Right Up Our Alley....Perhaps?

[bugsymalone]

Billboard
October 18, 2005
Define Partnership Terms From The Beginning
By Bill Siddons

Bill Siddons is a personal manager and partner in Core Entertainment. Additional clients include Alice in Chains, Jerry Cantrell, Elayne Boosler and Michael Glabicki of Rusted Root.





Imagine you started a group -- let's call it "the Few" -- and wrote all of its hits -- 10 in just five years.

Your partner, the lead singer, then decides to leave for a solo career. Still, promoters are offering $100,000 a night for the Few. There are opportunities for TV specials, merchandise offers and more.

So, who gets to profit from the brand you built together? Can you call your band with the new singer the Few, or is it the Fewer? Can your ex-partner use the name if his solo career fails? You wrote all the songs, but who decides whether your biggest hit, "Big One," is used in that Trojan ad?

Most important, what do you tell the kids? "Mommy and daddy still love you, but the vocals are going to sound different now"?

The passion that drives you to care only about creating art can blind you to the fact that you are also starting a business. From Day One, you are building assets with a bunch of partners -- it is like being married to several people at once. The surest way to protect your art for the future is to address that from the beginning.

Clear agreements early on can save you years of pain and heartache, preserve your finances and, most important, safeguard your relationship with your fans.

Ultimately, perhaps the most important asset you will be creating is the brand. Ownership of that brand may be the critical factor in determining who lives in poverty and who lives in wealth.

The list of bands that have lost one or more members who were crucial to their sound or brand identity reads like the roster for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: the Temptations, Pink Floyd, the Doors, Van Halen, AC/DC, Supertramp, Little River Band, Alice in Chains, Styx, Journey.

Despite key personnel changes, these bands still have active careers. The people profiting are the people who own the names (the brands) and are able to work under those names. They may not be who you think.

Often the brand lives on after the departure of the artists who have clearly been the creative force -- the unique face and/or voice. In short, the heart and soul of the band.

In some cases (AC/DC, Van Halen), the band goes on to redefine its sound and direction, and in the process redefines its brand. In others, the original sound is imitated, and that brand is used to enrich new members.

Consider the recent case involving my original client, the Doors. The drummer, John Densmore, and the estate of Jim Morrison sued the other two original members for abusing the trademark and using it without permission by touring as the 21st Century Doors -- and they won.

This story could have had a very different outcome. But because there were valid contracts signed, it was a relatively clear (though expensive) path. The partnership contracts provided that a veto by any member could stop a proposed project or use. No one ever imagined at the time that it would come to litigation and cold, hard cash -- but it did.

Now consider what happened to our recent client Birtles Shorrock Goble, the founding members, singers and songwriters of Little River Band. They now call themselves BSG.

Little River Band had phenomenal U.S. success during the late '70s and early '80s, producing music indelible to a generation of concertgoers and radio listeners. The brand the original members created -- including the name Little River Band, the acronym LRB and the symbol of the platypus in their logo -- was unmistakable to fans worldwide.

One by one, the original members resigned from the LRB corporate entity to invest in their families and their solo careers. Guitarist Stephen Housden, a non-original member who had joined the group well after the brand was established, was granted rights to the trademarks. He tours the United States, making millions annually, performing LRB classic hits and presenting his group as Little River Band -- although not one original member remains in the group.

Housden has sued BSG many times to stop them from making reference to their history or connection with Little River Band.

Under settlement agreements reached in 2002 in Australia and this year in Florida, BSG can make only limited use of the brand they created. And without control of that brand, they are unable to market themselves effectively. Essentially, they are artistically and economically silenced.

Sadly, the fans suffer most. No one has ever mistaken an Elvis impersonator for Elvis. A new band playing someone else's hits under the original name is no different than the performers doing Liberace or Judy Garland in the Legends of Las Vegas show. But it is legal.

If you are going to start a career in the music business, you should start it with your eyes wide open. Make sure you understand who owns and controls what is important to you, and that you have it in writing.

If your talent translates into greatness, and if you have a career that lasts, you must protect your art. Take control of it early, so instead of a legacy of bitterness and heartache, your legacy is about the music. Spend your best years onstage, not in court.

[Abitaman]

Good point
In case of Styx, Larry doesn't sound like DDY, that's good and bad. As om Journey's case, Augeri sounds like Perry, which also is both good and bad. But Styx and Journey still ride on. I don't blame them for wanting to carry on, and I still support them and all the members, because I think they are the best bands ever. REO carried on with Gary, Foreigner without Lou (twice now). But the solo artist should be able to reference their former band both in concert, sales, and promotion. I do not know how this works for these members that are no longer in the above bands, so........-ERIC

[ohsherrie]

"No one has ever mistaken an Elvis impersonator for Elvis. A new band playing someone else's hits under the original name is no different than the performers doing Liberace or Judy Garland in the Legends of Las Vegas show. But it is legal."

This is so sadly true. IMO I wish they would retire the name, or at least vary it in some way, when the star most identified with the name is no longer with the band. Continuing the name under, what I consider, false pretenses hasn't worked very well for most bands.

OK, I'm going all "Journey" on you guys. Sorry, I wish this was on the Journey board.

[bugsymalone]

This is so sadly true. IMO I wish they would retire the name, or at least vary it in some way, when the star most identified with the name is no longer with the band. Continuing the name under, what I consider, false pretenses hasn't worked very well for most bands.

OK, I'm going all "Journey" on you guys. Sorry, I wish this was on the Journey board.

Well, this DeYoungian agrees with you.

Feel free to copy and paste the article over on that board. It applies to a lot of bands and would interest a lot of fans, I feel.

Bugsy

[ohsherrie]

Thanks Bugsy, I'll move it there right now.

[Monker]

"No one has ever mistaken an Elvis impersonator for Elvis. A new band playing someone else's hits under the original name is no different than the performers doing Liberace or Judy Garland in the Legends of Las Vegas show. But it is legal."

This is so sadly true. IMO I wish they would retire the name, or at least vary it in some way, when the star most identified with the name is no longer with the band. Continuing the name under, what I consider, false pretenses hasn't worked very well for most bands.

OK, I'm going all "Journey" on you guys. Sorry, I wish this was on the Journey board.

You can say 'you wish' or 'they should' all you want. But, the bottom line is they don't have to.

Little River Band is the PERFECT example on all counts for this. When should they have changed their name? In the 70's when they went through a a few guitarists and bass players? In the 80's when their lead singer, Glen Shorrock, left? A bit later when one of the main writing partners, Beeb Bertiles, left? Should they have changed the name when the big three reunited in the late 80's? Should they have changed it when Beeb left again? Should they have changed it when the other of the main writers, Graham Goble, left? Should they have changed it when Shorrock left for the second time? Why should Housden be forced to chang the name NOW after all of the original members left - on their own - and left him with rights to the name? Just because the three main guys got back together?

No one may mistake an Elvis impersonator for the real thing...but people still buy the tickets anyway. They still go to the show. They are still entertained and come back again and again. As long as that happens, the band can continue on by the name THEY choose to use: Styx, Journey, REO, LRB....it's the law.

[Zan]

You're right. People don't mistake Elvis impersonators for Elvis - they reserve that for gas station and convenient store attendents.

[LordofDaRing]

My favorite example are the Beach Boys. No Brian, Carl or Dennis Wilson, no Al Jardine. All they have is Mike Love and Bruce Johnston who was not an original member...gimme a break. I don't care how talented the supporting cast are, this is not the Beach Boys.

[froy]

My favorite example are the Beach Boys. No Brian, Carl or Dennis Wilson, no Al Jardine. All they have is Mike Love and Bruce Johnston who was not an original member...gimme a break. I don't care how talented the supporting cast are, this is not the Beach Boys.

Yes it is the ticket says so
1 original member just like STYX
BTW I agree with you but it 's easy to see how ripped off people get,

[onestilllearning]

Is Styx still Styx with only one original member?

Yes and heres why imho - Styx is a band that grew and evolved when JC was replaced with TS the band got better. To me the heart and soul of the band was DDY, JY and TS . Those guys wrote and sang the songs. JP and CP great guys and talented musician are and were replacable. Technichally CP is still a member. Todd is a better drummer than JP and for my money you can insert any decent bass player to cover CP. So for me 2/3 of Styx is still there.

[sadie65]

Is Styx still Styx with only one original member?

Yes and heres why imho - Styx is a band that grew and evolved when JC was replaced with TS the band got better. To me the heart and soul of the band was DDY, JY and TS . Those guys wrote and sang the songs. JP and CP great guys and talented musician are and were replacable. Technichally CP is still a member. Todd is a better drummer than JP and for my money you can insert any decent bass player to cover CP. So for me 2/3 of Styx is still there.

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with them calling themselves Styx. Life is full of changes...some wanted, others not. It's what you do with those changes that demonstrates who you are.

So...that being said...I think we can circle jerk this some more. Comes down to that values thing again.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

onestilllearning says:

To me the heart and soul of the band was DDY, JY and TS . Those guys wrote and sang the songs. JP and CP great guys and talented musician are and were replacable.

It's still my favorite line up of STYX

[bugsymalone]

OSL makes a point. And others have talked about bands evolving, members in, members out, to create what tours today under the band name as being just as "legitimate" as the original band.

I think this article takes to task, though, the bands that have NO resemblence to what they used to be. Some with NO original members or members who created the hit music.

The Beach Boys most certainly are a prime example, to me, though Mike Love did sing most of their hits.

I look upon a lot of these touring ensembles as franchises, using the name, plugging in a member here and there, sometimes replacing the entire original lineup, but continuing on to tour and perform. Take the money. Next show.

If the fans like how the band sounds with all these replacement members, then fine. I won't quarrel. It is just not for me.

Bugsy

[kansas666]

Well first off, Elvis was not a band. Various pieces of his body did not break off to start families or go solo (well maybe his mind) He was not gradually replaced by a robot. So this analogy doesn't work.

Being in a band is a business. A brand is a powerful thing.

When there were no original members of Jefferson Airplane left, Paul Kantner sued for the name and won. The band went out as Starship.

Tommy and JY won out of court and are making a lot of money touring with the name STYX.

I have gone to see STYX 2-3 times a year since 1999. I have seen Dennis exactly once, with no plans to see him again. My entertainment dollar is much better spent at a STYX concert.

[mr.v]

Another great example of the "no original members left..." is Molly Hatchet.
The original singer is dead, the main guitarest is now with Lynyrd Skynyrd (Speaking of franchise bands - there you go) but none of the original members of MH remain, yet they are out there week after week.

I think Lynyrd Skynyrd are an intresting situation, all though only one original member is there (The keyboard player - Billy Powell - I think) they have replaced each missing member with famous members of other souther rock bands...
The guitarist from Molly Hatchet
The guitarist from The Outlaws
The drummer from Damn Yankees
the original singers brother

so they have become a walking tribute to Southern Rock but are they Lynyrd Skynyrd?

They have the name but...?

[kansas666]

I think Lynyrd Skynyrd are an intresting situation, all though only one original member is there (The keyboard player - Billy Powell - I think)

Actually Billy Powell isn't an original member. He was not on their first album. But he has the most seniority.

[bugsymalone]

I think Lynyrd Skynyrd are an intresting situation, all though only one original member is there (The keyboard player - Billy Powell - I think)

Actually Billy Powell isn't an original member. He was not on their first album. But he has the most seniority.

I would suppose seniority counts for something in the franchise.

JY legendarily holds that position in Styx.

Bugsy

[onestilllearning]

onestilllearning says:

To me the heart and soul of the band was DDY, JY and TS . Those guys wrote and sang the songs. JP and CP great guys and talented musician are and were replacable.

It's still my favorite line up of STYX

No question for reasons beyound nostalga (sp) thats the band I saw in 1978. While I do enjoy the current line up, TS's contention that this is the best Styx line up is just spin or worse maybe he believes it. This Styx will never fill a stadium of screaming fans, just a bunch of old farts re-visiting the past. ----But thats ok

[LordofDaRing]

You gotta cut LS some slack, if not for that awful plane crash, I am sure Ronny Van Zandt and Steve Gaines would still be in the band. The allman brothers are another one in question, they fired Dickey Betts one of the singer/songwriter/guitarists in the band who sang the awesome Ramblin Man. I agree with some of the comments here, you have to look at what each individual brought to each band. I tend to agree that Todd is a better drummer and that Chuck who did not write or sing could have been replaced by any number of fine bass players (GB was an excellent choice). Having said all of that, I think JY's contributions are still a bit overated to this bands history. In fact I would go as far as to say, Mr Burtnik's contributions on Edge, his dynamic stage prescence and Kiss Your Ass Goodbye blow away JY's contribution. Very few people when they think of Styx mention Miss America, Midnight Ride (which I liked), Southern Woman, Eddie, etc, etc. My favorite line up that never happened would be TS, GB, CP, TS and DDY as the new Styx. Much lighter tour schedule and a much better produced CD product.

[Abitaman]

You gotta cut LS some slack, if not for that awful plane crash, I am sure Ronny Van Zandt and Steve Gaines would still be in the band. The allman brothers are another one in question, they fired Dickey Betts one of the singer/songwriter/guitarists in the band who sang the awesome Ramblin Man. I agree with some of the comments here, you have to look at what each individual brought to each band. I tend to agree that Todd is a better drummer and that Chuck who did not write or sing could have been replaced by any number of fine bass players (GB was an excellent choice). Having said all of that, I think JY's contributions are still a bit overated to this bands history. In fact I would go as far as to say, Mr Burtnik's contributions on Edge, his dynamic stage prescence and Kiss Your Ass Goodbye blow away JY's contribution. Very few people when they think of Styx mention Miss America, Midnight Ride (which I liked), Southern Woman, Eddie, etc, etc. My favorite line up that never happened would be TS, GB, CP, TS and DDY as the new Styx. Much lighter tour schedule and a much better produced CD product.

My favorite line that never happened, would have DDY, TS, GB, JY, and Todd. Well I take that back, it did happen for one show-ERIC

[sadie65]

My favorite line that never happened, would have DDY, TS, GB, JY, and Todd. Well I take that back, it did happen for one show-ERIC

[/quote]

Such a difficult show to watch now. But one I will always cherish.

[Abitaman]

My favorite line that never happened, would have DDY, TS, GB, JY, and Todd. Well I take that back, it did happen for one show-ERIC

Such a difficult show to watch now. But one I will always cherish.[/quote]

Got the show on cd too, love to crank it up in the car. ERIC

[kansas666]

While I do enjoy the current line up, TS's contention that this is the best Styx line up is just spin or worse maybe he believes it. This Styx will never fill a stadium of screaming fans, just a bunch of old farts re-visiting the past. ----But thats ok

There are different ways to define best. Does it mean you fill stadiums, or have the most talented musicians on stage, or get along in the locker room?

Sure it is spin. And I think Tommy believes it. But how could he be wrong?

[mr.v]

"Having said all of that, I think JY's contributions are still a bit overated to this bands history. In fact I would go as far as to say, Mr Burtnik's contributions on Edge, his dynamic stage prescence and Kiss Your Ass Goodbye blow away JY's contribution. Very few people when they think of Styx mention Miss America, Midnight Ride (which I liked), Southern Woman, Eddie, etc, etc."

Got to disagree with you here. As musch as some members of this forum like to slam JY his guitar work and screaming backing vocals are as much a signature sound to STYX as Dennis and Tommys voices are. In fact it is that guitar work and vocals that tie the STYX sound together. He may not have written or sung any of the big hits but is is a HUGE part of what made those songs hits and I question whether those songs would have hit as hard with out his contributions. Not to mention his LOOK - back in the day - was as much representive of STYX as Tommy or Dennis. I will agree that JP & CP could have been replaced but pull JY out and I think you never would have seen STYX make the hits or impact on the music world that they did. You may not like him now but to disrespect or try to lessen his impact on the music is just not fair.

[Zan]

"Having said all of that, I think JY's contributions are still a bit overated to this bands history. In fact I would go as far as to say, Mr Burtnik's contributions on Edge, his dynamic stage prescence and Kiss Your Ass Goodbye blow away JY's contribution. Very few people when they think of Styx mention Miss America, Midnight Ride (which I liked), Southern Woman, Eddie, etc, etc."

Got to disagree with you here. As musch as some members of this forum like to slam JY his guitar work and screaming backing vocals are as much a signature sound to STYX as Dennis and Tommys voices are. In fact it is that guitar work and vocals that tie the STYX sound together. He may not have written or sung any of the big hits but is is a HUGE part of what made those songs hits and I question whether those songs would have hit as hard with out his contributions. Not to mention his LOOK - back in the day - was as much representive of STYX as Tommy or Dennis. I will agree that JP & CP could have been replaced but pull JY out and I think you never would have seen STYX make the hits or impact on the music world that they did. You may not like him now but to disrespect or try to lessen his impact on the music is just not fair.

Thanks, Mr. V! JY *IS* the glue that held our precious band together from about 1979 THROUGH--. Like it or not, without him, there would be no Styx after Cornerstone. And I also think the bitterness has tainted the consensus QUITE a bit around these parts. Trying to find an objective opinion here is like trying to find Dennis' natural hair line.

[Abitaman]

Trying to find an objective opinion here is like trying to find Dennis' natural hair line.

I haven't laughed this hard in months, Thank you-ERIC

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Mr. V says:

Got to disagree with you here. As musch as some members of this forum like to slam JY his guitar work and screaming backing vocals are as much a signature sound to STYX as Dennis and Tommys voices are.

I don't remember anyone slamming his guitar work. To me, his vocals have changed over the past few years. IMO

In fact it is that guitar work and vocals that tie the STYX sound together. He may not have written or sung any of the big hits but is is a HUGE part of what made those songs hits and I question whether those songs would have hit as hard with out his contributions. Not to mention his LOOK - back in the day - was as much representive of STYX as Tommy or Dennis. I will agree that JP & CP could have been replaced but pull JY out and I think you never would have seen STYX make the hits or impact on the music world that they did. You may not like him now but to disrespect or try to lessen his impact on the music is just not fair.

I agree with you for the most part. To me, why I feel like I do, doesn't have to do with the music, just personal. I personally don't care for his negativity and his bitterness in his recent interviews. I know he has every right to say what he wants too, but it makes him look bad. He should just focus on the current line up and put more positive energy promoting them. I'm sure he gets sick of the same questions, but he really went off on a radio interview and it wasn't good. He got what he wanted and I personally don't like the way he got it. Just my opinion. I'm trying to be nicer than what I used to be on the board. Positive Energy........

Zan says:

Thanks, Mr. V! JY *IS* the glue that held our precious band together from about 1979 THROUGH--. Like it or not, without him, there would be no Styx after Cornerstone. And I also think the bitterness has tainted the consensus QUITE a bit around these parts.

I somewhat agree with you. But sometimes I feel that he could've been replaced, not sure with who with the background harmonies.

I'm trying to lighten up on the bitterness, still trying

Positive Energy.....................

[DarwinNebraska]

Styx without Dennis = Joke
Journey with Augeri = Joke
Lynyrd Skynyrd post '77 = Joke
Little River Band = Always A joke
Doors 21st Century = Joke

All my opinions. All not getting one dime of my money.

Thank you and good night.

[Abitaman]

Styx without Dennis = Joke
Journey with Augeri = Joke
Lynyrd Skynyrd post '77 = Joke
Little River Band = Always A joke
Doors 21st Century = Joke

All my opinions. All not getting one dime of my money.

Thank you and good night.

Styx still good, but not as good/DDY still good, but not as good with Styx
Journey better, not hit machine of past, and missing the voice of rock, but better rock band
Lynyrd-never liked
LRB still doing ok
Doors-need to hang it up-ERIC

[ohsherrie]

Styx without Dennis = Joke
Journey with Augeri = Joke
Lynyrd Skynyrd post '77 = Joke
Little River Band = Always A joke
Doors 21st Century = Joke

All my opinions. All not getting one dime of my money.

Thank you and good night.

LOVIN' this post!!!! (just had to comment)