OT: 22 dead in Va. Tech shooting rampage

[Matthew]

That's very Old Testament of you, Dave.

I can understand the desire for vengeance - but equally I feel uncomfortable with the State sinking to the level of a mobster.

There's nothing wrong with inflicting punishment for a crime. There nothing "mobster-ish" about it. That's the way it's supposed to work. You commit a crime. You get punished for it. It has nothing to do with the Old Testament, New Testament, or whatever testament.

BTW, that first comment is pretty unnecessary.

I know we've been going off track here...but I just quickly wanted to say that I agree that crimes must be punished, Dave. We just disagree on the methods, I guess. I support life imprisonment for murder. But to me it does seem mobsterish to actually kill someone to 'even the score'. And I don't believe a government should ever be given the right to kill its own citizens.

Sorry if you felt that my first comment was out of order. I meant 'an eye for an eye' etc.

Dave - just curious about the whole concept of forgiveness. As a Christian do you believe that a murderer forfeits the right to forgiveness? I've never quite understood where the line is drawn.

Anyway...I'll stick to the topic too from now on.

[conversationpc]

I know we've been going off track here...but I just quickly wanted to say that I agree that crimes must be punished, Dave. We just disagree on the methods, I guess. I support life imprisonment for murder. But to me it does seem mobsterish to actually kill someone to 'even the score'. And I don't believe a government should ever be given the right to kill its own citizens.

Sorry if you felt that my first comment was out of order. I meant 'an eye for an eye' etc.

Don't worry about it. I'm over it and probably was just being a bit too "prickly" to begin with.

Dave - just curious about the whole concept of forgiveness. As a Christian do you believe that a murderer forfeits the right to forgiveness? I've never quite understood where the line is drawn.

As a Christian, I certainly am commanded by Christ to forgive and I should. Could I forgive someone like this guy in Virginia if he killed one of my family members? I can't imagine that I could. That would have to certainly be a miracle of God in my life to be able to do that, but it is possible.

However, that's separate from the government's responsibility to punish wrongdoers. Jesus commanded his followers to forgive but he also said something along the lines of "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's." I'm not a theological expert, so forgive my poor use of language if that doesn't convey my meaning very well.

[Rockindeano]

Fuck that, Euro. Life in prison? Oh ok. I'll tell you what.

If someone kills my son, daughter. twins or Lula, I will take the law into my own hands. There will be no life in prison because the perp will be dead. End of story.

You people are the problem in the world...not the towel heads, camel jockies, carpet pilots, yard apes, rappers, racist reverends, Loons, or even right winger nut jobs...The Euros are the main problem in this fucked up world(and W too. he is always part of the problem, if not THE problem).

[Matthew]

Fuck that, Euro. Life in prison? Oh ok. I'll tell you what.

If someone kills my son, daughter. twins or Lula, I will take the law into my own hands. There will be no life in prison because the perp will be dead. End of story.

You people are the problem in the world...not the towel heads, camel jockies, carpet pilots, yard apes, rappers, racist reverends, Loons, or even right winger nut jobs...The Euros are the main problem in this fucked up world(and W too. he is always part of the problem, if not THE problem).

Deano - you sound amazingly drunk tonight.

[conversationpc]

Fuck that, Euro. Life in prison? Oh ok. I'll tell you what.

If someone kills my son, daughter. twins or Lula, I will take the law into my own hands. There will be no life in prison because the perp will be dead. End of story.

You people are the problem in the world...not the towel heads, camel jockies, carpet pilots, yard apes, rappers, racist reverends, Loons, or even right winger nut jobs...The Euros are the main problem in this fucked up world(and W too. he is always part of the problem, if not THE problem).

Deano - you sound amazingly drunk tonight.

And that's different from normal?

[Rockindeano]

Fuck you Dave. Fuck you right in your right wing asshole.

I haven't had a drink yet. Will now.

You think you are more sophisticated and better person than me? Go fuck yourself and go straight to Hell.

[7 Wishes]

You, sir,are TALKING to a Eurotrash!

Deano, Europeans are part of the solution, not the problem. The problem is ultra-sensitive, card-carrying ACLU hypocrites, and even more so, the Southern and Midwestern constituency of the conservative (Republican) party. Over-the-top liberals like Jesse Jackson ensure that mass murderers can get away with their crimes because of a procedural technicality, and the right-wing nutjobs I'm surrounded by in this bastion of ignorance and incredullity are the ones who have created the culture of hatred, bigotry. fear, and repression.

[Rockindeano]

Admit it dude. Euros suck. All of them

[Andrew]

Fuck you Dave. Fuck you right in your right wing asshole.

I haven't had a drink yet. Will now.

You think you are more sophisticated and better person than me? Go fuck yourself and go straight to Hell.

Deano Deano Deano...

Euro's are the problem? Get a grip man! Agree with ya on Big W though...

[Rockindeano]

Fuck you Dave. Fuck you right in your right wing asshole.

I haven't had a drink yet. Will now.

You think you are more sophisticated and better person than me? Go fuck yourself and go straight to Hell.

Deano Deano Deano...

Euro's are the problem? Get a grip man! Agree with ya on Big W though...

Yes, they are the problem....along with certain Camel strokers and as well as that fucker at Vatech yesterday...Hong Kong Fuey, or whatever the fuck his name was.

[7 Wishes]

Number of deaths from firearms for every 1,000,000 people in the following countries in 2003:

• United States: 41

• Canada: 5.1

• England and Wales: 0.3

• Japan: 0.3

[Rockindeano]

Number of deaths from firearms for every 1,000,000 people in the following countries in 2003:

• United States: 41

• Canada: 5.1

• England and Wales: 0.3

• Japan: 0.3

Wow. I am on your side here dude. This NRA shit is ridiculous. There is no need AT ALL for a fucking semi-automatic or an automatic rifle OR hand held weapon. The good ol boys of the Republican party will argue that they are indeed needed. Translated= the Colt Industries Co. needs something to build...so they build semi automatic weapons.....to hunt with. yup, that's the description they say their guns are for.

Now I will say this. i would have NO problem keeping a 22 cal pistol in my home to protect my family. I have been robbed before and did engage the robber. he had a mini baseball souvenir bat, and I ?...yep, a Koho hockey stick. I won that one. He ran away, but no one got harmed in the house.

[7 Wishes]

Would you have used a Cleon Daskalasis Bauer goalie stick if you'd had one on hand? That'd be my weapon of choice against a Louisville slugger-wielding maniac.

[Andrew]

This tradgedy has even re-started the gun debate here, with more pressure coming now to again tighten our laws even FURTHER!!! Just to be sure something doesn't happen here again.

So sad that my home town carries the world record for worst ever massacre

[7 Wishes]

Eddie Vedder will be singing for Journey before any Republican allows any real debate on gun control to occur.

[Rockindeano]

Eddie Vedder will be singing for Journey before any Republican allows any real debate on gun control to occur.

No. I will start the Mother of all blogs to prevent that

[cookieduster]

Now is the time to get a gun if you want one, who knows what the future holds. Drug laws have done very little, you can still get them-more crack heads now than ever. People even feeding them to their little toddlers. Gun laws will protect the criminals, but agree with those of you about the automatic weapons=no need!!! Even a car is a weapon, you could rent a big Penske truck and drive through a crowded outdoor event, there is no protection from whackos.

p.s. there should be longer waiting periods and no one needs an automatic pistol-they are made to kill people, plain and simple.

[Rockindeano]

Hell, Airplanes are weapons nowadays.

[Rick]

Hell, Airplanes are weapons nowadays.

Now that was a bad day at my job.

[brandonx76]

At least that's the rumour...my buddy reported it to the news a few hours ago...Hmm..has no friends..

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =104576169

[Rockindeano]

At least that's the rumour...my buddy reported it to the news a few hours ago...Hmm..has no friends..

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =104576169

Schools must not be that good in Virginia. This guy spells like Abitaman for Christs' sake.

[Lady Luck]

At least that's the rumour...my buddy reported it to the news a few hours ago...Hmm..has no friends..

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =104576169

They said on the news last night that some of the writings he did for his English degree were violent. One teacher even requested he be removed from her class because he was intimidating other students, photographing them, and writing violet poetry.

[Matthew]

Number of deaths from firearms for every 1,000,000 people in the following countries in 2003:

• United States: 41

• Canada: 5.1

• England and Wales: 0.3

• Japan: 0.3

Here are some other statistics from today's Independent newspaper in London:


"29,000 people are killed by firearms in the USA every year - 10 times as many as died on September 11.

11,000 are murdered.

Fewer than one per cent of American homicides occur as a direct result of self-defence.[b]

17,000 use a gun to commit suicide.

1,000 die in accidents.

Every day three children under 19 die from a gun wound.

Across the country, roughly 1,000 crimes involving firearms are committed every 24 hours.

The gun population of the USA is roughly equal to its 300 million human one. Supply thus outstrips any conceivable demand. Even if there was genuine public will for strict gun control, it is simply too late."

[SteveForever]

At least that's the rumour...my buddy reported it to the news a few hours ago...Hmm..has no friends..

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =104576169

They said on the news last night that some of the writings he did for his English degree were violent. One teacher even requested he be removed from her class because he was intimidating other students, photographing them, and writing violet poetry.

So why didn't she report him to some kind of authority?! if someone is voicing it-especially in a public forum, hello------oooooo!!! Another teacher said he went by instead of his name.

[ohsherrie]

At least that's the rumour...my buddy reported it to the news a few hours ago...Hmm..has no friends..

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =104576169

They said on the news last night that some of the writings he did for his English degree were violent. One teacher even requested he be removed from her class because he was intimidating other students, photographing them, and writing violet poetry.

So why didn't she report him to some kind of authority?! if someone is voicing it-especially in a public forum, hello------oooooo!!! Another teacher said he went by instead of his name.

She did SF. She was told that they couldn't do anything about it because there was no direct threat towards anyone. They also said they couldn't report any of his disturbing behavior to his parents because of privacy laws.

[Behshad]

When I first mentioned we need more strict gun laws, I think some missunderstood me, thinking I meant we shouldnt be allowed to have guns at all.

With strict gun laws , I mean, the process of buying and owning a gun should take a bit longer than buyin a pack of smokes. They should take all your info and send it in and review every aspect before a final "approval". This will not solve the problem completely, but will reduce the chance of lunatics owning a gun and shooting innocent people. I bet some of these people would change their mind during the 4 weeks they would have to wait till theyre approved to purchase a gun.

Also when it comes to using guns as protection and our rights, most of the times when a criminal attacks with the gun, he/she is the only one in that situation having the gun.
You guys all say you want a gun in your closet to protect your family from the bad guys, but 9 out of 10 times you get attacked, youre just a tad away from your closet. And since youre not allowed to carry your gun with you on the street where most crimes happens anyways, what good does it do to have the right to have the damn gun in your closet when you cant use it when you need it the most? The bad guy "wins" 9 out of 10 times. Lets say half of the people that were killed Monday had a gun . Did it help them ?

We cant fight crime and criminal minds to the point where they dont exist, but with more strict weapon laws, we can at least reduce the chances of guns in wrong hands.

[SteveForever]

At least that's the rumour...my buddy reported it to the news a few hours ago...Hmm..has no friends..

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =104576169

They said on the news last night that some of the writings he did for his English degree were violent. One teacher even requested he be removed from her class because he was intimidating other students, photographing them, and writing violet poetry.

So why didn't she report him to some kind of authority?! if someone is voicing it-especially in a public forum, hello------oooooo!!! Another teacher said he went by instead of his name.

She did SF. She was told that they couldn't do anything about it because there was no direct threat towards anyone. They also said they couldn't report any of his disturbing behavior to his parents because of privacy laws.

Oh.

[Matthew]

You guys all say you want a gun in your closet to protect your family from the bad guys, but 9 out of 10 times you get attacked, youre just a tad away from your closet.

Exactly - and the statistic I read today bears this out. Only 1 per cent of homicides are in self-defence.

[ohsherrie]

I've avoided this gun control debate because I don't actually have the answer and without one it just becomes a never-ending and sometimes hostile argument. I certainly don't think anyone should be able to walk into a store on any corner or into one of those atrocious gun trading shows and pick up a gun, let alone a semi-automatic weapon that with an easily obtained conversion kit can be made fully automatic. I personally would have no problem with a total enforced ban on the sale or manufacture of anything other than strictly single shot mechanisms. However, there are many absurd arguments from many quarters that think the human race is in need of semi-automatic weapons.

Can someone tell me why it's harder to get a drivers license than a gun. Shouldn't anyone wanting to own and operate a firearm have to meet at least a comparable standard of handling competence as someone who wants to drive a car and have a license to do so? You can't become a law officer, or even a teacher in some states, without being fingerprinted and photographed for a thorough background check. Why shouldn't there be Federal Law requiring all people who apply for gun ownership to have to be photographed and fingerprinted then checked through a National database to verify their identification and record? That sort of speaks to the old saw of "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will own guns". Right now it harder for a law officer to get one that a lunatic.

When those students in the gun club at Tech said they could have stopped that kid if they had been allowed to have their weapons on campus I shuddered at the thought. I honestly had scenes of the gunfight at the OK Corral in my head. There has to be a civilized and rational middle ground somewhere between such anarchy as that and total disarmament. I just wish the human race would show some signs of being civilized and rational enough to find it.

[RossValoryRocks]

When I first mentioned we need more strict gun laws, I think some missunderstood me, thinking I meant we shouldnt be allowed to have guns at all.

With strict gun laws , I mean, the process of buying and owning a gun should take a bit longer than buyin a pack of smokes. They should take all your info and send it in and review every aspect before a final "approval". This will not solve the problem completely, but will reduce the chance of lunatics owning a gun and shooting innocent people. I bet some of these people would change their mind during the 4 weeks they would have to wait till theyre approved to purchase a gun.

Also when it comes to using guns as protection and our rights, most of the times when a criminal attacks with the gun, he/she is the only one in that situation having the gun.
You guys all say you want a gun in your closet to protect your family from the bad guys, but 9 out of 10 times you get attacked, youre just a tad away from your closet. And since youre not allowed to carry your gun with you on the street where most crimes happens anyways, what good does it do to have the right to have the damn gun in your closet when you cant use it when you need it the most? The bad guy "wins" 9 out of 10 times. Lets say half of the people that were killed Monday had a gun . Did it help them ?

We cant fight crime and criminal minds to the point where they dont exist, but with more strict weapon laws, we can at least reduce the chances of guns in wrong hands.

Holy shit! I agree with 99% of what you say here! The only thing you are wrong about is carrying a firearm. Many states have a concealed carry law. I carry almost 100% of the time. Then again I am also trained in the proper use of a firearm.

There shoud be a waiting period, the backround checks should be extensive and probably should include a psychological interview as well.

But to ban guns? Never.

The second amendment is in the Constitution for ONE reason, so the people (that us) can protect ourselves...be it from criminals, but probably most importantly from our government when it goes too far.

The Federalist Papers are an interesting read. You can read exactly what (some of) the Founding Fathers were thinking and the reasoning behind each of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights. Especially Madison and (I believe, I need to double check) Monroe who were esentially the drafters of the Bill of Rights.