Perry, Sony, Solo vs. Jrny and the TBF Fall Out

[Granny]

OK and being sexy as hell for a 57 yearold without even friggin trying.....is a major plus!

It's been written that when certain women get a certain age, ANYTHING in pants looks sexy.

LOL, but it would be my guess that statement was written by some nasty old fart who thinks every woman lusts after him personally.

And I guess I would be a "certain age" and I can promise you I do not think anything in pants looks sexy.

Guess, I'm in that :certain age" and I agree with u. some jerk wrote that!!!He must be jealous

[Deb]

OK and being sexy as hell for a 57 yearold without even friggin trying.....is a major plus!

It's been written that when certain women get a certain age, ANYTHING in pants looks sexy.

Leave it to the lewd and lascivious crowd to try and ruin a good music discussion.

LMAO, this is coming from somebody who's got a naked Nicole as his avatar. I just enjoy the finer things in life, I'd rather be lewd and lascivious than wound so tight I can't breathe. And I must not have reached that certain age yet because there's many a man in pants that doesn't look sexy. What I can't quite figure out is why you have such an issue with me or any other female fan finding Perry (or JSS or any other rockstar) sexy.

By the way, it's also been written that when certain men get a certain age, they can't get it up anymore.....hmmmm....maybe there is some correlation there. Chill!

[Deb]

Let me say this about Steve Perry. The man is quite possible the best rock vocalist of all time. That said, my problems with Perry are the fact that in early 1987 he decided to walk away from the band without a word. According to all statements, articles, interviews, etc., this is a fact. He did not communicate his intentions to the rest of the band and essentially left them in limbo. After a few years Jon and Neal figured it and moved on. It wasn't until there was a planned reunion with Rollie and Chalfant on vocals, that Steve got the "itch" to be in Journey again, but again only on his terms. Now I do blame Neal and Jon for going this route for TBF, big big mistake in my opinon. Then the second communication break down by Perry towards the rest of the band.

Also, Perry, who said he "Never Felt like Part of the Band", was absolutely controlling everything. If he truelly felt that way, it was because he parted himself from the rest of the band, not the rest of the band pushing him out.

I do think think these are the main reasons alot of people have some "resentment" towards Perry. At least it is for me. And for I guy who " Never Felt like part of the Band" to come out and say "Don't Crack the Stone" was just way out there to me.

I may not agree with your opinion, but I can understand it.

[Blueskies]

maybe Neal and Jon simply did not return Perry's call's?

[SF-Dano]

maybe Neal and Jon simply did not return Perry's call's?

Funny shit right there.

[Carlitto H@kk]

maybe Neal and Jon simply did not return Perry's call's?

You're probably right...

Neal and Jon are probably both well versed in the old childrens' story,
"The Boy Who Cried Wolf"...

Bullshit only floats for so long.

[Moose]

Let me say this about Steve Perry. The man is quite possible the best rock vocalist of all time. That said, my problems with Perry are the fact that in early 1987 he decided to walk away from the band without a word. According to all statements, articles, interviews, etc., this is a fact. He did not communicate his intentions to the rest of the band and essentially left them in limbo. After a few years Jon and Neal figured it and moved on. It wasn't until there was a planned reunion with Rollie and Chalfant on vocals, that Steve got the "itch" to be in Journey again, but again only on his terms. Now I do blame Neal and Jon for going this route for TBF, big big mistake in my opinon. Then the second communication break down by Perry towards the rest of the band.

Also, Perry, who said he "Never Felt like Part of the Band", was absolutely controlling everything. If he truelly felt that way, it was because he parted himself from the rest of the band, not the rest of the band pushing him out.

I do think think these are the main reasons alot of people have some "resentment" towards Perry. At least it is for me. And for I guy who " Never Felt like part of the Band" to come out and say "Don't Crack the Stone" was just way out there to me.

Very Well said...

Its not venom towards Perry as 'a person' you may see here.
Its venom at some of the decisions it seems he forced the band to make. His control over ROR was the reason Ross and Smitty were ousted and his control also led to the direction of that album. Were his vocals awesome, Absolutely. Was the songwriting up to par with Frontiers and Escape, hardly. And the same can be said for TBF but TBF was FAR worse than ROR; totally uninspired.
Although fans miss 'The Voice", I think Perry and Journey seperating was the best thing for both parties. Perry can now do whatever he wants and Schon, Cain and the rest of the guys can do thier own thing without the hassles of meeting Perry's 'Standards'. I know folks like Saint John keep hinting at Perry doing something soon; I will be first in line if he does

Excellent points by both of you.

[Matthew]

That said, my problems with Perry are the fact that in early 1987 he decided to walk away from the band without a word. According to all statements, articles, interviews, etc., this is a fact. He did not communicate his intentions to the rest of the band and essentially left them in limbo.

Really? I remember a scene in the BTM which recalled a meeting between Perry, Schon and Cain in early 1987 when Perry told them he was "toast" and was unable to continue.

Now I do blame Neal and Jon for going this route for TBF, big big mistake in my opinon.

Well, I'm glad the classic line-up recorded one last album. TBF might not have been as wonderful as the records from the 1980s - but I'd hardly call it "a big, big mistake".

Also, Perry, who said he "Never Felt like Part of the Band", was absolutely controlling everything. If he truelly felt that way, it was because he parted himself from the rest of the band, not the rest of the band pushing him out.

Except he did make that comment after he'd just been ousted from the band.

[Matthew]

His control over ROR was the reason Ross and Smitty were ousted and his control also led to the direction of that album.

I reckon you're under-estimating Schon and Cain's role in the group at that time. Yes, Perry was the dominant force - but Schon and Cain were hardly passive bystanders.

Also - Smith and Valory are routinely portrayed as victims. Isn't it true to say that the friction within the band at that time was partly their responsibility too?

Was Smith being too precious about his drumming? Was he - unlike Don Henley, Phil Collins, Neal Peart - failing to adapt to the use of drum technology in the md-80s? Was he frustrated with the limitations of being 'just' a rock drummer? And did his attitude make the recording sessions too slow and difficult?

And Ross? He was hardly a stable and fulfilled peson at that point in his life. Is it possible that he too was contributing to the terrible atmosphere within the band?

Yes - Perry has said he wouldn't have made the same decision today - but equally I'm not convinced that we can blame him for everything that went on in the band in '85 and '86.

And the same can be said for TBF but TBF was FAR worse than ROR; totally uninspired.

CH - if you feel that way about TBF then surely you ought to resent the whole band and not just Perry?

Schon, Cain and the rest of the guys can do thier own thing without the hassles of meeting Perry's 'Standards'.

Well, those "hassles" and "standards" helped to create the most inspiring music in Journey's career and took Journey to the top.

I've read a lot of posts - even from Schon fanatics - who complained that Schon's attitude to "Generations" was slap-dash...that he couldn't even be bothered to oversee the track-listing...that his mind was on SS...and so on. I guess this is what happens when Schon is free to "do his own thing".

I'd never question Schon's genius as a guitar player - but his leadership of the band has not been a success so far - and he has lacked - I think - a singer who can stand up to him and force him to raise his game.

[SF-Dano]

Really? I remember a scene in the BTM which recalled a meeting between Perry, Schon and Cain in early 1987 when Perry told them he was "toast" and was unable to continue.

If we follow the BTM timeline, he told them he was toast at the end of the first leg of the ROR tour. All that can be taken from that statement in BTM is that Perry did not want to continue with a second leg of the ROR tour. Not that he never wanted to do Journey again, or that it would take 10 years to recover from him being toast. If you recall in BTM, aftere Cain, Perry, and Schon all confirmed the meeting where Perry said he was "toast" and did not want to continue the tour, there was no communication till the Bill Graham tribute, and then no communication till Perry call Cain before TBF, because he had an "itch" to be in Journey again. Cain's quote was " I haven't heard from this guy in years".

Now my opinions are this, if Perry did not want to be in the band anymore then simply pick up the phone and let them know this at some point before 2years go by, let alone 10. Hell let them know at the Bill Graham Tribute, just say something like " Hey guys, its been years. I am here to do this in memory of Bill and thats it. I am done with Journey." No, it appears he had to leave that door ajar. And again after TBF, no communication. Perry was most definately allowed to take a reasonable amount of time to decide what he wanted to do about his hip. Say a year or so. I mean if the pain was so bad, I personally wouldn't wait the 2+years he apparently did. Again just my opinion. Interersting that he "decided to have the surgery" right after Neal and Jon decided to move on. What is so hard about keeping in touch and just saying, I am trying this or that. It is the lack of communication (IMO) that drove the final spike, and forced Cain and Schon to move on and finally close that door that Perry wanted to leave open.

Again, Steve Perry is an incredibly talented man with a spectacular voice, but he is a man that should definately be a solo artist. He doesn't seem to know what it takes to be a member of a band. Part of a team. Compromise, belief that the sum of the whole can produce better than the individual, a sense of camaraderie. From a fans standpoint looking from the outside, I haven't seen these qualities in Steve Perry.

[Red13JoePa]

Exactly Dano, Schon/Cain saw THE EXACT same thing as the ROR fadeaway beginning to take root again in 1997.

[Matthew]

If you recall in BTM, aftere Cain, Perry, and Schon all confirmed the meeting where Perry said he was "toast" and did not want to continue the tour, there was no communication till the Bill Graham tribute, and then no communication till Perry call Cain before TBF, because he had an "itch" to be in Journey again. Cain's quote was " I haven't heard from this guy in years".

Yes - you're absolutely right SF.

Now my opinions are this, if Perry did not want to be in the band anymore then simply pick up the phone and let them know this at some point before 2years go by, let alone 10. Hell let them know at the Bill Graham Tribute, just say something like " Hey guys, its been years. I am here to do this in memory of Bill and thats it. I am done with Journey." No, it appears he had to leave that door ajar.

It has to be said that he has played this game with his fans...right up to the present day.

It is the lack of communication (IMO) that drove the final spike,

Yes - I agree....

Again, Steve Perry is an incredibly talented man with a spectacular voice, but he is a man that should definately be a solo artist. He doesn't seem to know what it takes to be a member of a band. Part of a team. Compromise, belief that the sum of the whole can produce better than the individual, a sense of camaraderie. From a fans standpoint looking from the outside, I haven't seen these qualities in Steve Perry.

SF - now I have to strongly disagree with you. You talk as though Perry's time in Journey was unsuccesful and uncreative - that he was unable to function in a band environment. For all his troubles from 1987 onwards...it just can't be denied that he was an extraordinary asset to Journey between 1978-1986....or 1978-1983...if you are anti-ROR.

You haven't seen any evidence of Perry's abilities to work in team? What about the extraordinary song-writing chemistry between Perry, Cain and Schon?

Also - every successful enterprise needs a leader and a sense of heirachy. Some personalities are just more dominant than others. Perry's drive and leadership within the band helped Journey become world-beaters.

Unfortunately, his gifts were expressed in an intense eight year period...and to this day I can't explain what's been going on with the guy over the last twenty years. But it isn't fair or accurate to take two episodes from '87 and '98 and claim they are representative of his entire career with Journey.

[SF-Dano]

SF - now I have to strongly disagree with you. You talk as though Perry's time in Journey was unsuccesful and uncreative - that he was unable to function in a band environment. For all his troubles from 1987 onwards...it just can't be denied that he was an extraordinary asset to Journey between 1978-1986....or 1978-1983...if you are anti-ROR.

You haven't seen any evidence of Perry's abilities to work in team? What about the extraordinary song-writing chemistry between Perry, Cain and Schon?

Also - every successful enterprise needs a leader and a sense of heirachy. Some personalities are just more dominant than others. Perry's drive and leadership within the band helped Journey become world-beaters.

Unfortunately, his gifts were expressed in an intense eight year period...and to this day I can't explain what's been going on with the guy over the last twenty years. But it isn't fair or accurate to take two episodes from '87 and '98 and claim they are representative of his entire career with Journey.

I can agree that Perry was able to write some great material with the Cain/Schon. However taking just the lack of compromise issue that I mentioned, it eventually forced Rollie to leave the band, then the ousting of Valory and Smith, then Herbie Herbert. Perry may have worked himself into the leadership role in the creative department of the band, but HH was the true leader of Journey till sometime after ROR.

As far as camaraderie goes, by the end of Frontiers and maybe earlier that was gone. Cain from BTM " We were flying around without him. It was just wierd." Schon from BTM (paraphrasing) " We would stick around to meet the fans, and he (Perry) would be gone. The joke was Elvis has left the building". Even Perry's on statement about not prescribing to Herbie's family relationship or getting involved in each others lives. Well to me if your are friends there is always some sort of concern for your friends' well being and life. There has to be some sort of friendship or camaraderie for a band to have longevity. Look at the Beatles, when the friendship of John and Paul soured the end was near. The Stones broke up for a while when Mick and Keith were on the outs. Eddie Van Halen and DLR and then Hagar. It goes on an on. For a band to work for the long haul there has to be Chemistry and a sense of friendship. Journey definately had the chemistry and I think they even had the friendship for awhile with Perry. But it was obvious to me after a while, that the friendship lessened with every release/year that went buy. Hell Perry said it himself that he saw Journey as a business. Not a group of friends.

The hiatus period may not represent Perrys whole carreer, but it does have to be taken into account. When the hiatus time is longer than than the amount of time he was creatively a member of the band, it has to account for something. Whether it is just that Perry has been a total intravert (sp?) his whole life or that he really had little respect for the other band members, there is no excuse for not communicate with the other guys during that period of time. Even if it was as Perry said, just a business, than the others were his business partners and you don't just break down communication with your business partners either, let alone friends.

Sorry for the length again.

[Blueskies]

I think Perry take's a lead where he feel's it's necessary to try to do the best he can and bring out the best in those he work's with. Perry has more than enough ability to work as a team, also. When he was in Journey he worked as a team with Neil and Jon and it brought out the best in all of them. When he worked on FTLOSM he didn't do it by himself, he worked with the guy's he brought in to make up the band. Perry has been helping out friends on their projects...trying to do what he can so they can succeed. I don't think he even take's money for it. He's been supporting charitie's like Habitat For Humanity....which is all about teamwork! A very giving guy! I think he trie's to bring out the best and be supportive of whoever he has worked with. How is this not being a teamplayer?

[Deb]

As far as camaraderie goes, by the end of Frontiers and maybe earlier that was gone. Cain from BTM " We were flying around without him. It was just wierd." Schon from BTM (paraphrasing) " We would stick around to meet the fans, and he (Perry) would be gone. The joke was Elvis has left the building". Even Perry's on statement about not prescribing to Herbie's family relationship or getting involved in each others lives.

Maybe Perry was too wrapped up in his relationship (with Sherri) at the time.....happens to the best of you guys. I also don't think Perry liked to party as hearty as Neal and the boys after the shows. Neal could party his ass off/mingle with everybody and still play guitar the next day, not necessarily true in SP's case. Just ask Jeff, gotta take care of what ya got, can't buy new vocal chords. Sorry, but I for one am glad he did whatever he thought necessary to take care of that voice......cuz I've got 25 year old music that I still dig the shit out of to this day.

[Carlitto H@kk]

Carlitto H@kk wrote: His control over ROR was the reason Ross and Smitty were ousted and his control also led to the direction of that album.

I reckon you're under-estimating Schon and Cain's role in the group at that time. Yes, Perry was the dominant force - but Schon and Cain were hardly passive bystanders.
Also - Smith and Valory are routinely portrayed as victims. Isn't it true to say that the friction within the band at that time was partly their responsibility too?
Was Smith being too precious about his drumming? Was he - unlike Don Henley, Phil Collins, Neal Peart - failing to adapt to the use of drum technology in the md-80s? Was he frustrated with the limitations of being 'just' a rock drummer? And did his attitude make the recording sessions too slow and difficult?
And Ross? He was hardly a stable and fulfilled peson at that point in his life. Is it possible that he too was contributing to the terrible atmosphere within the band?
Yes - Perry has said he wouldn't have made the same decision today - but equally I'm not convinced that we can blame him for everything that went on in the band in '85 and '86. .

I think Schon and Cain went along with the ROR decsions because they weren't confident enuff at that time to consider a Perry-less Journey.
As for Smitty and Ross... total horseshit!
I hope Smitty was pissed that he was being asked to alter his style. You think Peart would just "shut-up-and-color" if Geddy asked him to play like an 80's drum loop??? Give me a break. Even in the 80s, Peart maintained his Rock/Jazz skills throughout; he just added more electronic gizmos and flair. I can't comment on Ross because i don't know the reasons he was asked to step down. If he had personal issues at the time that hindered his performance then that would be understandable.

And the same can be said for TBF but TBF was FAR worse than ROR; totally uninspired.

CH - if you feel that way about TBF then surely you ought to resent the whole band and not just Perry?

I do, in a way, but I also see that they were catering to Perry's tastes...
Perry mellowed out after Frontiers. FTLOSM was an attempt at some 'edge' and I thought it was a lot better than TBF but STILL an uninspired effort. TBF was a joke. Now THAT was a case of EVERYONE looking to make some bank.

Schon, Cain and the rest of the guys can do thier own thing without the hassles of meeting Perry's 'Standards'.

Well, those "hassles" and "standards" helped to create the most inspiring music in Journey's career and took Journey to the top.

You are right... 20+ years ago!
That 'magic' everyoe talks about between Perry Schon and Cain died out somewhere during the Frontiers tour. Too many Egos for one stage. And yes, that goes for Cain and Schon too. But Perry was already distancing himself from the guys; traveling seperately, leaving right after shows...
By the time ROR was recorded a "second time", Perry was in full control, brought in Huey's producer to help and gave us that pile called ROR.
Just My Opinions, Matty.
I LOVE Perry's voice on ROR, FTLOSM and TBF; he lost his highs but found great new techniques for his lower tones.
I HATE the direction he 'forced' the songwriting and music to go.

[yak]

LOL, but it would be my guess that statement was written by some nasty old fart who thinks every woman lusts after him personally.

LOL, don't you know "nasty old farts" can't think?

And I guess I would be a "certain age" and I can promise you I do not think anything in pants looks sexy.

Glad to hear it! That statement is ludicrous, and shows that the gal who wrote it obviously didn't see the recent pic of a frumpy Perry dressed in dowdy black clothes. So his face was "tanned," which means he was likely in Hawaii, rock climbing "again." Or she's so blinded by her devotion to him, that she can't see straight. Either way, it's a hoot!

LMAO, this is coming from somebody who's got a naked Nicole as his avatar. I just enjoy the finer things in life, I'd rather be lewd and lascivious than wound so tight I can't breathe. And I must not have reached that certain age yet because there's many a man in pants that doesn't look sexy. What I can't quite figure out is why you have such an issue with me or any other female fan finding Perry (or JSS or any other rockstar) sexy.

Wow, you have a real problem when it comes to attractive women, and the men who admire them for more than their looks, don't you? I have no issue with you and your gal pals finding Perry attractive. It speeds my day along when I read that stuff.

I don't know how JSS got into this discussion, unless I took you to task for making lewd comments about him. Why not take those kinds of comments to a private board?

By the way, it's also been written that when certain men get a certain age, they can't get it up anymore.....hmmmm....maybe there is some correlation there. Chill!

OK...you want to go there? The correlation is in your ass, since your statement could well apply to your one and only Perry. I've never given my age here, because it's none of your business. If any of the legitimate people here who I PM with occasionally want it, they'll get it. Suffice it to say I'm hardly whatever you want to call an old fart/man, and that if I want to get "it" up, I can do it any time I want it, wherever I want, and I haven't had a complaint yet.


Here's an idea......Why not have a go at the Loons private board, where discussing Steve Perry's penis in all its glory, and what to do with it, is the game of the day. Or start a Perry pecker thread of your own, instead of disrupting legitimate music discussions.

[Deb]

Wow, you have a real problem when it comes to attractive women, and the men who admire them for more than their looks, don't you? I have no issue with you and your gal pals finding Perry attractive. It speeds my day along when I read that stuff.

I don't know how JSS got into this discussion, unless I took you to task for making lewd comments about him. Why not take those kinds of comments to a private board?

Yak, I have no problem whatsoever when it comes to attractive women or the men that admire them.....you're the one with that problem. I happen to agree with Deano that Shania Twain is one of the most gorgeous women in the world. Admire away, go ahead, actually it's healthy. I don't have issues at all with men or women appreciating or admiring the opposite sex. You are the one that always seems to pop on and chastise any female on the board for any comment made appreciating how attractive/sexy Perry is. I brought up JSS, because there is alot of women on this board who find him attractive/sexy too and have commented on it. So relax!

OK...you want to go there? The correlation is in your ass, since your statement could well apply to your one and only Perry. I've never given my age here, because it's none of your business. If any of the legitimate people here who I PM with occasionally want it, they'll get it. Suffice it to say I'm hardly whatever you want to call an old fart/man, and that if I want to get "it" up, I can do it any time I want it, wherever I want, and I haven't had a complaint yet.

Wow, me thinks you protestith too much. LOL....good for you. Personally I could care less how old you are.......and you were the one who brought the "women of a certain age" issue up......just responding to your comment. "If" you want to get it up?........sorry dude.

Here's an idea......Why not have a go at the Loons private board, where discussing Steve Perry's penis in all its glory, and what to do with it, is the game of the day. Or start a Perry pecker thread of your own, instead of disrupting legitimate music discussions.

You are just as much disrupting this discussion as anybody. Who is talking about Perry's penis in all its glory? Ohhhhh Perry pecker thread.....great idea.....can I, can I! ROFLMAO! Thanks Yak, you have given me the best laugh I have had all day.

Yak, this is a mixed board, you accept it from the men.....you'll have to accept it from the women.

[boodles]

Let me say this about Steve Perry. The man is quite possible the best rock vocalist of all time. That said, my problems with Perry are the fact that in early 1987 he decided to walk away from the band without a word. According to all statements, articles, interviews, etc., this is a fact. He did not communicate his intentions to the rest of the band and essentially left them in limbo. After a few years Jon and Neal figured it and moved on. It wasn't until there was a planned reunion with Rollie and Chalfant on vocals, that Steve got the "itch" to be in Journey again, but again only on his terms. Now I do blame Neal and Jon for going this route for TBF, big big mistake in my opinon. Then the second communication break down by Perry towards the rest of the band.

Also, Perry, who said he "Never Felt like Part of the Band", was absolutely controlling everything. If he truelly felt that way, it was because he parted himself from the rest of the band, not the rest of the band pushing him out.

I do think think these are the main reasons alot of people have some "resentment" towards Perry. At least it is for me. And for I guy who " Never Felt like part of the Band" to come out and say "Don't Crack the Stone" was just way out there to me.

Drugs and booze made Perry "toast". You don't recover over night from that! In fact for most it will always be there. I think thats what is keeping Perry away.

[Blueskies]

Let me say this about Steve Perry. The man is quite possible the best rock vocalist of all time. That said, my problems with Perry are the fact that in early 1987 he decided to walk away from the band without a word. According to all statements, articles, interviews, etc., this is a fact. He did not communicate his intentions to the rest of the band and essentially left them in limbo. After a few years Jon and Neal figured it and moved on. It wasn't until there was a planned reunion with Rollie and Chalfant on vocals, that Steve got the "itch" to be in Journey again, but again only on his terms. Now I do blame Neal and Jon for going this route for TBF, big big mistake in my opinon. Then the second communication break down by Perry towards the rest of the band.

Also, Perry, who said he "Never Felt like Part of the Band", was absolutely controlling everything. If he truelly felt that way, it was because he parted himself from the rest of the band, not the rest of the band pushing him out.

I do think think these are the main reasons alot of people have some "resentment" towards Perry. At least it is for me. And for I guy who " Never Felt like part of the Band" to come out and say "Don't Crack the Stone" was just way out there to me.

Drugs and booze made Perry "toast". You don't recover over night from that! In fact for most it will always be there. I think thats what is keeping Perry away.

Where do you get your info? The Enquirer? Give me a break! You know nothing of his personal life! How can you say he was on drug's and booze without personal knowledge! Are you a friend of his? Dumb!

[Matthew]

However taking just the lack of compromise issue that I mentioned, it eventually forced Rollie to leave the band,

...and for Cain to come in for three awesome albums in a row.

Perry may have worked himself into the leadership role in the creative department of the band

Well, it's the creativity of the band we all love - and Journey are living off Perry's creative leadership to this day.

Even Perry's on statement about not prescribing to Herbie's family relationship or getting involved in each others lives.

Yes - he treated it like a profession. I don't know about you - but I don't want to hang out with my work colleagues 24 hour hours a day and seven days a week. Perry was't into some adolescent notion of being in a gang. He did his job - blew everyone away - and tried to retain a private life during the years of relentless touring.

But in the studio and on the stage Perry was utterly committed to the band.

Look at the Beatles, when the friendship of John and Paul soured the end was near.

Yes - and they didn't speak for ten years.

For a band to work for the long haul there has to be Chemistry and a sense of friendship.

Journey released nine successful albums with Perry - spanning a twenty year period. That's an incredible "long haul" achievement for any band.

The hiatus period may not represent Perrys whole carreer, but it does have to be taken into account. When the hiatus time is longer than than the amount of time he was creatively a member of the band, it has to account for something.

Yes - it meant that Journey - like 95% of all bands - had a moment in time...a period when they were on fire creatively (a period they are still milking to this day). Look at the Eagles. Their moment in time was really only five years between 1972 and 1977.

To expect Perry - or Journey - to sustain the 1978-1986 levels of creativity and commitment and success for a further ten or twenty years without a hiatus is unrealistic.

Yes - a tiny handful of bands have managed to sustain their output and tours for decades without a long hiatus - such as U2 - but they are freakishly unusual.

Also - it could be argued that the most damaging hiatus of all was between 1983 and 1986. This was a group decision - and one of the key reasons why the break went on for so long was that Schon decided to do HSAS and he set off a chain of negative consequences that delayed the new Journey album. Perry wasn't planning to do a a solo album until Schon started devoting himself to 'outside projects' after Frontiers, was he? But when Schon did...Perry thought...why can't I do that too?

So Perry wasn't the only band member who put his own interests above group unity at that time.

Whether it is just that Perry has been a total intravert (sp?) his whole life or that he really had little respect for the other band members, there is no excuse for not communicate with the other guys during that period of time. Even if it was as Perry said, just a business, than the others were his business partners and you don't just break down communication with your business partners either, let alone friends.

SF - you are being a bit judgmental, I reckon. Like most wildly talented rock stars, Perry is a troubled and conflicted personality. I'm not sure why you are so surprised and appalled about this.

[ohsherrie]

I wondered about this a lot, and I think I may even have mentioned it before, but I will again anyway. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but it seems that the people who have professed to be glad Perry is out of Journey and were happier with Augeri are the same ones that seem to be the angriest at Perry for not being in the band. They're the ones that seem compelled to find every kind of fault they can in him. It's almost as if they're trying to justify being happier without him. If they're truly happy with the band without him, are they trying to crucify him for making them happy?

[Matthew]

it seems that the people who have professed to be glad Perry is out of Journey and were happier with Augeri are the same ones that seem to be the angriest at Perry for not being in the band.

That is SO true, Sherrie.

[Matthew]

I think Schon and Cain went along with the ROR decsions because they weren't confident enuff at that time to consider a Perry-less Journey.

Maybe you ought to resent them for being so wet?

As for Smitty and Ross... total horseshit!
I hope Smitty was pissed that he was being asked to alter his style. You think Peart would just "shut-up-and-color" if Geddy asked him to play like an 80's drum loop??? Give me a break. Even in the 80s, Peart maintained his Rock/Jazz skills throughout; he just added more electronic gizmos and flair.

There's no doubt that Peart had total freedom of expression in Rush - with or without the gizmos - and Smith was being asked to restrict his style. You're absolutely right about that.

But what about Phil Collins? He was an incredible progressive rock drummer and had jazz leanings too with his Brand X side-project. He was also a successful pop/rock musician and in this area of his career he ensured that Genesis moved with the times and shook off their beardy past and got current in the early to mid 80s. The result? He simplified his style in Genesis and on his solo albums too. Don Henley is another example of a rock drummer who was smart enough to know that old school drumming would get him nowhere in that era.

Sure - mid-80s Genesis might not be to your taste - but the point is...Collins didn't give the other band members a load of prima donna crap about being an 'artist'. He got on with it and laid down some utterly simplistic, snare-heavy beats.

You criitcize Perry for not being a team player...for being arrogant...for saying 'my way or the highway'...yet when Smith behaves in exactly the same way and fails to set aside his ego and his 'art' for the sake of the group then you applaud him.

TBF was a joke. Now THAT was a case of EVERYONE looking to make some bank.

Journey decided to make some bank in 1978. They've been a commercial rock band ever since. That's why they've ALWAYS been uncool and why no-one other than the fans take them seriously.

That 'magic' everyoe talks about between Perry Schon and Cain died out somewhere during the Frontiers tour.

Oh really? Looking at the Hollywood Bowl set list this weekend I'd say the magic lives on in a big way.

Too many Egos for one stage.

That's what made them such world-beaters. Yes, they were a bunch of ruthless, egotistical, spectacularly talented and rich drama-queens ...and they had everything you could want from a proper stadium rock band.

Honestly...the journalists at Rolling Stone who dismissed Journey as "corporate rock" would have a wry smile reading some of these posts. Here we are - twenty years on - and the FANS are complaining that the band didn't behave like a smoothly run organisation, with well-balanced ad conscientous individuals working for the greater good...that their 'communication skills' weren't up to scratch...and so on.

The fact is Journey are a ROCK BAND...full of adolescent, attention-seeking nutcases who couldn't hold down a 9 to 5 job if they tried....OF COURSE they were dysfunctional.

[conversationpc]

But what about Phil Collins? He was an incredible progressive rock drummer and had jazz leanings too with his Brand X side-project. He was also a successful pop/rock musician and in this area of his career he ensured that Genesis moved with the times and shook off their beardy past and got current in the early to mid 80s. The result? He simplified his style in Genesis and on his solo albums too. Don Henley is another example of a rock drummer who was smart enough to know that old school drumming would get him nowhere in that era.

I agree with your analysis of Collins. Henley, though good enough for The Eagles, was never that great a drummer.

[Carlitto H@kk]

But what about Phil Collins? He was an incredible progressive rock drummer and had jazz leanings too with his Brand X side-project. He was also a successful pop/rock musician and in this area of his career he ensured that Genesis moved with the times and shook off their beardy past and got current in the early to mid 80s. The result? He simplified his style in Genesis and on his solo albums too. Don Henley is another example of a rock drummer who was smart enough to know that old school drumming would get him nowhere in that era.

Sure - mid-80s Genesis might not be to your taste - but the point is...Collins didn't give the other band members a load of prima donna crap about being an 'artist'. He got on with it and laid down some utterly simplistic, snare-heavy beats.

You criitcize Perry for not being a team player...for being arrogant...for saying 'my way or the highway'...yet when Smith behaves in exactly the same way and fails to set aside his ego and his 'art' for the sake of the group then you applaud him.

The difference between Smitty and Henley/Collins is that Smitty was Journey's Drummer; Henley and Collins were also thier bands' Lead Singers... Those 2 changing thier styles to fit the songs THEY were writing and singing is a bit different.

That 'magic' everyone talks about between Perry, Schon and Cain died out somewhere during the Frontiers tour

Oh really? Looking at the Hollywood Bowl set list this weekend I'd say the magic lives on in a big way..

Yes, the 'songs' from that era live on; I was talking about the 'writing' magic between the 3. That was lost along time ago. Thus my opinion of ROR and TBF. Perry's vocals=Awesome. Songwriting=Uninspired rubbish to me.

[Matthew]

The difference between Smitty and Henley/Collins is that Smitty was Journey's Drummer; Henley and Collins were also thier bands' Lead Singers... Those 2 changing thier styles to fit the songs THEY were writing and singing is a bit different.

But surely the fact that Smith didn't write the songs gave him even less authority to complain when the song-writing required a different approach? He was hired as the Journey drummer....so shut the fuck up and drum!

That was lost along time ago. Thus my opinion of ROR and TBF. Perry's vocals=Awesome. Songwriting=Uninspired rubbish to me.

As you know CH...I reckon the trio were on fire on ROR...but I'll agree that the magic had faded a bit on TBF. Having said that...TBF is still better than any other AOR album released since the late 1980s...

[Carlitto H@kk]

The difference between Smitty and Henley/Collins is that Smitty was Journey's Drummer; Henley and Collins were also thier bands' Lead Singers... Those 2 changing thier styles to fit the songs THEY were writing and singing is a bit different.

But surely the fact that Smith didn't write the songs gave him even less authority to complain when the song-writing requred a different approach? He was hired to be the Journey drummer...so shut the fuck up and drum!

That was lost along time ago. Thus my opinion of ROR and TBF. Perry's vocals=Awesome. Songwriting=Uninspired rubbish to me.

As you know CH...I reckon the trio were on fire on ROR...but I'll agree that the magic had faded a bit on TBF. Having said that...TBF is still a million times better than any other AOR album released since 1986.

Matty, I LOVE debating stuff with you because, no matter how right I think I am, you always come back with shit I could easily buy I just think as a pure Drummer, it would be hard for Smitty to change up his style so drastically and still be happy. As for TBF being better than any AOR album since '86???
The Storm's debut, in my opinion, blows ROR AND TBF away...

[Matthew]

Matty, I LOVE debating stuff with you because, no matter how right I think I am, you always come back with shit I could easily buy

It's great debating with you too, CH.

I just think as a pure Drummer, it would be hard for Smitty to change up his style so drastically and still be happy.

Yes - I agree - the mid-80s was a dark time for most drummers - but the drum parts on ROR would have been incredibly easy for him to play...and he could have expressed or challenged himself on tour...or in a side-project.

As for TBF being better than any AOR album since '86???
The Storm's debut, in my opinion, blows ROR AND TBF away...

I'm listening to a Kevin Chalfant compliation CD which Eric kindly sent me...and I'm really getting into it. I wouldn't say it's Journey standard - but I'm starting to understand why so many people on this site mention this guy so often.

By the way...how complex was Smith's drumming on The Storm album?

[Carlitto H@kk]

By the way...how complex was Smith's drumming on The Storm album?

Pretty much in the vien of ESCAPE and Frontiers