When JY Makes Comments Like This About Dennis

[piecesofeight]

For some reason lately, I've been thinking about JY commenting in the past that Dennis wasn't really good for the band after TGI.
First off when I think about this comment, I just chuckle, because when was JY really good for the band on a level that Dennis was, and what did JY REALLY do for the band.
Then of course you have to think about how BABE, then Paradise Theater brought a whole new audience to the band..and this was of course after TGI, and mostly because of Dennis' contributions..if really not soley.
I just find this statement to maybe be one of the dumbest things JY has ever said.
Then too later, like it or not, Dennis had two large hits from Kilroy..one of which is huge today with 'pop culture'
When I hear JY talk today like he does about Dennis, it's like, why did he even then join Dennis for EOTC? Well..$$$$$$$$
Then from that, Dennis did very well with 'Show Me The Way'
I just don't think JY realizes how stupid he sounds when he dogs on Dennis, somoene who put Styx on the map, from every angle..beginning with when Lady finally got airplay. Someone who hasn't done shit for the band dogs someone who has done everything for the band that made it what it WAS.
Like it or not, you cannot disagree that most of Styx' success' were Dennis'.

[kipthekid]

If I had to guess, he was probably speaking of the way the band worked together. I believe all members of "classic Styx" refer to the way in which they worked on TGI as being the best, most collaborative process they had before or since. It's hard to argue with the results.

I always wondered - if things worked so swimmingly, what supposedly happened during Pieces of Eight? I know that Tommy had a major hand in the direction of the record - and Dennis has at times lamented that he didn't like his own efforts on that album - but did Styx suddenly break off into different "camps" after TGI? When I listen to Pieces of Eight, it sounds pretty "cohesive" to me. It's got a different sound than TGI - a bit more "pompous" and a bit more experimental/"progressive" in spots - but it was a very successful/popular record from a Styx fans standpoint. Critics, however, arguably gave Styx the worst reviews they had had to that point. Dennis' "I'M OK" is a classic Styx prog-pomp romp. "Pieces of Eight" is a terrific tune IMHO and Dennis' vocal on Queen of Spades is one his best EVER. I never understood why he eschewed it.

Obviously, Tommy and JY had issues with Dennis during Cornerstone. I could understand WHY they wouldn't want to follow-up "Babe" with "First Time." Forget Barry Manilow - doing this (especially in light of Dennis' voice and it's comparability to this group's lead singer) would have put them in "Air Supply" territory. Still, Styx was never more popular than they were with Cornerstone and Paradise Theater took them to new hights from there. My guess is that JY pocketed all of the $$ that came with the success of those albums.

IMHO - and this is JUST IMHO - I believe JY's anger at Dennis stems from his perception that he was always the one who backed Dennis - who literally had his back - and felt betrayed by Dennis treating Styx in the mid '90's as a little diversion that took him away from his visions of Broadway...all of which culminated in the BNW tour debacle. I can understand his anger - I wish he'd let it go publically - it's making him look like a schmuck and making Dennis out to be the more sympathetic character (something that was hard to do, IMHO, after Dennis' profanity laced tirade at Chuck as well as his 'refusal' to leave Chicago to work on BNW).

[stabbim]

I don't recall comments along those lines using 77-78 as the demarcation line for the band's relationship with DDY specifically. It's usually more 81-82 that gets cited for that, though obviously the band had already factionalized to some degree before then. There a comment from JY in BTM about DDY being good for "the first 10 years of this band" which would also seem to bear that out.

As far as JY's musical "importance" or lack thereof, I paraphrase Derek Sutton: "Is not spice an essential ingredient in the stew as well?" Sum of the parts, and all that.

[BlackWall]

Whether you like the direction the band went in with the end of the '70s or not, I truly think Dennis saved them, and helped transition them to keep them around. Not that they were in trouble at that point, but they couldn't keep doing albums like "TGI" or "POE" forever. Maybe Dennis took it too far with "Kilroy", and maybe "some" of his ballads were a little too sappy, but look at how many other rock bands started following his lead: Journey, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto; even Heart and Aerosmith eventually started scoring big with the ballads. I don't see any reason why Styx couldn't have just continued on with a "PT" kind of setup: a great pop/rocker in "Too Much Time On My Hands" and a fine ballad in "The Best Of Times.

[BlackWall]

J.Y. might also feel a little resentment because he was more or less the lead singer of Styx when they first started out. Maybe he always had some bitterness in the fact that Dennis scored it big as the vocalist for the band, and then completely took the direction of the band where he wanted it to go. I mean, think about it, at first they had J.Y. doing vocals on songs that Dennis wrote("You Need Love", "I'm Gonna Make You Feel It"); to go from that to being cut back to usually one track per album.. Maybe he also resents that he never has written(officially) a hit single for the band(save for a co-write on "Lorelei").

J.Y. has had his moments though. I don't think he's as good as he might "pretend" he thinks he is(reluctant legend, anybody?), but "Young Man", "Miss America", "Snowblind", "Double Life", "Heavy Water"(did he have a hand in writing this one?), and "These Are The Times" are all great songs. He would be missed, and he definitely has played a key part in the legacy.

[Zan]

It's just awesome how this topic never gets old.

Based what I've gathered from various people (and nothing more) that were around throughout the band's history, JY was always the "glue" that held this band together. He was the hardest working, most diplomatic, and least egotistical member of the "big three." It was JY who kept many of the guys from bailing or killing each other during the later 70s and early 80s. Based on the things I've heard, if it weren't for JY, Styx would have ceased to exist after Cornerstone...and possibly even Equinox. Not to take away from the efforts and talents of Tommy and Dennis the Magnificant, but without JY, it is unlikely any of us would have ever known how great they were at all.

But far be it for me to ruin another "hit maker" argument. I wasn't there. I've only gotten these stories second-hand. By all means, if anyone still needs to vent (gosh, it's been days)...continue discussing how JY was dispensable, how he has no right to complain, how his voice sucks, his guitar-playing is easily replicated, his facelift, the lyrics to "Top of the Woooorld," or whatever other favorite JY bashing topic you fancy. It's all good.

[kipthekid]

I've read some of the same things about JY and his role in keeping the band together. I didn't realize that it went as far back as Equinox, but I know that he was the ONE guy that kept egos/tempers in check.

Other things I've read indicate that he was the one guy who would support Dennis - give his ideas a "shot." IMHO, JY felt betrayed by Dennis one too many times and simply had enough.

With that in mind, JY should have ceased mocking Dennis' contributions (i.e. calling him the "other guy" when talking up LG) a LONG time ago. JY's a VERY intelligent man - he knows that not even the most anti-DeYoung Styx fan would minimize Dennis' pivotal role in Styx' success during its "prime."

As far as JY the musician/singer etc., his voice is CRITICAL in Styx' 3 part harmonies. And, while he wasn't the most prolific writer, he had some major contributions as a vocalist/writer in Styx' heyday - Midnight Ride, his vocal on "Turn Me On," Miss America, Great White Hope (a lost treasure IMHO), and one of my all time Styx/JY favorites "Half Penny/Two Penny." I also enjoyed his first solo album and loved his vocal on 'Waiting.'

As a guitar player, he's from another era - the early '70's. He's not a "shredder" and, arguably, he was a more nimble lead guitarist 30-35 years ago, but he's pretty solid. He did some excellent two-part guitar work with Tommy "back in the day."

[brywool]

while those songs brought new fans to the band, it also took a lot of them away.
Not that I'm a fan of JYs tunes, though some are cool, his harmony voice is a BIG part of Styx's sound and that was apparent from hearing his solo records. While those songs pretty much stunk, the backups sounded a lot more like Styx than either Deyoung or Shaw's solo efforts. So he's got a gripe with DeYoung. Big deal. Many fans have gripes with DeYoung or Shaw or Young. So what? The guy's entitled to his opinion. Jeez, if he's not just glorifying Dennis, it's like he's the anti-Christ or something. Truth be told, songs like Babe, First Time, and Roboto definitely put a dent in the bands image for a lot of their hardcore fans. JY's mentioned this. Shit, DENNIS has mentioned this. I support JY for telling the truth rather than sugar coating everything. The band is working harder than they ever have. Dennis is finally working his tail off too. I think it's the best for all concerned including fans of Styx the ROCK band.

[LifeGiver]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

[SuiteMadameBlue]

I heard "second hand" that Dennis and JY were actually really good friends through the early years, probably through the late 70's. Other members in the band weren't as good friends in which they'd hang out.

It's weird how "Mr. Roboto" keeps getting bashed within the band and to think that Dennis and JY were the ones the re-recorded it together for that commercial and supposely made a nice little cash-o-la. I also heard "second hand" that Tommy even received a little cash-o-la, even though he didn't re-record it, or something like that.

In MY opinion and I think I have stated this numerous times in the past 4 years of being on this forum, that the band Styx needed a "leader", someone to step up and "take control" and TO ME that was Dennis. From what I heard "second and third hand" that during some of the studio time the guys couldn't decide what to do with a few songs (okay, more than a few - LOL) , lyrics and musically and instead of just sitting going back and forth, back and forth, someone would make the decision and then they just went with it, or something like that.

[yogi]

Zan you forgot to bring up the epic JY tune 'Toys For American Boys'. Also how boudt when JY tried to be Pat Benatar in the video Wild Dogs In The Night.

Did JY get moooooore bang for the buck shaking his chest or did Pat???


These are two topics that need to be discussed more.

[Zan]

Zan you forgot to bring up the epic JY tune 'Toys For American Boys'. Also how boudt when JY tried to be Pat Benatar in the video Wild Dogs In The Night.

Did JY get moooooore bang for the buck shaking his chest or did Pat???

These are two topics that need to be discussed more.

By all means! Have a party!

[rajah2165]

It's just awesome how this topic never gets old.

Based what I've gathered from various people (and nothing more) that were around throughout the band's history, JY was always the "glue" that held this band together. He was the hardest working, most diplomatic, and least egotistical member of the "big three." It was JY who kept many of the guys from bailing or killing each other during the later 70s and early 80s. Based on the things I've heard, if it weren't for JY, Styx would have ceased to exist after Cornerstone...and possibly even Equinox. Not to take away from the efforts and talents of Tommy and Dennis the Magnificant, but without JY, it is unlikely any of us would have ever known how great they were at all.

But far be it for me to ruin another "hit maker" argument. I wasn't there. I've only gotten these stories second-hand. By all means, if anyone still needs to vent (gosh, it's been days)...continue discussing how JY was dispensable, how he has no right to complain, how his voice sucks, his guitar-playing is easily replicated, his facelift, the lyrics to "Top of the Woooorld," or whatever other favorite JY bashing topic you fancy. It's all good.

Dennis the magnificant - if you hadn't put that in there, your point might have had a tad of legitimacy..

[rajah2165]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

Hey Shane -

Bush sucks.

[stmonkeys]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

Hey Shane -

Bush sucks.

mark this one on the calendar... i'm actually agreeing with rajah!

[styxfansite]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

Hey Shane -

Bush sucks.

mark this one on the calendar... i'm actually agreeing with rajah!

Yeah, I am not to crazy about Kurt Bush either.

[RedWingFan]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

Hey Shane -

Bush sucks.

mark this one on the calendar... i'm actually agreeing with rajah!

Yeah, I am not to crazy about Kurt Bush either.

Yeah I think pretty much all of NASCAR sucks.

[LifeGiver]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

Hey Shane -

Bush sucks.

mark this one on the calendar... i'm actually agreeing with rajah!

I hope this doesn't become "gang up on the patriot" time.

-Shane

[Zan]

Dennis the magnificant - if you hadn't put that in there, your point might have had a tad of legitimacy..

Well, well, well...Rajah's finally trying to discredit something I write.

Lookie dude, take what you want, and leave the rest. I know how lots of people here think the man can walk on water (and if you don't agree, you're only reading my posts. LOL). But hey, if you're not one of them, just ignore those two words. The point still remains.

[Zan]

Yeah I think pretty much all of NASCAR sucks.

Ohfuckyeah.

[Grotelul]

For some reason lately, I've been thinking about JY commenting in the past that Dennis wasn't really good for the band after TGI.
First off when I think about this comment, I just chuckle, because when was JY really good for the band on a level that Dennis was, and what did JY REALLY do for the band.
Then of course you have to think about how BABE, then Paradise Theater brought a whole new audience to the band..and this was of course after TGI, and mostly because of Dennis' contributions..if really not soley.
I just find this statement to maybe be one of the dumbest things JY has ever said.
Then too later, like it or not, Dennis had two large hits from Kilroy..one of which is huge today with 'pop culture'
When I hear JY talk today like he does about Dennis, it's like, why did he even then join Dennis for EOTC? Well..$$$$$$$$
Then from that, Dennis did very well with 'Show Me The Way'
I just don't think JY realizes how stupid he sounds when he dogs on Dennis, somoene who put Styx on the map, from every angle..beginning with when Lady finally got airplay. Someone who hasn't done shit for the band dogs someone who has done everything for the band that made it what it WAS.
Like it or not, you cannot disagree that most of Styx' success' were Dennis'.

You and most everyone else here know absolutely ZERO about what it was like to be in JY's shoes throughout all of this so why continue making comments on it. Nothing burns me more than someone from the outside thinking they have this all figured out and always question...why does JY still say this and that and what a stupid fool he is and blah blah blah... JY was a huge part of making Styx what it was. Who wrote what and who had the hits are only pieces of a much larger puzzle. Without all of the pieces, it doesn't work.

[Zan]

You and most everyone else here know absolutely ZERO about what it was like to be in JY's shoes throughout all of this so why continue making comments on it. Nothing burns me more than someone from the outside thinking they have this all figured out and always question...why does JY still say this and that and what a stupid fool he is and blah blah blah... JY was a huge part of making Styx what it was. Who wrote what and who had the hits are only pieces of a much larger puzzle. Without all of the pieces, it doesn't work.

Jesus Bleepin' Christmas, this has to be the post of the decade.

[rajah2165]

For some reason lately, I've been thinking about JY commenting in the past that Dennis wasn't really good for the band after TGI.
First off when I think about this comment, I just chuckle, because when was JY really good for the band on a level that Dennis was, and what did JY REALLY do for the band.
Then of course you have to think about how BABE, then Paradise Theater brought a whole new audience to the band..and this was of course after TGI, and mostly because of Dennis' contributions..if really not soley.
I just find this statement to maybe be one of the dumbest things JY has ever said.
Then too later, like it or not, Dennis had two large hits from Kilroy..one of which is huge today with 'pop culture'
When I hear JY talk today like he does about Dennis, it's like, why did he even then join Dennis for EOTC? Well..$$$$$$$$
Then from that, Dennis did very well with 'Show Me The Way'
I just don't think JY realizes how stupid he sounds when he dogs on Dennis, somoene who put Styx on the map, from every angle..beginning with when Lady finally got airplay. Someone who hasn't done shit for the band dogs someone who has done everything for the band that made it what it WAS.
Like it or not, you cannot disagree that most of Styx' success' were Dennis'.

You and most everyone else here know absolutely ZERO about what it was like to be in JY's shoes throughout all of this so why continue making comments on it. Nothing burns me more than someone from the outside thinking they have this all figured out and always question...why does JY still say this and that and what a stupid fool he is and blah blah blah... JY was a huge part of making Styx what it was. Who wrote what and who had the hits are only pieces of a much larger puzzle. Without all of the pieces, it doesn't work.

No, YOU are wrong, sir. JY is a no talent has been who has rode a mighty wave that he was lucky as hell to catch. He is an inferior guitarist, a shitty songwriter, and an even worse vocalist. You could have replaced him with just about any halfway decent guitarist and Styx would have been just fine. Actually, they would have been better because you would have gotten one more DDY and TS song per album and not had to deal with the likes of Eddie, Great White Hope, Miss America, Midnight Ride, etc. etc. You would have also not had JY's off key background vocal screeching ruining what were some decent songs (Lonely People anyone?)

[rajah2165]

You and most everyone else here know absolutely ZERO about what it was like to be in JY's shoes throughout all of this so why continue making comments on it. Nothing burns me more than someone from the outside thinking they have this all figured out and always question...why does JY still say this and that and what a stupid fool he is and blah blah blah... JY was a huge part of making Styx what it was. Who wrote what and who had the hits are only pieces of a much larger puzzle. Without all of the pieces, it doesn't work.

Jesus Bleepin' Christmas, this has to be the post of the decade.

No its just a JY apologist who has no concept of reality...

[rajah2165]

I, for one, never cared for JYs voice or his songs. I found some of his songs to be offensive. I like Tommy Shaw and the way he was able to combine rock with melody and restraint. I was never a big Dennis fan (though I do like his songs alot), but that being said, his voice seem to go better with the band. I am a Styx fan for Tommy Shaw. I always skipped the JY songs on the albums and the songs that Tommy plays lead on IMHO are way better than the JY guitar leads (and I do play guitar so I know something about technique). For me JY was an adequate rhythm guitarist who should not have sung lead on anything. I will say that JYs stuff on Kilroy is my favorite part of that album - bleh!

-Shane

Hey Shane -

Bush sucks.

mark this one on the calendar... i'm actually agreeing with rajah!

I hope this doesn't become "gang up on the patriot" time.

-Shane

So wait, are you calling Bush a patriot? I didn't realize being a patriot meant killing some 4,000 of your own people in a war that you made up facts to get us involved?

[RedWingFan]

So wait, are you calling Bush a patriot? I didn't realize being a patriot meant killing some 4,000 of your own people in a war that you made up facts to get us involved?

Really? What facts were made up?

[7 Wishes]

Ummm...I think the whole precept that got "us" into the war, i.e. that Iraq was behind 9/11...a fact the Bush Administration tried to shove down our throats until they finally had to acquiesce, and admit that wasn't the case...but then, of course, they tried to suggest that "we" got into the war because Saddam was a "really, really, bad man". I've got news for you. There are 87 dictators in power in the world right now.

Guess what? More than a few of them are MUCH more dangerous to American security than Hussein ever was. Kim Jong, anyone? Bullshit. Pure hypocrisy, to invade a Muslim nation that had NO WMD's, and using aversionary tactics and "diplomacy" (a word that 43, unlike his brilliant statesman father, does not understand) when "confronting" North Korea, which is as clear and present a danger as the Soviet Union EVER was under any dictator up to and including Andropov). You can't win this one, dude. I voted for his father, so don't dismiss me as a "flag-burning liberal". W is the WORST "DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED" PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY. PERIOD.. And Cunnilingus Rice needs to shut up. She's the worst Yes Man/Woman in the history of the Western World.

[LifeGiver]

So wait, are you calling Bush a patriot? I didn't realize being a patriot meant killing some 4,000 of your own people in a war that you made up facts to get us involved?

I don't want to get into politics but you are a lost soul for saying these things. Bush has the gumption to stand up to the muslim wackos and protect you and you thank him by calling him a murderer and a liar. If you hate the country so much, go back to Pakistan or where ever you're from and pray to your allah about how much you hate George Bush all you want.

Say what you will about GW Bush, but he IS a patriot. He sticks to his guns even when its not politically correct to do so. Did you know before he took the courageous step in invading Iraq, his advisor came in and interupted him in prayer? He did NOT take this descision lightly. I have lost a friend in this war and how dare you imply that they died in vain!

We have a leader with conviction and a moral code - unlike the fornicator-in-chief who was in office before hand. Ask Vince Foster who the real murderer is. If Hilary is elected, you and the Iraqis can go rejoice in the street.

...getting off my soapbox.

-Shane

"Don't tread!"

[7 Wishes]

I don't want to get into politics but you are a lost soul for saying these things. Bush has the gumption to stand up to the muslim wackos and protect you and you thank him by calling him a murderer and a liar. If you hate the country so much, go back to Pakistan or where ever you're from and pray to your allah about how much you hate George Bush all you want.

Say what you will about GW Bush, but he IS a patriot. He sticks to his guns even when its not politically correct to do so. Did you know before he took the courageous step in invading Iraq, his advisor came in and interupted him in prayer? He did NOT take this descision lightly. I have lost a friend in this war and how dare you imply that they died in vain!

We have a leader with conviction and a moral code - unlike the fornicator-in-chief who was in office before hand. Ask Vince Foster who the real murderer is. If Hilary is elected, you and the Iraqis can go rejoice in the street.

...getting off my soapbox.

-Shane

"Don't tread!"

SHUT UP, you ignornant MORON. Did you buy Robertson's tapes that "confirmed" the Clintons were "directly responsible" for more than 100 murders in the 70's and 80's? I'm sure you did, you arrogant dittohead. I LOST A COUSIN in the first Iraq war, asshole. He DID die in vain. That is the tragedy! Wait...so Clinton lies about getting a blowjob, and he should be impeached, but Bush LIES (an undeniable fact) TO THE ENTIRE WORLD about Ifaq, and over 4,000 American soldiers and a quarter million Iraquis are dead...for what? NOTHING. And Bush shouldn't be impeached? History will certainly judge him as the worst American President, by far, but his ass should have been impeached a lont time ago. Cheney is the best insurance policy a President ever had.

Carl is going over there...he believes he's doing the right thing...and he is, by serving his country. It's the leaders of the U.S. and U.K. who did the wrong thing. All of us on the Journey board are praying for his safe return. He shouldn't have to be there...his family shouldn't have to spend every waking hour of their lives worrying about whether or not something awful is going to happen to him.

Clinton was one of the greatest leaders in the history of the world. Hell, Bush's dad was brilliant...history will judge him as one of the best Presidents. Unlike his idiot, gun-toting, cocaine-snorting, alcoholic dufus son, who cheated on his wife, too.

[LifeGiver]

Sorry for loving my country ::shrug::

-Shane