Why continue to bury the past?

[Toph]

Tommy Shaw personally cost them three arguably top 10 hits with his silly "I quit shenanigans" - Specifically, he caused them to lose releasing the singles First Time, HWBHB (to his own detriment I may add), and probably Boat on The River (remember, DDY said that had they released First Time and it had run its top 5 course, they would have known about BoTR success in Europe and released that in the States. As it was, by the time BoTR had success in Europe, Cornerstone was over in the US because of two poorly executed singles in Why Me and BT.)

Both "First Time" and "Haven't We been Here Before" are way over-rated....especially First Time. Just because Dennis says it could have been a hit doesn't mean it would have. First Time sounds like an Air Supply song, not a Styx song. It is way over the top - to it's detriment. The falsetto sounds gay, as does the "Don't be afraid of love" segue into the first chorus. It is also far too long...or it seems to be.

I like "Haven't We Been Here Before". I like it a lot, actually....but as an album cut - not as a single. I can't imagine hearing it regularly on the radio in the mid-80's. I'll compare it to The Firm's, "Midnight Moonlight". It's one of my all time favorite songs, but, again, as an album cut - I can't imagine hearing it on the radio in the late 80's. Maybe in the mid-70's, though.

Really? Mr. Know It All Monkey Boy showing his ignorance again. First Time was getting Top 5 airplay in numerous markets without a single. I don't think it should have been the follow up to Babe, but it would have been an excellent 3rd single choice. And maybe you can refrain from using offensive terms like "gay" to describe songs.

Haven't We Been Here Before would have been a fantastic single. Someone at A&M thought so because they invested a lot of money on making that video. So, I guess the A&R department at A&M just decided to spend that money on the video because they wanted to? That would be a fireable offense. No, they were expecting big things out of HWBHB. It would have landed in the Top 20, no doubt and would have had a shot at the top 10. A second top 10 hit for Tommy Shaw. But good old Coke-head decided to self-sabotage that as well.

[masque]

[/quote]

I get tried of TS and JY painted as total victims. They contributed to the problems as well. Especially TS with his drug and alcohol abuse that started prior to the rift in the band. Then you have his consistent "threat" to quit the band when things were not going they way he thought they should. Your dealing with three individuals that have large egos. When that is the case, there is bound to be trouble. I remember DDY once sating that when a band garners great success, all the members tend to believe it was their contributions that are mainly responsible for that success. No matter whether it is true or not.[/quote]

I hear what you're saying and I actually agree.....I apologize if I made it sound like TS and JY are blameless......god knows they aren't. regardless of who's music I prefer, I realize they all played a part in their demise.

i guess what I am saying is that if you look at the fact that TS and JY have now played together for 3 times as long the second time around as they did the first time around then they have obviously found a way to coexist with each other's egos. Chuck still participates with the band as much as he has time for or his health will allow. Glenn has made comments that DDY was difficult to work with at times......so, even though they may all be dicks and their egos are enormous, the overall point is that apparently, as evidenced by their actions, not my opinions, they would rather damn well do anything but work with DDY again.

that's not intended as a referendum on DDY, I dont know the man, he seems nice to me.....but rather serves as an observation of what I have seen that they have shown through their actions. that's all.

more than 1 thing can be true......TS was on drugs and had problems and acted like a baby during end of their first run, but DDY also apparently is a huge pain in the ass to work with to the point that the others would rather carry on with less success instead of dealing with him.

[masque]

all I can say as a musician myself is that if I had been in a band that was steadily climbing the ladder of success and was already essentially one of the biggest bands in America on the heels of songs like lady, come sail away, fooling yourself, renegade, and blue collar man...............i would have been mortified to have released from my new album babe, first time, BOTR as singles back to back to back.

i think BOTR is one of their all time great songs, but at that point styx was known as a fairly rocking band coming on the heels of come sail away, renegade and blue collar man, which were either straight rockers or had big rocking moments.

you're selling out multiple nights in enormo domes all across america, why suddenly and dramatically shift into doing a type of music you dont particularly want to be known for?

the best songs on cornerstone were;

BOTR
lights
borrowed time
love in the midnight
why me

in that order. i think having two back to back massive ballads as top ten or top 5 hits would have actually hurt the band more than help it with their core audience.

it's like asking did "i was made for loving you" hurt or help KISS? sure it was a hit, and put money in their pocket but it massively alienated a great deal of their core audience. is that fair? nope. as artists, you want to be able to write whatever you feel, but in doing that you have to also realize who's buttering your bread so to speak.

if you look at styx's setlist's from the mid 70's through the POE tour, you can't classify them as anything but a rock band that occasionally "slowed things down".......if babe had been followed by first time they would have been know as a ballad band by most of the public which is something they already deal with now, because of the subsequent success of babe and some of the singles after babe.

and in reality, DDY sort of got his way, because by the end of their run they were mostly known for being a ballad band because their actual charting hits for the most part from 79' on were either ballads or a light rocker in the case of TMTOMH and of course the polarizing roboto.

so in the end it is what it is.

[Toph]

all I can say as a musician myself is that if I had been in a band that was steadily climbing the ladder of success and was already essentially one of the biggest bands in America on the heels of songs like lady, come sail away, fooling yourself, renegade, and blue collar man...............i would have been mortified to have released from my new album babe, first time, BOTR as singles back to back to back.

i think BOTR is one of their all time great songs, but at that point styx was known as a fairly rocking band coming on the heels of come sail away, renegade and blue collar man, which were either straight rockers or had big rocking moments.

you're selling out multiple nights in enormo domes all across america, why suddenly and dramatically shift into doing a type of music you dont particularly want to be known for?

the best songs on cornerstone were;

BOTR
lights
borrowed time
love in the midnight
why me

in that order. i think having two back to back massive ballads as top ten or top 5 hits would have actually hurt the band more than help it with their core audience.

it's like asking did "i was made for loving you" hurt or help KISS? sure it was a hit, and put money in their pocket but it massively alienated a great deal of their core audience. is that fair? nope. as artists, you want to be able to write whatever you feel, but in doing that you have to also realize who's buttering your bread so to speak.

if you look at styx's setlist's from the mid 70's through the POE tour, you can't classify them as anything but a rock band that occasionally "slowed things down".......if babe had been followed by first time they would have been know as a ballad band by most of the public which is something they already deal with now, because of the subsequent success of babe and some of the singles after babe.

and in reality, DDY sort of got his way, because by the end of their run they were mostly known for being a ballad band because their actual charting hits for the most part from 79' on were either ballads or a light rocker in the case of TMTOMH and of course the polarizing roboto.

so in the end it is what it is.

I hear you and don't necessarily disagree, but you also have to realize that there was a huge trend toward rock bands going towards ballads. Styx's contemporaries all went there - Journey, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon. If anything, Styx was on the forefront of this change. And I don't necessarily buy the notion that they were this head banging/hard rock only band. I think even in the mid-late 70s they were a mix. Lady was ostensibly a ballad with a harder crescendo, Come Sail Away, also a ballad for the first 50%, Mademoiselle - pure pop, Sing for the Day - pure pop, Crystal Ball - acoustic ballad that gets harder during last 1/3, Lorelei - pretty poppy. Light Up - outside of the lyrical content, almost bubble gum. Yes BCM and Renegade were hard rock, but I would not put Styx in the same category as Kiss at all.

I do agree with your assessment that FT should have been delayed. I would have gone with Lights 2nd, but then I would have released the hell out of First Time. Again, think about Journey Escape or Foreigner 4. Journey Escape singles - they went with a ballad in Whose Crying Now, a poppy upbeat song in DSB, a huge ballad in Open Arms, and then another ballad in Still They Ride. At the same time, they released Stone In Love to Rock Radio, but that was never a single. That album sold over 15 million copies and was one of the definitive albums of the 1980s. Not unlike a Babe, Lights, First Time, Boat on the River combo could have been for Styx (with Borrowed Time released to rock radio as a album track).

Just saying that the Styx narrative is always about how they went too soft when all their contemporaries seem to get a pass for doing the same thing.

[yogi]

IMO Styx was the band that started the rock ballad with Lady. I cant think of one before then. It was a edgier ballad and Styx was at the forefront.

If they had gone Babe to First Time to Boat on the River it would of completely alienated their fans. I was in Jr High when Cornerstone came out. At the time I thought Babe was ok, wasnt much of a fan of First Time, and thought WTF is this on Boat On The River.

I like em all now but back then I was missing Pieces Of Eight, Grand Illusion and Equinox

[Monker]

Really? Mr. Know It All Monkey Boy showing his ignorance again.

NO, it's a matter of pure opinion, not fact. The fact that you lower yourself to insults shows that you have little confidence in it.

First Time was getting Top 5 airplay in numerous markets without a single.

Prove it. Show an official chart. Show something besides DDY quotes or WIKIPEDIA. I have never seen any evidence that this is true so I would be very interested in it.

I don't think it should have been the follow up to Babe, but it would have been an excellent 3rd single choice.

Meh. Cornerstone was a mediocre album full of mediocre songs that fans enjoy more that the general public. What singles were chosen and in what order after "Babe" really didn't matter - at all.

It's like when Dennis told Andrew that BNW's "I Will Be Your Witness" could have been a big hit. Of course, he would have had to produce it and THAT is why it didn't go anywhere.

It's all just talk and made up timelines.

And maybe you can refrain from using offensive terms like "gay" to describe songs.

It's a gay sounding song at points. The intro bits to the chorus - gay. The bits where you can barely hear Tommy harmonizing - gay. The lyrics are so sugar coated that Richard Simmons would tell you to stop listening and dance with him before you got fat. It has some VERY gaY BITS.

Haven't We Been Here Before would have been a fantastic single. Someone at A&M thought so because they invested a lot of money on making that video. So, I guess the A&R department at A&M just decided to spend that money on the video because they wanted to? That would be a fireable offense. No, they were expecting big things out of HWBHB. It would have landed in the Top 20, no doubt and would have had a shot at the top 10. A second top 10 hit for Tommy Shaw. But good old Coke-head decided to self-sabotage that as well.

You go from "fantastic single", to top 20, to top 10. You are typing it and convincing yourself ofdthis bullshit. It is simply not the type of song that would have hit radio big in 1984. No way.

Kilroy did all it could do. By the time you dig down to "Cold War", "Haven't We Been Here Before" and "Heavy Metal Poisoning", you are hitting a bunch of mediocre songs that will all hit the charts in the same way.

Again, alternate timelines, and guessing games that you are presenting as factual or at least provable in some odd way. All you are doing is rejecting reality and substituting your own made up version.....and it obviously has all to do with Tommy being evil coke-head.

[Monker]

I do agree with your assessment that FT should have been delayed. I would have gone with Lights 2nd, but then I would have released the hell out of First Time. Again, think about Journey Escape or Foreigner 4. Journey Escape singles - they went with a ballad in Whose Crying Now, a poppy upbeat song in DSB, a huge ballad in Open Arms, and then another ballad in Still They Ride. At the same time, they released Stone In Love to Rock Radio, but that was never a single. That album sold over 15 million copies and was one of the definitive albums of the 1980s. Not unlike a Babe, Lights, First Time, Boat on the River combo could have been for Styx (with Borrowed Time released to rock radio as a album track).

Wow. You are just so far off on this I'm not sure where to begin.

I guess I'll start with that none of these bands were singles bands. They were album bands. They had albums that sold double or triple platinum, with a few top 40 singles each.

Now, you mention Journey...I'll tell you that if you read Herbie Herbert's comments on success he'll say that back then it was desireable to NOT have a bunch of top 10 singles...because the label and fans would DEMAND a repeat of that single success. You actually have more control and longevity when you can consistently knock out a few top 20 singles and not worry about huge hits.

So, I absolutely do not believe, and I have NEVER believed, that Journey sat down in 1980 and tried to write what they felt would be charting singles. I have always believed that they wrote and recorded the best songs that they could and then let the label and management take it from there as far charts were concerned.

Now, you are comparing Journey, REO, and Foreigner to Styx - Cornerstone. On the surface, that may make sense. But, you are also comparing a mediocre album, Cornerstone, with the breakout and probably the best album those other bands produced. I'll tell you right now that if JOurney had all the Escape songs done and somebody demo'd "First Time", they would be cut off it at the end of the first chorus and it would never be recorded. ALL of the songs on Escape are OUTSTANDING.
"First Time" just doesn't hold its own next to any of the Journey songs you mention.

Just saying that the Styx narrative is always about how they went too soft when all their contemporaries seem to get a pass for doing the same thing.

First of all you are wrong. There are many complaints from both fans and band members of how Journey "went soft" on Escape.

But, if "going soft" means "Open Arms", "Who's Cryin Now", "Still They Ride" and "Don't Stop Believin".....I don't mind so much.

If "going soft" means "Babe", and "First Time", Well, that just sucks, and is a bit gay.

[Boomchild]

Both "First Time" and "Haven't We been Here Before" are way over-rated....especially First Time. Just because Dennis says it could have been a hit doesn't mean it would have. First Time sounds like an Air Supply song, not a Styx song. It is way over the top - to it's detriment. The falsetto sounds gay, as does the "Don't be afraid of love" segue into the first chorus. It is also far too long...or it seems to be.

Well, with FT there are those that don't seem to agree with you and it wasn't just Dennis. As mentioned here there we some radio stations playing it without it being released as a single. So they saw something in it. Which I believe is what sparked the record label to suggest releasing it as a single. Which Dennis didn't have a problem with but TS did.

[yogi]

They were playing the shi t out of Lights, First Time and Borrowed Time on WLOL in Minneapolis/St. Paul at the time.

WLOL used to have their own top 40 list and you could pick it up at different record stores around the Twin Cities. I promise this is the truth. When Babe was on the way down ( had already been at #1 for weeks) it was something mid 20's or 30's, First Time was something like #3, Lights was in the top 10 and Borrowed Time was like at #12. They had 4 songs in the Twin Cities top 40.

You could not go an hour without hearing a Styx song. This went on for well over 6 months. I kept these charts for the longest time.

They were so damn popular.

[Toph]

Really? Mr. Know It All Monkey Boy showing his ignorance again.

NO, it's a matter of pure opinion, not fact. The fact that you lower yourself to insults shows that you have little confidence in it.

First Time was getting Top 5 airplay in numerous markets without a single.

Prove it. Show an official chart. Show something besides DDY quotes or WIKIPEDIA. I have never seen any evidence that this is true so I would be very interested in it.[quote]

Wasn't on an official chart idiot because it wasn't a single. But it is all over the web from Dennis and others. All you have to do is look. Plus, I remember. https://dimple.com/rel/v2_viewupc.php?s ... 7502132392

[Toph]

I don't think it should have been the follow up to Babe, but it would have been an excellent 3rd single choice.

Meh. Cornerstone was a mediocre album full of mediocre songs that fans enjoy more that the general public. What singles were chosen and in what order after "Babe" really didn't matter - at all.

It's like when Dennis told Andrew that BNW's "I Will Be Your Witness" could have been a big hit. Of course, he would have had to produce it and THAT is why it didn't go anywhere.

It's all just talk and made up timelines.

---
Don't you have your panties in a knot? Funny you say Cornerstone was an album of mediocre songs. I seem to remember it hitting #2 ON THE CHARTS, THE HIGHEST STYX ALBUM CHART AT THAT POINT IN TIME. I also remember it getting FUCKING GRAMMY NOMINATIONS. I also remember it selling more in Europe than any other Styx album at the time.

Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

[Toph]

[quote="Monker"]

It's a gay sounding song at points. The intro bits to the chorus - gay. The bits where you can barely hear Tommy harmonizing - gay. The lyrics are so sugar coated that Richard Simmons would tell you to stop listening and dance with him before you got fat. It has some VERY gaY BITS.

[quote]

Again, quite offensive. Why do you continue to use the word "gay" so much? Mr. Heavy Metal Rocker boy not comfortable with his own sexuality?

[Toph]

Haven't We Been Here Before would have been a fantastic single. Someone at A&M thought so because they invested a lot of money on making that video. So, I guess the A&R department at A&M just decided to spend that money on the video because they wanted to? That would be a fireable offense. No, they were expecting big things out of HWBHB. It would have landed in the Top 20, no doubt and would have had a shot at the top 10. A second top 10 hit for Tommy Shaw. But good old Coke-head decided to self-sabotage that as well.

You go from "fantastic single", to top 20, to top 10. You are typing it and convincing yourself ofdthis bullshit. It is simply not the type of song that would have hit radio big in 1984. No way.

Kilroy did all it could do. By the time you dig down to "Cold War", "Haven't We Been Here Before" and "Heavy Metal Poisoning", you are hitting a bunch of mediocre songs that will all hit the charts in the same way.

Again, alternate timelines, and guessing games that you are presenting as factual or at least provable in some odd way. All you are doing is rejecting reality and substituting your own made up version.....and it obviously has all to do with Tommy being evil coke-head.

Hmmm....you really have a English comprehension problem, don't you? Not convincing myself as to the merits of the song. A&M records knew it. Test markets knew it. It had a big investment behind it. The only one that doesn't seem convinced is you. I guess your brilliant mind and musical tastes trump all that.

But you are right in that Cold War was a disaster.

[Toph]

I do agree with your assessment that FT should have been delayed. I would have gone with Lights 2nd, but then I would have released the hell out of First Time. Again, think about Journey Escape or Foreigner 4. Journey Escape singles - they went with a ballad in Whose Crying Now, a poppy upbeat song in DSB, a huge ballad in Open Arms, and then another ballad in Still They Ride. At the same time, they released Stone In Love to Rock Radio, but that was never a single. That album sold over 15 million copies and was one of the definitive albums of the 1980s. Not unlike a Babe, Lights, First Time, Boat on the River combo could have been for Styx (with Borrowed Time released to rock radio as a album track).

Wow. You are just so far off on this I'm not sure where to begin.

I guess I'll start with that none of these bands were singles bands. They were album bands. They had albums that sold double or triple platinum, with a few top 40 singles each.

Now, you mention Journey...I'll tell you that if you read Herbie Herbert's comments on success he'll say that back then it was desireable to NOT have a bunch of top 10 singles...because the label and fans would DEMAND a repeat of that single success. You actually have more control and longevity when you can consistently knock out a few top 20 singles and not worry about huge hits.

So, I absolutely do not believe, and I have NEVER believed, that Journey sat down in 1980 and tried to write what they felt would be charting singles. I have always believed that they wrote and recorded the best songs that they could and then let the label and management take it from there as far charts were concerned.

Now, you are comparing Journey, REO, and Foreigner to Styx - Cornerstone. On the surface, that may make sense. But, you are also comparing a mediocre album, Cornerstone, with the breakout and probably the best album those other bands produced. I'll tell you right now that if JOurney had all the Escape songs done and somebody demo'd "First Time", they would be cut off it at the end of the first chorus and it would never be recorded. ALL of the songs on Escape are OUTSTANDING.
"First Time" just doesn't hold its own next to any of the Journey songs you mention.

Just saying that the Styx narrative is always about how they went too soft when all their contemporaries seem to get a pass for doing the same thing.

First of all you are wrong. There are many complaints from both fans and band members of how Journey "went soft" on Escape.

But, if "going soft" means "Open Arms", "Who's Cryin Now", "Still They Ride" and "Don't Stop Believin".....I don't mind so much.

If "going soft" means "Babe", and "First Time", Well, that just sucks, and is a bit gay.

Again, you are really good at expressing your opinion at the expense of facts. Quite sad actually and quite pathetic. I'll repeat Journey had 3-4 soft rock singles on ESCAPE and it blew the doors off anything that Styx ever did sales-wise. REO Speedwagon had 3 of the 4 singles of Hi Infidelity be soft rock songs and it blew the doors off anything that Styx ever did sales-wise. You can tell me things are mediocre or "gay" (again, you must really be questioning your own sexuality today - you know this is 2017. Its fine if you want to come out. Just stop with the offensive language to make yourself feel better), but you don't have facts to back up your opinions. So, be it. But let's just be clear where your bullshit is coming from.

[Monker]

Really? Mr. Know It All Monkey Boy showing his ignorance again.

NO, it's a matter of pure opinion, not fact. The fact that you lower yourself to insults shows that you have little confidence in it.

First Time was getting Top 5 airplay in numerous markets without a single.

Prove it. Show an official chart. Show something besides DDY quotes or WIKIPEDIA. I have never seen any evidence that this is true so I would be very interested in it.

Wasn't on an official chart idiot because it wasn't a single. But it is all over the web from Dennis and others. All you have to do is look. Plus, I remember. https://dimple.com/rel/v2_viewupc.php?s ... 7502132392

Exactly. There is absolutely NO hard evidence that "First Time" had the type of airplay that would have made it a top single. None. Zero. But, it is repeated by people like you who accept it as fact. It's NOT a fact. It's an opinion. The FACT is that it didn't chart.

[Monker]

[
Don't you have your panties in a knot? Funny you say Cornerstone was an album of mediocre songs. I seem to remember it hitting #2 ON THE CHARTS, THE HIGHEST STYX ALBUM CHART AT THAT POINT IN TIME. I also remember it getting FUCKING GRAMMY NOMINATIONS. I also remember it selling more in Europe than any other Styx album at the time.

Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

It is a mediocre album. BAD albums chart at #1, too. BAD songs get awards. o what? You care far, far, far too much about charts and how well things sold.

Cornerstone is no GI or Po8. It isn't even as good as PT or even Equinox or Crystal Ball, IMO. You are comparing the songs on that type of album to Escape, the Diamond standard in Journey's cataloger. That is just STUPID.

[Monker]

Hmmm....you really have a English comprehension problem, don't you? Not convincing myself as to the merits of the song. A&M records knew it. Test markets knew it. It had a big investment behind it. The only one that doesn't seem convinced is you. I guess your brilliant mind and musical tastes trump all that.

But you are right in that Cold War was a disaster.

Oh, please. First, I like "Cold War". My point is that it didn't matter what single was next...Kilroy had played itself out If "Haven't We Been Here Before" had been released and bombed....because TOMMY pushed it. YOU would be saying they should have released "Cold War" because that is what Dennis wanted and he was right. And, of course, you are totally ignoring "HIgh TIme".

Labels release singles, not the band. If A&M REALLY wanted "First Time", that is what would have been released.There is NO WAY they believed in it as much as you think they did. Test markets know it? Prove it....show the results of the test markets. The had a "big investment" in it? Prove it....show actual numbers....not made up assumed BULLSHIT. If all of this that you are saying is true, than A&M would have released FT as a single. I simply don't believe it.. I think it is myth.

[Boomchild]

Labels release singles, not the band. If A&M REALLY wanted "First Time", that is what would have been released.

I don't believe this statement is correct. I believe I read\heard Dennis say that they had a provision in their contract that gave therm the ability to object\refuse single selections chosen by the label. Which does seem to make sense. Otherwise TS objections to FT being released would be moot. He would have no control over it.

[Toph]

[
Don't you have your panties in a knot? Funny you say Cornerstone was an album of mediocre songs. I seem to remember it hitting #2 ON THE CHARTS, THE HIGHEST STYX ALBUM CHART AT THAT POINT IN TIME. I also remember it getting FUCKING GRAMMY NOMINATIONS. I also remember it selling more in Europe than any other Styx album at the time.

Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

It is a mediocre album. BAD albums chart at #1, too. BAD songs get awards. o what? You care far, far, far too much about charts and how well things sold.

Cornerstone is no GI or Po8. It isn't even as good as PT or even Equinox or Crystal Ball, IMO. You are comparing the songs on that type of album to Escape, the Diamond standard in Journey's cataloger. That is just STUPID.

Again, your opinion and that counts as 1. By trying to make your opinion as fact is where you go off the rails. That is just STUPID.

[Toph]

NO, it's a matter of pure opinion, not fact. The fact that you lower yourself to insults shows that you have little confidence in it.

First Time was getting Top 5 airplay in numerous markets without a single.

Prove it. Show an official chart. Show something besides DDY quotes or WIKIPEDIA. I have never seen any evidence that this is true so I would be very interested in it.

Wasn't on an official chart idiot because it wasn't a single. But it is all over the web from Dennis and others. All you have to do is look. Plus, I remember. https://dimple.com/rel/v2_viewupc.php?s ... 7502132392

Exactly. There is absolutely NO hard evidence that "First Time" had the type of airplay that would have made it a top single. None. Zero. But, it is repeated by people like you who accept it as fact. It's NOT a fact. It's an opinion. The FACT is that it didn't chart.[/quote]


You really have a hard time distinguishing fact from opinion, don't you. I'm sorry our school system didn't service you better. I think they teach fact and opinion in first grade. Did you miss that year?

A fact is what has actually occurred. It is a fact that on the heels of Babe, First Time was getting airplay in many markets in the U.S. There is no way around that. As much as you hem and haw about it, this is a fact. When Styx didn't release it as a single, they failed to take advantage of that - Thank you Tommy Shaw. Would it have been a Top 5 hit? No one knows. That is an opinion when I state it would have been. That being said, given that it was following a #1 single and given that in many markets it had gotten significant advanced airplay, I do not think it is a stretch to say that it would have been a pretty big hit - much bigger than the fallback, Why Me.

[Toph]

Hmmm....you really have a English comprehension problem, don't you? Not convincing myself as to the merits of the song. A&M records knew it. Test markets knew it. It had a big investment behind it. The only one that doesn't seem convinced is you. I guess your brilliant mind and musical tastes trump all that.

But you are right in that Cold War was a disaster.

Oh, please. First, I like "Cold War". My point is that it didn't matter what single was next...Kilroy had played itself out If "Haven't We Been Here Before" had been released and bombed....because TOMMY pushed it. YOU would be saying they should have released "Cold War" because that is what Dennis wanted and he was right. And, of course, you are totally ignoring "HIgh TIme".

Labels release singles, not the band. If A&M REALLY wanted "First Time", that is what would have been released.There is NO WAY they believed in it as much as you think they did. Test markets know it? Prove it....show the results of the test markets. The had a "big investment" in it? Prove it....show actual numbers....not made up assumed BULLSHIT. If all of this that you are saying is true, than A&M would have released FT as a single. I simply don't believe it.. I think it is myth.

You are misremembering, but not surprising as you are one to promote your own agenda vs. facts. So, I guess I need to educate folks so they aren't mislead by your proverbial bullshit. Because I know exactly how that went down. Roboto went to #3 and DLIE went to #6. HWBHB was all set up to be the third single and the expectation was in would be Top 10 and a minimum top 20 - it had a massive video expenditure and was slated to be the summer single of Kilroy and help extend the albums life through the summer. A&M spent more than $300,000 to produce that video. You can be damned sure that there were extensive plans to promote that song.

Tommy's pushing of Cold War came out of left field and the record company and the rest of the band did not feel that it would be successful. He did not want the studio version. Instead he wanted the live version (the Sanger theater version) that ultimately ended up on the video portion of CITA. There was one person that wanted Cold War released as a single. Tommy Shaw. There was one person that didn't want HWBHB released - Tommy Shaw.

In yet another placating move to appease Tommy, the band stupidly agreed to not release HWBHB as a single - A&M was NOT happy. That was the beginning of the end of the relationship between Styx and A&M. There were 2 albums left on the contract, but the good vibes of the late 70s and early 80s were all but gone. As far as High Time, that was a throw away. No investment on the part of A&M. The album was dead in their eyes at that point. The only reason High Time was released was to satisfy the need for more Styx product in key markets. But as a national single, it was not going to be promoted. Even without promotion, it went all the way to #48 which speaks to how strong Styx still was in their key markets. A single with no promotion at all made it #48 nationally, which means in some markets it was Top 20. So, think about what a fully promoted, national single like HWBHB would have done.

On First Time, you just keep sounding moronic. So just stop.A&M wanted both First Time and HWBHB as singles. Styx, unlike other bands, had signed contracts which gave them much more control over single releases than other acts. In fact, it gave them veto power. That is what happened with both First Time and HWBHB. Signed, sealed, delivered.

You know that statement from Twain about "one be thought of a fool vs. opening one mouth and proving it"? You should take that one to heart, buddy.

[yogi]

CRAZY thing about Cornerstone & growing up in St Paul/Minneapolis. Babe, First Time, Lights and Borrowed Time got massive airplay on WLOL ( FM) in the Twin Cities. KQRS which was the heavier hard rock/ album station played Borrowed Time and Love In The Midnight often

Never ONCE did I hear the song Why Me on the radio. This song charted and never once heard it played.

What were the B sides to Babe, Why me and Borrowed Time??? Good trivia, and I do NOT know the answers

[Monker]

A fact is what has actually occurred.

Well, not really...but whatever.

It is a fact that on the heels of Babe, First Time was getting airplay in many markets in the U.S.

No, it's not. It is a fact that it was getting some airplay. But, how many markets is speculation. You do not know. Prove it. Offer up some document from A&M that shows what markets were playing FT. Also, the definition of "many" is a personal opinion.

When Styx didn't release it as a single, they failed to take advantage of that - Thank you Tommy Shaw.

Not true. Labels release music, not bands, and definitely not band members.

Would it have been a Top 5 hit? No one knows. That is an opinion when I state it would have been.

And, as I have said, it is an opinion based on myth created by statements of OPINION from DDY that have been raised to the point of being factual. That has made FT way over rated...because people like you believe in the myth DDY created and you repeat it as fact.

Also, you have specifically said it would have been a top 10 hit. So, I guess you really mean #6 - 10. That is pretty specific.

That being said, given that it was following a #1 single and given that in many markets it had gotten significant advanced airplay,l

Doubly not true. How many markets has not been established, and "many" is personal opinion. How much airplay it received in those markets is also not established. Please prove how much airplay in what markets the "advanced single" of PT had. "Significant" is also open to personal opinion.

Even your premise of following a #1 hit is wrong..."Why Me" followed the same #1 hit....how much did it help?

The further down this road YOU go, the more speculative you are and the less you are basing your opinion on reality.

I do not think it is a stretch to say that it would have been a pretty big hit - much bigger than the fallback, Why Me.

Wrong. It is your opinion based on a myth that real facts have not backed up. It is very much a 'stretch'.

And, that is why *I* feel FT is way over-rated.

[Monker]

[quopte]In yet another placating move to appease Tommy, [bold]the band[/bold] stupidly agreed[/quote] to not release HWBHB as a single - A&M was NOT happy.
[/quote]

Then quit blaming ONE MEMBER. Even YOU are admitting it was a BAND decision.

You can keep arguing until your fingers fall off but the singles on Kilroy dried up after DLIE. I don't care how much A&M invested, it does not make the song a better fit for radio. None of those songs stand out as singles that would perform on radio in 1983.

And, making all of these predictions based on previous (better) singles like Babe, or DLIE, even Roboto...are just GUESSES. The implied affect would also apply to whatever single was chosen instead of your favorite.

There were a lot of things going on in 1983. I remember bringing home both Kilroy and Frontiers at the same time. Listened to Kilroy, read the story in the album cover, looked at all the funky pics...and thought "what the hell happened to Styx." Listened to Frontiers and thought, "A goofy Roboto on the cover and no scarab but the album is almost perfect."

By the time summer of 1983 came around, I think a hell of a lot of people wondered what the hell happened to Styx. As was said, they are NOT Pink Floyd and putting out an album with a story is not what the masses wanted. I will always believe MANY more fans wanted "Rockin the Paradise" and NOT HWBHB, or DLIE, or Roboto. By the time it came for a third single, I doubt aNYTHING could have charted in the top 10 by Styx. Yeah, that's MY opinion. And, it is also my opinion that blaming the failure of a third single on Tommy Shaw is also WRONG.

A&M wanted both First Time and HWBHB as singles. Styx, unlike other bands, had signed contracts which gave them much more control over single releases than other acts. In fact, it gave them veto power. That is what happened with both First Time and HWBHB. Signed, sealed, delivered.

If it is a BAND decision, then quit blaming Tommy Shaw...they all had input and agreed to it, ACCORDING TO YOU.

[Toph]

[quopte]In yet another placating move to appease Tommy, [bold]the band[/bold] stupidly agreed

to not release HWBHB as a single - A&M was NOT happy.
[/quote]

Then quit blaming ONE MEMBER. Even YOU are admitting it was a BAND decision.

You can keep arguing until your fingers fall off but the singles on Kilroy dried up after DLIE. I don't care how much A&M invested, it does not make the song a better fit for radio. None of those songs stand out as singles that would perform on radio in 1983.

And, making all of these predictions based on previous (better) singles like Babe, or DLIE, even Roboto...are just GUESSES. The implied affect would also apply to whatever single was chosen instead of your favorite.

There were a lot of things going on in 1983. I remember bringing home both Kilroy and Frontiers at the same time. Listened to Kilroy, read the story in the album cover, looked at all the funky pics...and thought "what the hell happened to Styx." Listened to Frontiers and thought, "A goofy Roboto on the cover and no scarab but the album is almost perfect."

By the time summer of 1983 came around, I think a hell of a lot of people wondered what the hell happened to Styx. As was said, they are NOT Pink Floyd and putting out an album with a story is not what the masses wanted. I will always believe MANY more fans wanted "Rockin the Paradise" and NOT HWBHB, or DLIE, or Roboto. By the time it came for a third single, I doubt aNYTHING could have charted in the top 10 by Styx. Yeah, that's MY opinion. And, it is also my opinion that blaming the failure of a third single on Tommy Shaw is also WRONG.

A&M wanted both First Time and HWBHB as singles. Styx, unlike other bands, had signed contracts which gave them much more control over single releases than other acts. In fact, it gave them veto power. That is what happened with both First Time and HWBHB. Signed, sealed, delivered.

If it is a BAND decision, then quit blaming Tommy Shaw...they all had input and agreed to it, ACCORDING TO YOU.[/quote]


Wow, I actually am kind of feeling sorry for you now. Its really quite pathetic. Either you a) can't read, b) can't comprehend, or c) live in such a world of disillusionment that facts can't break through. I am not going to reiterate that A&M felt so strongly about the prospect of HWBHB that they invested 300K behind the making of the video and had a very active promotional plan behind it. On First Time, I'm not sure what you require. It wasn't on charts because it wasn't an actual single. Individual radio stations picked it up in many markets. I guess I would have to physically locate the individual play lists for the three-four weeks that First Time was getting airplay to appease you. But links to articles saying that it was getting airplay, DDY's own comments (I guess he wouldn't know), comments from people who worked in the industry at the time who definitely knew what was going on, and even Yogi saying he heard it quite frequently in Minneapolis. None of these things do the trick I guess, so I can't really help you that you live in that world of disillusionment. You remind of Trump with Obama's birth certificate. But given your propensity to spout out offensive terms like "gay," it makes a bit more sense.

If you want to keep making a fool of yourself, by all means.

[Monker]

. Either you a) can't read, b) can't comprehend, or c) live in such a world of disillusionment that facts can't break through.

The answer is d: You are mixing your own facts and opinions but I know you will never admit to it.

I am not going to reiterate that A&M felt so strongly about the prospect of HWBHB that they invested 300K behind the making of the video and had a very active promotional plan behind it.

What? That doesn't even make any sense. I'm not going to reiterate the fact that you reitereated what you said you would not reiterate. Dumb-ass.

But, that honestly proves nothing. Are you honestly saying Styx' hits are all manufactured by the label?

Since you compare things to Journey, let's compare Kilroy to TBF. Journey came out blazing with their reunion album. A good double single release of "When You Love a Woman" and "Message of Love". But, then it died. It died despite the album going platinum, dispite a hit single, despite a label pushing and promoting the singles. It died because "Journey" died while all this other positive stuff was happening. The label could not promote their way out of it.

By the summer of 1983, Styx was in the same type of situation. An album that alienated and divided the fans. A tour that was more of a stage production than a rock show. Some fans hated it, some fans LOVED it...but the entire thing blow up killing the band and album, and Tommy's hand along with the tour by the end of the year.

ANY single they released from KWH after Don't Let it End was never going to be big because the album was done.

On First Time, I'm not sure what you require. It wasn't on charts because it wasn't an actual single. Individual radio stations picked it up in many markets. I guess I would have to physically locate the individual play lists for the three-four weeks that First Time was getting airplay to appease you. But links to articles saying that it was getting airplay,

I NEVER said it wasn't getting airplay. Again, my point is that there is NO proof that it was significant. NOTHING has ever been shown that says "this is how much airplay FT was getting." Never. Then you get into "top 5 airplay." That is just made up, invented, bullshit. If there are no charts (and BTW, there ARE local charts, not just in MN), then that is a statement that is intended to exaggerate and PROVE somebody's opinion.

DDY's own comments (I guess he wouldn't know)

Comments in the aftermath of the settlement and his firing from Styx. Comments that are surrounded by him taking ALL of the credit for the hits, the sound, the production, most of the writing, comments saying it was HIS band, comments saying that only he could have made "I Will Be Your Witness" a big hit. And, finally, comments about Tommy Shaw's internet fans would drink his bathwater.

So, no, they are not to be believed without proof.

comments from people who worked in the industry at the time who definitely knew what was going on

What and who?

and even Yogi saying he heard it quite frequently in Minneapolis.

I already knew this. Back in the Edge days, on a different forum, a guy named Jay said the same thing about it being on the radio in MN. But, that's only one market. where was it in LA and NY and other big cities? And, if he could find a chart, that would be great...I bet we would all like to see it...and not just to prove a point.

None of these things do the trick I guess, so I can't really help you that you live in that world of disillusionment.

You go on and on about fact vs. opinion. But, you can't see that you are basing your facts on SOMEBODY ELSES (DDY's) OPINIONS. THAT is where the disillusion is.

You remind of Trump with Obama's birth certificate.

The FACT is that Obama DID produce his birth certificate....and Trump STILL complained. YOU have not been able to produce anything other than other people's opinion....and the people I know of (DDY) have a VERY biased opinion. There is another forum for this talk.

But given your propensity to spout out offensive terms like "gay," it makes a bit more sense.

Get a thicker skin. If you think saying something is 'gay' is offensive, what the fuck are you doing on internet web forums.

[Toph]

. Either you a) can't read, b) can't comprehend, or c) live in such a world of disillusionment that facts can't break through.

The answer is d: You are mixing your own facts and opinions but I know you will never admit to it.

I am not going to reiterate that A&M felt so strongly about the prospect of HWBHB that they invested 300K behind the making of the video and had a very active promotional plan behind it.

What? That doesn't even make any sense. I'm not going to reiterate the fact that you reitereated what you said you would not reiterate. Dumb-ass.

But, that honestly proves nothing. Are you honestly saying Styx' hits are all manufactured by the label?

Since you compare things to Journey, let's compare Kilroy to TBF. Journey came out blazing with their reunion album. A good double single release of "When You Love a Woman" and "Message of Love". But, then it died. It died despite the album going platinum, dispite a hit single, despite a label pushing and promoting the singles. It died because "Journey" died while all this other positive stuff was happening. The label could not promote their way out of it.

By the summer of 1983, Styx was in the same type of situation. An album that alienated and divided the fans. A tour that was more of a stage production than a rock show. Some fans hated it, some fans LOVED it...but the entire thing blow up killing the band and album, and Tommy's hand along with the tour by the end of the year.

ANY single they released from KWH after Don't Let it End was never going to be big because the album was done.

On First Time, I'm not sure what you require. It wasn't on charts because it wasn't an actual single. Individual radio stations picked it up in many markets. I guess I would have to physically locate the individual play lists for the three-four weeks that First Time was getting airplay to appease you. But links to articles saying that it was getting airplay,

I NEVER said it wasn't getting airplay. Again, my point is that there is NO proof that it was significant. NOTHING has ever been shown that says "this is how much airplay FT was getting." Never. Then you get into "top 5 airplay." That is just made up, invented, bullshit. If there are no charts (and BTW, there ARE local charts, not just in MN), then that is a statement that is intended to exaggerate and PROVE somebody's opinion.

DDY's own comments (I guess he wouldn't know)

Comments in the aftermath of the settlement and his firing from Styx. Comments that are surrounded by him taking ALL of the credit for the hits, the sound, the production, most of the writing, comments saying it was HIS band, comments saying that only he could have made "I Will Be Your Witness" a big hit. And, finally, comments about Tommy Shaw's internet fans would drink his bathwater.

So, no, they are not to be believed without proof.

comments from people who worked in the industry at the time who definitely knew what was going on

What and who?

and even Yogi saying he heard it quite frequently in Minneapolis.

I already knew this. Back in the Edge days, on a different forum, a guy named Jay said the same thing about it being on the radio in MN. But, that's only one market. where was it in LA and NY and other big cities? And, if he could find a chart, that would be great...I bet we would all like to see it...and not just to prove a point.

None of these things do the trick I guess, so I can't really help you that you live in that world of disillusionment.

You go on and on about fact vs. opinion. But, you can't see that you are basing your facts on SOMEBODY ELSES (DDY's) OPINIONS. THAT is where the disillusion is.

You remind of Trump with Obama's birth certificate.

The FACT is that Obama DID produce his birth certificate....and Trump STILL complained. YOU have not been able to produce anything other than other people's opinion....and the people I know of (DDY) have a VERY biased opinion. There is another forum for this talk.

But given your propensity to spout out offensive terms like "gay," it makes a bit more sense.

Get a thicker skin. If you think saying something is 'gay' is offensive, what the fuck are you doing on internet web forums.

I pity you. I really do. You're quite pathetic.

So, let's take this one by one. Trial By Fire vs. Kilroy. That's a great analogy. Albums released 13 years apart. One album being the first from a band in 10 years vs. one being the 11th in 12 years for the other. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But since you are willing to go there, let's. (Why do I waste my time with your idiotness, I have no idea).

Trial By Fire had 1 video. They put everything behind WYLAW and it worked splendidly. However, after it did its run, Journey had decided it wasn't going to tour behind that album. Record company immediately loses interest - no more videos produced and no real singles released. For Kilroy, THE RECORD COMPANY HADN'T INVESTED 6 FIGURES IN A VIDEO FOR THE THIRD SINGLE OF AN ALBUM THAT ALREADY HAD SPAWNED TWO TOP 6 SINGLES!!! How dense are you dude? You're fucked in the head if you don't think that song would have done well on the charts had they actually released the video and released the single.

I'm not going to address the same old Monker bullshit (the reason why you were removed from the Journey board). I think intelligent people understand where you are coming from. You just start to embarrass yourself after a while. So, like I said, I pity you. You're pathetic.

[Monker]

Trial By Fire had 1 video. They put everything behind WYLAW and it worked splendidly.

Not everything.

However, after it did its run, Journey had decided it wasn't going to tour behind that album.

Not true. Neal was very explicit in explaining that after they decided to do a reunion that there was a lot of talk if they were going to tour first (which is what Neal wanted) or if they were going to record and then tour (which Perry wanted). The decision to tour after the relesae was made well ahead of time. Then Perry had his "whatever" happen and refused to tour. They waited a VERY long time for Perry to get better before canceling their tour plans...well into a year after release of TBF.

Record company immediately loses interest - no more videos produced and no real singles released.

Absolutely completely wrong. You are so wrong that it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. Sony backed up the album with at least two more singles sent to radio..."Can't Tame the Lion" and "If He Should Break Your Heart"...and there was debate about releasing another, I think "Forever In Blue". They even budgeted for more videos and planned on doing one for "If He Should Break Your Heart" but Perry refused to do any more. Sony backed the album...period. You just have no clue on what you are talking about.

Also, Sony remaster the entirety of the Journey/Perry catalog and released them just prior to the release of TBF. Sony also sent special displays to retail to house and sell both TBF and the remastered Journey and Perry CD's.

Sony invest a LOT of money into TBF.

For Kilroy, THE RECORD COMPANY HADN'T INVESTED 6 FIGURES IN A VIDEO FOR THE THIRD SINGLE OF AN ALBUM THAT ALREADY HAD SPAWNED TWO TOP 6 SINGLES!!! How dense are you dude? You're fucked in the head if you don't think that song would have done well on the charts had they actually released the video and released the single.

Oh, poor Toph. He preaches to others about not knowing the difference between fact and opinion and yet he presents his own opinion as absolute and factual. It's not. Not at all.

Kilroy was dead by the summer of 1983 for the same reasons TBF died after a few months. The band was committing suicide...and as I was saying, there was a lot going on. The public is fickle and moved on to other things. No third single, regardless of what it was, was going to do any better.

I'm not going to address the same old Monker bullshit (the reason why you were removed from the Journey board).

Well, you are wrong about that. You obviously know nothing about it.

I think intelligent people understand where you are coming from. You just start to embarrass yourself after a while. So, like I said, I pity you. You're pathetic.

I'm not embarrassed at all. I know exactly where I am coming from and the points that I am trying to make, which you do your best to ignore. I don't care what you or others think of me. Well, except PinkFloyd dude. She has a crush on me.

[Toph]

Wow, Monkey. Before you post bullshit, here's a tip. Check your sources. Let's address your completely misguided post that said by summer 1983, Kilroy was dead. Kilroy was dead. Despite the fact that Styx was still in the middle of a tour that would last until late fall 1983. So, let's see here, don't take my word for it. On June 18, 1983, Kilroy Was Here was #8 album in the United States on the Top 200. I know neither you nor Styx remember what a top 10 album is/was since its been so long since they've been remotely near one, but they had the #8 album in the country when you say Kilroy was "dead." By July 4th, it was still #9. By the end of July, it was still in the top 20.Yeah, that would have been a really stupid move to prolong that chart life with a third release that came on the heels of two top 6 singles and develop an expensive video clip of a song that they were playing every single night in concert. Again, just stop embarrassing yourself with your lies and crap.

On Journey, I seem to have missed the professionally produced big budget videos for Can't Tame the Lion and If He Should Break Your Heart. Seem to have missed those songs ever being performed on stage or in any type of setting whatsoever. I don't even know why you are making the comparison anyway between an album released 10 years after Journey's last album in 1996, way after Journey's peak with one in a string of hit Styx albums. Its an apples to oranges comparison and the promotion is apples to oranges. Its funny when you laugh about my comparison of Cornerstone to an album 2 years after it (1 year for Hi Infidelity) in the same genre and then you throw out Kilroy vs. Trial By Fire.... Thanks for a great laugh on a Friday afternoon.

[Monker]

Wow, Monkey.

What's the matter? Feeling a bit frustrated?

Let's address your completely misguided post that said by summer 1983, Kilroy was dead. Kilroy was dead.

I was talking about its ability to produce singles. It was dead. People moved on. I don't care where a album is charted. There were ways of faking that.

Despite the fact that Styx was still in the middle of a tour

A tour that some fans were embarraessed by. A tour and album that, at the very least, split the fanbase.

they had the #8 album in the country when you say Kilroy was "dead." By July 4th, it was still #9. By the end of July, it was still in the top 20.

In other words, by the end of July, kerplunk. And, as I said, there are ways of faking a chart position. Back then, albums were counted by what left the warehouse - not by what sold (theory being; if it is not in the warehouse,it will eventually be sold). So, to keep position, all they had to do was ship more product. Don't know if that happened or not, but that is why I do not trust chart positions from back then.

Yeah, that would have been a really stupid move to prolong that chart life with a third release that came on the heels of two top 6 singles and develop an expensive video clip of a song that they were playing every single night in concert.

None of that would have mattered. As I just proved with WYLaW, that success did not help the singles that followed. It helped so little that you didn't even know they released other singles...and this is on a big reunion album.

On Journey, I seem to have missed the professionally produced big budget videos for Can't Tame the Lion and If He Should Break Your Heart.

You seem to miss a lot of things.

I said Steve Perry refused to do more videos. And, honestly, I doubt a video would have helped anyway.

Seem to have missed those songs ever being performed on stage or in any type of setting whatsoever.

Steve Perry refused to tour. And, tours do not sell singles, or albums....radio play does. EVERY song on Arrival was performed live on that tour...did it help sell the album or singles? NOPE. Also, you miss a lot of things, I do believe Augeri performed those songs in his early Journey concerts.

I don't even know why you are making the comparison anyway

Because they are both examples of what happens to albums and singles when a band falls apart.

Its funny when you laugh about my comparison of Cornerstone to an album 2 years after it (1 year for Hi Infidelity) in the same genre

Because you are comparing the diamond standard of Journey albums to the mediocre standard of Styx albums. If you want a valid comparison, compare it to Departure....another album that had a couple good singles with a lot of other mediocre songs on the album. I think Departure is the better album, but still closer in comparison than Escape.