OT--great pic on drudgereport.com 11/1

[NealIsGod]

I hate war as much as anyone, but your convo reminded me of this sign:

[Matthew]

I am much better off finacially than I ever was with the other party in charge, and newsflash, the economy is in great shape, something that your yellow party refuses to acknowledge.

[sarcasm]
Yeah, but you know that the Bush tax cuts only benefitted the top 1% of wage earners and the tax burden fell to the poor and middle class.
[/sarcasm]

I'm firmly ensconched in the middle class and my tax rate definitely went down with the Bush tax cuts, not to mention a nice little tax rebate we got in the mail that year. Boy, that was really a bad thing.

Highest stock market ever (and not inflated like during the dot com surge) = bad
Lowest unemployment in several years = bad
Low inflation = bad
Record home ownership = bad
Personal income up = bad

Yada yada yada.

Yet government over-spending has wiped out the surplus and the US is now in massive debt.

The fiscal irresponsiblity of the Bush governement is one of the major reasons why so many Republicans are unhappy at the moment. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that the US in in "great shape" economically.

[conversationpc]

Yet government over-spending has wiped out the surplus and the US is now in massive debt.

The fiscal irresponsiblity of the Bush governement is one of the major reasons why so many Republicans are unhappy at the moment. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that the US in in "great shape" economically.

There was no surplus during the Clinton years. They conveniently leave out lots of expenditures that make the budget deficit appear to be much smaller than it actually is or "in balance" when in fact it isn't. The fact is, the U.S. debt continued to grow during the Clinton years and also up until now. Both Republicans and Democrats share the responsibility for this crap.

Anyway, compared to the economy at the end of the Clinton years, yes, the economy now is in great shape.

[Matthew]

Yet government over-spending has wiped out the surplus and the US is now in massive debt.

The fiscal irresponsiblity of the Bush governement is one of the major reasons why so many Republicans are unhappy at the moment. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that the US in in "great shape" economically.

There was no surplus during the Clinton years. They conveniently leave out lots of expenditures that make the budget deficit appear to be much smaller than it actually is or "in balance" when in fact it isn't. The fact is, the U.S. debt continued to grow during the Clinton years and also up until now. Both Republicans and Democrats share the responsibility for this crap.

Anyway, compared to the economy at the end of the Clinton years, yes, the economy now is in great shape.

I'll take your word for it, Dave. You're living in the States, after all. I've just read a few newspaper articles recently which reported that the Republicans were likely to suffer in the mid-terms due to Bush's poor management of the country's finances - and that the most damaging criticisms were coming from 'fiscal conservatives' in the Republican Party itself.

[conversationpc]

Yet government over-spending has wiped out the surplus and the US is now in massive debt.

The fiscal irresponsiblity of the Bush governement is one of the major reasons why so many Republicans are unhappy at the moment. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that the US in in "great shape" economically.

There was no surplus during the Clinton years. They conveniently leave out lots of expenditures that make the budget deficit appear to be much smaller than it actually is or "in balance" when in fact it isn't. The fact is, the U.S. debt continued to grow during the Clinton years and also up until now. Both Republicans and Democrats share the responsibility for this crap.

Anyway, compared to the economy at the end of the Clinton years, yes, the economy now is in great shape.

I'll take your word for it, Dave. You're living in the States, after all. I've just read a few newspaper articles recently which reported that the Republicans were likely to suffer in the mid-terms due to Bush's poor management of the country's finances - and that the most damaging criticisms were coming from 'fiscal conservatives' in the Republican Party itself.

No, Bush hasn't exactly been quite the fiscal conservative that many would like him to be and spending has gone way up under his watch. Despite that, the economy is on a roll due to his tax cuts, in my opinion. We would be in much better shape if the spending were under control.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Bullshit TNC...thats spin. He was joking, but he should know better, especially during elections season.

Kerry is being withheld the benefit of the doubt owing to his comments in the past, that's ok, I understand that.
Nevertheless, he was in-process of making fun of the president, not the troops.
I know cuz I watched the entire damned thing.

Like I said, find urself a copy or a transcript of his speech, not a 2-second news clip uprooted and devoid of all encompassing meaning.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Kerry can try to spin this all he wants, but his meaning was clear.

No, his meaning was not clear - how on earth could it be when the "liberal media" refuses to play more than one uncontextualized quote?

Ur meaning is bright as the morning sun though: Another frothing-at-the-mouth Southern fried bigot still smarting from Johnson granting black people civil rights.

Kerry is an elitist snob who has been anti military since he left Vietnam with his video camera.

I guess the Iraq-based US soldiers posting material in unprecedented droves on YouTube or composing their own documentaries are also turncoats, u vile scuzz.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Is this photo really intended to Kerry? Well if Journey was as big as they were in their heyday, it very well could have been meant for them. Thanks to Cain/Schon's ignorant, offensive lyrics in "Out of Harm's Way". They obviously feel the same way about our troops.

Firstly, there is a quote out there where one of them (Ross? Jon?) stated that the band has mixed emotions on the war, so don't assume they are all San Francisco liberals.

Secondly, I had the good fortune of talking to Jon (Cain, not Kerry) about this. I wanted to know if it was difficult for him to remain absolutely apolitical when writing "Out of Harm's Way" especially during such a politically polarized a time. He mentioned that regardless if u are for the war or against it, or harbor issues with how we got there, we can all agree on one thing; that we want the troops out of harms way and that's what he focused on. Much in how he brought an emphasis on "small town girls" and "jesse riding slow" with his inaugural JRNY album, Jonathan still is all about writing for the overlooked little people in life that see to it that the world keeps turning.

I really doubt that the band was going for a political statement. Though one could make that case about "No End in Sight"off Toto's latest.

[conversationpc]

Kerry can try to spin this all he wants, but his meaning was clear.

No, his meaning was not clear - how on earth could it be when the "liberal media" refuses to play more than one uncontextualized quote?

Ur meaning is bright as the morning sun though: Another frothing-at-the-mouth Southern fried bigot still smarting from Johnson granting black people civil rights.

Kerry is an elitist snob who has been anti military since he left Vietnam with his video camera.

I guess the Iraq-based US soldiers posting material in unprecedented droves on YouTube or composing their own documentaries are also turncoats, u vile scuzz.

Barb is from California, far from being "southern fried".

As far as Kerry with his video camera, that was at a time that basically only journalists had cameras with them on the battlefield. It was obvious that Kerry had political intentions long before he went to Vietnam that's the only reason he did so, in my opinion. Just buffing up his resume.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Barb is from California, far from being "southern fried".

It's about mentality, not geography.

As far as Kerry with his video camera, that was at a time that basically only journalists had cameras with them on the battlefield. It was obvious that Kerry had political intentions long before he went to Vietnam that's the only reason he did so, in my opinion. Just buffing up his resume.

Did he serve or didn't he?
The septic tank depths plunged by u and ur ilk in this thread have affirmed to me what I had feared for some time now: this country is fucked.
No two ways about it.

[ohsherrie]

Good fight TNC. You're dead on right in everything you've said. Of course Kerry wasn't intending to belittle our troops. It's easy to see just from reading this thread how hopeless the political situation is in this country.

Bush has spent the last six years with one foot in his mouth and one hand in the pockets of the working class people of this country while he spends their money waging a personal war that he LIED to get us into. Yet John Kerry flubs a line in a dig at Bush's intelligence(or lack thereof)and he's crucified for it. The Republicans have nothing to run on at this point so they have to push the emotional buttons of the people who they're economically raping. They get away with it by keeping them so stirred up with religious and patriotic hyperbole that they don't even care what he's really doing.

I don't know what some people see as an indicator of our economy, but if it's the stock market you're looking in the wrong place. The money that those corporations are making isn't helping the working class of this country because all of the workers that they're paying are in the Middle East, Asia and Central America. The tax cuts( ) that Bush is trying to make permanent are designed to keep it that way too. As long as his wealthy special interest backers get richer and the rest of his base stays churned up in the religious/patriotic spin he can just keep chewing on that shoe.

[Eric]

1) A BUDGET surplus simply means the taxpayers have been too heavily burdened.

2) The National Debt (different from the Budget) was large 20 years ago and its large now. It includes debt we owe each other....and does not include all of the debt we've forgiven.

3) The economy is strong.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Oh Sherrie is spot on.

Must true archetypal rock-ribbed Conservatives (Dick Army, Andrew Sullivan, Joe Scarborough, Bob Novak, Tucker Carlson et al) have disavowed this President and left him flailing in the apocalyptic hellhole of his own design.

The people defending him don't even know what they are supporting anymore.

[ohsherrie]

The people defending him don't even know what they are supporting anymore.

Exactly! They're supporting nothing but false idealism. Bush doesn't even really stand for the ideals they're supporting him for. He stands for himself and the financial goals of the people who bought the White House for him. THAT'S ALL!

[conversationpc]

I don't know what some people see as an indicator of our economy, but if it's the stock market you're looking in the wrong place. The money that those corporations are making isn't helping the working class of this country because all of the workers that they're paying are in the Middle East, Asia and Central America. The tax cuts( ) that Bush is trying to make permanent are designed to keep it that way too. As long as his wealthy special interest backers get richer and the rest of his base stays churned up in the religious/patriotic spin he can just keep chewing on that shoe.

If you think the economy isn't in good shape, even compared to the latter end of the Clinton years, you are simply blind, stupid, or both.

[ohsherrie]

If you think the economy isn't in good shape, even compared to the latter end of the Clinton years, you are simply blind, stupid, or both.

None of the above. I just get my info from sources other than the republican spin doctors and Fox News. Oh, sorry I guess they're really one and the same.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Let's give a small example. A former neighbor of mine several years back ran for and was elected mayor of our small town, he had ideas on becoming governor of our state eventually, and frankly at the time I thought he could do it. I knew his family very well, still do. Ok, so maybe I didn't know HIM as well as I thought I did. He got stupid and started messing around with another woman, he had a beautiful and loyal (too loyal?) wife at home along with 6 kids. OOOPS! So much for the political career. So much for any respect your former friends had for you...

Did pumping this harlot after-hours have any effect on policy?
If not, who gives a tinkers damn?

[ohsherrie]

Great line just now on The View. They're talking about this topic and Joy Behar said "Kerry botched a line, Bush botched a war". Sounds a lot like the line from somebody a while back "Clinton F**ked a woman, Bush f**ked the country". I saw a bumped sticker the other day saying "Bush lied and people died".

[conversationpc]

If you think the economy isn't in good shape, even compared to the latter end of the Clinton years, you are simply blind, stupid, or both.

None of the above. I just get my info from sources other than the republican spin doctors and Fox News. Oh, sorry I guess they're really one and the same.

And CNN, MSNBC, etc., are spin doctors for the left, so there you go. It happens on both sides.

Anyway...Sorry, the economy is in great shape using the same sources that the Democrats used to say the economy was in good shape while Clinton was in office. They are all the same indicators. Clinton gets credit for the economy while he was President. Bush should get credit for it while he is in office. If you disagree with that, you are nothing more than a partisan hack.

[conversationpc]

Great line just now on The View. They're talking about this topic and Joy Behar said "Kerry botched a line, Bush botched a war". Sounds a lot like the line from somebody a while back "Clinton F**ked a woman, Bush f**ked the country". I saw a bumped sticker the other day saying "Bush lied and people died".

This kind of rhetoric doesn't do either side any good. Clinton is also responsible for passing on the North Korea debacle to the Bush Administration. If his administration hadn't pussy-footed around with Kim Jong "Mentally" Il, this problem would be far easier to solve. Instead, Clinton allowed Madelaine Albright to appease that tyrant and the whole time they were building up their nuclear program behind the scenes.

Both administrations have much to be blamed for but it appears you only want to use the liberal-speak talking points to say "Bush Lied, people died", blah blah blah.

[Eric]

get my info from sources other than the republican spin doctors and Fox News. Oh, sorry I guess they're really one and the same.

I'll need an example

[ohsherrie]

get my info from sources other than the republican spin doctors and Fox News. Oh, sorry I guess they're really one and the same.

I'll need an example

I don't have any specific sources or quotes to post Eric. I just listen and watch and see the reality of the way life is for most of the people in this country. The companies that a closing operations in this country and the thousands upon thousands of people who are having to decide whether to buy their medicine, food or fuel. The people who have no medical coverage because they lost their group coverage and can't earn enough money in all the "small businesses" to get private coverage. I look at the way the cost of these necessities keep rising for these people whose incomes are declining while the CEOs and CFOs and so forth are making millions in profits from them. The young people who can't afford to go to college because of the rising cost of tuition and the decline of personal income so they have no chance of one day getting into the higher earning bracket. All of those indicators that most people use to judge the state of our economy don't show the reality of the financial status of the majority of this country.


That's not a liberal speaking point Conversationpc. That's reality. Those blurbs that I posted aren't coming from the Dem candidates. It's the Reps that use soundbites and catch phrases to push the hot buttons of their constituency and keep them blindly following. I was just giving an example of some that could be used if the Dems wanted to play it the way the Reps do.

[lights1961]

get my info from sources other than the republican spin doctors and Fox News. Oh, sorry I guess they're really one and the same.

I'll need an example

I don't have any specific sources or quotes to post Eric. I just listen and watch and see the reality of the way life is for most of the people in this country. The companies that a closing operations in this country and the thousands upon thousands of people who are having to decide whether to buy their medicine, food or fuel. The people who have no medical coverage because they lost their group coverage and can't earn enough money in all the "small businesses" to get private coverage. I look at the way the cost of these necessities keep rising for these people whose incomes are declining while the CEOs and CFOs and so forth are making millions in profits from them. The young people who can't afford to go to college because of the rising cost of tuition and the decline of personal income so they have no chance of one day getting into the higher earning bracket. All of those indicators that most people use to judge the state of our economy don't show the reality of the financial status of the majority of this country.


That's not a liberal speaking point Conversationpc. That's reality. Those blurbs that I posted aren't coming from the Dem candidates. It's the Reps that use soundbites and catch phrases to push the hot buttons of their constituency and keep them blindly following. I was just giving an example of some that could be used if the Dems wanted to play it the way the Reps do.

so whats cnn/cbs/nbc/msnbc/cnnheadline news/abc/npr/bbc/PBS...they all use democrat talking points.. just watch face the nation/meet the press or Sunday morning...ALL THESE OUTLETS are liberal slanting and have been for years... Oh I missed NYT, LAT, DM REGISTER and most other newspapers....

FOX NEWS is the only affillate of the conservative party----and thats who you harp on--way too funny---for those who hate FOX NEWS---you have 700 other news outlets to turn too... CHANGE THE CHANNEL....

Rick

[conversationpc]

That's not a liberal speaking point Conversationpc. That's reality. Those blurbs that I posted aren't coming from the Dem candidates. It's the Reps that use soundbites and catch phrases to push the hot buttons of their constituency and keep them blindly following. I was just giving an example of some that could be used if the Dems wanted to play it the way the Reps do.

I'm not saying the Republicans don't do that. They do. However, the Democrats do it just as much, if not more so. You simply cannot be intellectually honest and not admit that.

I wish I could register as an Independent here in Indiana. I've actually thought about registering as a Libertarian but I can't quite agree with much of their platform, either.

[ohsherrie]

That's not a liberal speaking point Conversationpc. That's reality. Those blurbs that I posted aren't coming from the Dem candidates. It's the Reps that use soundbites and catch phrases to push the hot buttons of their constituency and keep them blindly following. I was just giving an example of some that could be used if the Dems wanted to play it the way the Reps do.

I'm not saying the Republicans don't do that. They do. However, the Democrats do it just as much, if not more so. You simply cannot be intellectually honest and not admit that.

I wish I could register as an Independent here in Indiana. I've actually thought about registering as a Libertarian but I can't quite agree with much of their platform, either.

Politics are synonymous with maniputlation. They ALL try to manipulate us with their rhetoric. However, I honestly haven't heard any Democratic candidate or any representative of that party using hot button issues like the current administration does. They use the war on terror to scare people into "staying the course". They use gay marriage and abortion rights to rally the evangelicals. And all the while the quality of day to day life for the majority of the people in this country is declining.

The Republicans spent 8 years trying to find something wrong with the way Clinton was getting the job done and they couldn't. So they went after him for previous financial dealings, spent millions of tax dollars digging and found nothing. Then they went after his morals and finally found something they could get their hooks in, but it had nothing at all to do with the way he was running the country. They used the "morality" hot button to bring him, and therefore the Democratic party down so they could have a chance at getting their man in there in the next election. Then they still had to manipulate the vote counts to do it.

They've done nothing but lie to this country since they got in there about things that actually effect the quality of our lives and I haven't seen the Democrats or the press going after them with a vengeance the way they did Clinton.

The war on terror hasn't made us safer. There's more terrorism in Iraq now than there was before he went there, the Taliban is retaking Afghanistan, and Bin Laden is still around. What has improved? Gay rights have nothing to do with the actual lives of anyone but them. What they do with their lives has nothing to do with the way our families are fed, sheltered, educated and the medical care they have available to them. There is nothing in our lives that is better because of anything that Bush has done. It's worse, much worse because our young people are dying in an unnecessary war, and talking points and sound bites aren't going to change that.

[conversationpc]

However, I honestly haven't heard any Democratic candidate or any representative of that party using hot button issues like the current administration does.

You either have your head stuck in the sand or are unwilling to listen to what the socialist morons in the Democratic party are saying (and the fakes in the Republican party are just as bad...). Whatever hot button issue the administration uses in this way is countered by what the libs are doing for their own gain. It's a give-and-take thing with both sides for the most part. There are a few on either side who don't participate but I'm afraid they are getting fewer and farther between.

They've done nothing but lie to this country since they got in there about things that actually effect the quality of our lives and I haven't seen the Democrats or the press going after them with a vengeance the way they did Clinton.

Do you never watch CNN, MSNBC, and the like or read papers like the New York Times, LA Times, etc? The popular media is replete with examples of this. I can admit that the attacks on Clinton were over-the-top but they are almost dwarfed by comparison to what is going on now.

You've got numbskulls like Ted Kennedy saying the war was concocted only for political gain. Dennis Kucinich claims Bush purposely targeted innocent civilians. You don't see the media roundly criticizing these guys like they do President Bush on a regular basis. Bush deserves to be criticized when he does something stupid but you're being disingenuous when you say you don't see the press going after Bush like they did after Clinton.

The war on terror hasn't made us safer. There's more terrorism in Iraq now than there was before he went there, the Taliban is retaking Afghanistan, and Bin Laden is still around. What has improved?

It hasn't made us safer? Are you nuts? Are you not reading the headlines every time a terrorist is captured, killed, or thwarted in their attempts to do something here? By all accounts, the capabilities of Al Qaeda have been drastically reduced worldwide since the start of the war in Afghanistan. I'm not claiming that there aren't still problems but to say that we're not safer than we were five years ago is simply ridiculous.

I have many complaints about how the war has been prosecuted. We went into Iraq with far fewer troups than we needed to get the job done adequately. We should've actually used the "shock & awe" tactic like was being talked about but never done. Instead Bush turns his head and allows Rumsfeld to mishandle the war effort. I'm now of the opinion that Rumsfeld needs to be replaced. He's simply a yes man for the Bush administration right now.

[lights1961]

I'm curious--what do you think will happen when/if the draft is reinstated? Who do you think will get drafted? And, by that I mean, do you think kids in college or college graduates already in the workforce will be drafted first? I hate this war, and I have a feeling it is going to drag on for a while... How long can these guys that are being rotated in and out of Afghanistan and Iraq take it? It makes me feel sick with worry for our young guys...

I think we should all do a 2-4 year stint anything military, whether it the amry, air force, coast guard, marine, navy... right out of high school... If I had to do it over back in 1980----it probably would have made me a better man---Most at 18-20 years old need the discipline at that age to get motivated for life--- MHO> NO exceptions, unless physically disabled.

Rick

[conversationpc]

I think we should all do a 2-4 year stint anything military, whether it the amry, air force, coast guard, marine, navy... right out of high school... If I had to do it over back in 1980----it probably would have made me a better man---Most at 18-20 years old need the discipline at that age to get motivated for life--- MHO> NO exceptions, unless physically disabled.

It wouldn't work. The only time this works is in war time when the draft is actually necessary to build up our military force. Otherwise, all it does is put people in the military that can't or won't do the job effectively and pull down the morale of the military in general. That's not to mention the loss of essential freedoms that we need to stay a free people.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And CNN, MSNBC, etc., are spin doctors for the left, so there you go. It happens on both sides.

Watching cable news is practically my job.
CNN's coverage of "broken government specials" coinciding with an election is def. fishy, but by and large, cable news channels go for what's sensational, NOT what's liberal.
In fact, most of the cable channels are jam-packed with Conservatives.

Aside from Keith Olberman, name one cable news journalist who is openly liberal?

[The_Noble_Cause]

.....and the whole time they were building up their nuclear program behind the scenes.

By all accounts Nuke-building froze under Clinton, but even if this were true, Bush's North Korea foreign policy has been an unmitigated disaster.

Both administrations have much to be blamed for but it appears you only want to use the liberal-speak talking points to say "Bush Lied, people died", blah blah blah.

If the shoe fits.......