OT: The sad state of rock...

[strangegrey]

A band like Rush is definitely the exception here – able to keep the same personnel for decades and still make fresh music.

Argh!!!!

Nothing is fresh about anything Rush does!

[Red13JoePa]

They're OK, but I wouldn't call Tom Sawyer, one of their monster hits, fresh when they got the music from Journey.

[MartyMoffatt]

They're OK, but I wouldn't call Tom Sawyer, one of their monster hits, fresh when they got the music from Journey.

Hmm... Tom Sawyer is over 25 years old. I've heard the argument that it was stolen from Journey, but having listened to the two side by side there is just a passing similarity to part of the riff. It's possible the idea for that part came from Journey, who knows, but then tell me anybody that isn't influenced by somebody else. And in a catalogue spanning 30+ years and nearly as many albums, one song that sounds marginally like another song isn't reason enough to dismiss the entire band.

Marty

[Red13JoePa]

Then the author of the liner notes of Time3 MAY have less than truthful?

I wasn't dismissing the entire band at all. There IS minor irony that one of their hits may or may not have been built around a schon/Rolie motif. And that ain't fresh.

Although I do agree w/ Matthew's finding that overall Rush's sound is pretty "fresh" even though I'm not that interested in anything other than the Roll THe Bones album.

[X factor]

A band like Rush is definitely the exception here – able to keep the same personnel for decades and still make fresh music.

Argh!!!!

Nothing is fresh about anything Rush does!

They seem to be trying awfully hard to sound like TOOL these days, to me.

[MartyMoffatt]

Then the author of the liner notes of Time3 MAY have less than truthful?

I wasn't dismissing the entire band at all. There IS minor irony that one of their hits may or may not have been built around a schon/Rolie motif. And that ain't fresh.

Although I do agree w/ Matthew's finding that overall Rush's sound is pretty "fresh" even though I'm not that interested in anything other than the Roll THe Bones album.

Which illustrates my point in comparing a band like Rush with a band like AC/DC. You may not like everything they've done but you can recognise different styles or periods in their career. That to me indicates their desire to change/progress/freshen their sound.

A band like AC/DC on the other hand (and I do like them, especially live) have settled on one style and have basically just produced variations on a theme for album after album. If you heard an AC/DC song you would be very hard pushed to recognise whether it was written last year or 20 years ago.

Marty

[Deb]

Don’t forget that most of these bands have been around for 25-30 years old, sometimes even longer. Very few marriages last that long, let alone groups of 4-5 individuals, each with their own egos and careers. Rappers have only been around a few years. Let’s see how well they get on with each other after a few more years, and when they aren’t having money thrown at them for doing next to nothing.

Very true Marty. Also, these rappers don't tour (hard) like the classic rock bands used to. So they don't have that being around each other 24/7 for months on end factor to deal with either.

[MartyMoffatt]

To continue with the theme of this thread, I think part of the problem for the decline in this genre is that radio stations and promoters don’t want to hear new music from older bands. They already have a captive audience with established fans of those bands and don’t want to take risks with their cash cows. Instead they will play just the music that made those people fans in the first place.

The music establishment would rather spend their resources chasing the larger but more fickle market of younger music lovers. They in turn want to hear something new – anything, as long as it’s different to what their parents listened to – that they can identify with and call their own. It’s a constant conveyor belt, and the focus is only on those stepping onto the conveyor belt. Talent and quality of music doesn't even enter into the process.

In a way it isn’t the bands that have become marginalised. It is us, the fans.

Marty

[conversationpc]

A band like Rush is definitely the exception here – able to keep the same personnel for decades and still make fresh music.

Argh!!!!

Nothing is fresh about anything Rush does!

Rush has evolved over the years AND taken risks with their music, something most bands don't do at all or very well. Personally, I didn't care very much for the last studio album, "Vapor Trails", but I still give them credit.

[Matthew]

No, that's actually from the first half of Season 6. It was during Tony Soprano's recovery in the hospital...

Great! I'm about to watch episodes 2 and 3 of Season 6 tonight...so I'll get to that one soon no doubt. Can't wait.

We all grasp things differently from our music...and somepeople gravitate to the bombastic arogance that Roth carried around with VH during his time in the band....personally, I found it offensive....and when Sammy joined the group, I was able to discover Eddie's playing.

It's funny...I've always felt unmoved by Hagar's down-to-earth, working man, blue collar schtick. It seems every bit as phoney as Roth's theatrics. But I actually prefer Hagar's voice...

John Sykes, who came in to fill in the last few solos on the Slide It In Record....He was largely relplacing Moody & Marsden, if I recall....ironic that he was given his same walking papers very shortly into the recording of Whitesnake:Whitesnake. John actually recorded the majority of the album after getting fired, but trudged on knowing someone else would do it and he felt it would be better off doing it himself. Good chap that he is!

God...I'd forgotten about Moody and Marsden. Moody was the one with the trademarkmark waistcoat I seem to remember.

I didn't know that Sykes was fired before the '87 album was even finished. Yes, what a good egg he was! Sykes is fronting Thin Lizzy now, isn't he? Is he any good? Sounds a bit sad to me...

But Coverdale *is* rumored to be a real dick to work with. However, I will add, that one of the reasons I've brought him up...is that he really appears to have matured over the past 20 years. The current incarnation of whitesnake (save for Mendoza's departure) seems to have remained intact for what seems like 5-7 years. That's coming up on a record for Coverdale. Regardless, the current lineup of whitesnake, in my opinion, is about the best lineup the band has had. They're doing the right things right now, they all get along...they're doing right by the fans. So to that end, they're in my good graces. i.e. Coverdale seems to have gotten past the petty bullshit that STILL plagues alot of current bands.

Who's in Whitesnake now? And are they releasing albums? I've totally lost track of them over the years - even though I used to be a big fan of Coverdale's.

[Matthew]

I dunno if Sykes was brought in as solely a looker. The guy clearly brought a new level of musicality to the band...and for 1987, Sykes' tone was about as Modern and cutting edge as you can get.

Yes, you're right. Sykes was such a hot property as a guitarist in the mid-80s and he did great work on the last Thin Lizzy album too...which was surprising full-on and heavy.

I will add that I do believe Vivian Campbell *was* brought in as a visual stand in...because early on into the 87 tour, Coverdale was just ITCHING to fire Viv. They aparently saw nothing in common with eachother, from a musical standpoint....and I remember, even during the 87 tour, reading interviews with Coverdale where he would complain to no end about how much of a musically inept dipshit Vivian Campbell was.

Musically inept? This is the same guy who was completely on fire on Dio's Holy Diver album! Admittedly he hasn't done anything exciting since and Def Leppard are a shockingly bad rock group...but back in '83 Campbell was just as modern and as cutting edge as Sykes was...possibly more so, don't you think?

[strangegrey]

Who's in Whitesnake now? And are they releasing albums? I've totally lost track of them over the years - even though I used to be a big fan of Coverdale's.

They are aparently working on a new album as I type this...and Coverdale has reported "erect nipples" over how it's coming out.

They also just released a live double CD back inthe fall with 4 new tracks....and all 4 tracks smoke!

[Matthew]

I'm not that interested in anything other than the Roll THe Bones album.

Why that one in particular, Red? You seriously prefer it to - say - Moving Pictures, Signals or Hold Your Fire?

[Matthew]

[Coverdale has reported "erect nipples" over how it's coming out.

Thanks for the info, Strangegrey.

[Matthew]

To continue with the theme of this thread, I think part of the problem for the decline in this genre is that radio stations and promoters don’t want to hear new music from older bands. They already have a captive audience with established fans of those bands and don’t want to take risks with their cash cows. Instead they will play just the music that made those people fans in the first place.

The music establishment would rather spend their resources chasing the larger but more fickle market of younger music lovers. They in turn want to hear something new – anything, as long as it’s different to what their parents listened to – that they can identify with and call their own. It’s a constant conveyor belt, and the focus is only on those stepping onto the conveyor belt. Talent and quality of music doesn't even enter into the process.

In a way it isn’t the bands that have become marginalised. It is us, the fans.

Marty

But Marty...how interested are most old dogs like us in anything new? I'm not sure that it's true that there's millions of greybeards out there who are hungry for new music and who are being starved by a youth-obsessed record labels.

I don't know about you..but the older I get the more my daily playlist starts to resemble the ones I had as a teenager. I couldn't really care less what bands of my generation are doing now. The music is rarely any good...certainly compared to the classic releases from twenty years ago.

Although I admit that both Rush and Journey can still put on a great live show....

[conversationpc]

Who's in Whitesnake now? And are they releasing albums? I've totally lost track of them over the years - even though I used to be a big fan of Coverdale's.

Coverdale is my all-time favorite singers but I don't really listen to Whitesnake that much, to tell the truth. Anyway, other than Coverdale, I think it's Reb Beach (Winger & Dokken) on guitar, Timothy Drury on keyboards, Doug Aldrich (Dio, Hurricane, etc.) on guitar, Uriah Duffy on bass, and Tommy Aldridge on drums.

[MartyMoffatt]

I don't know about you..but the older I get the more my daily playlist starts to resemble the ones I had as a teenager. I couldn't really care less what bands of my generation are doing now. The music is rarely any good...certainly compared to the classic releases from twenty years ago.

Actually, three albums on my playlist right now are new albums from Talisman, Danny Vaughn and Thunder which are every bit as good as anything they've ever done before. I'm also really looking forward to the new Rush album next week.

By contrast, I rarely listen to old albums from Black Sabbath, Whitesnake or Deep Purple the way I used to. I do agree that new music from old bands is often uninspired, but it depends on whether or not they still have the fire to produce genuinely new music and not just rehashes of their hits.

Marty

[NoMoreTails]

Musically inept? This is the same guy who was completely on fire on Dio's Holy Diver album! Admittedly he hasn't done anything exciting since and Def Leppard are a shockingly bad rock group...but back in '83 Campbell was just as modern and as cutting edge as Sykes was...possibly more so, don't you think?

I think Viv's still a very good guitarist, the only reason I've been interest in Def Lep at all for the last 15 years or so,
the Riverdogs album from 91 or 92 is his best work imo. I like the blues element that he's added post Dio/Whitesake. On the other hand, Coverdale was very high on Adrian Vandenburg who's done almost nothing of note in his career other than co-writing the WS Slip of the Tongue album. Coverdale always chooses one guy to favor, not willing to entertain Campbell's ideas for new material, now everything is written with Aldrich and nothing with Beach...I suppose he feels Aldrich has the bluesy rock vibe that was the WS foundation.

Regarding Hagar I recently heard Bob & Tom, nationally syndicated radio morning show, say he is the most real and genuine rock star they've encountered and the same guy during and post VH that he was in the 70s. Sammy has always seemed what you see is what you get to me. On a side note, how many here were surprised that no signifcant label interest was shown for a band with Hagar, Schon, and Satriani?

[Matthew]

Actually, three albums on my playlist right now are new albums from Talisman, Danny Vaughn and Thunder which are every bit as good as anything they've ever done before. I'm also really looking forward to the new Rush album next week.

Marty - I haven't heard those albums - but Vaughn was impressive on the Journey tour wasn't he? As for Rush...well, I've been underwhelmed by every album since the utterly brilliant "Hold Your Fire" but I'll definitely give the new one a listen.

The best new music by a veteran of the 1980s I've heard recently is Zakk Wylde's Black Label Society. The last album Mafia is great stuff.

By contrast, I rarely listen to old albums from Black Sabbath, Whitesnake or Deep Purple the way I used to. I do agree that new music from old bands is often uninspired, but it depends on whether or not they still have the fire to produce genuinely new music and not just rehashes of their hits.

Same here Marty. Actually I did have a big Black Sabbath revival recently - especially the Dio years - but I rarely listen to Deep Purple who I used to love.

But I listen to AOR just as much now as I did in the 1980s. And I still think this genre of music peaked in the mid to late 1980s (I blame Bon Jovi for killing it off!). I've heard the occasional good studio album since then but nothing which can remotely compare to the 1976-1986 golden age. It might just be that AOR is an exhausted genre now...rather than the victim of an ignorant, youth-obsessed industry.

[Matthew]

I think Viv's still a very good guitarist, the only reason I've been interest in Def Lep at all for the last 15 years or so,
the Riverdogs album from 91 or 92 is his best work imo.

I'll check that out, NMT. Did you like the Shadow King stuff?

Regarding Hagar I recently heard Bob & Tom, nationally syndicated radio morning show, say he is the most real and genuine rock star they've encountered and the same guy during and post VH that he was in the 70s. Sammy has always seemed what you see is what you get to me.

Okay - maybe I was a bit harsh. I guess I'm just a bit suspicious when multi-millionaire rock stars and music industry players like Hagar and Springsteen act as if they're humble steelworkers from some run-down town in the heartland, etc,etc, etc. Maybe it's just a question of taste. I prefer to see rock stars behave like rock stars. I mean...Paul Stanley is humble and gracious in his way...but he never pretends he's just 'one of us'.

[NoMoreTails]

I think Viv's still a very good guitarist, the only reason I've been interest in Def Lep at all for the last 15 years or so,
the Riverdogs album from 91 or 92 is his best work imo.

I'll check that out, NMT. Did you like the Shadow King stuff? .

I really liked Shadow King at the time but it doesn't do as much for me now while I like Riverdogs as much as ever.
They're very different, as Shadow King was like Foreigner with a much better lead guitarist. Mick Jones had his strong points but playing lead wasn't the strongest of them. Riverdogs on the other hand was an album of (almost) folk songs injected with a dose of crunching guitar and great leads.

Regarding Hagar I recently heard Bob & Tom, nationally syndicated radio morning show, say he is the most real and genuine rock star they've encountered and the same guy during and post VH that he was in the 70s. Sammy has always seemed what you see is what you get to me.

Okay - maybe I was a bit harsh. I guess I'm just a bit suspicious when multi-millionaire rock stars and music industry players like Hagar and Springsteen act as if they're humble steelworkers from some run-down town in the heartland, etc,etc, etc. Maybe it's just a question of taste. I prefer to see rock stars behave like rock stars. I mean...Paul Stanley is humble and gracious in his way...but he never pretends he's just 'one of us'.[/quote]

To me the Cabo-party guy seems like the real Sammy. Evidently he really prefers the lazyass drunk Jimmy Buffet thing (though rocked up a bit more) to what Planet US could have been.

[cyndy!]

I really liked Shadow King at the time but it doesn't do as much for me now while I like Riverdogs as much as ever.
They're very different, as Shadow King was like Foreigner with a much better lead guitarist. Mick Jones had his strong points but playing lead wasn't the strongest of them. Riverdogs on the other hand was an album of (almost) folk songs injected with a dose of crunching guitar and great leads.

i feel the same. i have no desire to dig out the shadow king cd, but i have the riverdogs cd still in rotation. i was fortunate enough to see riverdogs a few times on their first tour & then again on their mini reunion tour a few years ago. the only reason i go to def leppard shows is to see viv.

[NoMoreTails]

I really liked Shadow King at the time but it doesn't do as much for me now while I like Riverdogs as much as ever.
They're very different, as Shadow King was like Foreigner with a much better lead guitarist. Mick Jones had his strong points but playing lead wasn't the strongest of them. Riverdogs on the other hand was an album of (almost) folk songs injected with a dose of crunching guitar and great leads.

i feel the same. i have no desire to dig out the shadow king cd, but i have the riverdogs cd still in rotation. i was fortunate enough to see riverdogs a few times on their first tour & then again on their mini reunion tour a few years ago. the only reason i go to def leppard shows is to see viv.

Unfortunately I'm still listening to it on cassette as I haven't run across it on cd since it first came out.
That's a show I'd love to have seen, I wish they'd finish the album they did some work on a couple of years ago. I think Campbell gets a bad rap from the DL fans who blame him for the direction they've gone in, that would be the course with or without his involvement. I liked Slang (the cd/not the song) really well which most hardcore DL fans don't seem to care for.

[Matthew]

I really liked Shadow King at the time but it doesn't do as much for me now while I like Riverdogs as much as ever.
They're very different, as Shadow King was like Foreigner with a much better lead guitarist. Mick Jones had his strong points but playing lead wasn't the strongest of them. Riverdogs on the other hand was an album of (almost) folk songs injected with a dose of crunching guitar and great leads.

I heard "One Dream" by Shadow King last year and I liked it a lot,actually. I love Gramm's voice though and I missed SK the first time around. Agree totally about Mick Jones' limitations as a guitarist, by the way.

Who was the vocalist on the Riverdogs album, NMT?

[NoMoreTails]

I really liked Shadow King at the time but it doesn't do as much for me now while I like Riverdogs as much as ever.
They're very different, as Shadow King was like Foreigner with a much better lead guitarist. Mick Jones had his strong points but playing lead wasn't the strongest of them. Riverdogs on the other hand was an album of (almost) folk songs injected with a dose of crunching guitar and great leads.

Who was the vocalist on the Riverdogs album?

Rob Lamothe. Andrew has provided news on his solo work and appearances on occasion. I believe Riverdogs continued with Campbell for a bit after he joined DL.

[Red13JoePa]

Other than Hysteria, I also prefer the Campbell era of DL.

[*Laura]

Shadow King!1990? Oh my...I completely forgot about that band! I think I still have the audio cassette buried somewhere in a box.
I remember one song I really liked,"Russia" was the name,loved Lou's voice on that one.
It would take forever to fast forward the tape to get to it,it was somewhere and the end of Side B or something like that...

[NoMoreTails]

Shadow King!1990? Oh my...I completely forgot about that band! I think I still have the audio cassette buried somewhere in a box.
I remember one song I really liked,"Russia" was the name,loved Lou's voice on that one.
It would take forever to fast forward the tape to get to it,it was somewhere and the end of Side B or something like that...

Russia was a great song and the only Gramm/Campbell co-write as Viv basically did only the lead guitars on that album.

[conversationpc]

Shadow King!1990? Oh my...I completely forgot about that band! I think I still have the audio cassette buried somewhere in a box.
I remember one song I really liked,"Russia" was the name,loved Lou's voice on that one.
It would take forever to fast forward the tape to get to it,it was somewhere and the end of Side B or something like that...

Russia was a great song and the only Gramm/Campbell co-write as Viv basically did only the lead guitars on that album.

"Russia" is one my favorite ballads of all time and it's not cheesy, either, which is rare in a ballad and Gramm's voice is perfect for it.

[*Laura]

Anyone knows if the album can be found on CD?I would buy it just for that song alone...I still have it in the back of my mind,now that I remembered it.
Beautiful song indeed.