a common theme?

[stmonkeys]

so, as you all know, i purchased Slash's autobiography last month. I was reading this particular paragraph, and figured i would share:


"If you run down the history of the demise of great rock bands, more often than not you'll discover that many of them dumped their original manager on their way to grasping the brass ring, and once they did, it all got f@cked up. I'm kind of pissed off that we followed that tradition.

As self-destructive as we may or may not have been, and despite the communication barriers between the members, we had the desire to play music and move forward at all costs. That an outside influence completely disrupted the band really is a shame."

pg 324

this reminded me of styx right after PT. a series of poor decisions between band members & management ultimately lead to the break up in 83. interesting to see that other bands have suffered the same outcome.

[Blue Falcon]

Styx didn't have problems with their manager, as far as I know. JY ran most of the business side anyways. Styx's downfall was in part due to DDY's stubborn attempt to drag the band kicking and screaming in a different direction, and not necessarily a good one. But no one forced the other guys to stay in the band during that time, either.

Once DDY started writing Lawrence Welk-like tunes such as "Desert Moon" it was too late. I know I gave up on the band then and eventually burned my copy of Kilroy, polluting our atmosphere further.

[stabbim]

Do you know how to keep from getting charged for the ice below the floorboards of Chicago Stadium? Do you know how to do a headlining tour? Do you know Claire Rothman at the L.A. Forum? Do you know Bobbi Cowan, Lisa Robinson, Jim Ladd, Frank Barcelona? Do you know how you get a record not pressed but played? Do you know? I didn't invent the rainy day, man. I just own the best umbrella.

Yeah, with Styx I'd say the problem was not that they took on the "new" manager (Derek Sutton, in their case) but that somewhere along the line they stopped listening to him.

[stmonkeys]

Yes, I realize that with styx it wasn't necessarily a management issue. But once they fired Derek, they continued on a downward path with releasing KWH, (a project we know the band wasn't comfortable with), embarked on a tour of theatres that lost millions of dollars, tried to recoup it with a stadium tour which prob relied too heavily on the KWH project, and released CITA, a live album that didn't really do them justice. I was just musing that it might have been the catalyst. we know the wheels were already in motion.

[Rockwriter]

Yes, I realize that with styx it wasn't necessarily a management issue. But once they fired Derek, they continued on a downward path with releasing KWH, (a project we know the band wasn't comfortable with), embarked on a tour of theatres that lost millions of dollars, tried to recoup it with a stadium tour which prob relied too heavily on the KWH project, and released CITA, a live album that didn't really do them justice. I was just musing that it might have been the catalyst. we know the wheels were already in motion.

I agree wholeheartedly that once they went to Azoff, it was all downhill. It's an interesting question: would it have gone the same if they had stayed with Sutton? Hard to say . . . impossible to say, really. I think when artists get a certain level of success, it's typical that they start to de-construct the team that brought them that success. It's ego, and the fact that familiarity breeds contempt. They start looking too closely at a manager's shortcomings (and if you go looking for shortcomings in anyone, you will find them), and they use those shortcomings as a reason to dismiss someone who maybe knows them too well, someone who knew them before they were who they want to view themselves as now. It's easy, when your ego gets pumped up that much, to forget that a given person may have brought about the circumstances that allowed you to have success in the first place.

Here's something I wish I had clarified a little bit more in my book. The KILROY tour did not lose money in the sense that, if the guys left home with 500 dollars, they did not go home with 498 dollars after the tour. When they say it "lost money", what they mean is that it "failed to gain all of the money it could have". Some dates actually did lose money, but some profited, and in the end there was a net profit, albeit a much smaller one than projected. When they say it lost money, they mean as compared to the previous tour in support of PT. It's like saying, well, we only made 500,000 dollars, instead of 1.5 million; therefore we lost a million dollars. But in fact you did not lose a million dollars; you profited 500,000 dollars and are choosing to see it in the most negative possible light.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[stmonkeys]

Here's something I wish I had clarified a little bit more in my book. The KILROY tour did not lose money in the sense that, if the guys left home with 500 dollars, they did not go home with 498 dollars after the tour. When they say it "lost money", what they mean is that it "failed to gain all of the money it could have". Some dates actually did lose money, but some profited, and in the end there was a net profit, albeit a much smaller one than projected. When they say it lost money, they mean as compared to the previous tour in support of PT. It's like saying, well, we only made 500,000 dollars, instead of 1.5 million; therefore we lost a million dollars. But in fact you did not lose a million dollars; you profited 500,000 dollars and are choosing to see it in the most negative possible light.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

thank you for clearing that up, sterling.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Styx didn't have problems with their manager, as far as I know. JY ran most of the business side anyways. Styx's downfall was in part due to DDY's stubborn attempt to drag the band kicking and screaming in a different direction, and not necessarily a good one. But no one forced the other guys to stay in the band during that time, either.

Once DDY started writing Lawrence Welk-like tunes such as "Desert Moon" it was too late. I know I gave up on the band then and eventually burned my copy of Kilroy, polluting our atmosphere further.

[kansas666]

To paraphrase Sterling's book (sorry if I get this mostly wrong)

Derek Sutton mentioned that he had a 5 year plan for STYX but wasn't able to fulfill it when he was fired.

I also found it very interesting the way he was fired. He was sharing a taxi with Denny's wife on the way to Madison Square Garden when she went off on him about how Denny should be making more money. He mentioned that what he should have said was "we disagree on that"; but instead he said "P*ss off C%nt" The next day he was gone.

Too funny!

[sniper16]

if you really think about it, most great bands only have a run of 3 great albums, styx ran off 4, maybe they just got tired of each other, as for kilroy i still think its a really good record, the cincinnati concert was either sold out or close, and is still one of the best concert events ive seen. who else could pull off a show in a concert setting.tommy talks about the texas show and people booing, look at the other acts on the bill that was not a styx show. it was an event.
and remember
kilroy was here

[stabbim]

Derek Sutton mentioned that he had a 5 year plan for STYX but wasn't able to fulfill it when he was fired.

Right, that's what I was referring to in my post. I had forgotten about Azoff, so I guess the stereotype that Stacy cited does hold true, just in a second-gen sort of way.

I also found it very interesting the way he was fired.

Heh. "Derek Sutton: the real Ian Faith."

[Blue Falcon]

To paraphrase Sterling's book (sorry if I get this mostly wrong)

He mentioned that what he should have said was "we disagree on that"; but instead he said "P*ss off C%nt"

Yeah, I hate when that happens.

[Monker]

Slash did a radio interview on local radio which I heard one morning on my way to work. He was asked several times about GnR. He did not want to give too much away because was to promote the book, not spoil all of its contents.

But, he ended up saying what killed GnR was that Axl wanted all rights to the band name. He basicaly wanted to buy the rights from the rest of the band so he controled everything. That is why Slash quit, and he implied this is why the original GnR will never reuinite.

This also may strike some comparisons to Styx and the constant power struggle with Dennis...and why there will never be another reunion.

so, as you all know, i purchased Slash's autobiography last month. I was reading this particular paragraph, and figured i would share:


"If you run down the history of the demise of great rock bands, more often than not you'll discover that many of them dumped their original manager on their way to grasping the brass ring, and once they did, it all got f@cked up. I'm kind of pissed off that we followed that tradition.

As self-destructive as we may or may not have been, and despite the communication barriers between the members, we had the desire to play music and move forward at all costs. That an outside influence completely disrupted the band really is a shame."

pg 324

this reminded me of styx right after PT. a series of poor decisions between band members & management ultimately lead to the break up in 83. interesting to see that other bands have suffered the same outcome.

[stmonkeys]

Slash did a radio interview on local radio which I heard one morning on my way to work. He was asked several times about GnR. He did not want to give too much away because was to promote the book, not spoil all of its contents.

But, he ended up saying what killed GnR was that Axl wanted all rights to the band name. He basicaly wanted to buy the rights from the rest of the band so he controled everything. That is why Slash quit, and he implied this is why the original GnR will never reuinite.

This also may strike some comparisons to Styx and the constant power struggle with Dennis...and why there will never be another reunion.

so, as you all know, i purchased Slash's autobiography last month. I was reading this particular paragraph, and figured i would share:


"If you run down the history of the demise of great rock bands, more often than not you'll discover that many of them dumped their original manager on their way to grasping the brass ring, and once they did, it all got f@cked up. I'm kind of pissed off that we followed that tradition.

As self-destructive as we may or may not have been, and despite the communication barriers between the members, we had the desire to play music and move forward at all costs. That an outside influence completely disrupted the band really is a shame."

pg 324

this reminded me of styx right after PT. a series of poor decisions between band members & management ultimately lead to the break up in 83. interesting to see that other bands have suffered the same outcome.

well, i haven't finished the book yet, but i wouldn't be surprised. Axl has a LOT of issues.... Considering that we are STILL waiting (ok, not really) for Chinese Democracy, an album that will probably never see the light of day, (and if it does, will most likely receive little fanfare); GNR have been "finished" for a decade and a half.

who remembers Kurt Cobain taunting and screaming "Goodbye, AXL" at the MTV vid awards in the early 90s? - how prophetic (goodbye kurt as well)

[SuiteMadameBlue]

This also may strike some comparisons to Styx and the constant power struggle with Dennis...and why there will never be another reunion.

Never Say Never, trust me on that one, seriously! It's down to only one member, yep that's all........

Hey, the Jackson 5 are getting ready to tour again - LOL

[styxfanNH]

This also may strike some comparisons to Styx and the constant power struggle with Dennis...and why there will never be another reunion.

Never Say Never, trust me on that one, seriously! It's down to only one member, yep that's all........

Hey, the Jackson 5 are getting ready to tour again - LOL

Wonder who that would be??? If Styx isn't going to record new music, then there really isn't a reason to stay apart other than one member hates another.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Wonder who that would be??? If Styx isn't going to record new music, then there really isn't a reason to stay apart other than one member hates another.

I wonder - LOL The other guys that are currently in the band and even Dennis & Glen have nothing to lose for a reunion, nothing!

OMG, I just wish these grown men would just realize life is SO short!! It seems everyone that is still alive and was popular in the 70's & the 80's are reuniting. The people our age are the ones that are going to see them and pay the big bucks and at the same time bring the next generation to show our kids the music we grew up with. I love taking my kids to see Dennis and other bands from when I was younger.

[chowhall]

I wonder - LOL The other guys that are currently in the band and even Dennis & Glen have nothing to lose for a reunion, nothing!

OMG, I just wish these grown men would just realize life is SO short!! It seems everyone that is still alive and was popular in the 70's & the 80's are reuniting. The people our age are the ones that are going to see them and pay the big bucks and at the same time bring the next generation to show our kids the music we grew up with. I love taking my kids to see Dennis and other bands from when I was younger.

I think the biggest problem will be the amount of touring. Dennis will be comfortable with 20-30 shows a years. Will Tommy & JY? I think they'd probably throw Gowan under the bus to get Dennis back if the money was worth it. Would it? I bet Tommy & JY will make more money doing it this way than to cut the number of concerts by at least half. Then there is the attendance issue. Would Styx in the current situation really draw more people with Dennis than without? Now realize, Dennis is not going to do 100 shows a year. I think the numbers and more importantly the dollar figure would be pretty close to the same. Before the flame war starts, Yes, I'd love to see the Trinity back together again and I would prefer it to the current status. I just don't see it happening.

[stmonkeys]

i don't know if they would necessarily throw gowan "under the bus" to get dennis back. i think it would be interesting to have both of them in the band. Dennis could do his schtick, and play his occasional keyboards, while Larry covered most off the songs. And bring back Glen on bass. (sorry Ricky... ) THAT would be a tour i wouldn't miss. (as long as they skip Babe etc)

[gr8dane]

I am in the camp that do not think they will get back together.
BUT if the do,I think I would like them to take 6 or 7 songs from '100 years' and re-record them to see what would come out of that + some new songs.
'100 years' is a great cd,but I think it could be even better with a little help from JY and Tommy.

[styxfanNH]

The number of dates would be an issue for Tommy and JY. It's not a money issue, they just like being out there performing. Dennis would never do a 100+ shows a year. I don't think that anyone here would deny that. The question is that if Dennis came back, would they be able to market those dates differently than dates without. Perhaps Styx with Dennis Seyoung vs Styx. Can't imaging that JY could stomach that marketing. Another alternative would be for Styx to do 50 - 60 dates with Dennis then Tommy doing a Damn Yankees thing or a Shaw Blades thing to supplement the dates. I don't think that would make JY very hapy though, not to mention the rest of the guys. Not to mention that I think what we are seeing with Shaw Blades now is the last we will see of them unless Styx/Damn Yankees are touring together or Styx/Night Ranger is touring together. The only exception to that would be if they opened for another group.

[elmotano]

The number of dates would be an issue for Tommy and JY. It's not a money issue, they just like being out there performing. Dennis would never do a 100+ shows a year. I don't think that anyone here would deny that. The question is that if Dennis came back, would they be able to market those dates differently than dates without. Perhaps Styx with Dennis Seyoung vs Styx. Can't imaging that JY could stomach that marketing. Another alternative would be for Styx to do 50 - 60 dates with Dennis then Tommy doing a Damn Yankees thing or a Shaw Blades thing to supplement the dates. I don't think that would make JY very hapy though, not to mention the rest of the guys. Not to mention that I think what we are seeing with Shaw Blades now is the last we will see of them unless Styx/Damn Yankees are touring together or Styx/Night Ranger is touring together. The only exception to that would be if they opened for another group.

Have I missed something? Have Tommy or Jack, or any one in the know said that this Shaw Blades show will not go one? I know, when I saw them in April, they were talking about doing this every chance they get

[Zan]

Have I missed something? Have Tommy or Jack, or any one in the know said that this Shaw Blades show will not go one? I know, when I saw them in April, they were talking about doing this every chance they get

They said the same thing in Ft. Lauderdale.

[styxfanNH]

The number of dates would be an issue for Tommy and JY. It's not a money issue, they just like being out there performing. Dennis would never do a 100+ shows a year. I don't think that anyone here would deny that. The question is that if Dennis came back, would they be able to market those dates differently than dates without. Perhaps Styx with Dennis Seyoung vs Styx. Can't imaging that JY could stomach that marketing. Another alternative would be for Styx to do 50 - 60 dates with Dennis then Tommy doing a Damn Yankees thing or a Shaw Blades thing to supplement the dates. I don't think that would make JY very hapy though, not to mention the rest of the guys. Not to mention that I think what we are seeing with Shaw Blades now is the last we will see of them unless Styx/Damn Yankees are touring together or Styx/Night Ranger is touring together. The only exception to that would be if they opened for another group.

Have I missed something? Have Tommy or Jack, or any one in the know said that this Shaw Blades show will not go one? I know, when I saw them in April, they were talking about doing this every chance they get

I heard from someone close to them that these dates are likely the last. Something to the effect of not tourig with your best friend if you want to stay best friends. Obviously it could change, but that is what I was told.

[Zan]

I heard from someone close to them that these dates are likely the last. Something to the effect of not tourig with your best friend if you want to stay best friends. Obviously it could change, but that is what I was told.

Really, who? Because someone close to them told me that they had definite plans to continue these tour early into next year and whenever they could, and Tommy himself said right on stage that as long as people in my area were willing to come hear them play, they'd come down here.

[StyxCollector]

I wonder - LOL The other guys that are currently in the band and even Dennis & Glen have nothing to lose for a reunion, nothing!

OMG, I just wish these grown men would just realize life is SO short!! It seems everyone that is still alive and was popular in the 70's & the 80's are reuniting. The people our age are the ones that are going to see them and pay the big bucks and at the same time bring the next generation to show our kids the music we grew up with. I love taking my kids to see Dennis and other bands from when I was younger.

Well, maybe this is recent experience talking Suite Life and art sometimes tend to bleed together ...

But anyway, keep in perspective that even if said person agreed to do it, the amount of behind the scenes paperwork and legalities could easily kibosh it quickly.

I've always been hopeful - I mean, it's going on 9 years next year come May - but I just don't see it happening. The rest sans one person could all get together but the sad thing is they couldn't call it Styx.

[StyxCollector]

I heard from someone close to them that these dates are likely the last. Something to the effect of not tourig with your best friend if you want to stay best friends. Obviously it could change, but that is what I was told.

Really, who? Because someone close to them told me that they had definite plans to continue these tour early into next year and whenever they could, and Tommy himself said right on stage that as long as people in my area were willing to come hear them play, they'd come down here.

Given how long TS & JB have written and recorded together I don't see there being an issue. This wasn't TS with Styx on stage and playing the part of a shrinking violet for parts of the show. There was genuine, good interaction with JB and TS.

Even the best of friends have bad days, but I do not see them ending their working relationship or playing live together after this stint.

[styxfanNH]

Zan, I can't give up the contact because I don't want to loose the source. But part of it goes into how hard each wants to promote the band. Tommy thinks that you have to do the radio shows, the give aways, etc. and really work to make it successful, while Jack would rather pay someone else to do it and let the chips fall where they may.

Tommy wants to do it right. At least as how he sees it. I'm not saying that they won't tour again like this, just that it is very unlikely, as things are set up now, particularly behind the scenes where the managing and promoting of the band is,

You have to remember that these shows it is just them for the most part. Very different than the big machines that Styx and Night Ranger have behind them. Also based on the size of the venues they are playing 400-600 peeps, there is little room for error in the selling/promoting of the event. Noone is underwriting these shows now.

And while these two are really great friends, each has there own quirks that are different than the others. And Tommy puts a higher value on the friendship than the touring dates.

[stabbim]

Zan, I can't give up the contact because I don't want to loose the source.

So the "source" has no problem with you spilling all this info on a public message board, as long as they aren't named?

[LordofDaRing]

How bout this line up:

Jack Blades - Bass/vocals
Tommy Shaw - Guitar/vocals
Glen Burtnik - Guitar/vocals
Todd Sucherman - Drums
Dennis DeYoung - Keyboards/vocals

JY - unemployed

[styxfanNH]

Zan, I can't give up the contact because I don't want to loose the source.

So the "source" has no problem with you spilling all this info on a public message board, as long as they aren't named?

well he/she might, but no name has plausible deniability.