OT: Man-made global warming revisited...

[RedWingFan]

The issue isn't whether or not there is global warming. The issue is whether or not it's caused by man. The science is nowhere close to being settled like the Man-Made Global Warming Priests would have you believe.

This is false. The greenhouse effect has been simulated in labs....gases such as CO, CO2, and NO2 do trap heat.

Then could you explain these numbers for us please?
The atmosphere on Mars is 95% carbon dioxide, just shy of Venus's 96%. (The Earth's atmosphere, by contrast, is less than 0.04% CO2.) Average temperature on Mars? Eighty-one below zero.

Venus is 67 million miles from the Sun, the Earth 93 million miles away. Mars is 141 million miles away. The shorter the sun's rays to a planet the more intense the heat energy received is. Hence, Venus is a cauldron and Mars is an icebox compared to the Earth.

Why is Venus three times hotter on average than Mercury, which is right next to the Sun? Mars has 2400% more CO2 in its atmosphere than Earth and the avg temp is 81 below? It just points out that it isn't pollution. You are right it IS the sun.

[Saint John]

Worrying about Global Warming is for pussies.

[CatEyes]

Worrying about Global Warming is for pussies.

Beyond there be dragons!!!

[RedWingFan]

Worrying about Global Warming is for pussies.

Hey cut them some slack. They needed to come up with some other reason to scare us after the fraud "ozone hole" scare played out and proved them wrong. Some people just keep eating it up.

[CatEyes]

Worrying about Global Warming is for pussies.

Hey cut them some slack. They needed to come up with some other reason to scare us after the fraud "ozone hole" scare played out and proved them wrong. Some people just keep eating it up.

Guess the old "Arnel" scare didn't work then either!!!

[chf34jmac]

Well let's see, "The other side" is saying there is no problem according to you. But "your side" is saying oh my god the sky is falling today if we do nothing right this very second we're all going to burn to death by the 1 degree per hundred year cycle . Do you actually see any middle ground here. One side according to you preaches apathy and the other preaches through fear tactics. I personally do not see anything in there that leaves any common ground to get things fixed.

[Calbear94]

The issue isn't whether or not there is global warming. The issue is whether or not it's caused by man. The science is nowhere close to being settled like the Man-Made Global Warming Priests would have you believe.

This is false. The greenhouse effect has been simulated in labs....gases such as CO, CO2, and NO2 do trap heat.

Then could you explain these numbers for us please?
The atmosphere on Mars is 95% carbon dioxide, just shy of Venus's 96%. (The Earth's atmosphere, by contrast, is less than 0.04% CO2.) Average temperature on Mars? Eighty-one below zero.

Venus is 67 million miles from the Sun, the Earth 93 million miles away. Mars is 141 million miles away. The shorter the sun's rays to a planet the more intense the heat energy received is. Hence, Venus is a cauldron and Mars is an icebox compared to the Earth.

Why is Venus three times hotter on average than Mercury, which is right next to the Sun? Mars has 2400% more CO2 in its atmosphere and the avg temp is 81 below? It just points out that it isn't pollution. You are right it IS the sun. [/quote"]

...Mars has more carbon dioxide in its atmosphere than does Earth, but Mars has a lot less of everything else."
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~soper/Mars/atmosphere.html

Average temperatures on Earth have risen (3-5 degrees in the past 100 years), yet the Earth is still 93 million miles away. Are you suggesting the sun is getting hotter?

[RedWingFan]

Average temperatures on Earth have risen (3-5 degrees in the past 100 years), yet the Earth is still 93 million miles away. Are you suggesting the sun is getting hotter?

The sun does go through stages of increased activities of massive solar flares. Which have been known to disrupt cell phone towers and satellite communications. It does burn hotter at times.
http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/642-2.html

[Calbear94]

Well let's see, "The other side" is saying there is no problem according to you. But "your side" is saying oh my god the sky is falling today if we do nothing right this very second we're all going to burn to death by the 1 degree per hundred year cycle . Do you actually see any middle ground here. One side according to you preaches apathy and the other preaches through fear tactics. I personally do not see anything in there that leaves any common ground to get things fixed.

Just two degrees difference in ocean temperatures has HUGE consequences, changes in weather patterns and climates. Such a change, in the Gulf of Mexico would lead to more hurricanes and higher category hurricanes. If the Earth continues to warm at just the same rate as the past 100 years (and not increase) coastal areas will be flooded and inland semi-arid regions will become deserts.

I've tried to point out that changes in lifestyle due to changes in energy policy don't have to be as drastic as some might believe. I'd rather the economy evolve over the next 50 years than be expected to change overnight when oil reserves run out. There is just so much rhetoric, and unfortunately the U.S. provides alot of it. How can 169 countries of the world ratify the Kyoto agreement, and U.S. be one of just a small handful of countries not to (Australia was the other noteable exception)?

[Calbear94]

Average temperatures on Earth have risen (3-5 degrees in the past 100 years), yet the Earth is still 93 million miles away. Are you suggesting the sun is getting hotter?

The sun does go through stages of increased activities of massive solar flares. Which have been known to disrupt cell phone towers and satellite communications. It does burn hotter at times.
http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/642-2.html

How long do these solar flares usually last? More than 100 years?

[CatEyes]

I am neither defending nor arguing against either side in this debate.

It is very easy to read these numbers referenced to other planets and hundreds of years and not take it personally.

This is from my personal experience as it is now, regarding CO2

The CO2 level in my blood is 1 point higher than the O2 level. This has resulted in my being in a permanent state of respiratory failure - am fighting acidosis.

In order to get through day to day I need:

2 oxygen concentrators (1 for home 1 for the office - The oc removes the nitrogen from the surrounding air, and pushes humidified O2 into my lungs through a nasal cannula)

1 300 lb reservoir of liquid oxygen (used to fill my portable tank which I need for travel to and from work)

5 "E" tanks of O2 (these are for back up in case everything else fails)

And that is just from a 1 point difference in CO2 levels.

can't imagine what 2400 might be like.

probably not very pretty.

Cat

[Calbear94]

Worrying about Global Warming is for pussies.

Hey cut them some slack. They needed to come up with some other reason to scare us after the fraud "ozone hole" scare played out and proved them wrong. Some people just keep eating it up.

Why does Australia have the high skin cancer rate in the world?
http://www.sunsmart.com.au/browse.asp?ContainerID=1752


The good news is that ozone depletion has slowed down. Why? Because the countries of the world decided to do something about it, by reducing the use of CFCs, especially in aerosol cans. Of course, the economic impact of switching over to non-CFCs was not nearly as great as that would occur in reducing fossil fuel emissions.

[RedWingFan]

How can 169 countries of the world ratify the Kyoto agreement, and U.S. be one of just a small handful of countries not to (Australia was the other noteable exception)?

Because the Australians are also smart enough to know that when the Kyoto proponents state that total compliance with Kyoto would result in "maybe 7/10 of 1 degree" an amount that is too small to even measure. Keep in mind this is the figure that pro-Kyoto state. It doesn't take into account scientists that disagree. The fact is we can't cause the Earth to warm anymore than we can cause it to cool.

[Calbear94]

How can 169 countries of the world ratify the Kyoto agreement, and U.S. be one of just a small handful of countries not to (Australia was the other noteable exception)?

Because the Australians are also smart enough to know that when the Kyoto proponents state that total compliance with Kyoto would result in "maybe 7/10 of 1 degree" an amount that is too small to even measure. Keep in mind this is the figure that pro-Kyoto state. It doesn't take into account scientists that disagree. The fact is we can't cause the Earth to warm anymore than we can cause it to cool.

Or, it could be that Australia signed a huge deal with China in 2003 to provide natural gas.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 74,00.html

[RedWingFan]

Worrying about Global Warming is for pussies.

Hey cut them some slack. They needed to come up with some other reason to scare us after the fraud "ozone hole" scare played out and proved them wrong. Some people just keep eating it up.

Why does Australia have the high skin cancer rate in the world?
http://www.sunsmart.com.au/browse.asp?ContainerID=1752


The good news is that ozone depletion has slowed down. Why? Because the countries of the world decided to do something about it, by reducing the use of CFCs, especially in aerosol cans. Of course, the economic impact of switching over to non-CFCs was not nearly as great as that would occur in reducing fossil fuel emissions.

B.S. More junk science that was used. Recent studies link here. http://www.reason.com/blog/show/122712.html
Funny how this guy states their theory is blown apart. Then states that CFC's are still bad
Ozone is created by the sun. Ever think the hole widens and shrinks (cuz it does shrink) for a reason. Kind of like it was designed to do.

[RedWingFan]

How can 169 countries of the world ratify the Kyoto agreement, and U.S. be one of just a small handful of countries not to (Australia was the other noteable exception)?

Because the Australians are also smart enough to know that when the Kyoto proponents state that total compliance with Kyoto would result in "maybe 7/10 of 1 degree" an amount that is too small to even measure. Keep in mind this is the figure that pro-Kyoto state. It doesn't take into account scientists that disagree. The fact is we can't cause the Earth to warm anymore than we can cause it to cool.

Or, it could be that Australia signed a huge deal with China in 2003 to provide natural gas.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 74,00.html

Good for them. Since we're exchanging reading material. Read this and ask me how this latest hysteria is the real deal.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/special ... andice.asp

[Calbear94]

B.S. More junk science that was used. Recent studies link here. http://www.reason.com/blog/show/122712.html
Ozone is created by the sun. Ever think the hole widens and shrinks (cuz it does shrink) for a reason. Kind of like it was designed to do.

From the article you quoted: "This neat story of the scientific identification of a man-made cause for stratospheric ozone depletion followed by a successful international response to the threat <b>is now being challenged by some very recent research</b>."

Professional researchers get paid for challenging previous theories. Its part of the quest for truth. Show me that the ozone depletion theory has been DISPROVEN, not just challenged. There is a BIG difference.

For example, historians follow the scientific method in their research, so they are "scientists" in the philosophical sense. The 20th century brought exponential increases in the amount of historical research conducted, so "revisionism" became ever-more popular. In the 1990s, so bored or insensitive historians (particularly from UCLA) contended that the Holocaust did not happen. The historical community did not accept their arguments as truth, but in the process the Holocaust revisionists got fame, notoriety, and tenure by challenging the Holocaust.

There is data to support global warming, if not a conclusive link between human activity and climate change. Researchers need grants to fund their work and the oil industry has huge pockets, thus there will always be researchers trying to disprove global warming.

[RedWingFan]

In the 1990s, so bored or insensitive historians (particularly from UCLA) contended that the Holocaust did not happen. The historical community did not accept their arguments as truth, but in the process the Holocaust revisionists got fame, notoriety, and tenure by challenging the Holocaust.

Didn't think it'd take you that long to pull the "global warming denier" card.

There is data to support global warming, if not a conclusive link between human activity and climate change. Researchers need grants to fund their work and the oil industry has huge pockets, thus there will always be researchers trying to disprove global warming.

Yeah, research has been done for at least 100 years and they have warned of global warming and global cooling
Read up.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/special ... andice.asp

[Calbear94]

Good for them. Since we're exchanging reading material. Read this and ask me how this latest hysteria is the real deal.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/special ... andice.asp

Post WWII brought a huge boom in the construction of suburbs and highways, and economic prosperity that enabled all but the poorest Americans to be able to purchase a car, a big gas-guzzling behemoth. The demand for gasoline was met by desparate governments of oil-producing countries in the middle east, dying to improve their economies. Gas was dirt cheap. Carbon emissions measured in tons increased exponentially...it wasn't long until someone would make the connection to rising global temperatures.

[RedWingFan]

Good for them. Since we're exchanging reading material. Read this and ask me how this latest hysteria is the real deal.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/special ... andice.asp

Post WWII brought a huge boom in the construction of suburbs and highways, and economic prosperity that enabled all but the poorest Americans to be able to purchase a car, a big gas-guzzling behemoth. The demand for gasoline was met by desparate governments of oil-producing countries in the middle east, dying to improve their economies. Gas was dirt cheap. Carbon emissions measured in tons increased exponentially...it wasn't long until someone would make the connection to rising global temperatures.

How do you explain the drops in temps?
Did the invention of the catalytic converter and the cleaner burning cars cause the temp spike in the '80's? It's nonsense! No use debating. Dave and Crichton are right. It is a religion. The only difference is, your religion is demanding how many trillions of American dollars into your donation plate. No thanks.

[Calbear94]

In the 1990s, so bored or insensitive historians (particularly from UCLA) contended that the Holocaust did not happen. The historical community did not accept their arguments as truth, but in the process the Holocaust revisionists got fame, notoriety, and tenure by challenging the Holocaust.

Didn't think it'd take you that long to pull the "global warming denier" card.

Not at all. I'm just saying, that in the absence of real proof offered by a small portion of the scientific community, I'm inclined to believe in the larger body of scientific research that has been built up in support of global warming. This is not at all like the Earth is flat fallacy because of advances in science and technology over the past 500+ years. We are simply able to know and understand so much more about the physical world than during that era which featured a powerful religious organization (the Catholic Church) losing its grip as the ultimate source of knowledge.

[RedWingFan]

but for the U.S. whose lead in the development of alternative energy, which I feel is crucial to its longterm economic position.

The U.S. will develop the alternative energy solution when the free market demands it. That's the beauty of capitalism and the free market.

[Calbear94]

Did the invention of the catalytic converter and the cleaner burning cars cause the temp spike in the '80's? It's nonsense! No use debating. Dave and Crichton are right. It is a religion. The only difference is, your religion is demanding how many trillions of American dollars into your donation plate. No thanks.

Religions are based on faith, blind devotion. My belief in support of global warming (as is yours against) is based on an honest view of the facts. I've tried to show you how alternative energy can be part of a sound economic policy. Consider any "donation" as a short-term investment. Take solar panels, for example. Installing solar panels right now will add about $25K to the cost of a home. This cost will be paid off in savings on electricity in 12 years for most Americans. Meanwhile, energy efficiency would add to the immediate value of the home. Alternative energy technologies have matured, the costs have decreased. There will be some disruption to the economy, which is why a gradual phase-in would be best. If we wait another 50 years to do something, the economic upheaval and resultant political crises would be much greater.

[Calbear94]

but for the U.S. whose lead in the development of alternative energy, which I feel is crucial to its longterm economic position.

The U.S. will develop the alternative energy solution when the free market demands it. That's the beauty of capitalism and the free market.

We don't have as free a market as you may believe. Oil companies have powerful political lobbies. And just as much as the media likes to profit off of pro-global warming stories, there is money to be made by promoting contrary views. In the 1980s, when solar panels first came out they were enormously expensive, but almost 30 years later the technology is surprisingly affordable. The knock on Windmill technology used to be that it couldn't produce enough power to meet our needs, but the blades have gotten longer, thinner, and lighter. Oil companies don't want us to catch on that most alternative energy sources are now mature. Americans love their SUVs, and they react with hostility towards any perceived rhetoric that threatens their lifestyle. We already have flexible fuel SUVs. Lets take the next step towards flexible energy...electricity plus ethanol. Unless we tell our government representatives that we want change, they will listen to the more vocal interests...the powerful lobbies.

[G.I.Jim]

but for the U.S. whose lead in the development of alternative energy, which I feel is crucial to its longterm economic position.

The U.S. will develop the alternative energy solution when the free market demands it. That's the beauty of capitalism and the free market.

We don't have as free a market as you may believe. Oil companies have powerful political lobbies. And just as much as the media likes to profit off of pro-global warming stories, there is money to be made by promoting contrary views. In the 1980s, when solar panels first came out they were enormously expensive, but almost 30 years later the technology is surprisingly affordable. The knock on Windmill technology used to be that it couldn't produce enough power to meet our needs, but the blades have gotten longer, thinner, and lighter. Oil companies don't want us to catch on that most alternative energy sources are now mature. Americans love their SUVs, and they react with hostility towards any perceived rhetoric that threatens their lifestyle. We already have flexible fuel SUVs. Lets take the next step towards flexible energy...electricity plus ethanol. Unless we tell our government representatives that we want change, they will listen to the more vocal interests...the powerful lobbies.

I've read all of the posts in this thread, and you've come close to having me ram my head staight through this keyboard tonight!!! Everyone's got the right to have their own opinions and beliefs, but I just don't understand how ANYONE who is aware that the earth has gone through more than one ice age, believes in man-made global warming!!!??? Did the cavemen fart a lot in the caves to get it warm again? Maybe it was all of those damn global-warming wooly mamoths? Those smart bastards knew Al Gore was coming!

Seriously, how do you explain the earth heating up and cooling off BEFORE the invention of the internal combustion engine? The temperatures were at some of the lowest on record during the 30's and 40's (The huge beginning of the industrial evolution)!!! This was also at a time before the EPA controlled how much pollution the factories around this country could produce.

The U.S. may not have signed a friggin environmental treaty, but look at the environmental laws here verses China and the other countries you listed. Do you think their factories produce less toxins, or greenhouse gases? If so, you are saddly mistaken my friend!

Another point is this...Just because the "overwhelming majority" (To be another arguement) of scientists say one thing, doesn't mean a damn thing! The "Overwhelming majority" of scientists believed the earth to be flat at one point, that blood-letting was healthy, that the sun revolved around the earth, as well as a number of other major scientific screw-ups! Just because it's polular to believe certain things, doesn't make them true! Most scientists are too afraid to speak their actual beliefs from fear of losing grants, as well as they're jobs! Who in they're right mind WOULD speak up?

The same arguement goes to the scientists who don't believe in evolution. How many of THOSE scientists do you think get any of their research published in the scientific journals? NONE!!! Teachers and scientists alike have been removed from positions and careers for simply not going along with popular beliefs. These are the same teachers that say it's okay to pray in school, as well as hear "Merry Christmas" at Wal-mart. Heaven forbid we offend someone who doesn't believe in Christ! I know it may seem off subject, but many of you will agree. It's the left-wing liberals that shove this "Global warming" stuff down your thoat, that are ruining this country!

Calbear94...you said the earth's temperature has risen 4-5 degrees in the last century. Tell me, where did you come up with those facts??? I'm just curious, because this is the first place I've read of such a jump in temperature! Let me know!


Jim

[Rick]

You people can say what you want, but I don't see how anyone CAN'T see how we aren't causing the earth to warm. There are hundreds of millions of air conditioning units pumping heat into the air. There are hundreds of millions of square feet of concrete and asphalt that trap more heat than natural surfaces do. There are hundreds of millions of cars pumping heat and carbon monoxide into the atmosphere. There are thousands of refineries and industries that pump filth and heat into the air. And you can't see these things having an effect? I seriously doubt you believe what you're saying.

[G.I.Jim]

You people can say what you want, but I don't see how anyone CAN'T see how we aren't causing the earth to warm. There are hundreds of millions of air conditioning units pumping heat into the air. There are hundreds of millions of square feet of concrete and asphalt that trap more heat than natural surfaces do. There are hundreds of millions of cars pumping heat and carbon monoxide into the atmosphere. There are thousands of refineries and industries that pump filth and heat into the air. And you can't see these things having an effect? I seriously doubt you believe what you're saying.

Rick,

I like you. I agree with you that we do dump a lot of pollutants into the atmosphere. I recycle here at my own house!Yes, there's a lot of things that we as humans can do to clean up our act. That's totally different from the scare of man-made global warming though! Do you know that a volcanic eruption can put more polutants into the atmosphere than all of the man-made gasses combined since the beginning of man? Sure, we can all do our part to help the environment, but that's only a scratch of the surface to what mother nature does to itself! If you think we have caused the earth's temperature to rise, please read the facts. That's all I'm saying! Take care.


Jim

[Rick]

You people can say what you want, but I don't see how anyone CAN'T see how we aren't causing the earth to warm. There are hundreds of millions of air conditioning units pumping heat into the air. There are hundreds of millions of square feet of concrete and asphalt that trap more heat than natural surfaces do. There are hundreds of millions of cars pumping heat and carbon monoxide into the atmosphere. There are thousands of refineries and industries that pump filth and heat into the air. And you can't see these things having an effect? I seriously doubt you believe what you're saying.

Rick,

I like you. I agree with you that we do dump a lot of pollutants into the atmosphere. I recycle here at my own house!Yes, there's a lot of things that we as humans can do to clean up our act. That's totally different from the scare of man-made global warming though! Do you know that a volcanic eruption can put more polutants into the atmosphere than all of the man-made gasses combined since the beginning of man? Sure, we can all do our part to help the environment, but that's only a scratch of the surface to what mother nature does to itself! If you think we have caused the earth's temperature to rise, please read the facts. That's all I'm saying! Take care.


Jim

I know Jim, all I'm saying is that if you think about all of the heat we generate, and trap, it's got to have an effect. Think about all of the shingled roofs. Walk across a grassy area, then walk across a shingled roof. There's a dramatic difference. Same with pavement. The Dallas/Forth Worth area is 10 to 15 degrees hotter than the outlying areas around it. All the trapped heat, cars, and heat that is released from man made machinery is the cause of that.

[conversationpc]

And this is the prime example of why nothing will ever be settled or done about this problem. Neither side can concede that the other might be right in some ways. let alone either side coming up with any actual realistic ways of fixing the "problem"

Actually, I have stated several times that there could be some truth to the arguments of the man-maders. I just don't fall hook, line, and sinker for all of them.

[Marc S]

There's hope yet then, amongst the non-believers?