OT - Standing at the political crossroads

[ohsherrie]

Those polls will widen, a lot. I see a 60-40 Dem win. This won't be close.

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration in those poll results is that some of the people polled who want to see Obama get the nomination will say they'd vote for McCain instead of Hillary in order to try and influence the primary and caucus results. When it comes general election time though they'll vote Democratic.

[Rockindeano]

I am copy/pasting this from an article. It's what I would say myself, but am too lazy to type it out:

To date, she has been the better closer. And she has at her disposal the ultimate close -- "vote for both of us." If the conflicted voters were convinced that a vote for Sen. Clinton would guarantee a Clinton-Obama ticket, the last minute deciders would clearly break in full force her way.

[Blueskies]

A Clinton/ Obama ticket would be the best way to go...let Hillary go in and clean up Bush's mess...then after being VP Obama run after her term or terms are done. The dems look to the future with the prospect of longevity that way...as long as they do well when in office.

[CatEyes]

From my fave, Bob Lefsetz, http://www.lefsetz.com, regarding Obama - a slightly different view.

I was planning on voting for Hillary in the California primary. They don't come
any more intelligent, and she and Bill have not only the experience, but the
desire. They're wonks. They live to govern. But then I saw Frank Luntz on
"Bill Maher", and this Fox News pollster said the Republicans didn't know how to
run against Barack Obama.

I was wondering whether I'd become a Clinton myself, triangulating,
second-guessing the public. Sure, Hillary was a woman, but Barack was black.
And racism runs deep. I know, because I'm Jewish. Everything my father said
about anti-semitism turned out to be true. When the curtain closes, would
America really vote for a black man?

But now I was wondering... Had the country truly changed?

Sleeping on it, I woke up and I realized I had no problem with Obama, but I
hated so many of his supporters. The Hollywood celebrities, making videos,
dunning me. Who do they think they are? It's one man, one vote. And America
is sick and tired of the famous telling them what to do. And so am I.

But then I read Frank Rich's column in the Sunday "New York Times". And it
cemented the deal, I was going with Obama. He boiled it down to a question of
hope. Sure, Obama was about poetry, but could I believe? If Hillary was
President, there'd be trench warfare in Washington, D.C. But, if Obama was
elected, there was a chance this country would be swept up in optimism, change
could be effected, the Camelot of JFK could return. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/opini ... ref=slogin)

Still, I believe John McCain is a formidable candidate. That it's not a slam
dunk for the Democrats. So even though I was about to leave Felice's house,
when Steve Kroft announced he was going to interview Barack Obama on "60
Minutes", I decided to hang out, see what the candidate had to say.

And although poised, Obama was so young, and so thin! Could this guy really be
an effective President? Steve Kroft asked him about his experience.

Barack Obama responded that there are many old, established companies in
America, but only one Google, young, rich and successful. And that sealed the
deal. I'm an Obama man. I'll vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination, I'll
be unhappy if David Geffen gets the last laugh, but I want someone who lives in
the now, who knows what's happening today, not someone lost in the past.

A couple of good points - even if Hillary is the best choice and is elected, her opposition in Washington is ready
to just pounce on her ass as soon as the polls close.

And that could be a problem with any work she tries to do.

No one in Washington knows how to yell at Obama. No one ever took him serious enough to figure it out.

And while they are running around trying to figure out how to effectively hate him, Obama may just get a few things through.

Another point is Americans are fed up with begging.

It used to be different being an American - people were not thrown out of their homes, no one had to rob anyone else to buy enough gas to get to work at a job that does not pay enough to maintain a mortgage and force citizens to put essentials on credit cards that charge 46% interest. We helped the underdogs in the world.

Now our citizens have joined the ranks of the underdogs.

There aren't enough flea collars in the world

[Rockindeano]

A Clinton/ Obama ticket would be the best way to go...let Hillary go in and clean up Bush's mess...then after being VP Obama run after her term or terms are done. The dems look to the future with the prospect of longevity that way...as long as they do well when in office.

Like strangegrey said, the GOP has fucked up so bad, it will be a decade until they have another realistic shot. The Dems will have their Congress, and enough majority to pass bills.

I agree 100% on a Clinton/Obama ticket. I just don't know if Obama will do it. I know Hillary won't run as VP.

[Rhiannon]

I know Hillary won't run as VP.

I'm asking seriously, no puns. Why not? Is it pride, or she'd rather keep her Senate seat instead?

[Blueskies]

A Clinton/ Obama ticket would be the best way to go...let Hillary go in and clean up Bush's mess...then after being VP Obama run after her term or terms are done. The dems look to the future with the prospect of longevity that way...as long as they do well when in office.

Like strangegrey said, the GOP has fucked up so bad, it will be a decade until they have another realistic shot. The Dems will have their Congress, and enough majority to pass bills.

I agree 100% on a Clinton/Obama ticket. I just don't know if Obama will do it. I know Hillary won't run as VP.

Totally agree...and I hope Obama does sign on if Hillary wins, it would give him experience and be in position to run after her...he's a young guy. I don't see her agreeing to be a VP if the tables are turned either..she wants it all or nothing, I think.

[Rockindeano]

I know Hillary won't run as VP.

I'm asking seriously, no puns. Why not? Is it pride, or she'd rather keep her Senate seat instead?

I think it's her pride. She thinks she is the better candidate. That and the fact that she was the frontrunner all along, VP would be seen as failure.

Look, if the delegates were distributed like the GOP, this would be over. She would have a lot more than OB. But that isn't how they do it.

[Voyager]

A Clinton/ Obama ticket would be the best way to go...let Hillary go in and clean up Bush's mess...then after being VP Obama run after her term or terms are done. The dems look to the future with the prospect of longevity that way...as long as they do well when in office.

Like strangegrey said, the GOP has fucked up so bad, it will be a decade until they have another realistic shot. The Dems will have their Congress, and enough majority to pass bills.

I agree 100% on a Clinton/Obama ticket. I just don't know if Obama will do it. I know Hillary won't run as VP.

Totally agree...and I hope Obama does sign on if Hillary wins, it would give him experience and be in position to run after her...he's a young guy. I don't see her agreeing to be a VP if the tables are turned either..she wants it all or nothing, I think.

I don't think Obama would sign-on as VP for Hillary either. He's running as the anti-establishment candidate, and being her VP would go against that philosophy.

I think we may be in for a long, protracted fight - even if Obama ends up with more delegates than Hillary. The Clintons are very competitive, and both are lawyers. They won't let this go without a fight. I look for the tossed-out Michigan and Florida primary votes to be contested before this is over. However, the DNC may step in and call a winner to keep from a bunch of Democratic infighting prior to the General Election (which would only help the Republicans). No courts have jurisdiction over a party's ruling in the primaries.

[Rhiannon]

I know Hillary won't run as VP.

I'm asking seriously, no puns. Why not? Is it pride, or she'd rather keep her Senate seat instead?

I think it's her pride. She thinks she is the better candidate. That and the fact that she was the frontrunner all along, VP would be seen as failure.

Look, if the delegates were distributed like the GOP, this would be over. She would have a lot more than OB. But that isn't how they do it.

When she, and any other 'runner up' candidate should view the VP nod as a stepping stone to presidency in the next election. We'll see what happens... but I'm quickly becoming disinterested in this year's politics, because like you said, it's really a no-brainer about which party will walk away with a win. Regardless of personal views, it's obvious.

[lights1961]

THE LAST **MAN ** standing will be MCCAIN..

[ohsherrie]

I know Hillary won't run as VP.

I'm asking seriously, no puns. Why not? Is it pride, or she'd rather keep her Senate seat instead?

I think it's her pride. She thinks she is the better candidate. That and the fact that she was the frontrunner all along, VP would be seen as failure.

Look, if the delegates were distributed like the GOP, this would be over. She would have a lot more than OB. But that isn't how they do it.

As much as I truly believe that the Clinton/Obama ticket would be the best of all realistically possible situations this country could have, I don't think it's going to happen.

Don't forget, Edwards has 46 delegates he can give to whomever looks like they could best benefit from them and he's also a superdelegate. I originally said I didn't think he'd serve as VP in light of Elizabeth's health issues, but now I'm not so sure.

Maybe a deal has already been made. He and Obama were doing a little teaming up against Hillary right before he dropped out. Afterall, this is politics we're talking about.

[conversationpc]

I didn't say we couldn't talk about it, but I don't want to cloud the issue of why the Medicare Prescription Plan is a fiasco with it.

You brought that up as an example of the reps spending like libs and that was clearly not a good example because they didn't do it at all like the Dems would have. The reason they didn't is because the insurance industry is a republican special interest. In fact, during one of the Bush/Gore debates when asked about health care Bush said plainly and bluntly that he was not going to do anything to hurt any insurance companies.

I would need to see the exact answer he gave and the context in which it was given.

[strangegrey]

THE LAST **MAN ** standing will be MCCAIN..

Standing alone in a dark room, in tears...while either a woman or a black man celebrates just winning the presidency.

Sorry, McCain isn't going to be president. To do so would suggest that a majority of this country wants the status quo. THat's just not the case.

For every 20 republicans that voted for bush in the last 2 elections (both of which were RAZOR thin margins), there's at least 3-5 just like me, that are fed up with this party and are jumping to the other side. Right now, I'm a democrat....and I'll vote that way.

There's no WAY in hell that the republican party can win the general election after losing 15 percent of it's base!

[bluejeangirl76]

Good old George W has doubled the price of my gas (and that goes for every citizen on earth...nice one!!) and through his destroying of the US economy, has altered the currency exchange rates so much that I am working for 25% less than I was 2 or 3 years ago.

Thanks George!

You mean even as far as Aus-fucking-strailia no one is safe from this douchebag?
Boy he really knows how to spread the wealth. I mean collect the wealth.

I personally think George W. Bush deserves a worse fate than that of Suddam Hussein. And to think that that our Congress impeached Bill Clinton just for getting his cock sucked. WTF is wrong with this country???

It was a lesser offense than that, wasn't it? He was only impeached for lying about getting his cock sucked. But yeah, he's the bad guy. Gag me. Er.... nevermind.

[bluejeangirl76]

THE LAST **MAN ** standing will be MCCAIN..

Standing alone in a dark room, in tears...while either a woman or a black man celebrates just winning the presidency.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to elect someone his age anyway?
And before I'm accused of agism, think about it realistically. It's a valid concern.

[ohsherrie]

I didn't say we couldn't talk about it, but I don't want to cloud the issue of why the Medicare Prescription Plan is a fiasco with it.

You brought that up as an example of the reps spending like libs and that was clearly not a good example because they didn't do it at all like the Dems would have. The reason they didn't is because the insurance industry is a republican special interest. In fact, during one of the Bush/Gore debates when asked about health care Bush said plainly and bluntly that he was not going to do anything to hurt any insurance companies.

I would need to see the exact answer he gave and the context in which it was given.

It's in there somewhere:

http://www.debates.org/pages/debtrans.html

[conversationpc]

For every 20 republicans that voted for bush in the last 2 elections (both of which were RAZOR thin margins), there's at least 3-5 just like me, that are fed up with this party and are jumping to the other side. Right now, I'm a democrat....and I'll vote that way.

I just don't understand becoming a Democrat when they are just as bad as the Republicans. Hell, I used to consider myself a Republican but there's no way I'm tying myself to EITHER party. The majority of politicians on both sides are either in office for their own gain, corrupt, or both. I could even see becoming a Libertarian, as whacky as some of their ideas are, but at least they seem to still have a lot of candidates who are out for something other than themselves.

[Rockindeano]

THE LAST **MAN ** standing will be MCCAIN..

Standing alone in a dark room, in tears...while either a woman or a black man celebrates just winning the presidency.

Sorry, McCain isn't going to be president. To do so would suggest that a majority of this country wants the status quo. THat's just not the case.

For every 20 republicans that voted for bush in the last 2 elections (both of which were RAZOR thin margins), there's at least 3-5 just like me, that are fed up with this party and are jumping to the other side. Right now, I'm a democrat....and I'll vote that way.

There's no WAY in hell that the republican party can win the general election after losing 15 percent of it's base!

What's more important is Congress. The GOP is going to lose a lot of seats. THAT to me, is more important.

[ohsherrie]

THE LAST **MAN ** standing will be MCCAIN..

Standing alone in a dark room, in tears...while either a woman or a black man celebrates just winning the presidency.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to elect someone his age anyway?
And before I'm accused of agism, think about it realistically. It's a valid concern.

As is his unstable temper.

Before anyone asks:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 3006.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ap ... 23_000.htm

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/artic ... _is_tamed/

[scarygirl]

If the Democrats win it won't be because they have a better agenda for America, it will be because our Republican leaders have forgotten what made them different, less government, low taxes, and the belief that each man, woman, and child has the ability to do for themselves.

I'm not going to vote for Hilary or Obama due to lack of choices. I may not vote at all.

[Rockindeano]

To you Bushies, I should have said, "Congresh."

[ohsherrie]

I just don't understand becoming a Democrat when they are just as bad as the Republicans.

No, they're not. Both parties have some severe problems, our entire goverment and political system does, but for all practical and realistic intents and purposes it's what we currently have to work with. The problems that the Democrats have don't hurt or create hardship for as many American citizens as the republicans' do.

[conversationpc]

I would need to see the exact answer he gave and the context in which it was given.

It's in there somewhere:

http://www.debates.org/pages/debtrans.html

Without reading every word of each of those three debates that year, which I don't have time for, the closest I found were the following, which sounds about opposite of what you say he said...

From the 3rd Bush/Gore debate...

"Now there's what's called an Independent Review Organization that you have to go through first. It says you have a complaint with your insurance company, you can take your complaint to an objective body. If the objective body rules on your behalf, the insurance company must follow those rules. However, if the insurance company doesn't follow the findings of the IRO, then that becomes a cause of action in a court of law. It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people, and I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patient's bill of rights, Mr. Vice President, and I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas."

"If I'm the president, we're going to have emergency room care, we're going have gag orders, we're going to have direct access to OB/GYN. People will be able to take their HMO insurance company to court. That's what I've done in Texas and that's the kind of leadership style I'll bring to Washington."

[Rockindeano]

If the Democrats win it won't be because they have a better agenda for America, it will be because our Republican leaders have forgotten what made them different, less government, low taxes, and the belief that each man, woman, and child has the ability to do for themselves.

I'm not going to vote for Hilary or Obama due to lack of choices. I may not vote at all.

Waaa waaa.

Then don't complain and bitch when things don't go your way.


You won't even look into their plans, or ideas.

You may want to consider opening that mind just a tad. They are pretty smart people. Can't hurt to listen you know.

[conversationpc]

As is his unstable temper.

Before anyone asks:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 3006.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ap ... 23_000.htm

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/artic ... _is_tamed/

See George Stephanopoulos and Deedee Myers about Hillary's unstable temper problem.

[strangegrey]

I just don't understand becoming a Democrat when they are just as bad as the Republicans. Hell, I used to consider myself a Republican but there's no way I'm tying myself to EITHER party. The majority of politicians on both sides are either in office for their own gain, corrupt, or both. I could even see becoming a Libertarian, as whacky as some of their ideas are, but at least they seem to still have a lot of candidates who are out for something other than themselves.

Well, I'm not affiliating myself with any party right now. But for the upcoming presidential election, I think that the damage that John McCain will do to this country is far greater than anything Hillary or Obama could do. Moreover, I feel that Obama and/or Clinton stand a good chance at doing FAR more good.

So for this go around, I'm a democrat!

I keep myself free to reevaluate in the 4 years. But if the above stated prediction (Obama or Clinton doing good for this country) actually happens, it stands to reason I would be inclined to do it again in 4 years.

[Rockindeano]

Sherrie, bad move.

Temper is good.

Bill had one.

Hill has one.

McCain has one.

Who gives a shit.

Hill will get pissed and like Frank said, shove a F117 up Ahmenijhad's ass.

[strangegrey]

Good old George W has doubled the price of my gas (and that goes for every citizen on earth...nice one!!) and through his destroying of the US economy, has altered the currency exchange rates so much that I am working for 25% less than I was 2 or 3 years ago.

Thanks George!

You mean even as far as Aus-fucking-strailia no one is safe from this douchebag?
Boy he really knows how to spread the wealth. I mean collect the wealth.

Oil is a global market and its price (on the world market) is largely determined by a whole wealth of determinants. There's been PLENTY that Hayseed George did to raise the barrel price of oil. One could also make an argument that China's thirst for crude has increased over the past 8 years. HOWEVER, a very good reason why China demands more oil is that our hayseed douchebag of a president, while selling out US citizens and creating trade policy that allowed for a mass exodus of jobs/products to China....Bush actually gave China the very scenario with which it has a greatly increased thirst for oil. It's all inter-related.

The fact of the matter is that George has done his fair share to ruin global markets AND domestic markets. I'm sure that the rest of the world is going to cheer in one unified voice when that fucker gets on Air Force 1 bound for Texas for the last time, next january!

[conversationpc]

The problems that the Democrats have don't hurt or create hardship for as many American citizens as the republicans' do.

I've seen enough of how the Democratic establishment does its deeds to buy into that line of bull. They pulled the same things when they were in control of the congress and I've seen the same thing happen on a local level in Indianapolis.