Only Two

[BlackWall]

I was listening to some Styx tonight and the thought occured to me: for as successful of an album as "The Grand Illusion" was, why only two singles in "Come Sail Away" and "Fooling Yourself"? Did they not have enough faith in the other songs, as far as commercial ability? Did they want to hold out because "Pieces Of Eight" was right on the heels?

Once they finally had another big hit in "Come Sail Away", you'd think they would have wanted a Dennis lead track, such as the title track to follow that success up..

Any thoughts?

[yogi]

At the time I dont think that their management wanted them to be a singles(AM music) type of band. That album was soooo solid from the first song to the last song. I really believe that they didnt want their singles to overshadow their entire album.

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

It was different back then. Tommy made a live and die by the hit single statement in the Behind The Music episode. In a way that was a correct statement for the time.

Pink Floyd's The Wall was huge back then also. You heard 5 or six songs from it all the time on KQRS. Yet only The title track seemed to find its way onto AM radio and other lesser hip FM stations back then.

I think their (Styx's) management made the correct call as to single releases pertaining to The Grand Illusion. Shit, it sat in the top 100 forever back then.

As for another Styx album ( Paradise Theatre) the # 3 release off of it should of been Snowblind. Had they choose it instead of Nothing Ever Goes As Planned I bet that album would have been by faaaarrrrr their biggest.

That sounds like a contradiction from what I stated earlier, but the industry changed dramatically from the time The Grand Illusion was released until Paradise Theatre opened.

[bugsymalone]

I think Cornerstone was the first album that pointedly had top 40 friendly singles on it. Progressive rock was fading and groups who were staying viable were the ones that found radio-friendly singles to release.

I remember the station in Houston that used to play entire albums and hearing The Grand Illusion, start to finish, on it. I always enjoyed that so much. Back then, radio stations had the creative freedom to do this with these types of recordings.

I do remember one interview with Dennis, it may have been on BTM, where he said Kilroy was also an attempt to get some Styx videos out there on the fledgling MTV.

What I find interesting is the videos Dennis did for his solo albums were way more interesting, and technically first class treatments, than anything from KWH. The video for "Call Me" is a really well-done visually creative interpretation of that song. As good as any video ever made in my book. Ditto "Boomchild."

OK, I got kinda off topic but this one seems to have turned into a free-ranging discussion, so, therefore, my .02.

Bugsy

[Rockwriter]

At the time I dont think that their management wanted them to be a singles(AM music) type of band. That album was soooo solid from the first song to the last song. I really believe that they didnt want their singles to overshadow their entire album.

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

It was different back then. Tommy made a live and die by the hit single statement in the Behind The Music episode. In a way that was a correct statement for the time.

Pink Floyd's The Wall was huge back then also. You heard 5 or six songs from it all the time on KQRS. Yet only The title track seemed to find its way onto AM radio and other lesser hip FM stations back then.

I think their (Styx's) management made the correct call as to single releases pertaining to The Grand Illusion. Shit, it sat in the top 100 forever back then.

As for another Styx album ( Paradise Theatre) the # 3 release off of it should of been Snowblind. Had they choose it instead of Nothing Ever Goes As Planned I bet that album would have been by faaaarrrrr their biggest.

That sounds like a contradiction from what I stated earlier, but the industry changed dramatically from the time The Grand Illusion was released until Paradise Theatre opened.

There is a pretty lengthy discussion in my book about how they used the success of CSA at radio as a really crucial ingredient to building GI into the monster breakthrough that it was. The reality is that Styx was ALWAYS a singles band, though some of the members choose to remember it differently now. But look at it this way . . . when did the band finally come to national attention after years of work and four albums? When "Lady" became a hit single. When did Styx take the next step to become a headlining superstar act? When CSA became the career single for the band. When did the band achieve its highest chart position and become the most successful touring act in the country as well as win the People's Choice Award, thereby garnering exposure far outside the narrow confines of rock radio? When "Babe" went to #1. It was also the double-barreled blast of "Best Of Times" with "Too Much Time" that propelled PT to be the band's only #1 album, because it was really the first time the band had had two successful singles out in such different styles that properly exploited the full fan base demographic. Back then record companies rarely went deeper than two singles from a record, they put the entire promo budget on a couple of focus tracks and radio would play a song for a lot longer life span back then, so you could make two singles into a whole year back then.

You also have to remember that even though Dennis', and to a certain extent Tommy's songs are the ones that charted the highest in the Top 40 format, Styx was a band that was one of the first real multi-format successes. Songs like "Miss America", "Snowblind", "The Grand Illusion", and even "Renegade" and "Blue Collar Man" got airplay in the other formats like rock radio, and that only made the band's demographic base that much wider. That was part of what made Styx so successful, is that their music had something for everybody in every format. That was one of the major strengths of the band and it was absolutely deliberate that the marketing exploited that strength.

The thing about live by the single, die by the single . . . that's absolute nonsense. If that's so, then why did they employ Jim Cahill full-time for no other purpose than to go out and do whatever it took, including payola, to get singles played? Hearing a single is the only way most people know an album exists. Why would you NOT want that? That's idiotic, and it's something they have only started saying since firing Dennis. Styx was lucky enough to be both a singles band AND an album band, and that was one of the great strengths of the band. Frankly, it's part of what is missing now, and how's that working out for them in terms of sales? Hmmmm . . .

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[rajah2165]

At the time I dont think that their management wanted them to be a singles(AM music) type of band. That album was soooo solid from the first song to the last song. I really believe that they didnt want their singles to overshadow their entire album.

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

It was different back then. Tommy made a live and die by the hit single statement in the Behind The Music episode. In a way that was a correct statement for the time.

Pink Floyd's The Wall was huge back then also. You heard 5 or six songs from it all the time on KQRS. Yet only The title track seemed to find its way onto AM radio and other lesser hip FM stations back then.

I think their (Styx's) management made the correct call as to single releases pertaining to The Grand Illusion. Shit, it sat in the top 100 forever back then.

As for another Styx album ( Paradise Theatre) the # 3 release off of it should of been Snowblind. Had they choose it instead of Nothing Ever Goes As Planned I bet that album would have been by faaaarrrrr their biggest.

That sounds like a contradiction from what I stated earlier, but the industry changed dramatically from the time The Grand Illusion was released until Paradise Theatre opened.

Yogi, the Snowblind comment was one of your joke's right? Not real radio friendly for pop stations. Actually my opinion is that Rockin The Paradise should have been released as the third pop single. It was a monster hit on FM (#6 rock track) and had a catchy enough tune that it could have been a hit on pop stations too IMO (not top 10 material, but probably top 40 - a better selection than NEGAP). But the problem with Paradise Theatre (vs. Escape, Hi Infidelity or "4" - which all were bigger albums and had more singles than Paradise) was that there were really a lack of hit singles on that album. Journey had 3 ballads as singles off Escape and REO had 2 ballads of Hi Infidelity. An ideal third single off Paradise (so don't read any further, Dennis haters) would have been another ballad. Problem was - there was only one ballad on Paradise. Only two big hits on the record hurt Styx when compared to the 7-9 million in sales that those other 3 big 1981 albums sold with their 4-5 hit singles each.

[rajah2165]

I think Cornerstone was the first album that pointedly had top 40 friendly singles on it. Progressive rock was fading and groups who were staying viable were the ones that found radio-friendly singles to release.

I remember the station in Houston that used to play entire albums and hearing The Grand Illusion, start to finish, on it. I always enjoyed that so much. Back then, radio stations had the creative freedom to do this with these types of recordings.

I do remember one interview with Dennis, it may have been on BTM, where he said Kilroy was also an attempt to get some Styx videos out there on the fledgling MTV.

What I find interesting is the videos Dennis did for his solo albums were way more interesting, and technically first class treatments, than anything from KWH. The video for "Call Me" is a really well-done visually creative interpretation of that song. As good as any video ever made in my book. Ditto "Boomchild."

OK, I got kinda off topic but this one seems to have turned into a free-ranging discussion, so, therefore, my .02.

Bugsy

Video not withstanding (as I agree - it was a very artistic video), "Call Me" was the wrong song to release as a single off BTTW. It was just too dog-gone slow and boring for top 40. I would have gone with This is The Time as the first release.

[rajah2165]

At the time I dont think that their management wanted them to be a singles(AM music) type of band. That album was soooo solid from the first song to the last song. I really believe that they didnt want their singles to overshadow their entire album.

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

It was different back then. Tommy made a live and die by the hit single statement in the Behind The Music episode. In a way that was a correct statement for the time.

Pink Floyd's The Wall was huge back then also. You heard 5 or six songs from it all the time on KQRS. Yet only The title track seemed to find its way onto AM radio and other lesser hip FM stations back then.

I think their (Styx's) management made the correct call as to single releases pertaining to The Grand Illusion. Shit, it sat in the top 100 forever back then.

As for another Styx album ( Paradise Theatre) the # 3 release off of it should of been Snowblind. Had they choose it instead of Nothing Ever Goes As Planned I bet that album would have been by faaaarrrrr their biggest.

That sounds like a contradiction from what I stated earlier, but the industry changed dramatically from the time The Grand Illusion was released until Paradise Theatre opened.

There is a pretty lengthy discussion in my book about how they used the success of CSA at radio as a really crucial ingredient to building GI into the monster breakthrough that it was. The reality is that Styx was ALWAYS a singles band, though some of the members choose to remember it differently now. But look at it this way . . . when did the band finally come to national attention after years of work and four albums? When "Lady" became a hit single. When did Styx take the next step to become a headlining superstar act? When CSA became the career single for the band. When did the band achieve its highest chart position and become the most successful touring act in the country as well as win the People's Choice Award, thereby garnering exposure far outside the narrow confines of rock radio? When "Babe" went to #1. It was also the double-barreled blast of "Best Of Times" with "Too Much Time" that propelled PT to be the band's only #1 album, because it was really the first time the band had had two successful singles out in such different styles that properly exploited the full fan base demographic. Back then record companies rarely went deeper than two singles from a record, they put the entire promo budget on a couple of focus tracks and radio would play a song for a lot longer life span back then, so you could make two singles into a whole year back then.

You also have to remember that even though Dennis', and to a certain extent Tommy's songs are the ones that charted the highest in the Top 40 format, Styx was a band that was one of the first real multi-format successes. Songs like "Miss America", "Snowblind", "The Grand Illusion", and even "Renegade" and "Blue Collar Man" got airplay in the other formats like rock radio, and that only made the band's demographic base that much wider. That was part of what made Styx so successful, is that their music had something for everybody in every format. That was one of the major strengths of the band and it was absolutely deliberate that the marketing exploited that strength.

The thing about live by the single, die by the single . . . that's absolute nonsense. If that's so, then why did they employ Jim Cahill full-time for no other purpose than to go out and do whatever it took, including payola, to get singles played? Hearing a single is the only way most people know an album exists. Why would you NOT want that? That's idiotic, and it's something they have only started saying since firing Dennis. Styx was lucky enough to be both a singles band AND an album band, and that was one of the great strengths of the band. Frankly, it's part of what is missing now, and how's that working out for them in terms of sales? Hmmmm . . .

I hope all is well.


Sterling

Outstanding point!

You are correct - Styx is a singles band - they have lived by the single from the get go and it is a fact - singles sell albums. Singles are what peoploe want to hear. And singles are what should be played in concerts. Which is all the more concerning that if I am a casual Styx fan, and I know them by their top 10 singles, I only get to hear 3 of the 8 if I go see them in concert. At least with DDY, you get to hear 7 out of the 8, plus another top 10 in Desert Moon.

As far as singles and album sales, I still contend that Edge would have been a much bigger album had SMTW been released as the first single - After Love Is Ritual earned the award for biggest flop of Styx's career, any momentum was shot - A&M had given up and it took a fluke and Iraq War I to propel SMTW as the huge smash it was.

[rajah2165]

At the time I dont think that their management wanted them to be a singles(AM music) type of band. That album was soooo solid from the first song to the last song. I really believe that they didnt want their singles to overshadow their entire album.

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

It was different back then. Tommy made a live and die by the hit single statement in the Behind The Music episode. In a way that was a correct statement for the time.

Pink Floyd's The Wall was huge back then also. You heard 5 or six songs from it all the time on KQRS. Yet only The title track seemed to find its way onto AM radio and other lesser hip FM stations back then.

I think their (Styx's) management made the correct call as to single releases pertaining to The Grand Illusion. Shit, it sat in the top 100 forever back then.

As for another Styx album ( Paradise Theatre) the # 3 release off of it should of been Snowblind. Had they choose it instead of Nothing Ever Goes As Planned I bet that album would have been by faaaarrrrr their biggest.

That sounds like a contradiction from what I stated earlier, but the industry changed dramatically from the time The Grand Illusion was released until Paradise Theatre opened.

There is a pretty lengthy discussion in my book about how they used the success of CSA at radio as a really crucial ingredient to building GI into the monster breakthrough that it was. The reality is that Styx was ALWAYS a singles band, though some of the members choose to remember it differently now. But look at it this way . . . when did the band finally come to national attention after years of work and four albums? When "Lady" became a hit single. When did Styx take the next step to become a headlining superstar act? When CSA became the career single for the band. When did the band achieve its highest chart position and become the most successful touring act in the country as well as win the People's Choice Award, thereby garnering exposure far outside the narrow confines of rock radio? When "Babe" went to #1. It was also the double-barreled blast of "Best Of Times" with "Too Much Time" that propelled PT to be the band's only #1 album, because it was really the first time the band had had two successful singles out in such different styles that properly exploited the full fan base demographic. Back then record companies rarely went deeper than two singles from a record, they put the entire promo budget on a couple of focus tracks and radio would play a song for a lot longer life span back then, so you could make two singles into a whole year back then.

You also have to remember that even though Dennis', and to a certain extent Tommy's songs are the ones that charted the highest in the Top 40 format, Styx was a band that was one of the first real multi-format successes. Songs like "Miss America", "Snowblind", "The Grand Illusion", and even "Renegade" and "Blue Collar Man" got airplay in the other formats like rock radio, and that only made the band's demographic base that much wider. That was part of what made Styx so successful, is that their music had something for everybody in every format. That was one of the major strengths of the band and it was absolutely deliberate that the marketing exploited that strength.

The thing about live by the single, die by the single . . . that's absolute nonsense. If that's so, then why did they employ Jim Cahill full-time for no other purpose than to go out and do whatever it took, including payola, to get singles played? Hearing a single is the only way most people know an album exists. Why would you NOT want that? That's idiotic, and it's something they have only started saying since firing Dennis. Styx was lucky enough to be both a singles band AND an album band, and that was one of the great strengths of the band. Frankly, it's part of what is missing now, and how's that working out for them in terms of sales? Hmmmm . . .

I hope all is well.


Sterling

One other thing - I don't know about you all, but I was a bit disappointed to hear (from the BTM) that the only reason that my all time favorite song by Styx was the big hit that it was, was because Tommy Shaw and Jim Cahill bribed radio DJs with drugs...Kind of takes the magic out of the whole thing a bit...

[Zan]

One other thing - I don't know about you all, but I was a bit disappointed to hear (from the BTM) that the only reason that my all time favorite song by Styx was the big hit that it was, was because Tommy Shaw and Jim Cahill bribed radio DJs with drugs...Kind of takes the magic out of the whole thing a bit...

I wasn't disappointed, per se, but I was a little surprised to learn it. I have to admit, it does help take the hero aspect down a notch or two in the celebrity worship game (not necessarily US, but the public in general). I for one, was glad to learn about it - it made the band more "human" to me. Another reason why nothing surprises me when it comes to this band anymore - and why I love them regardless. CSA is just as good a song with or without its top ten stature (something many of us fans have been saying all along about MANY Styx songs). If it's magical for you on a personal level, it shouldn't matter what went into making it a success. The song hasn't changed.

[Rockwriter]

One other thing - I don't know about you all, but I was a bit disappointed to hear (from the BTM) that the only reason that my all time favorite song by Styx was the big hit that it was, was because Tommy Shaw and Jim Cahill bribed radio DJs with drugs...Kind of takes the magic out of the whole thing a bit...

I wasn't disappointed, per se, but I was a little surprised to learn it. I have to admit, it does help take the heroes down a notch or two in the celebrity worship game (not necessarily US, but the public in general). I for one, was glad to learn about it - it made the band more "human" to me. Another reason why nothing surprises me when it comes to this band anymore - and why I love them regardless. CSA is just as good a song with or without its top ten stature (something many of us fans have been saying all along about MANY Styx songs). If it's magical for you on a personal level, it shouldn't matter what went into making it a success. The song hasn't changed.

True, the song has not changed, and if it's any consolation, pretty much EVERY band that succeeded did that. That's the way the game was played back then (and by the way, payola is still a HUGE issue in the music business today, you hear records that were bought and paid for every day), and it made the difference between EQUINOX and CRYSTAL BALL - both great records that did not fulfill their sales potential - and all the records that followed starting with GI when Cahill came on board.

I'm struck by what Bob Garcia from A&M Records told me, and it rings true; he said (and this is from memory, not verbatim) "Yes, that can grease the rails, but in the end, no matter how greased the rails, you have to have something that catches on with audiences." And that's absolutely true. I feel like BTM kinda moved the drug/payola issue to the front because it was sensational and because Cahill doing the penguin strut was such great TV, LOL. But it was not THE reason for CSA hitting, it was just one part of an equation that included A&M spending a hell of a lot more money on Styx than they did before, and Styx being in the financial position to present a better-staged show then they ever had, plus Cahill produced an hour-long radio show with interviews with the band members about GI that the band used as a "Trojan horse" to radio . . . they would give it to radio stations in touring markets to play free, and basically it was a one-hour commercial for both the concert and the album, and it also included a lot of catalog music to re-introduce new fans to the back catalog. So when Cahill came on board Styx started using the event power of concerts to sell records and leverage the new single in a way they never had before. Payola was one part of that equation, perhaps a questionable part but only a part nonetheless. It garenered the song extra exposure, but in the end, if people hear it and don't like it, they won't buy it anyway. Styx had what it took, "Come Sail Away" had what it took, and Cahill just got the song the exposure it needed for people to see that fact.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

I think Cornerstone was the first album that pointedly had top 40 friendly singles on it. Progressive rock was fading and groups who were staying viable were the ones that found radio-friendly singles to release.

I remember the station in Houston that used to play entire albums and hearing The Grand Illusion, start to finish, on it. I always enjoyed that so much. Back then, radio stations had the creative freedom to do this with these types of recordings.

I do remember one interview with Dennis, it may have been on BTM, where he said Kilroy was also an attempt to get some Styx videos out there on the fledgling MTV.

What I find interesting is the videos Dennis did for his solo albums were way more interesting, and technically first class treatments, than anything from KWH. The video for "Call Me" is a really well-done visually creative interpretation of that song. As good as any video ever made in my book. Ditto "Boomchild."

OK, I got kinda off topic but this one seems to have turned into a free-ranging discussion, so, therefore, my .02.

Bugsy

Video not withstanding (as I agree - it was a very artistic video), "Call Me" was the wrong song to release as a single off BTTW. It was just too dog-gone slow and boring for top 40. I would have gone with This is The Time as the first release.

For me personally, I think people were a bit tired of the same old same old from Dennis at that point . . . I would have shaken it up and gone with "Black Wall" as the single. Dennis is such a great ballad writer, but I always felt that "Call Me" was uncharacteristically weak because it just takes so freakin' long to get to the chorus!


Sterling

[BlackWall]

I actually like it, but it's not a first single from an album kind of song..

I also have a hard time with the, "only seven numbers on the phone" lyrics..

[bugsymalone]

I actually like it, but it's not a first single from an album kind of song..

I also have a hard time with the, "only seven numbers on the phone" lyrics..

I like it too, but it took me awhile. I always have to put those "seven numbers" lyrics in context, but it is hard!


Bugsy

[X factor]

I think the whole TWO SINGLES ONLY thing has more to do with the fact that, back then, bands didn't milk their albums for five and six singles. Acts released an album, promoted it and then did another one. PIECES OF EIGHT came out just a little over a year after TGI. Thus they were onto the next project...Look at a band like KISS- they released 6 albums in thier first three years of existance. Obviously, STYX took a bit more time, but they were still pretty consistant with the "album a year" philosophy...
We didn't really begin to see artists milking albums for more than three singles till the 80's, what I loveingly refer to as the decade of the SUPER album (i.e. Born in the USA, Thriller, Purple Rain, etc...)

[stabbim]

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

Right. I think it's important to more clearly define the terms here. Releasing a song as a single and getting it played on the radio are not, at least as far as the scope of this discussion, the same thing.

At the time of TGI, the pop/singles market was an AM thing, and the AOR market was an FM thing, generally speaking. One did not have to release (and promote) a song as a "single" to get it played on the radio, even over fairly influential airwaves...but to crack the Top 40 was a whole different level of commercial success.

You also have to remember that even though Dennis', and to a certain extent Tommy's songs are the ones that charted the highest in the Top 40 format, Styx was a band that was one of the first real multi-format successes. Songs like "Miss America", "Snowblind", "The Grand Illusion", and even "Renegade" and "Blue Collar Man" got airplay in the other formats like rock radio, and that only made the band's demographic base that much wider. That was part of what made Styx so successful, is that their music had something for everybody in every format. That was one of the major strengths of the band and it was absolutely deliberate that the marketing exploited that strength.

I'd call it turning a weakness into a strength, considering how difficult it must have been in the early days to successfully market a band with such an eclectic palate. They managed to make it work for them on some level, but I'm not sure if the PTB were ever really pleased about it.

The thing about live by the single, die by the single . . . that's absolute nonsense. If that's so, then why did they employ Jim Cahill full-time for no other purpose than to go out and do whatever it took, including payola, to get singles played? Hearing a single is the only way most people know an album exists. Why would you NOT want that? That's idiotic, and it's something they have only started saying since firing Dennis. Styx was lucky enough to be both a singles band AND an album band, and that was one of the great strengths of the band. Frankly, it's part of what is missing now, and how's that working out for them in terms of sales? Hmmmm . . .

See, I think you're making TS's point for him, and this talk of "then why did they try so hard to get their songs on the radio?" is a bit disingenuous. It's one thing to release singles and push for radio play in one format or another, but it's another to center your aims as an artist around the pursuit of the Top 40 market, and mold your music to appeal to it. Clearly he felt that the band had tipped too far towards the latter from 79-83. No one disputes that it raised them (however briefly) into the commercial stratosphere, but the problem is that you need to continue chasing that market to maintain such a lofty position, and achieving anything less from that point on is considered failure.

That's what "live by the single, die by the single" means: once you've been that kind of band, you can't really go back (or forward, if you like) to being anything else unless you are prepared for the commercial downturn. It's not like TS is oblivious to the correlation between Styx conducting themselves more as an AOR/catalog band these days and the fact that they're not headlining stadiums and hitting triple platinum; he just doesn't seem to care too much about it.

[AnnieOprah]

Growing up in St. Paul MN, Miss America and The Grand Illusion also got heavy play from KQRS FM. This was the hip FM rock station in the Twin Cities.

Right. I think it's important to more clearly define the terms here. Releasing a song as a single and getting it played on the radio are not, at least as far as the scope of this discussion, the same thing.

At the time of TGI, the pop/singles market was an AM thing, and the AOR market was an FM thing, generally speaking. One did not have to release (and promote) a song as a "single" to get it played on the radio, even over fairly influential airwaves...but to crack the Top 40 was a whole different level of commercial success.

You also have to remember that even though Dennis', and to a certain extent Tommy's songs are the ones that charted the highest in the Top 40 format, Styx was a band that was one of the first real multi-format successes. Songs like "Miss America", "Snowblind", "The Grand Illusion", and even "Renegade" and "Blue Collar Man" got airplay in the other formats like rock radio, and that only made the band's demographic base that much wider. That was part of what made Styx so successful, is that their music had something for everybody in every format. That was one of the major strengths of the band and it was absolutely deliberate that the marketing exploited that strength.

I'd call it turning a weakness into a strength, considering how difficult it must have been in the early days to successfully market a band with such an eclectic palate. They managed to make it work for them on some level, but I'm not sure if the PTB were ever really pleased about it.

The thing about live by the single, die by the single . . . that's absolute nonsense. If that's so, then why did they employ Jim Cahill full-time for no other purpose than to go out and do whatever it took, including payola, to get singles played? Hearing a single is the only way most people know an album exists. Why would you NOT want that? That's idiotic, and it's something they have only started saying since firing Dennis. Styx was lucky enough to be both a singles band AND an album band, and that was one of the great strengths of the band. Frankly, it's part of what is missing now, and how's that working out for them in terms of sales? Hmmmm . . .

See, I think you're making TS's point for him, and this talk of "then why did they try so hard to get their songs on the radio?" is a bit disingenuous. It's one thing to release singles and push for radio play in one format or another, but it's another to center your aims as an artist around the pursuit of the Top 40 market, and mold your music to appeal to it. Clearly he felt that the band had tipped too far towards the latter from 79-83. No one disputes that it raised them (however briefly) into the commercial stratosphere, but the problem is that you need to continue chasing that market to maintain such a lofty position, and achieving anything less from that point on is considered failure.

That's what "live by the single, die by the single" means: once you've been that kind of band, you can't really go back (or forward, if you like) to being anything else unless you are prepared for the commercial downturn. It's not like TS is oblivious to the correlation between Styx conducting themselves more as an AOR/catalog band these days and the fact that they're not headlining stadiums and hitting triple platinum; he just doesn't seem to care too much about it.

I remember seeing that MTV Tommy Shaw special about the Girls With Guns tour and distinctly remember one of Tommy's quotes riding on the bus, "Every time we have a new record coming out, my mom calls me and swears that she has heard it on the radio - even before its been released. I always say to her, 'Well that all nice and everything mom, but did they happen to mention how it was doing on the charts?'" Tommy was as interested in the charts as anyone..

[yogi]

I am NOT saying that they were trying to avoid hit singles. What I am saying is that as a band they were out to produce SOLID SOLID albums.

At the time there were many many acts that were AM radio friendly. 3 minute songs that played perfectly into that type of format. Many groups and singers only cared about the hit 45's. Styx was not like that. They were more of a Pink Floyd/ Led Zepplin/ Queen type of band. They wanted good songs no matter what the length that fit into their album type of theme.

Most of their albums were concept based ( Loosely based concepts). The Grand Illusion, Pieces Of Eight, Paradise Theatre and of course Kilroy.

In my opinion the ONLY album that they did in an effort to produce hit singles was Cornerstone. That album was a pop type album. It did not have any sort of concept attached to it and the majority of the songs were very radio friendly.( Lights, Why Me, Babe, Never Say Never, First Time & Borrowed Time were all VERY VERY radio friendly type tunes for those days)

Finally, does anyone besides me think that Tommy tried to copy HIS success off of Pieces Of Eight on the Paradise Theatre album?? Tommy had three big songs off of Pieces. Styx single # 1 Blue Collar Man. A pretty much straight ahead rocker. Compare that to Too Much Time On My Hands. His Pieces of Eight song # 2 Sing For The Day. Slower but very melodic. Compare it to She Cares. Finally his # 3 song Renegade. Slow at the beginning and then a GREAT rocker. It also slows then rocks at the end. Snowblind copies Renegade perfectly.

I wasnt kidding. Snowblind should of been their third single released.

[stabbim]

I am NOT saying that they were trying to avoid hit singles. What I am saying is that as a band they were out to produce SOLID SOLID albums.

At the time there were many many acts that were AM radio friendly. 3 minute songs that played perfectly into that type of format. Many groups and singers only cared about the hit 45's. Styx was not like that. They were more of a Pink Floyd/ Led Zepplin/ Queen type of band. They wanted good songs no matter what the length that fit into their album type of theme.

Yeah, I was backing you up on that. Those other bands all released and promoted singles as well, but success on that front wasn't their top priority. Hell, the Floyd have only had two US Top 40 singles over the course of their entire career, and to this day their back catalog still outsells that of nearly every other rock artist in existence.

I wasnt kidding. Snowblind should of been their third single released.

Dunno. Might have been kinda artsy (and overly angst-ridden) for the same pop stations that ate up the other two singles. If they came up with a good edit, maybe.

[stabbim]

That's what "live by the single, die by the single" means: once you've been that kind of band, you can't really go back (or forward, if you like) to being anything else unless you are prepared for the commercial downturn. It's not like TS is oblivious to the correlation between Styx conducting themselves more as an AOR/catalog band these days and the fact that they're not headlining stadiums and hitting triple platinum; he just doesn't seem to care too much about it.

I remember seeing that MTV Tommy Shaw special about the Girls With Guns tour and distinctly remember one of Tommy's quotes riding on the bus, "Every time we have a new record coming out, my mom calls me and swears that she has heard it on the radio - even before its been released. I always say to her, 'Well that all nice and everything mom, but did they happen to mention how it was doing on the charts?'" Tommy was as interested in the charts as anyone..

Not really my point, but Ok.

[BlackWall]

I'm also surprised that they picked "Nothing Ever Goes As Planned" over "Rockin' The Paradise" as the third single. "RTP" pretty much seems like an obvious choice as a single; especially the chorus. I really enjoy "NEGAP", and I can see where Dennis probably wanted some of these more diverse styles to be exposed, but they had to know it wouldn't be a chart topper.

"Snowblind" is more of a "Suite Madame Blue" kind of track to me. It definitely deserves to be heard, but I'm not sure that it would have fit in a top 40 format. To be fair though, it might have had more success than "NEGAP"; especially with all of the controversy surrounding some of the lyrics. This might have hurt the airplay factor, but I bet sales for the single would have gone through the roof.

For the record, "Rockin' The Paradise" hit the album rock charts at #8, and "Snowblind" hit the same chart at #22.

[yogi]

I too think that about Snowblind. With the backwards satanical drama, plus Tipper, and the song being about Cocaine I think it would of gone through the roof. Add this to the fact it is VERY similiar to Renegade and I believe it would have reached top 10.

I would of followed it up with Rockin The Paradise. Dennis's similiar songs Best Of Times & Rockin The Paradise bookend Tommy's songs. I honestly believe Paradise Theatre would of sold 10 million copies had it happened like this.

P.S. I had no clue about the album chart and Snowblinds & Rockin The Paradise positions on it.

[cittadeeno23]

Black Wall, where are you getting this Rock Chart information from? I would love to have access to it. I saw a book from billboard, but it only covers the mid 80's. How can I find out where all of Styx's songs charted on the ROCK charts?
I know where all the pop singles charted, but I would love to know where the ROCK songs charted on the ROCK charts. And did Snowblind PEAK at 22?? That seems low. I remember the rock stations playing the crap out of that in 1981.

Also, about greasing the radio stations, Styx was at a disadvantage because the critics
hated them.
Most music critics don't judge bands by their MUSICAL TALENT. Which Styx had more of than any band on the planet. Styx was not Political nor controversial, which is the kind of Bullshit the critics like. If you don't beleive me, look at some of the no-talent bands in the Rock and Roll hall of fame. Yes, there are some very talented bands in the hall of fame, but there are a lot of bands there because of 'What they had to say', and not 'how they said it.'
I'm sorry, I don't care what a bands message is. If you can't sing, nor play your instruments very well, then you don't belong in the rock hall of fame. It is about MUSIC, isn't it???

Anyway, if it took some greasing to get more people to discover how talented Styx was, then so be it. They deserved the fame. Much more so than some other over-rated bands that I can name.

I feel better now!
Jimmy

[Rockwriter]

The thing about live by the single, die by the single . . . that's absolute nonsense. If that's so, then why did they employ Jim Cahill full-time for no other purpose than to go out and do whatever it took, including payola, to get singles played? Hearing a single is the only way most people know an album exists. Why would you NOT want that? That's idiotic, and it's something they have only started saying since firing Dennis. Styx was lucky enough to be both a singles band AND an album band, and that was one of the great strengths of the band. Frankly, it's part of what is missing now, and how's that working out for them in terms of sales? Hmmmm . . .

See, I think you're making TS's point for him, and this talk of "then why did they try so hard to get their songs on the radio?" is a bit disingenuous. It's one thing to release singles and push for radio play in one format or another, but it's another to center your aims as an artist around the pursuit of the Top 40 market, and mold your music to appeal to it. Clearly he felt that the band had tipped too far towards the latter from 79-83. No one disputes that it raised them (however briefly) into the commercial stratosphere, but the problem is that you need to continue chasing that market to maintain such a lofty position, and achieving anything less from that point on is considered failure.

That's what "live by the single, die by the single" means: once you've been that kind of band, you can't really go back (or forward, if you like) to being anything else unless you are prepared for the commercial downturn. It's not like TS is oblivious to the correlation between Styx conducting themselves more as an AOR/catalog band these days and the fact that they're not headlining stadiums and hitting triple platinum; he just doesn't seem to care too much about it.[/quote]



See, I think that Tommy himself is being disingenuous in that he does not clearly see his own role in the way things unfolded. For what it's worth, I actually agree that the band placed too much emphasis on ballads as singles releases in the last few years of the career; I don't think having the ballads out was a mistake, but I don't think they balanced it with enough songs like "Too Much Time On My Hands" to offset that. But you know why? Because Tommy wasn't writing enough strong singles like that, that's why. Because of his increasing problems and his alienation from the other guys at that time, he was failing to step up as a writer and make the strong contribution that he had on PO8, where he'd had both singles, which is why they were going with other songs for the singles (in a voting process that was an equal 5-way vote, incidentally, and with input from marketing and the record company).

By that same token, they were very upset with Sanctuary during CYCLO because they didn't feel they were making the record happen, but then again, look at the record and ask yourself, is there really anything there that stands up to "Renegade"? Or "Blue Collar Man"? Or even "Miss America"? For me the answer is a resounding no. They made an album that is a very good record of songs, but it was also an album that was woefully out of step not only with the tastes of a lot of their own fan base, but with everything that was going on in music at that time. It wasn't like they didn't WANT singles success from that . . . if they didn't, why then did they release "Yes I Can", perhaps the least representative song on the album, to AC stations? They just didn't have the goods on there, and of course they fumbled the one thing that might have done something for them in the contemporary marketplace, Glen's "Kiss Your Ass Goodbye".

So I think a lot of them saying "Live by the single, die by the single" comes from their own ego needs, which are making them look backward at their own success and try to find fault with the parts of it that did not come from the current band members. It's really just human nature to do that, after all.

I hope all is well .


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

I am NOT saying that they were trying to avoid hit singles. What I am saying is that as a band they were out to produce SOLID SOLID albums.

At the time there were many many acts that were AM radio friendly. 3 minute songs that played perfectly into that type of format. Many groups and singers only cared about the hit 45's. Styx was not like that. They were more of a Pink Floyd/ Led Zepplin/ Queen type of band. They wanted good songs no matter what the length that fit into their album type of theme.

Most of their albums were concept based ( Loosely based concepts). The Grand Illusion, Pieces Of Eight, Paradise Theatre and of course Kilroy.

In my opinion the ONLY album that they did in an effort to produce hit singles was Cornerstone. That album was a pop type album. It did not have any sort of concept attached to it and the majority of the songs were very radio friendly.( Lights, Why Me, Babe, Never Say Never, First Time & Borrowed Time were all VERY VERY radio friendly type tunes for those days)

Finally, does anyone besides me think that Tommy tried to copy HIS success off of Pieces Of Eight on the Paradise Theatre album?? Tommy had three big songs off of Pieces. Styx single # 1 Blue Collar Man. A pretty much straight ahead rocker. Compare that to Too Much Time On My Hands. His Pieces of Eight song # 2 Sing For The Day. Slower but very melodic. Compare it to She Cares. Finally his # 3 song Renegade. Slow at the beginning and then a GREAT rocker. It also slows then rocks at the end. Snowblind copies Renegade perfectly.

I wasnt kidding. Snowblind should of been their third single released.

Oh no, I totally agree that they were trying, and for the most part succeeding, in making really solid albums that you could listen to from top to bottom. I don't really agree that they tried to make Cornertone about the singles, I think it just fell the way it did because they were trying to get away from prog rock, which was dying, and in so doing they discovered that both Dennis and Tommy were talentd pop writers. If you look at it, JY's contributions to that album stick out like a sore thumb because he was just unable to get on the same page with them; he's just not the same kind of diverse writer.

Interesting point about Tommy's songs on PT, but frankly, I don't think Tommy was capable of deliberately doing that at that time. That would have taken conscious thought and a plan, and Tommy was really not foucsed enough for that at that point. I think it's probably just accidental, and of course "She Cares" is quite a bit weaker than the rest of the album. I'm a little bit amazed that he was capable of "Too Much Time" at that point. That was kinda the last gasp for him, and if you look at the subsequent records, his efforts were wildly up and down all the way up until AMBITION when he got clean and sober. His first two solo albums have quite a bit of filler, to put it kindly. LOL.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[stabbim]

I would love to have access to it. I saw a book from billboard, but it only covers the mid 80's. How can I find out where all of Styx's songs charted on the ROCK charts?

I know where all the pop singles charted, but I would love to know where the ROCK songs charted on the ROCK charts. And did Snowblind PEAK at 22?? That seems low. I remember the rock stations playing the crap out of that in 1981.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx_%28band%29#Singles

[Rockwriter]

Black Wall, where are you getting this Rock Chart information from? I would love to have access to it. I saw a book from billboard, but it only covers the mid 80's. How can I find out where all of Styx's songs charted on the ROCK charts?
I know where all the pop singles charted, but I would love to know where the ROCK songs charted on the ROCK charts. And did Snowblind PEAK at 22?? That seems low. I remember the rock stations playing the crap out of that in 1981.

Also, about greasing the radio stations, Styx was at a disadvantage because the critics
hated them.
Most music critics don't judge bands by their MUSICAL TALENT. Which Styx had more of than any band on the planet. Styx was not Political nor controversial, which is the kind of Bullshit the critics like. If you don't beleive me, look at some of the no-talent bands in the Rock and Roll hall of fame. Yes, there are some very talented bands in the hall of fame, but there are a lot of bands there because of 'What they had to say', and not 'how they said it.'
I'm sorry, I don't care what a bands message is. If you can't sing, nor play your instruments very well, then you don't belong in the rock hall of fame. It is about MUSIC, isn't it???

Anyway, if it took some greasing to get more people to discover how talented Styx was, then so be it. They deserved the fame. Much more so than some other over-rated bands that I can name.

I feel better now!
Jimmy

I agree completely with your point about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which is actually a misnomer because fame is not one of the main considerations for inclusion. They should change the name to the Rock and Roll Hall of Critical Acceptance. It's based on the tastes of a handful of elitist critics, not the tastes of the audience whose money fuels the economy of that industry, which is stupid.

However, Styx was not at a disadvantage at radio because of critics. The two are unreleated. Radio wants to play music that people will like so that they will tune in. Simple as that. If anything, Styx had a huge radio advantage over most bands that had more critical acceptance, because radio did NOT play bands like Sex Pistols, the Clash (with an exception or two), et al. So they will have to console themselves with riches and fame while the guys that used to play in most critically lauded bands work day jobs now, LOL. Too bad.


Sterling

[BlackWall]

What I have is actually the book, "Top Pop Singles, 1955-2002", by Joel Whitburn. The reason why information for "Rockin' The Paradise" and "Snowblind" is given is because both tracks were issued as b-sides to singles from "Kilroy Was Here": "Rockin' The Paradise" was a b-side to "Mr. Roboto"; and "Snowblind" was a b-side for "Don't Let It End". This book lists all b-sides, and if any happened to make one of the charts, it lists that information.

The chart that "RTP" and "Snowblind" made is referred to as "Mainstream(Album) Rock Tracks; it started in 1981. Whitburn did publish a book for this chart as well, but I've never been able to find it..

Another Whitburn book I'd like to come across gives information for a chart that's known as "Bubbled Under". Incase anyone doesn't know, this chart represents songs that almost charted in the top 100, but didn't quite make it- I think it lists positions up to #125, and Styx had some on this one, too. I remember seeing somewhere that "Crystal Ball" was one of them..(I think).

[cittadeeno23]

Sterling, you are 100% right about the hall of fame. It's a joke. But the Elitists run everything, not just the hall of fame. So as long as we continue to let them, nothing will change.

But as far as MUSICAL talent goes, I guess it is just a matter of taste. To my ear, STYX blows away
bands like the Sex Pistols and the Clash, who by the way, the Horrible Rolling Stone magazine loves to death.

Jimmy

[cittadeeno23]

Thanks Black Wall. I didn't think a book for the Mainstream rock charts existed for the 1970's.
I would love to know how much airplay all of Styx's rock songs got on FM radio in the 70's.

Jimmy

[stabbim]

See, I think that Tommy himself is being disingenuous in that he does not clearly see his own role in the way things unfolded.

I seem to have missed the bit where he completely absolves himself of any responsibility for the band going in a direction that he ultimately didn't care for aesthetically and/or found to be self-defeating. Got a cite?

For what it's worth, I actually agree that the band placed too much emphasis on ballads as singles releases in the last few years of the career; I don't think having the ballads out was a mistake, but I don't think they balanced it with enough songs like "Too Much Time On My Hands" to offset that.

Er...sort of. It's not just ballads, though; it's pop. To my ears, TMTOMH and BCM are worlds apart in terms of composition, production, and performance. TMTOMH actually has more in common with Mr Roboto, stylistically.

By that same token, they were very upset with Sanctuary during CYCLO because they didn't feel they were making the record happen, but then again, look at the record and ask yourself, is there really anything there that stands up to "Renegade"? Or "Blue Collar Man"? Or even "Miss America"? For me the answer is a resounding no. They made an album that is a very good record of songs, but it was also an album that was woefully out of step not only with the tastes of a lot of their own fan base, but with everything that was going on in music at that time. It wasn't like they didn't WANT singles success from that . . . if they didn't, why then did they release "Yes I Can", perhaps the least representative song on the album, to AC stations? They just didn't have the goods on there, and of course they fumbled the one thing that might have done something for them in the contemporary marketplace, Glen's "Kiss Your Ass Goodbye".

Oh, I agree that a rather lengthy treatise could be written on the exercise in spectacular ball-dropping and mismanagement that was promotion of Cyclorama, and there's plenty of culpability to go around on that -- including the band not learning from what they would probably deem as mistakes of the past. However, I disagree that the album was lacking in songs with airplay/chart potential, and I strongly disagree that it was void of songs with appeal for the average Styx fan.

]So I think a lot of them saying "Live by the single, die by the single" comes from their own ego needs, which are making them look backward at their own success and try to find fault with the parts of it that did not come from the current band members. It's really just human nature to do that, after all.

And I think you seem determined to frame the remarks as primarily an attempt to assign blame, specifically in an anti-DDY vein. Sorry, but I just don't see that being the overall point.