CMN show from 1999

[stabbim]

Side note: "fix the tracks that Dennis thought needed fixing" is a fantastic euphamism.

You mean wonderful tracks like "Brave New World (Reprise)" and its excellent mix? Boy, that album is perfect. Needs no fixing!

Not disputing that BNW is chock full of missed opportunities and general half-assery. Just pointing out that "fixing" in DDY terms means something more akin to time travel than simply having another run at the mixing desk.

(and I rather like the reprise)

[Rockwriter]

Side note: "fix the tracks that Dennis thought needed fixing" is a fantastic euphamism.

You mean wonderful tracks like "Brave New World (Reprise)" and its excellent mix? Boy, that album is perfect. Needs no fixing!

[humor, ar-ar!]Allen, you have the most bizarre taste.[/humor] LOL

BNW reprise is one of my favorite, if not (to me) the most "Styx sounding" songs ON the album.

Side bar: I am not sure that was actually Stabbim's point, anyway.

Well, the reprise was an attempt to "wrap it up" as Styx had always done on concept albums, but man, does it ever show that some of those vocals are "flown in" from other tracks. The Dennis vocals on that were obviously sung somewhere else - maybe on an alternate take of the title song? - and then edited into that reprise, not sung to that track. When his voice comes in, it's like he suddenly burst into the room from out of nowhere and just screams, "I watch the parade BEGIN!" LOL. One of the worst edits I have ever heard. And because things have been edited together, there are continuity problems and tuning problems galore on that track. It's always sounded to me - and this is true of much of that album - that someone finally just said, "You know what, to hell with it, let's just release what we have, take our beating and be done with it." LOL.
There are editing problems all through this album, I'm assuming because of the screwy way it was recorded and edited together. It can't be easy to try to assemble all kinds of different, diconnected performances into any kind of cohesive whole - and clearly, for the most part they didn't, LOL. I bet there's not one person in the band who could list the names of everyone who played on the record.


Sterling

[shaka]

Every time Styx comes to Utah JY always points out in concert and in the press that Utah was the first state outside of Illinois to really embrace Styx. I've heard him mention the Provo Ice House (went from ice skating rink to grocery store and was torn down a few years ago) as one of the first successful out of state gigs Styx played. Leave it to Marie Osmond and Steve Young, both of whom are closely tied to Utah, to get a great band like Styx to play for their telethon.

I regret that I didn't get a pic of the Ice House before they tore it down. It was a Provo landmark and has a place in Styx history. The Ice House was a strange looking place and had the appearance of a turtle that had retracted it's body parts into it's shell.

As stated above the Ice House was eventually turned into a Reams grocery store. I'd wager that Steve Young used to shop there because of its proximity to BYU. The owners of the grocery store were also my landlords my sophopmore year of college. I rarely shopped at the forme Ice House because I couldn't stand my landlords.

You can see a small pic of the place here:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635173984,00.html

[stabbim]

Side bar: I am not sure that was actually Stabbim's point, anyway.

It really wasn't.

The Dennis vocals on that were obviously sung somewhere else - maybe on an alternate take of the title song? - and then edited into that reprise, not sung to that track. When his voice comes in, it's like he suddenly burst into the room from out of nowhere and just screams, "I watch the parade BEGIN!" LOL. One of the worst edits I have ever heard.

Thing is, that semi-chaotic quality is one of the things that I like most about the song. The off-timing here and there, the different voices jumping in and out of the mix...to me, it makes the song interesting, gives it some personality. Agreed that it probably wasn't a deliberate choice, though.

And because things have been edited together, there are continuity problems and tuning problems galore on that track.

I don't hear anything egregiously out of tune, but I'll admit that my ears are not as highly attuned as some other folks' are.

It's always sounded to me - and this is true of much of that album - that someone finally just said,
"You know what, to hell with it, let's just release what we have, take our beating and be done with it." LOL.

No doubt in my mind that this was exactly the attitude. It was either that or bury the thing and never let it see the light of day, and I think CMC had too much invested by then to choose the second option.

[StyxCollector]

It's always sounded to me - and this is true of much of that album - that someone finally just said,
"You know what, to hell with it, let's just release what we have, take our beating and be done with it." LOL.

No doubt in my mind that this was exactly the attitude. It was either that or bury the thing and never let it see the light of day, and I think CMC had too much invested by then to choose the second option.

Agreed on CMC, and they probably had some sort of drop-dead deadline to meet. Anyone with 1/2 a brain can hear that album still needed work.

[Rockwriter]

Side note: "fix the tracks that Dennis thought needed fixing" is a fantastic euphamism.

You mean wonderful tracks like "Brave New World (Reprise)" and its excellent mix? Boy, that album is perfect. Needs no fixing!

Not disputing that BNW is chock full of missed opportunities and general half-assery. Just pointing out that "fixing" in DDY terms means something more akin to time travel than simply having another run at the mixing desk.

(and I rather like the reprise)

We'll have to agree to disagree about the reprise, but you're dead right about what "fixing" the album would have likely entailed from Dennis' perspective. I would imagine "erasing" and "re-recording" are actually the pertinent phrases, LOL. And to some extent I agree. There are certainly some tracks that could have been a lot more like Styx with better performances, and there are others that simply should not have made the cut at all. There are also some reasonably strong songs that could have been even better. But oh well.


Sterling

[stabbim]

It's always sounded to me - and this is true of much of that album - that someone finally just said,
"You know what, to hell with it, let's just release what we have, take our beating and be done with it." LOL.

No doubt in my mind that this was exactly the attitude. It was either that or bury the thing and never let it see the light of day, and I think CMC had too much invested by then to choose the second option.

Agreed on CMC, and they probably had some sort of drop-dead deadline to meet.

Well, there was semi-official talk of a late June release date as early as December 1998. In retrospect, it smacks of a last-ditch effort to assert some discipline over the project, IMO.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the reprise, but you're dead right about what "fixing" the album would have likely entailed from Dennis' perspective. I would imagine "erasing" and "re-recording" are actually the pertinent phrases, LOL.

Along with sole production credit, restricting recording work to his studio (and all that implies), veto power over which songs were recorded, choosing the album artwork, dictating the amount of dates on the tour, immortality, x-ray vision, turning lead into gold...

And to some extent I agree. There are certainly some tracks that could have been a lot more like Styx with better performances, and there are others that simply should not have made the cut at all. There are also some reasonably strong songs that could have been even better. But oh well.

Absolutely. And I the point I've been trying to make is that by the time the CMN thing rolled around, that ship had already sailed, never to return. Must have been a lot of frustrating non-fun for Tom Lipsky et al, watching this dream project completely disintegrate over the course of 18 months or so.

[Rockwriter]

It's always sounded to me - and this is true of much of that album - that someone finally just said,
"You know what, to hell with it, let's just release what we have, take our beating and be done with it." LOL.

No doubt in my mind that this was exactly the attitude. It was either that or bury the thing and never let it see the light of day, and I think CMC had too much invested by then to choose the second option.

Agreed on CMC, and they probably had some sort of drop-dead deadline to meet.

Well, there was semi-official talk of a late June release date as early as December 1998. In retrospect, it smacks of a last-ditch effort to assert some discipline over the project, IMO.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the reprise, but you're dead right about what "fixing" the album would have likely entailed from Dennis' perspective. I would imagine "erasing" and "re-recording" are actually the pertinent phrases, LOL.

Along with sole production credit, restricting recording work to his studio (and all that implies), veto power over which songs were recorded, choosing the album artwork, dictating the amount of dates on the tour, immortality, x-ray vision, turning lead into gold...

And to some extent I agree. There are certainly some tracks that could have been a lot more like Styx with better performances, and there are others that simply should not have made the cut at all. There are also some reasonably strong songs that could have been even better. But oh well.

Absolutely. And I the point I've been trying to make is that by the time the CMN thing rolled around, that ship had already sailed, never to return. Must have been a lot of frustrating non-fun for Tom Lipsky et al, watching this dream project completely disintegrate over the course of 18 months or so.

I interviewed Lipsky as well (President of CMC for those who did not know). Again not looking at the text, he said something like, "I felt the same way about it that they felt about it, which is that it was actually two records. In hearing it being recorded, it was great, but in hearing the final product, it was obvious that there was too much individual production of each song. The collective involvement that had characterized the best of the band's earlier efforts did not happen."
In regard to Dennis and his illness Lipsky said, " I left that as something the band had to sort out for itself. I wasn't about to go and send in different doctors. Everyone knew that Dennis had seen a lot of doctors, and he ended up coming and reporting that he had developed a condition which caused him to be sensitive to bright lights. Of course, that's incompatible with a concert tour for a lot of obvious reasons."
Regarding the switch from Dennis to Gowan: "Obviously not good news, because we had signed the band based on the demand for the reunion of all the members. But we were two years in at that point, and we had a strong relationship with the members of the band. We have no say about touring; it's our job to take the recordings that the band gives us and exploit them, which is what we did. We have no say in the planning and organizing of tours, other than to say that whatever members toured behind the album, we would keep them busy with promotion for Brave New World. I don't know if Dennis was very angry about that or not, but when I spoke to him about it, he realized that we had an investment in this record, and that if anybody was going to go door to door singing the praises of Brave New World, then we had a responsibility to get behind that and promote it, which is what we did."

So there's a window into how the record company felt about it.


Sterling

[styxfansite]

On the "Best of Times" Video, is that Jy's voice that is way off key?

[brywool]

rockwriter's posts are fascinating. I'd really like to get my hands on that book....

[Rockwriter]

rockwriter's posts are fascinating. I'd really like to get my hands on that book....

Me too! LOL.

Seriously, I have approved everything except an actual physical copy. I reviewed the PDF and it has gone to production, and the single thing standing between now and setting a new release date is me approving a physical copy of the book, which is supposed to happen any time now. Afer that it will go to distribution, which is a a couple of weeks' process. I will set a new release date then and after that you will (hopefully) start seeing a whole lot of cool stuff that I have been working on to promote the release . . . interviews, excerpts, contests, radio appearances, articles and so on.


Sterling

[cittadeeno23]

So, after reading Sterling's last post, am I the only one who thinks that Dennis might still be in the band if CMC wasn't pushing so hard for a tour right away to promote BNW??
I know JY was fed up with Dennis, but if the pressure wasn't so strong to promote BNW couldn't "cooler heads" have prevailed?? Wouldn't it have been a BETTER financial decision on CMC's part for STYX to have FIXED BNW before releasing it? Would more people have purchased it if it had sounded more like a STYX album, even if that meant it would have been delayed a few months? Would more people have purchased BNW if they had just come from a Styx Concert (once again, that was delayed until Dennis felt better) promoting and playing songs from BNW in which DENNIS, JY, Tommy and Chuck had been on stage together?

Wouldn't hearing Dennis singing "Goodbye Roseland" live possibly have led to a few more BNW sales than hearing some Canadian Guy with Spinning Keyboards singing "Criminal Mind"???
I'm no Record Executive, but I can tell you when walking out of a Styx concert, the fans are going to be 10 times more likely to buy their new album on the way out if Dennis is on the cover instead of Larry Gowen.

Of course, It may have been too late anyway. JY and Tommy were fed up, But if you are CMC, doesn't it make sense to TRY and delay it and have it done right with the band that you signed? Which included Dennis?
What do you think Sterling? Am I way off on this?? Was there any hope back then of fixing this, or was it too far gone in your opinion?

Jimmy

[stabbim]

So, after reading Sterling's last post, am I the only one who thinks that Dennis might still be in the band if CMC wasn't pushing so hard for a tour right away to promote BNW??

You're not alone in this view, but I believe that it's incorrect.

This isn't the sort of thing that could be cleared up with "a few months" delay. The band had, for all intents and purposes, dissolved during the recording process. My read on the situation is that the June 1999 release date was already the product of delay upon delay, while the record company waited for the band to get its act together. Finally, someone had to pull the ripcord. There was no unscrambling the egg at that point, in terms of what had been produced in the studio.

Of course it would have made more financial/business sense, for everyone involved, to have a strong, cohesive album produced and promoted by the classic lineup of the band. The fact that the album was released and a tour mounted in spite of that fairly obvious notion tells me that it simply wasn't going to happen. CMC was in damage control mode, and doing things the way they (and the band) did was, from their perspective, the only chance of getting anything done at all.

I too am interested in seeing how (and to what extent) this is all covered in Sterling's book....or CP's, for that matter. What went down between 1997-2000 could fill a novel by itself, I'm sure.

[cittadeeno23]

You are probably right. I'm sure things were too far gone by then. But I too am looking forward to what Sterling and Chuck have to say about it.

I remember when Tommy released 7DZ and He was online chating with fans (this was 1998).
I asked him if Styx was going to release the new album and go on tour in 1999 like we had been expecting, and his response was "That's what I'm hearing".
So even he seemed like he was unsure of the plans of the band at that point.

Right then and there I had a bad feeling something was up.

[styxfanNH]

Tommy at one point during making the album is on record as tellign DDY that if they weren't going to tour the album then he wasn't going to finish it. At that point the band was done.

If my timeline is right, Chuck was fighting HIV pretty hard at that point. He couldn't have done a tour. So what remained of the Classic lineup wpuld never had toured that album.

[StyxCollector]

Tommy at one point during making the album is on record as tellign DDY that if they weren't going to tour the album then he wasn't going to finish it. At that point the band was done.

If my timeline is right, Chuck was fighting HIV pretty hard at that point. He couldn't have done a tour. So what remained of the Classic lineup wpuld never had toured that album.

Things had to have broken down after the 7DZ Borders tour. If you look at the Chicago date, Tommy and Dennis are getting along just fine. I don't think DDY showed up to put up a good front. So whatever transpired between the summer of 1998 and the summer of 1999 has to be fascinating.

[styxfanNH]

I agree Allan, they looked like they were best of friends at that point and both had put the past behind them.

I am guessing that it had to do with the believability of Dennis' illness and his dedication to the project on Tommy and JY's part. It is clear that they wanted to tour and they felt Dennis was coming up with an excuse not to tour. In the land of what ifs, if Dennis doesn't get sick and they actually put BNW together the way it should have been - the "We want to rock!!!" montra wouldn't have reared its ugly head.

[StyxCollector]

Let's assume that things were still in the demo phase in the summer of 1998. I would say "Everything Is Cool" is part of these sessions. It's one of - if not the only - cohesive band track on there. We already know "While There's Still Time" is the same version that got yanked from the 1996 A&M June Sampler just fixed up a little. What I think (again, my take) is that during the demo phase besides "EIC", everyone went into their own corners and wrote. Sick had nothing to do with recording since that can be done in a dark studio. So when the tapes got passed around and, say, DDY was not liking stuff like "I Will Be Your Witness" and they were not liking "High Crimes & Misdemeanors", I'm guessing the camps started to happen again. We know the album was in such a state that by February, 1999, they started thinking tour. Things were not completely off the rails yet. I think once the infamous "wait for me" conversation happened is when the stone was permanently fractured. So we're talking roughly a 3 - 4 month timeframe where it all went to hell. The seeds were sown before, though.

TS/JY were holed up in California, DDY in Chicago, and you didn't have a strong personality like a Derek Sutton or Jim Vose to knock heads together. They stayed split, sending tapes and using some studio musicians. If someone impartial was able to get them in the same room, whittle down the material to 8 - 10 songs (even with some new ones, throwing out some of the ones on the CD as is), and get them working as a band, things would have been way different. The only musician we can say 100% was on every track is Todd. I also find it funny that in hindsight they blamed Ron Nevison a bit, yet he did a fantastic job with DY and had a previous working relationship with Tommy. Bad production also (ahem) plagued that unreleased DY album in 1999, too. Anyone notice a trend?

That makes the JY comment in the interview (see other thread) interesting about how they are all spread out.

We can speculate all we want, but the only ones who know the whole truth are the guys in the band. I don't think I'm that far off, tho.

[Grotelul]

Let's assume that things were still in the demo phase in the summer of 1998. I would say "Everything Is Cool" is part of these sessions. It's one of - if not the only - cohesive band track on there. We already know "While There's Still Time" is the same version that got yanked from the 1996 A&M June Sampler just fixed up a little. What I think (again, my take) is that during the demo phase besides "EIC", everyone went into their own corners and wrote. Sick had nothing to do with recording since that can be done in a dark studio. So when the tapes got passed around and, say, DDY was not liking stuff like "I Will Be Your Witness" and they were not liking "High Crimes & Misdemeanors", I'm guessing the camps started to happen again. We know the album was in such a state that by February, 1999, they started thinking tour. Things were not completely off the rails yet. I think once the infamous "wait for me" conversation happened is when the stone was permanently fractured. So we're talking roughly a 3 - 4 month timeframe where it all went to hell. The seeds were sown before, though.

TS/JY were holed up in California, DDY in Chicago, and you didn't have a strong personality like a Derek Sutton or Jim Vose to knock heads together. They stayed split, sending tapes and using some studio musicians. If someone impartial was able to get them in the same room, whittle down the material to 8 - 10 songs (even with some new ones, throwing out some of the ones on the CD as is), and get them working as a band, things would have been way different. The only musician we can say 100% was on every track is Todd. I also find it funny that in hindsight they blamed Ron Nevison a bit, yet he did a fantastic job with DY and had a previous working relationship with Tommy. Bad production also (ahem) plagued that unreleased DY album in 1999, too. Anyone notice a trend?

That makes the JY comment in the interview (see other thread) interesting about how they are all spread out.

We can speculate all we want, but the only ones who know the whole truth are the guys in the band. I don't think I'm that far off, tho.

Who was their manager at the time? Charlie Brusco? Why didn't do something while this is all going on? Big business here, I sure as hell would have knocked some heads to create something that was important. But then again I could see with all of these strong personalities and the mind set they had at the time, what could he really do.

[DavidD]

I regret that I didn't get a pic of the Ice House before they tore it down. It was a Provo landmark and has a place in Styx history. The Ice House was a strange looking place and had the appearance of a turtle that had retracted it's body parts into it's shell.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635173984,00.html

Man looks like the roof would do good with a bunch of snow. Too bad they tore down another American landmark.

David

[stabbim]

We can speculate all we want, but the only ones who know the whole truth are the guys in the band. I don't think I'm that far off, tho.

Ayup. Standard disclaimers about not actually having been there aside, I think this is a pretty reasonable version of events, at least in bold print. A couple of caveats, though:

1) Rather than the band waiting until after the 7DZ cycle to start work in earnest, I believe it's likely that there were a few aborted attempts before then, which is how 7DZ came about in the first place. TS had been working on new material for a prospective Styx album as far back as '96, and was tired of spinning his wheels.

2) "Sick" has everything to do with recording, when it becomes an excuse to never leave one's home studio.

I also find it funny that in hindsight they blamed Ron Nevison a bit, yet he did a fantastic job with DY and had a previous working relationship with Tommy. Bad production also (ahem) plagued that unreleased DY album in 1999, too. Anyone notice a trend?

Agreed that Nevison was somewhat of a scapegoat for problems caused by inter-band strife &/or procrastination, but honestly, the TS/JY tunes on BNW do have his stamp on them, especially the bass & drums. The sound is decent, but not nearly as good as the production work that TS did himself on 7DZ. Makes me wonder why they even brought Nevison in.

The trend of bands choosing not to work together on creative projects and then suddenly ceasing to be bands anymore is definitely a noticeable one.

[StyxCollector]

Ayup. Standard disclaimers about not actually having been there aside, I think this is a pretty reasonable version of events, at least in bold print.

I try Sometimes you need to look through the bullshit to see where the truth may lie.

A couple of caveats, though:

1) Rather than the band waiting until after the 7DZ cycle to start work in earnest, I believe it's likely that there were a few aborted attempts before then, which is how 7DZ came about in the first place. TS had been working on new material for a prospective Styx album as far back as '96, and was tired of spinning his wheels.

... and this is also how GWG started, too. I would agree that talk of a new album and writing sessions (as a band) probably started in 1997, not '96.

2) "Sick" has everything to do with recording, when it becomes an excuse to never leave one's home studio.

Yes, but if working together was an issue and things were not going well, don't you think - especially knowing the past history with themselves - that instead of digging their heels in they would attempt to go to Chicago? Maybe it happened. I don't know. And I won't even speculate.

I also find it funny that in hindsight they blamed Ron Nevison a bit, yet he did a fantastic job with DY and had a previous working relationship with Tommy. Bad production also (ahem) plagued that unreleased DY album in 1999, too. Anyone notice a trend?

Agreed that Nevison was somewhat of a scapegoat for problems caused by inter-band strife &/or procrastination, but honestly, the TS/JY tunes on BNW do have his stamp on them, especially the bass & drums. The sound is decent, but doesn't sound nearly as good as the production work that TS did himself on 7DZ. Makes me wonder why they even brought him in.

The trend of bands choosing not to work together on creative projects and then suddenly ceasing to be bands anymore is definitely a noticeable one.

You can also draw the parallel from BBT to Influence. Influence is a much better sounding, performed, and feeling record ... and was recorded between Jack's home studio and Tommy's home studio. It sounds like guys who love what they're doing. In the case with Styx or a named act doing a major project (and it was going to mark their recorded comeback as a band - no label pressure ), sometimes you need an "impartial" third party (or name producer) to sort out the mess. It's possible everything was recorded, no one wanted to deal with it, so Ron had to make lemonade out of turds in some cases. We don't know how involved the band was in the mixing process. I think Tommy's prior (and good) association via DY led Ron there, but unfortunately it didn't pan out.

I would think Tommy and JY were the most active in the mixing/sequencing, but again, I think they knew it was going to largely be DOA, so how much creative effort were they going to put in knowing this from the get-go?

[Zan]

You can also draw the parallel from BBT to Influence. Influence is a much better sounding, performed, and feeling record ... and was recorded between Jack's home studio and Tommy's home studio. It sounds like guys who love what they're doing. In the case with Styx or a named act doing a major project (and it was going to mark their recorded comeback as a band - no label pressure ), sometimes you need an "impartial" third party (or name producer) to sort out the mess.

Or maybe it sounds better because it's not being bolloxed by JY's and Gowan's voices.

I'm KIDDING, people!

But seriously, speculation aside, I do know that enjoying a project generally shines through on the finished product, so that could be a valid argument.

[bugsymalone]

I do know that enjoying a project generally shines through on the finished product, so that could be a valid argument.

Very true. I also think that there was a certain freshness to this project for both of them, but especially for Tommy. I would think that would have a bearing on the finished product as well.

Bugsy

[Zan]

Very true. I also think that there was a certain freshness to this project for both of them, but especially for Tommy. I would think that would have a bearing on the finished product as well.

Bugsy

Speaking for myself, playing gigs I enjoy, as opposed to ones I play because I need the money or do out of obligation, are almost *always* better acorss the board. The fact that I'm enjoying myself makes it so much more enjoyable for me, for my bandmates, for the audience. I'm sure it's no different for "real" professionals.

[bugsymalone]

I might also add that, to me, there was hardly a better blend of two voices than Tommy Shaw and Dennis DeYoung. I believe Tommy and Jack come very close. The two of them, to me, sound far better than the blend from Current Styx.

The songs I have heard from this Shaw/Blades CD are really nice!

Bugsy

[stabbim]

A couple of caveats, though:

1) Rather than the band waiting until after the 7DZ cycle to start work in earnest, I believe it's likely that there were a few aborted attempts before then, which is how 7DZ came about in the first place. TS had been working on new material for a prospective Styx album as far back as '96, and was tired of spinning his wheels.

... and this is also how GWG started, too. I would agree that talk of a new album and writing sessions (as a band) probably started in 1997, not '96.

Fair enough. What got me thinking along those lines was this excerpt from an interview on the Bob & Tom Show during the RTP tour:

Bob: Now, will this new tour generate a new album?

TS: Well, it kind of already started to. It's hard to just kind of do this [the reunion] a little bit -- it's like being a little bit pregnant.

[discussion of progression from Lady 95 to touring plans to the new tunes on GH2 snipped]

TS: So what happened is that we've started lots of great Styx songs. When I started thinking about what's going to be on a new Styx album, I started thinking, like, the long...you know, the things that I loved about Styx [were] those really wandering, long, artistic "art rock" pieces of music. So I got started on a couple of those, and some heavy stuff that JY sings, and I wrote this other thing for Dennis to sing. But we didn't have a chance to finish all of it.

We know from subsequent interviews that TaTT was demoed as a candidate for the RTP live album and that EiC was originally written for DDY. Just speculating, of course, but it's interesting in retrospect. Clearly the band was struggling with putting the various demands of touring, writing, securing a label, side projects (Hunchback, DY/SB, etc) into a workable perspective while the new material kept slipping out in fits and starts rather than as a coherent project. Must have been frustrating for them -- as a fan, I know it was frustrating for me.

Yes, but if working together was an issue and things were not going well, don't you think - especially knowing the past history with themselves - that instead of digging their heels in they would attempt to go to Chicago? Maybe it happened. I don't know. And I won't even speculate.

According to TS, the work did at least start out in Chicago. I remember his first Note From The Band on the recording process of BNW (and the only one; another sign of trouble in paradise, to so speak) mentioning that Todd completed 9 or 10 drum tracks at DDY's place in late 1998, with the whole band in attendance.

In the case with Styx or a named act doing a major project (and it was going to mark their recorded comeback as a band - no label pressure ), sometimes you need an "impartial" third party (or name producer) to sort out the mess.

True. As long as we're in total fanboy mode and dwelling on the might-have-beens, I think a superproducer along the lines of Rick Rubin -- someone who could let the band's musical identity shine through while providing them with motivation, discipline, and a certain amount of "modern" credibility -- might have been a better choice than letting the considerable number of cooks in the Styx kitchen try to work things out for themselves. It's antithetical to the way they had become accustomed to making records, I know, but in the end it could have been the silver bullet. Ah, well.

I would think Tommy and JY were the most active in the mixing/sequencing, but again, I think they knew it was going to largely be DOA, so how much creative effort were they going to put in knowing this from the get-go?

Good point. Sad, really.

[StyxCollector]

We know from subsequent interviews that TaTT was demoed as a candidate for the RTP live album and that EiC was originally written for DDY. Just speculating, of course, but it's interesting in retrospect. Clearly the band was struggling with putting the various demands of touring, writing, securing a label, side projects (Hunchback, DY/SB, etc) into a workable perspective while the new material kept slipping out in fits and starts rather than as a coherent project. Must have been frustrating for them -- as a fan, I know it was for me.

JY or DDY has also said TaTT was rejected, too (presumably by DDY). So I think the seeds were down then since DDY has always been (right or wrong) head general in the studio for Styx. He was envisioning a 1998 Styx record, and it didn't include that for whatever reason. So I'll agree with you that what came out was in fits and spurts but no one seemed to agree on the vision. Major problem.

According to TS, the work did at least start out in Chicago. I remember his first Note From The Band on the recording process of BNW (and the only one; another sign of trouble in paradise, to so speak) mentioning that Todd completed 9 or 10 drum tracks at DDY's place in late 1998, with the whole band in attendance.

I remember that - he was complaining about the cold. However, at some point, the camps went into their corners and never emerged for the next round. I wonder what the final FU was. We'll never know.

True. As long as we're in total fanboy mode and dwelling on the might-have-beens, I think a superproducer along the lines of Rick Rubin -- someone who could let the band's musical identity shine through while providing them with motivation, discipline, and a certain amount of "modern" credibility -- might have been a better choice than letting the considerable number of cooks in the Styx kitchen try to work things out for themselves. It's antithetical to the way they had become accustomed to making records, I know, but in the end it could have been the silver bullet. Ah, well.

100% agree. Let's face it, Charlie has done great things for them in terms of being a live act, but I don't see him as a guy terribly interested in them being in a studio or participating in that process. I think that pattern is evident the past 7 - 8 years. Rick RUbin may not work with Styx, but anyone - a Bruce Fairburn, Bob Ezrin, etc etc - someone who has a history of working with bands like STyx would have been the ticket. Someone who would call bullshit on both DDY and JY or Tommy. We don't know if DDY would have been open to it because my guess is the idea was never even brought up. Ron Nevison seems like an after the fact hire.

Good point. Sad, really.

Yeah. I mean, BNW may have still sucked, but it would have sucked less if they could have gotten their act together.

[Rockwriter]

So, after reading Sterling's last post, am I the only one who thinks that Dennis might still be in the band if CMC wasn't pushing so hard for a tour right away to promote BNW??
I know JY was fed up with Dennis, but if the pressure wasn't so strong to promote BNW couldn't "cooler heads" have prevailed?? Wouldn't it have been a BETTER financial decision on CMC's part for STYX to have FIXED BNW before releasing it? Would more people have purchased it if it had sounded more like a STYX album, even if that meant it would have been delayed a few months? Would more people have purchased BNW if they had just come from a Styx Concert (once again, that was delayed until Dennis felt better) promoting and playing songs from BNW in which DENNIS, JY, Tommy and Chuck had been on stage together?

Wouldn't hearing Dennis singing "Goodbye Roseland" live possibly have led to a few more BNW sales than hearing some Canadian Guy with Spinning Keyboards singing "Criminal Mind"???
I'm no Record Executive, but I can tell you when walking out of a Styx concert, the fans are going to be 10 times more likely to buy their new album on the way out if Dennis is on the cover instead of Larry Gowen.

Of course, It may have been too late anyway. JY and Tommy were fed up, But if you are CMC, doesn't it make sense to TRY and delay it and have it done right with the band that you signed? Which included Dennis?
What do you think Sterling? Am I way off on this?? Was there any hope back then of fixing this, or was it too far gone in your opinion?

Jimmy

WAY too far gone, in my view. This was an internal band decision that the record company got on board with, not one they forced on the band. You know, artists are going to do what artists are going to do, and it is a record company's job to market the results. This was the playing out of at least two decades' worth of issues, and a few months would have made no difference in the end. I think if they had, in fact, tried to "fix" the album, it simply would have resulted in things breaking down a few months later than they did. The spirit of compromise was absent from everyone at this point.


Sterling

[shaka]

I regret that I didn't get a pic of the Ice House before they tore it down. It was a Provo landmark and has a place in Styx history. The Ice House was a strange looking place and had the appearance of a turtle that had retracted it's body parts into it's shell.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635173984,00.html

Man looks like the roof would do good with a bunch of snow. Too bad they tore down another American landmark.

David

I remember wanting to ride my skateboard down the thing. To be honest the building was incredibly ugly so I don't think that anyone really misses it. Well, maybe JY. lol