top of the World? Dark Side (the contrary nature of man)? Don't think any of those make the cut!

[yogi]

JY redid 'Young Man' on his Out On A Day Pass album. Horrible album but a GREAT GREAT song. Best song he ever sang lead on.

[Toph]

Maybe, but it still doesn't make my ultimate Styx-ified solo album compiliation.

[yogi]

By Styx law JY is promised at least 1 JY led tune per album. That was the only part of the lawsuit Dennis filed that was released to the general public. Tommy and the rest still have to abide by it. So do you!!!

[Boomchild]

By Styx law JY is promised at least 1 JY led tune per album. That was the only part of the lawsuit Dennis filed that was released to the general public. Tommy and the rest still have to abide by it. So do you!!!

I smell some legal papers from JY's army of attorneys being served on Toph!

[Boomchild]

So we have been doing these "What If" scenarios about Styx continuing on right after KWH instead of the break up. My question is, even if this did occur and they released another studio album or two following KWH, would they really have seen more success that would have propelled their status further? As a diehard fan one would want to believe that is true. But, if you step out of the diehard fan viewpoint, would you really come to the same conclusion? Personally, I am not so sure. Maybe they would have been able to stay afloat, garner a somewhat respectable position. However, I think that it would have only lasted a few more years. Maybe close to the end of the 80's but not past it. What do you think?

[Cassie May]

So we have been doing these "What If" scenarios about Styx continuing on right after KWH instead of the break up. My question is, even if this did occur and they released another studio album or two following KWH, would they really have seen more success that would have propelled their status further? As a diehard fan one would want to believe that is true. But, if you step out of the diehard fan viewpoint, would you really come to the same conclusion? Personally, I am not so sure. Maybe they would have been able to stay afloat, garner a somewhat respectable position. However, I think that it would have only lasted a few more years. Maybe close to the end of the 80's but not past it. What do you think?

I don't think they would have lasted too much longer. Music changed so much, and was so influenced by MTV and all the British acts that were making it big. Then, you had the rise of the hair bands, followed by grunge; so many acts from the 70s died off in the 80s that I believe Styx would have also. No one wants to think of things that way, but actually, it is simply the general order and natural progression of things. Very few acts (outside of, say, the Beatles, Elvis, and the like) reach that ultimate pinnacle and remain vital and relevant for decades. It's like catching lightening in a bottle.

[Boomchild]

I don't think they would have lasted too much longer. Music changed so much, and was so influenced by MTV and all the British acts that were making it big. Then, you had the rise of the hair bands, followed by grunge; so many acts from the 70s died off in the 80s that I believe Styx would have also. No one wants to think of things that way, but actually, it is simply the general order and natural progression of things. Very few acts (outside of, say, the Beatles, Elvis, and the like) reach that ultimate pinnacle and remain vital and relevant for decades. It's like catching lightening in a bottle.

Sometimes it's better to go out when you are riding high then to push on and fade away.

[Toph]

I think you can look at 3 contemporaries to see how they would have fared

Foreigner - Agent P. - huge album based upon one huge song; other hit song "That Was Yesterday" hasn't really stood the test of time. Then Inside Information came out about 87 and sold substantially less, despite two top 10s (neither of which has stood the test of time). Music was very similar to heyday, but sales went down.

REO Speedwagon - Wheels - Huge album again based upon one huge song; other singles were pretty much forgettable. When was the last time you heard I Do Wanna Know or One Lonely Night or Live Every Moment? Follow up album sales were much less and none of those songs In My Dreams/That Ain't Love are really mainstays of 80s music. The last album of the 80s was a huge flop. Again, music not much different from peak, but sales just went down.

Journey - Raised On Radio. Despite 4 forgettable singles that all his top 20, the only song that really gets any airplay now is Be Good To Yourself and that is solely on 80s nostalgia channels. Music on this album was different, so not sure if sales were lower (did it even get to be 2x platinum?) based on music or changing times.

My guess - a 1984-5 album with these songs would have put Styx back into 3x platinum territory, but if they went out with something in 86/87, it would have struggled.

[Toph]

And since Runaway was written for Styx in the early 80s, it is now considered fair game to put on this 84-85 ultimate album of songs. It makes my list.

[Everett]

So topher how many songs do you think they would've played at live aid?????
Assuming they would have been asked/accepted the offer.

[Toph]

So topher how many songs do you think they would've played at live aid?????
Assuming they would have been asked/accepted the offer.

I always thought that Live Aid was a huge missed opportunity for Styx. Can you imagine that in 1985 if they had even reunited for that event. Or if they had played on We Are The World? I mean REO Speedwagon played on Live Aid, I would think a reformed Styx would have been able to. Yet another huge missed opportunity (Do we realize how often we say missed opportunity as it relates to these guys?!?)

[Toph]

So topher how many songs do you think they would've played at live aid?????
Assuming they would have been asked/accepted the offer.

I always thought that Live Aid was a huge missed opportunity for Styx. Can you imagine that in 1985 if they had even reunited for that event. Or if they had played on We Are The World? I mean REO Speedwagon played on Live Aid, I would think a reformed Styx would have been able to. Yet another huge missed opportunity (Do we realize how often we say missed opportunity as it relates to these guys?!?)

Does anyone know if Styx was offered a Live Aid spot or could have played if they had reunited?

[masque]

[/quote]

I always thought that Live Aid was a huge missed opportunity for Styx. Can you imagine that in 1985 if they had even reunited for that event. Or if they had played on We Are The World? I mean REO Speedwagon played on Live Aid, I would think a reformed Styx would have been able to. Yet another huge missed opportunity (Do we realize how often we say missed opportunity as it relates to these guys?!?)[/quote]

Does anyone know if Styx was offered a Live Aid spot or could have played if they had reunited?[/quote]


i think i read somewhere that they were contacted about their interest but at that time there was not talk of reuniting.

[styxfanNH]

Styx - Don't Wait For Heroes is released. An album of songs - no concept.

Side 1
Don't Wait For Heroes
Lonely School
Girls with Guns
Desert Moon

Side 2
Wild Dogs in the Night
Little Girl World
Gravity
Dear Darlin'
Kiss Me Hello

How does this album do? His successful is it? What happens next?

I've given this some thought every time this comes up. And if you follow the members rhetoric, many of these don't make it into the Styx camp. Dennis purposefully wrote his songs in a way that was not to sound like Styx, Tommy was all full of rock songs, and JY pretty much put together everything he had ever written but wasn't fully recorded. The DDY songs listed here could have been styxified (Gravity wouldn't have made it), Girls With Guns would never have made it - too synth laden for a Tommy song, Kiss me hello and Lonely School probably would have made it, and JY would have had Chain Me Down. Something else would have bubbled up to make am 8 song album.

But Tommy says he was full of rock songs, and we had to wait until he got to Damn Yankees to hear any of that. Which is the conundrum of the Girls with Guns Album.

[Boomchild]

But Tommy says he was full of rock songs, and we had to wait until he got to Damn Yankees to hear any of that. Which is the conundrum of the Girls with Guns Album.

For some this maybe a "conundrum" but not for me. To me this was a smoke screen for other reasons TS wasn't happy and left the band.

[styxfanNH]

But Tommy says he was full of rock songs, and we had to wait until he got to Damn Yankees to hear any of that. Which is the conundrum of the Girls with Guns Album.

For some this maybe a "conundrum" but not for me. To me this was a smoke screen for other reasons TS wasn't happy and left the band.

Totally agree, but he refers to it on a semi-regular basis.

Couldn't think about songs about robots. I was all full of rock songs.....led to a synth based single that his first album was named after.