CORNERSTONE-was it really?

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CORNERSTONE-was it really?

Postby Abitaman » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:54 am

Cornerstone, over time, to me, has lost a lot of it punch. Really Of the big 4, this is the weakest. Put it on today, and although the sound is as smooth as silk, It just doesn't have all the greatness of the other big 4.

Something that cd has that the other big 4 have, is a song that really bites. Never Say Never is way to long for a song that sounds as redundant has it does. There are very few Styx songs that I DON'T care for and this one.

Rest of the cd is better. Lights is an uneven, ever changing song that is just awesome. Love the keys on this one. The interlude in the middle almost chanting ending.
Why Me should not have been a single, but the song is good, Takes a step away from the basic Styx sound (has a more of DDY solo feel to it), but it works. The sax comes off good.
Babe, love it or leave it, you have to admit, it gave Styx more chart success than anything in the past, or future. It is a good song though, no I take that back, a great song. Like the demo to this, with out the guitar solo on it.
Boat on the River is a masterpiece of sound. This is a slower song, that sounds better than most loud songs when cranked up. Love the different instruments the members play on the song, and the vocal mixture between Dennis and Tommy at the end, GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Borrowed Time rocks out, but kinda hangs up for a minute at the end of the intro. Plus the yes no part of the song, tends to bring it down some. That makes the song unique, and the quirkiness of this and others things Styx has done, makes it for a love or hate relationship with the causal listener who only knows the hits. IMO Styx was the American rocks since Queen, or like the Cars was to punk pop. I know we have had the discussion a couple of times on whether yes no should have been in the song or not. I like it in, but I have a version of the song without, and then it really rocks.
First Time should have been the second single since Babe was the first. lot of people said First Time was DDY trying to de rock Styx, not true. This wasn't the first time Styx used string in a song. Golden LArk comes to mind on 1974's Man of Miracles cd. But this did open a lot of people up to the ever changing sound of Styx. The song is good.
Eddie, although a great rocker, has that tired been there, done that feeling of a JY song. The song is sonically tight, crank it up and see (hear I should say). But like Midnight Ride, Miss America, Great White Hope, and many other JY songs, sing, key solo, axe solo, sing. Nothing new.
The closing song Love in the Midnight, is a good closer. It's tight,Tommy pushes his vocals, great harmonies, and good instrumental in the middle. Don't think they have experimented like this since :( .

This cd is Styx best produced cd, very clear, but with a good rhythm section running thru it. I guess you can tell DDY and Tommy were at odds. But not enough to keep from being a bad cd, just not as great as as it could have been. Most songs I can listen over and over, but on the cd, they just don't really connect with each other (like BNW)

IMO Borrowed Time should have been the first single, followed by Babe, Boat then First time, would have made more sense to me.
So was this a changing point for the band? I think so, but it was still good music-ERIC
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Postby classicstyxfan » Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:32 am

Eric,

Cornerstone was a BIG step backwards, after their 2 best releases IMO.
I recall at the time thinking.....oh God, Styx has sold out !! There is no question in my mind this CD was put together with a balance tipped farther towards creating sales ( a pop music sound ) instead of the true rock and roll product in their most recent past.

It has a few good songs, I am partial to Love in the Midnight, and Babe is good at being what it is ( De Young should have launched his solo career with it and First Crime.......would have kept Styx fans happier ! )

Sorry, I'll take Crystal Ball over this one any day of the week....Styx II as well. It was never in my big 4. Cornerstone was the beginning of the slide downward for Styx
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Postby Abitaman » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:39 pm

The big 4 to me was the 4 biggest in sales. GI, PO8, Conerstone, and PT were 3 x times plat. Big 4 as for favorites are 1) GI, 2) PT, 3) PO8, and 4) Clylorama. Cornerstone is # 5. So I guess for a very long time my big 4 were THE big 4 :D -ERIC
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Postby SuiteMadameBlue » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:05 pm

OMG, Cornerstone is one of my favorite albums of ALL times!! This is THE album that I listened to the most in my life. I remember when I received this album (I was about 12 years old) I played it over and over and over. I even thought "Babe" was THE song. I remember the school dances and dancing to "Babe" - WOW

This album brings back a ton of happy childhood memories of my favorite band Styx, they could do no wrong - LOL

"Lights" - I LOVE this song!! I get so emotional when I hear it in concert!! One of my favorite Tommy songs!

"Why Me" - Love this song too!! Great lyrics, just perfect! I always wonder "Why Me" - LOL

"Babe" - I know a lot of people complain about this song, come on, it's a #1 hit!! During that time it was one of the most popular songs, ballad. I know most of you loved it then!!!

"Never Say Never" - see I do love the harmonies on this one. I love this Tommy song.

"Boat on The River" - LOVE this song too!! So relaxing so Tommy!!
Love the harmonies once again!! I love watching this video over and over :)

"Borrowed Time" LOVE this song too, love the harmonies. I thought this was a very different song when it came out. I loved how Styx had a variety of music with each song. I'm so glad to hear Dennis play this in his concerts.

"First Time" - if this was released, this would've been a #3 hit, no doubt about it. Unbelievable that Tommy put a stop to have this one released. Darn him!! I love Dennis' radio version of this song, WOW. I do love this song :)

"Eddie" - okay song. It's my second favorite JY song.

"Love in the Midnight" - This is now one of my favorite songs on the album, it wasn't when I was younger, but now it is! Again, I love the harmonies on this one!!

STYX sure had a lot of great harmonies with all their songs. Too bad it will never be again!!
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Postby classicstyxfan » Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:32 pm

Suite,

I am not surprised you loved this CD as a 12 year old girl....this was the 1st Styx CD aimed at a younger listener. Dont get me wrong, it's a good CD and all, just had the misfortune of following several releases that were so much better then good.
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Postby bugsymalone » Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:38 pm

Cornerstone has mostly some terrific songs on it, some of Styx’ best in my estimation, with only a couple of ones I do not care for.

I have always thought Lights was one of their very best. Cool bluesy, jazzy break and wonderful melody and harmonies.

Why Me is also a most enjoyable song. Great melody and words. Dennis’ vocals are stellar on it.

Babe. Ok….Babe. This song is so maligned, but it is, simply and basically, a sweet love song. So many of these life-on-the-road-is-hell-on-us-babe tunes were recorded before and after Babe, but this one stands the test of time for its simplicity and beauty. Am I tired of hearing it? Oh yes! But it has become a sort of sing-along staple at DDY concerts and that makes it enjoyable to experience still.

Never Say Never is such a great song. What’s not to like? Ok, a few dumb lyrics, but Tommy’s vocals are also stellar on it. Some of his best ever.

I was so glad Dennis insisted they include Boat on this album. SO different, but a real testament to their versatility.

Borrowed Time to me is one of the best Styx songs ever. It has a cool keyboard intro and lyrics that (other than the dated “here come the eighties” opener) stand the test of time. As relevant today as they were then. Maybe moreso. And Dennis sings the hell out of this one. One of my all-time fave Classic Styx songs.

I think Love in the Midnight is one of Tommy’s very best songs. The music is haunting. I love the switch from minor to major keys in it. Awesome Classic Styx harmony, too.

The only two clunkers in my view are First Time and Eddie. Both of these join my trifecta of most disliked (by Bugsy) Styx songs (Shooz is the other).
First Time is as syrupy and smarmy as Babe is sweet and genuine. Eddie is a dopey JY song and he has a lot of them.

This album certainly took Styx into a more pop oriented direction and we all know it caused a huge rift in the band that Kilory finally broke apart.

But it is a very good Styx album. Love the majority of it.

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Postby sadie65 » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:08 am

Overall I like Cornerstone, though I find it is not one of their albums that I listen to with any sense of regularity.

My favorite track on the album is Boat on the River. I have always enjoyed when they incorporated different musical elements into the mix.

First Time for me has always been a saccharine overload.

Babe...is such a simple song...and let's face it, there are a lot of guys out there who use that term. I think what sold the song for so long was it's background..."the love story". Now, I find the song almost too simplistic.

I could live without Eddie.

Borrowed Time has always been fun for me.

Lights and Love in the Midnight are nice to listen to on occasion.

While I don't know that I would call the album a sell out to appease the masses because I do think the band was always stretching itself with each album, I do think this one represented a very large shift in style.
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Postby jthansen1 » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:44 am

eddie now there is a great song, I only wish that the time I saw ted kennedy that i would have asked him what he thought of the song
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Postby ek88 » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:19 am

I got into Styx in the mid-80s and when I picked this one up, the only other Styx albums I owned (and had heard in their entirety) were Grand Illusion and Paradise Theater. I bought Pieces Of Eight right around the same time, but honestly don't remember which I bought first. Anyway . . .

Lights: I remember liking this from the get go and still do. One of the best tracks on the album.
Why Me: A bit dorky, but not a far cry from Lonely People and Nothing Ever Goes As Planned, which I've always had kind of a soft spot for. All in all,I give it a thumbs up.
Babe: In retrospect, it fits into the Styx sound with songs like Best Of Times and Don't Let It End. Not a song I choose to revisit very much these days, but I still enjoy it when I hear it.
Never Say Never: Just a cool, upbeat song that I dig.
Boat On The River: Awesome song. See bugsy's remarks.
Borrowed Time: Possibly my favorite song on the album. Nice guitar solo, nice keyboard work, and I love Dennis' vocals on this one. I think his best vocal performances with the band were this song and Rocking The Paradise.
First Time: Even when I first heard it, I remember thinking WHAAAATTT? Still sounds as out of place to me now as it did then. Definitely should've been held back for the Desert Moon album.
Eddie: Not one of JY's strongest. If there ever was a token JY song on an album, this was it.
Love In The Midnight: Love this song to death. Wish it would've become more of a cult classic among Stygians and found its way onto the radio waves, but oh well.

No one is ever going to confuse this album with Styx' widely considered best work (GI/POE), but it still has enough merit to at least be mentioned in the same sentence with the other big 4!
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Postby BlackWall » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:18 am

"Cornerstone" and "Paradise Theatre" were the first two Styx albums I ever owned(though, we're talking 1995.. :oops:).

It's interesting, that when I picked those albums up in late '95, I had no idea what a departure they were for the band. "Cornerstone" was the beginning of the departure, and there for was a little undeveloped and weak in places, but by the time "Paradise Theatre" had come around, the band had perfected this new smoother Pop/Rock sound.

I do remember being disappointed by "Cornerstone".. I really liked the artwork, and the whole mood of the designs, but the album just seemed a little weak. I think it's a decent listen, though, from start to finish, there probably isn't a song that I "can't" listen to(Eddie would be my first thought), but I just don't think this one features their best material.

"Lights" and "Babe" are honestly the only great songs for me.

Some songs might have had more of a chance had they been arranged a little differently; my first thoughts go to "Love In The Midnight" and "Borrowed Time". I know it's probably a tired statement from me, but I really dig the way "Love In The Midnight" begins, but then the chorus is a huge letdown.. "Borrwed Time" is not a bad listen at all, but there just seems to be something that holds it back from being a truly classic Styx song..

I also notice with this album the way that the band seems to repeat elements of other songs. "Lights" sounds a little like "I'm Okay", "Fooling Yourself" and even "Pieces Of Eight". As someone else mentioned, "Eddie" sounds like every J.Y. song he did since "The Grand Illusion", and "Eddie" is no "Miss America"; "Half Penny, Two Penny" would be a better effort, at least lyrically. "Love In The Midnight" reminds me of "Suite Madame Blue", at least the guitar during the first verse.

As for the songs that were the biggest departures: "Babe", "First Time", "Why Me", and "Boat On The River". "Babe" is a great song about separation; whether it's about life on the road, or a relationship needing to take a break. It is a fairly simple song, but Dennis really did a fine job getting the emotion across. Now, did this belong on a Styx album? I don't know.. I really do agree with the point Dennis made on "Behind The Music", as far as not putting limits on creativity, but if the rest of the band didn't want to go in this direction, then maybe it should have been saved for his first solo outting.

"First Time" just didn't have the same charm as "Babe". Yes, had "First Time" been issued right after "Babe" as a single, it probably would have gone Top 10, but I can't really fault Tommy and J.Y. for not wanting to go this route.

"Why Me" was one of the first songs I was originally drawn to, but I have found that it hasn't aged too well; it is kind of catchy, but Dennis has expressed this sentiment better on other songs. I just find this one to be a little too contrived.

"Boat On The River" is probably close to being as big of a departure as "Babe". While it's never been one that I can really get into, it was cool for the band to stretch their boundaries, especially musically.

and lastly..
"Never Say Never": What can I say, this is not one of Tommy's better efforts, but it honestly has become one of my guilty pleasures over the years. There's something about the verses that is really appealing; great vocal from Tommy.
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Postby styxfanNH » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:44 am

I'm listening to Cornerstone right now. I have two issues with this album, and I will say that of all the Styx albums it is on the bottom of my frequently played list.

Each song for the most part stands alone, but collectively they don't blend well. By that I mean one song doesn't lead you to the next and the flow of the album seems choppy. Of all there A&M albums, it is more like a collection of songs than an album that has a message or theme, which is what differentiated Styx from other artists.

Also the production of the album is different from their other albums. The lead vocals are really pushed forward in the mix moreso than in any of their other albums. It really looses that Styx sound and feel. Each song really featured the lead singer with the other members much more in the background. Also the 60 second instrumental that Styx is known for that appears in the middle of their songs is absent from many of the songs on this album.

Never Never feels like it was left over from Pieces of Eight

Also, this is the album that seemed to have fans really identifying with one singer opposed to the others.

Do you agree with me? Yes No Yes No No Yes No Yes...
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Postby SuiteMadameBlue » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:04 am

I like the "Yes" "No" parts now on "Borrowed Time". LOL
It bugged me for the longest time, but now I love it.

I heard Cornerstone at LEAST 4 times this weekend!! What a GREAT cd!! I feel like I'm 12 years old again each time I listen to it, well kind of, well maybe not, anyway it's a GREAT, GREAT, GREAT album that Styx put out!!
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Postby bugsymalone » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:38 am

Do you agree with me? Yes No Yes No No Yes No Yes...


As George Carlin used to say "definitely noyeah."

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Postby LordofDaRing » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:30 pm

I always like this album...er...CD. Not as much as GI, Paradise, Pieces, Equinox or Crystal...but I still ocassionaly throw it in the car and listen on the drive in. Makes great commute stuff. I do think there was some A&M pressure to put a bit more commercialism on this one and maybe the boys bent a bit. But I don't think any of us suffered that much...did we:

Lights - Fantastic song, love the opening and the conversations that get included in the song.

Why Me - grown on me, sing it to myself when I am in a bad mood

Babe - grown on me too

Never say never - underated song and superb TS vocal

Boat on the River - Never really got into this one

Borrowed Time - One of my favorite rockers from Styx

First Time - Shoot me, I like this one, I think it came from to many great slow dances in high school. This came out during my senior year (hubba hubba)

Eddie - As much as I have slammed JY, this is my favorite JY tune. He rocks, the guitar solo and keyboard solo rock. Did they ever do it live?

Love in the Midnight - Pretty good, could have been on Pieces with those wild Ah ah ah backing vocals.
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Cornerstone

Postby AnnieOprah » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:00 am

Yes, Cornerstone was a dramatic shift. But I say that had Cornerstone NOT happened and Styx did not go off into the direction they did, that they would have been dead by 1981. The easy thing to do is to bash Cornerstone. What is not so easy is to understand the direction the music scene was heading in the early 80s. Those bands that did not adapt, died. Those bands that did adapt flourished. Journey went from being a jazz fusion band on their first 3-4 albums to a strict Album Oriented Band on their next 3 albums. Then in 1981, they come out with Escape and it is a huge departure, just like Cornerstone and very pop oriented. But it gives them another 4-5 years of life. Kansas, on the other hand, does not evolve. And afte their two huge albums in the late 70s (Left Overture and Point of Know Return), they continue putting out the same album sound and feel and promptly stop charting soon after that. I agree with the one thing Dennis says in that it is called the "Music Business", with Business being the operative word. You have to understand the trends and adjust accordingly. Styx was able to do that and it bought them another 3 huge hit albums.

So lets not be too rough on Cornerstone. Was it perfect? No. Was it successful? Yes. Could it have even big bigger? Absolutely. The singles on that album should have been - Babe, Lights, and First Time. All could have hit the top 10 and, by putting Lights in there, you cut into the sugary saccrine of Babe and First Time a bit. Think of Journey's single release strategy on Escape - they went Who'S Cryin Now (Ballad), Don't Stop Believin (pop rocker), and Open Arms (sugary ballad). And that album sold 10 million copies.

The best songs on Cornerstone - Lights, Babe, Boat, First Time, Borrowed Time

OK songs - Why Me, Never Say Never, Love In The Midnight

Skip em every time - Eddie
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Postby AnnieOprah » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:38 am

One other thing about Cornerstone...

As an record sleeve, it was by far the coolest Styx album in the way it opened up and revealed the silver Cornerstone inside. And trying to figure out all the messages and codes on the album was quite interesting.
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Postby DamnYankee » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:59 am

Did they actually have a meaning to be found? I never really paid much attention.
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Postby gr8dane » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:07 am

Best thing, of the worst A&M album to this point was,,that they finally made it to Denmark for promoting themselves.My first show of them.
Repeating myself,,Babe is a nice Dennis song,BUT a shit Styx song.
A nugget or 2 here, but that's it.
I am comparing everything to Equinox,which was my introduction,(and my favorite),therefore this is a C+.
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