OT: 22 dead in Va. Tech shooting rampage

[Playitloudforme]

This broke my heart today. I immediately thought of my 19 yr old in college up in Seattle. Last week there was a shooting at U-Dub. Just one guy and one girl, but one of Brian's best buddies goes there. I was on the phone in a nanosecond. Now this today.

Bottom line, anyone can go anywhere in this country with a frickin' gun and do whatever to anyone, and all we can do is react. Gaah. What makes someone snap like that? To make that kind of action feasible? I just don't get it. All the more reason to Verbalize the "I love you"s and give lots of hugs... ya never know.

[RossValoryRocks]

You are an ignorant dittohead. THE WAR IN IRAQ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTECTING AMERICANS. IT IS ABOUT OIL, GREED, AND MANIUPLATION. The war in Afghanistan was justified and absolutely the right thing to do. Except we should have gone in there and gotten that muderous bastard. W'S OWN FATHER SAID THAT STARTING A WAR IN IRAQ WAS UNWINNABLE AND FOOLISH.

Don't you lecture me about the Constitution, or American history. You have been brainwashed.

I respect you for heeding your country's call in the first Gulf war. I would have gladly given my life in Afghanistan, if it had helped catpure that sadistic bastard and bring him to justice. You don't know me, and I don't know you, so don't presume to make assumptions about my belief system or my "patriotism". You have been programmed by The Machine, and you can't help yourself.

You call me ignorant? You show your ingnorance with every word.

Firstly the discussion was about GUN CONTROL.

Second, show me your proof for what you say George H.W. Bush said.

Third I never said anything about your patriotism or lack thereof, I questioned your knowledge of history and the Constitution as it pertains to GUN CONTROL, and I will again and again until you come back with some kind of PROOF. It's how you win debates, but you can't because you have none.

Programmed huh? That's funny. I don't watch Fox, listen to Rush (Who is a fat blowhard btw), Sean Hannity or anything. I watch I read and I listen. I bet you have Air America and NPR blaring though huh?

[7 Wishes]

RVR, read Senior's book. It's right there in Chapter Three.

Out of respect for Andrew, I am going to allow you to wallow in your own crapulence and disengage before this gets out of hand. We disagree, to say the least. I find your comment about American lives being more valuable than Iraqui lives to be downright horrifying. However, I respect you for your belief system (other than that issue), and I thank you for heeding your country's call in 1991. Peace.

[Andrew]

Bye bye thread....

[whocares]

Bye bye thread....

it's actually disguting that this thread has gone to shit talking about Bush and the "war on terrorism". Why does everything have to turn political?

[styxman]

School children in Iraq, Black teenagers in London (on a monthly basis) and countless students in America, Scotland (Remember Dunblane), Australia and I could go on, have all died by the bullet, regardless of what views you have it's tragic. There's always gonna be unstable people and with easy availability of weapons, there's always going to be a disaster like this. Someone suggested banning Student Visas because he's an Asian student...It is possible he was an American Asian and besides that we live in a multicultural world and the vast majority of students that study abroad are upstanding citizens...............if we stopped playing the blame game and worked together, things just might improve a little.

[*Laura]

the gun is just a tool -- it is the individual who makes the decision to make it lethal. Someone with this guy's mentality could have run over a crowd of people too. Crazy people and criminals do not obey gun laws.

That is so true.You can have the most strict gun laws,it doesn't really matter if a lunatic really wants to harm people.He'll find a way to get a gun and accomplish his insane mission.

We never had such a blood bath here in my country and I pray it will never happen.Yes,bomb threats in schools,young people purchasing guns from the black market - that happens.
Our laws are extremely strict and one has to go through a lot of work and trouble to get a gun permit,but unfortunately,there are always illegal ways to get a weapon.

I just shiver at the thought that someone out there could just wake up one morning and decide that people must die.
That's the horryfing part - a murderer's mind.No law can control that.

[FinnFreak]

CNN.com QUICKVOTE:


Do you believe gun-control laws are an effective way to curb violence?

Yes 65% 1226 votes

No 35% 647 votes

Total: 1873 votes

This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein.


John -



Our sponsors do not recommend using their products with firearms.

[*Laura]

Just heard this morning that one of the victims of the shooting was a Romanian native professor.I am so shocked and saddened.

It's on Yahoo too...

"Among the dead were professors Liviu Librescu and Kevin Granata, said Ishwar K. Puri, the head of the engineering science and mechanics department. Librescu, an Israeli, was born in Romania and was known internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering."

The testimonies of the survivors are frightening...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

[FinnFreak]

I am so shocked and saddened.

Same here. That kind of mindless killing just leaves one staring at the TV with a lump in the throat & cemetery eyes...


John -

[Matthew]

Stay in Europe, with no physical way to protect yourself, as Europe is Islamified and in the end it will be convert or die.

Where are you getting your propoganda from, RVL?

I also suggest you actually LEARN your about your Constitution and the desire of the framers of to allow us to PROTECT ourselves. I am sure you will bring up the "It says militia" thing, so I suggest you read the Federalist papers. Madison who framed the Bill of Rights explictly says that the militia IS THE PEOPLE, all the people.

So give up your citizenship and head back to that bastion of stupidity called Europe.

RVL - you said earlier that the gun laws allow US citizens to intervene when a lunatic goes on the rampage. I'm curious - has a legally armed citizen ever stopped - say - a school massacre?

Also - I take your point that by making firearms illegal now the criminals would be armed and the ordinary citizen wouldn't be. Plus it would be like making drugs illegal. It just doesn't work.

But what I've never understood is....why is it unconstitutional for a gun shop to check whether or not a customer has a criminal record? I've read that such checks don't take place in Virginia.

Also - what's wrong with limiting the range of weapons available? Again - I don't know enough about this subject - but is it true that the Republican Party has blocked all attempts to limit the availability of machine guns or automatics or whatever theyre called? Isn't a handgun enough to protect yourself against evil-doers?

[Jeremey]

Our childbirth class is in Blacksburg every Monday & it was cancelled last night - The guy half of the couple who hosts/conducts it is an EMT in Blacksburg, so he had his hands full all night. Calling on customers all day here in Roanoke, it was clear everyone knew someone or was related to someone who either attends or works at VT. Quite a fucked up situation.

[Lady Luck]

Giving up the right to keep and bear arms is assinine, because once a right it given up, or in this case diminished, it is all but impossible to get back. And the CRIMINALS will STILL be able to get firearms. All you do is keep the upright and honest citizens from being able to protect themselves and their families.

I agree with this 100%.

[conversationpc]

Where are you getting your propoganda from, RVL?

I'm not sure what he's referring to but perhaps he's referring to situations like the riots of young Muslims in France. Who knows.

RVL - you said earlier that the gun laws allow US citizens to intervene when a lunatic goes on the rampage. I'm curious - has a legally armed citizen ever stopped - say - a school massacre?

I'm not sure about school massacres but, yes, armed citizens have stopped murderers before.

But what I've never understood is....why is it unconstitutional for a gun shop to check whether or not a customer has a criminal record? I've read that such checks don't take place in Virginia.

It's not unconstitutional. I'm not sure why some places don't have instant background checks, which is the way to go, in my opinion.

[Behshad]

Yes...American lives are worth more than Iraqi lives. THERE I SAID IT! I could give 2 shits about an the Iraqi people. I went and fought one war over there, so did Deano, and guess who was shooting at us? IRAQI'S!

What have YOU ever done you sanctimoniuous prick? Have you even picked up a weapon in defense of ANYTHING?

Stay in Europe, with no physical way to protect yourself, as Europe is Islamified and in the end it will be convert or die. But as a wise man once said "From my cold dead hands!"

I also suggest you actually LEARN your about your Constitution and the desire of the framers of to allow us to PROTECT ourselves. I am sure you will bring up the "It says militia" thing, so I suggest you read the Federalist papers. Madison who framed the Bill of Rights explictly says that the militia IS THE PEOPLE, all the people.

So give up your citizenship and head back to that bastion of stupidity called Europe.

You dont make any sense there. You say you went to Iraq in a war against them and you got shot by IRAQIS? DUH!? where the fuck is your brains dude? Who the fuck did you expect to shoot at you? Vietnamiese!??? Of course you will have Iraqis shoot at you when your in war with IRAQ. You just expect them to stand still while you shoot at them!??? Get a grip dude!
It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.
Youre thinking that we need guns to protect ourselves, but how come the crime and killing ratio is much much lower in europe than here? do you ever think that it has anything to do with how easy you can get a gun here?? What happend yesterday is a clear example of guns in the wrong hands. Im not saying we could just change things overnight and we'll all live happily ever after. I think if we have a more defined and strict law regarding who can or cant have guns, we may see a lower rate of this insanity shootings. But as long as we have people like you taking pride in thinking their superior to any other race, guns arent our biggest problems.

[conversationpc]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

[Behshad]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

Honroably!? with the comments he made? This isnt about what side of politics fence we are on. This is who we are. I also used to think that Stu was a hero , but he just brought himself down by those comments he made. Thats why I was not only pissed but also disspointed and surprised at the same time.

[conversationpc]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

Honroably!? with the comments he made? This isnt about what side of politics fence we are on. This is who we are. I also used to think that Stu was a hero , but he just brought himself down by those comments he made. Thats why I was not only pissed but also disspointed and surprised at the same time.

Unless you have evidence that he didn't serve honorably, your comments are disgraceful.

[Matthew]

I'm not sure what he's referring to but perhaps he's referring to situations like the riots of young Muslims in France. Who knows.

Well, the lack of gun control didn't help your citizens protect themselves against 9/11. Much as the illegality of weapons in Britain and Spain didn't make any difference when our railway stations were blown up.

These attacks in Europe - I might add - were aimed at the countries in Europe who were fighting alongside the US in the Middle East - and whose soldiers have sacrificed their lives too. So RVL - and others here - might like to get their Atlas out and remember Europe isn't just some homogonous land-mass.

I'm not sure about school massacres but, yes, armed citizens have stopped murderers before.

Okay - what about other massacres in the US? Say the shootings in McDonald's and so on? Is there any information that would support the view that the free availability of guns in the US is an effective method of crime prevention? On the face of it...it seems that it isn't...given that the US is one of the most violent countries in the world...but maybe I'm wrong to think this?

It's not unconstitutional. I'm not sure why some places don't have instant background checks, which is the way to go, in my opinion.

I agree, Dave. But the NRA seems to wield enormous power in Washington and there must be some constitutional justification they're making.

[conversationpc]

Well, the lack of gun control didn't help your citizens protect themselves against 9/11. Much as the illegality of weapons in Britain and Spain didn't make any difference when our railways were blown up.

I'm not sure what the heck this has to do with gun control. They are two totally separate issues.

Okay - what about other massacres in the US? Say the shootings in McDonald's and so on? Is there any information that would support the view that the free availability of guns in the US is an effective method of crime prevention? On the face of it...it seems that it isn't...given that the US is one of the most violent countries in the world...but maybe I'm wrong to think this?

I don't have a particular study in front of me at the moment but I have heard and read that, with areas were concealed carry permits are legal for instance, crime has gone down. It makes sense to me that criminals would think twice about committing gun crimes if they knew that a large percentage of the citizenry was armed but I haven't confirmed that.

[Behshad]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

Honroably!? with the comments he made? This isnt about what side of politics fence we are on. This is who we are. I also used to think that Stu was a hero , but he just brought himself down by those comments he made. Thats why I was not only pissed but also disspointed and surprised at the same time.

Unless you have evidence that he didn't serve honorably, your comments are disgraceful.

JUST THE FACT THAT HE SAID AMERICAN LIVES ARE WORTH MORE THAN IRAQIS is enough for me.

[conversationpc]

JUST THE FACT THAT HE SAID AMERICAN LIVES ARE WORTH MORE THAN IRAQIS is enough for me.

I'm assuming you're an American. If you are and you don't care more about your fellow Americans than you do for others, I think that's highly shameful. Citizens of ANY country SHOULD care more about their own people than they do others. Regardless, what he said that you're so upset with has nothing to do with his previous service to our country.

As a side note, could you reduce the size of that avatar? It's much too big and I'm sure Andrew probably doesn't much appreciate it.

[RossValoryRocks]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

Honroably!? with the comments he made? This isnt about what side of politics fence we are on. This is who we are. I also used to think that Stu was a hero , but he just brought himself down by those comments he made. Thats why I was not only pissed but also disspointed and surprised at the same time.

Unless you have evidence that he didn't serve honorably, your comments are disgraceful.

JUST THE FACT THAT HE SAID AMERICAN LIVES ARE WORTH MORE THAN IRAQIS is enough for me.

They are. PERIOD. I joined the Marines to protect AMERICAN LIVES, property and freedoms which are worth more to me than any Iraqi life. Ask a veteran of WW2 or Korea or Vietnam if they think an American life is worth more than the life of their enemies and see what answer you get.
Now if you want to call me dishonorable then do it to my face, I will be in Virgina for the show in May. And at LEAST I had the balls to go and serve my country. Have you?

[Matthew]

I'm not sure what the heck this has to do with gun control. They are two totally separate issues.

It came up because Stu said that we have no means to protect ourselves in an Islamicized Europe.

I don't have a particular study in front of me at the moment but I have heard and read that, with areas were concealed carry permits are legal for instance, crime has gone down. It makes sense to me that criminals would think twice about committing gun crimes if they knew that a large percentage of the citizenry was armed but I haven't confirmed that.

I guess this issue is similar to that regarding the death penalty. Are criminals less likely to commit crime if the gas chamber awaits? My own view on gun crime and the death penalty is that most violent criminals are either professionals/organised or simply insane and out of control. And I'd argue that both types aren't held back by the consequences of their actions.

[Behshad]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

Honroably!? with the comments he made? This isnt about what side of politics fence we are on. This is who we are. I also used to think that Stu was a hero , but he just brought himself down by those comments he made. Thats why I was not only pissed but also disspointed and surprised at the same time.

Unless you have evidence that he didn't serve honorably, your comments are disgraceful.

JUST THE FACT THAT HE SAID AMERICAN LIVES ARE WORTH MORE THAN IRAQIS is enough for me.

They are. PERIOD. I joined the Marines to protect AMERICAN LIVES, property and freedoms which are worth more to me than any Iraqi life. Ask a veteran of WW2 or Korea or Vietnam if they think an American life is worth more than the life of their enemies and see what answer you get.
Now if you want to call me dishonorable then do it to my face, I will be in Virgina for the show in May. And at LEAST I had the balls to go and serve my country. Have you?

If its all about having the balls to just go kill people with your attitude, Im glad to say no, and I will never have the balls to sink that low to put down people just cause they were born in a different part of the world.
And when it comes to the Gulf war, you didnt go there to protect AMERICAN lives,,,, you went there to protect Kuwaiti peoples lives from Saddam. Which in this case means you were there, risking your own american life, for people of Kuwait? so do you think that their lives are worth more than american peoples!?
Bottom line is, you cant grade peoples lives based on their origin. there are low lives in every continent/country/state/city/neighbourhood.

[Matthew]

And when it comes to the Gulf war, you didnt go there to protect AMERICAN lives,,,, you went there to protect Kuwaiti peoples lives from Saddam. Which in this case means you were there, risking your own american life, for people of Kuwait? so do you think that their lives are worth more than american peoples!?

Good point....

[X factor]

RVR, read Senior's book. It's right there in Chapter Three.

Out of respect for Andrew, I am going to allow you to wallow in your own crapulence and disengage before this gets out of hand. We disagree, to say the least. I find your comment about American lives being more valuable than Iraqui lives to be downright horrifying. However, I respect you for your belief system (other than that issue), and I thank you for heeding your country's call in 1991. Peace.

Seven, I believe you just used the word "crapulence" in a post!!! Awesome!
But in all seriousness, you hit the nail on the head in one area. It's a time where emotions are running incredibly high, and to step back and call a truce show's me alot about your character, man!

I work in higher education, and I don't know if I'll ever feel the same after this. It's downright horrifying to think that this young man couldv'e snapped so far as to do this. But we have to answer the question of "what next?" In situations such as this, that is always the question that should be at the forefront. THe only answer I have is what we SHOULDN'T do- we shouldn't start playing the blame game- we don't need to pull every gun out of every home and hand, and we certainly don't need to "ban student visa's" (whoever came up with that bright idea), and , sorry Dean, we don't need to blame God. I wish I knew what to do on the larger spectrum of this, to help the families of the deseased. I'll leave that to the locals and their families, and merely say a prayer for them as often as I can. But perhaps, if nothing else, we could look inward and try to be better people ourselves. Sometimes it's the smallest act of kindness that does the most good. I have very little control of the larger scope of events in this world (which, as we all know, can be monumentally frustrating in times like these) but I DO have control over what I do and how I behave. Perhaps I can show forgiveness where I didn't before, or try not to belittle someone with a different belief system, or help someone less fortunate. Is this gonna reverse this tragedy and bring these people back to life? No, but maybe it just MIGHT help make the world a better place for mine and your children to grow up in.

[RossValoryRocks]

It really pisses me of when we have people like you serving our country. I take pride in people who put their heart and soul in protecting our country, but they cant all be like you . At least I hope theyre not.

As far as I know, Stu has served honorably. I can't believe someone here would say something this stupid, regardless of what side of the political fence you're on.

Honroably!? with the comments he made? This isnt about what side of politics fence we are on. This is who we are. I also used to think that Stu was a hero , but he just brought himself down by those comments he made. Thats why I was not only pissed but also disspointed and surprised at the same time.

Unless you have evidence that he didn't serve honorably, your comments are disgraceful.

JUST THE FACT THAT HE SAID AMERICAN LIVES ARE WORTH MORE THAN IRAQIS is enough for me.

They are. PERIOD. I joined the Marines to protect AMERICAN LIVES, property and freedoms which are worth more to me than any Iraqi life. Ask a veteran of WW2 or Korea or Vietnam if they think an American life is worth more than the life of their enemies and see what answer you get.
Now if you want to call me dishonorable then do it to my face, I will be in Virgina for the show in May. And at LEAST I had the balls to go and serve my country. Have you?

If its all about having the balls to just go kill people with your attitude, Im glad to say no, and I will never have the balls to sink that low to put down people just cause they were born in a different part of the world.
And when it comes to the Gulf war, you didnt go there to protect AMERICAN lives,,,, you went there to protect Kuwaiti peoples lives from Saddam. Which in this case means you were there, risking your own american life, for people of Kuwait? so do you think that their lives are worth more than american peoples!?
Bottom line is, you cant grade peoples lives based on their origin. there are low lives in every continent/country/state/city/neighbourhood.

No I was protecting American interests, in this case the sovereignty of the Kuwaiti people. But I joined to protect American lives and your rights. It's not about having the balls to kill people you idiot. NO SANE person ever wants to kill another person, it haunts you for the rest of your life. But when it comes down to it, I care more about 1 American life than I care about 100 lives from any other country because THIS IS MY COUNTRY and YOU and EVERYONE ELSE are my people and it is my DUTY.

[conversationpc]

I guess this issue is similar to that regarding the death penalty. Are criminals less likely to commit crime if the gas chamber awaits? My own view on gun crime and the death penalty is that most violent criminals are either professionals/organised or simply insane and out of control. And I'd argue that both types aren't held back by the consequences of their actions.

I support the death penalty as PUNISHMENT for a crime, not because it may or may not be a deterrant to a crime.

[Matthew]

I guess this issue is similar to that regarding the death penalty. Are criminals less likely to commit crime if the gas chamber awaits? My own view on gun crime and the death penalty is that most violent criminals are either professionals/organised or simply insane and out of control. And I'd argue that both types aren't held back by the consequences of their actions.

I support the death penalty as PUNISHMENT for a crime, not because it may or may not be a deterrant to a crime.

That's very Old Testament of you, Dave.

I can understand the desire for vengeance - but equally I feel uncomfortable with the State sinking to the level of a mobster.