OT - Standing at the political crossroads

[Rockindeano]

Good post Frank.

Oil. Is it that needed? Canada produces as much as anyone in the world, yet we still order from overseas?

Alternative fuels is not some pipe dream any more. Brazil, a large state, is 100% oil free! if they can do it, can't the mighty USA?

[strangegrey]

From my fave, Bob Lefsetz, http://www.lefsetz.com, regarding Obama - a slightly different view.

Cat, that Lefsetz article sounds like a conversation my wife and I had. She's a little more for Obama than I am. I'm more in Hillary's camp. She likes the idea that Obama represents us. Our generation. Not that Hillary doesnt, but Obama (according to her) seems to be in the here and now and is interested in representing our interests. Like I said previously, the economic movers of this country....the 30-50 somethings.

I dont think Hillary is out of touch...and I also think she might have more experience in certain things, that Obama clearly doesnt. Maybe that point doesn't matter, because we know whether it's Hillary or Obama, they will surround themselves with smart people.

This thread is more to do with why me, a seasoned republican, can no longer call himself one...and far less to do with whether Obama or Hillary can do the job better...as I think that EITHER of them can do the job better than McCain or anyone else the Republican party can throw into office.

When the best you have to offer is 2 generations of Bush, a Dole and a McCain.....the party has lost touch with america. Fuck them....they've lost me!

[ohsherrie]

I would need to see the exact answer he gave and the context in which it was given.

It's in there somewhere:

http://www.debates.org/pages/debtrans.html

Without reading every word of each of those three debates that year, which I don't have time for, the closest I found were the following, which sounds about opposite of what you say he said...

From the 3rd Bush/Gore debate...

"Now there's what's called an Independent Review Organization that you have to go through first. It says you have a complaint with your insurance company, you can take your complaint to an objective body. If the objective body rules on your behalf, the insurance company must follow those rules. However, if the insurance company doesn't follow the findings of the IRO, then that becomes a cause of action in a court of law. It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people, and I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patient's bill of rights, Mr. Vice President, and I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas."

"If I'm the president, we're going to have emergency room care, we're going have gag orders, we're going to have direct access to OB/GYN. People will be able to take their HMO insurance company to court. That's what I've done in Texas and that's the kind of leadership style I'll bring to Washington."

I'm not going to look through them all either but that's not the comment I'm talking about. Since you found that one though, let's talk about it. Has he done, or even proposed, anything that vaguely resembles that?

[strangegrey]

Good post Frank.

Oil. Is it that needed? Canada produces as much as anyone in the world, yet we still order from overseas?

I agree...Canada *does* produce alot of oil...and we also have a good amount of untouched oil here. However, the unfortunate aspect to this is that unless we nationalize our oil markets (and canada does the same), domestic (and canadian) oil markets will always sell to the higher bidder. If China, India, Europe, etc are willing to buy oil at 100-200 dollars a barrel...and we can only afford $99, we're shit out of luck unless we have nationalized oil markets that will fix a price that we can afford. Part of this has to do with our weak dollar (I dont want to even think about what's going to happen if OPEC starts demanding that we pay for oil in Euro's instead of Dollars, which they've been recently threatening....if that happens, INSTANT depression)...part of it is supply and demand (china)....part of it is that the middle east fucking hates us and OPEC sees it as a form of control.

Alternative fuels is not some pipe dream any more. Brazil, a large state, is 100% oil free! if they can do it, can't the mighty USA?

I'm with you man. I used to be one of those guys that scoffed at environmentalists. I wouldn't drive a car that had less than 8 cyl. and produced less than 300hp. I thought recycling was stupid and I thought that Global Warming was propaganda bullshit. I no longer think so. I've gone green. I leased a 4 cyl Honda last year...that gives me over 34mpg, I *almost* got a hybrid instead. In fact, my next car will likely be a hybrid. My next computer will be a mac. and I'll no longer scoff at the environmentalist POV.

I would LOVE to see this nation go oil free...it IS no longer a pipe dream. It's possible. But it's going to take hard work, throwing out the detroit public interests out of washington on their fucking ass. We might have to accept the fact that GM and Ford would have to either change or die...and we're going to have to suck it up and spend some money on new infrastructure here in the states.

Hard to spend money on new infrastructure (like bridges that might collapse in Minnesotta) when you're fighting a war in the middle east to preserve the outdated, environmentally destructive energy source that you should spend money on new infrastructure to break away from.

Bring our fucking soldiers home and put them to work building new bridges here in the states.

[conversationpc]

From the 3rd Bush/Gore debate...

"Now there's what's called an Independent Review Organization that you have to go through first. It says you have a complaint with your insurance company, you can take your complaint to an objective body. If the objective body rules on your behalf, the insurance company must follow those rules. However, if the insurance company doesn't follow the findings of the IRO, then that becomes a cause of action in a court of law. It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people, and I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patient's bill of rights, Mr. Vice President, and I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas."

"If I'm the president, we're going to have emergency room care, we're going have gag orders, we're going to have direct access to OB/GYN. People will be able to take their HMO insurance company to court. That's what I've done in Texas and that's the kind of leadership style I'll bring to Washington."

I'm not going to look through them all either but that's not the comment I'm talking about. Since you found that one though, let's talk about it. Has he done, or even proposed, anything that vaguely resembles that?

Not that I'm aware of and therein lies my assertion that Bush has not been quite the representative of the conservative cause that some liberals seem to believe. In other words, he doesn't represent my political ideals in deed.

[Rockindeano]

Good post Frank.

Oil. Is it that needed? Canada produces as much as anyone in the world, yet we still order from overseas?

I agree...Canada *does* produce alot of oil...and we also have a good amount of untouched oil here. However, the unfortunate aspect to this is that unless we nationalize our oil markets (and canada does the same), domestic (and canadian) oil markets will always sell to the higher bidder. If China, India, Europe, etc are willing to buy oil at 100-200 dollars a barrel...and we can only afford $99, we're shit out of luck unless we have nationalized oil markets that will fix a price that we can afford. Part of this has to do with our weak dollar (I dont want to even think about what's going to happen if OPEC starts demanding that we pay for oil in Euro's instead of Dollars, which they've been recently threatening....if that happens, INSTANT depression)...part of it is supply and demand (china)....part of it is that the middle east fucking hates us and OPEC sees it as a form of control.

Alternative fuels is not some pipe dream any more. Brazil, a large state, is 100% oil free! if they can do it, can't the mighty USA?

I'm with you man. I used to be one of those guys that scoffed at environmentalists. I wouldn't drive a car that had less than 8 cyl. and produced less than 300hp. I thought recycling was stupid and I thought that Global Warming was propaganda bullshit. I no longer think so. I've gone green. I leased a 4 cyl Honda last year...that gives me over 34mpg, I *almost* got a hybrid instead. In fact, my next car will likely be a hybrid. My next computer will be a mac. and I'll no longer scoff at the environmentalist POV.

I would LOVE to see this nation go oil free...it IS no longer a pipe dream. It's possible. But it's going to take hard work, throwing out the detroit public interests out of washington on their fucking ass. We might have to accept the fact that GM and Ford would have to either change or die...and we're going to have to suck it up and spend some money on new infrastructure here in the states.

Hard to spend money on new infrastructure (like bridges that might collapse in Minnesotta) when you're fighting a war in the middle east to preserve the outdated, environmentally destructive energy source that you should spend money on new infrastructure to break away from.

Bring our fucking soldiers home and put them to work building new bridges here in the states.

You have any idea how fucking smart and sensible you sound?

Dude, we go oil free, the rest of the world will either die or give us 24 hour/7 daya week blow jobs. We can literally say "Fuck you" and bring all the troops home like you say, and pour billions into defending our shores and borders, rather throw up a fucking wall with a gator moat along the southern border. That border should have billions of dollars added to it's defensive aspect.

Gee, you ever wonder why oil is still prominent? Look at Cheney, Bush and all those fuckers. Oil elected them, and are now being reimbursed. Isn't too hard to see.

Hillary wants to take away the tax we pay to subsidize oil companies. Yes, we subsidize oil companies.

[strangegrey]

well, sometimes it takes a while for some of us meat-heated ex-republicans to come around...

[bluejeangirl76]

I'm not going to vote for Hilary or Obama due to lack of choices. I may not vote at all.

We may disagree on a lot of things, scary, but I find that to be a much more respectable choice than those who aim for the "lesser of two evils".

George Carlin once had a 'bit' about voting and people who complain about the elected officials, etc. It was to the effect of "if you aren't going to vote, you don't have the right to complain about those are voted in, etc..." and the point he was making was "if I don't vote, I have every right right to complain about the asshole YOU people elected." Granted, it was funnier when he said it.

I can see both sides of the coin on it though. If you don't vote, don't complain because you didn't do your part to change anything BUT... at the same time, why get involved if you don't truly believe in either side. I think it's more important to believe in what your voting for than to pick someone you don't really care about just to defeat the ones you dislike more.

[strangegrey]

I used to vote that way. I've never been happy with the republican choice, from Bush 41 on...and really, Bush41 v Bill Clinton was the first presidential election I could vote in.

I had assumed that clinton was the greater evil, so I voted for Bush. I hadn't considered EITHER candidate with what GOOD they could do, just who was going to bring less bad....and I chose Bush41. I never stopped to think about how this country would have gotten along with Bush41 in office between 92-96. I suspect we would have invaded iraq and we'd be in this mess 10 years earlier than now.

What really resonates with the above, is what if that actually happened. What if we went into Iraq full bore in 1993 and by 96, we were mired in a recession, all sorts of crapola left over from years of bullshit war.

Well, we would have never caught the tech wave in 97-98, the stock market would have never increased the way it did and we'd actually be a WHOLE shitload more worseoff now, with Bush41 in office.


My contribution to electing republicans that ruin this country ends now!

[conversationpc]

Dude, we go oil free, the rest of the world will either die or give us 24 hour/7 daya week blow jobs. We can literally say "Fuck you" and bring all the troops home like you say, and pour billions into defending our shores and borders, rather throw up a fucking wall with a gator moat along the southern border. That border should have billions of dollars added to it's defensive aspect.

This I can agree with.

[conversationpc]

Yoy libs are killing me today...

OIL is to expensive waaa waaa waaa! Bush's fault, waaa waaa waaa. Have any of you you folks ever heard of supply and demand?
Do you not understand that your own fucking party wont let us drill here at home, off of Florida in ANWR or anywhere else that might "hurt" their precious enviroment. Fucking crazy! Al Gores homes use more energy than some small cities and he flies the world over spewing jet emmissions like a drunken sailor. Kennedys won't allow a wind farm off of Cape Cod cause they might see it from their compound. And you have the gall to blame it all on Bush?

Seriously, without looking it up, can anyone here tell me which country supplies the USA with the most barrels of oil per day.

Multi-choice

A. Saudi Arabia
B. Mexico
C. Iran
D. Kuwait
E. Iraq
F. Brazil
G. Nigeria
H. Venezuela
I. None of the above

I believe it's either Mexico or Canada, if my memory serves me correctly.

[strangegrey]

Yoy libs are killing me today...

OIL is to expensive waaa waaa waaa! Bush's fault, waaa waaa waaa. Have any of you you folks ever heard of supply and demand?
Do you not understand that your own fucking party wont let us drill here at home, off of Florida in ANWR or anywhere else that might "hurt" their precious enviroment. Fucking crazy! Al Gores homes use more energy than some small cities and he flies the world over spewing jet emmissions like a drunken sailor. Kennedys won't allow a wind farm off of Cape Cod cause they might see it from their compound. And you have the gall to blame it all on Bush?

Seriously, without looking it up, can anyone here tell me which country supplies the USA with the most barrels of oil per day.

Multi-choice

A. Saudi Arabia
B. Mexico
C. Iran
D. Kuwait
E. Iraq
F. Brazil
G. Nigeria
H. Venezuela
I. None of the above

Irrelevant. The oil market is a global one. It doesn't matter one iotta if it comes from Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mexica, here or Venezuela. The fact remains that what happens with Iran's oil production has a direct effect on what our price paid is. Whether we could drill here, at ANWR, off the coast of texas, etc...is not going to solve this problem.

Geting completely off of the oil gravy train, is, however!


However, in answer to your question, I, none of the above. We get most our oil from canada....but as already stated, the source is irrelevant as Canada's oil prices are determined by global conditions....mostly from factors in the middle east and OPEC.

[ohsherrie]

Don't forget, Edwards has 46 delegates he can give to whomever looks like they could best benefit from them

Edwards has 26 delegates.

GMA reported it at 46 but he can still bargain with the ones he has.

[ohsherrie]

I've seen enough of how the Democratic establishment does its deeds to buy into that line of bull. They pulled the same things when they were in control of the congress and I've seen the same thing happen on a local level in Indianapolis.

Such as?

[ohsherrie]

Corporate profits receive a lot of media attention, but what receives considerably less attention are the corporate taxes paid on corporate profits. Do a Google search for "Exxon profits" and you'll get about 8,000 hits. Now try "Exxon taxes" and you'll get a little more than 300 hits.

I'm pretty sure that Exxon's tax payment in 2007 of $30 billion (that's $30,000,000,000) is a record, exceeding the $28 billion it paid last year.

I wonder how much more they'll have to pay to pay back the subsidies(corporate welfare) they've been getting since 2001.

[strangegrey]

Diverting this thread to corporate profits is hardly doing the main topic justice. Whether or not Exxon is a good corporate citizen and pays its taxes doesn't put more money in the pocket of the poor schrub that is paying TWICE as much at the pump as he had back when Clinton was in the house.

The fact still remains that Hayseed george created the environment with which Exxon is reaping these windfall profits....and sherrie's question is a valid one, how does the subsidies come into play here?


End result, is that Hayseed George has been concerned with Exxon far more than he's been concerned with how much it costs me to fill my tank. In 1989, I was able to fill my tank for less than 15 bucks. 99 cents a gallon. Bush41 left office, the fucking cost of gas was between 20-40 percent higher. Clinton enters office, and leaves office, a gain of only 10-15 percent.

Bush 43 enters office and leaves office while overseeing a gain of more than 50%.

WTF!

[Rockindeano]

Lie Finder is riled up. He is really copying and pasting at a fervent rate.

Won't matter dickweed, your time is just about up.

Hahahahfuckyouhaha!

[conversationpc]

I've seen enough of how the Democratic establishment does its deeds to buy into that line of bull. They pulled the same things when they were in control of the congress and I've seen the same thing happen on a local level in Indianapolis.

Such as?

Ever heard of Dan Rostenkowski?
Marion Barry
Al Gore (can you say illegal fundraising)
Barney Frank
Wisconson Senate Majority Leader Chuck Chvala
Ted Kennedy (Chappaquiddick?)
etc., etc.

[ohsherrie]

I really don't see how anyone can have the nerve to use an oil company as an example of the ratio of taxes paid to earnings. Of course they do figure greatly into that figure of the upper 1 - 5% who pay the most taxes and that figure doesn't include the corporate welfare and various other subsidies that were paid to those corporations either.

[conversationpc]

Lie Finder is riled up. He is really copying and pasting at a fervent rate.

Won't matter dickweed, your time is just about up.

Hahahahfuckyouhaha!

I still haven't seen anyone other than 7 Wishes admit that Fact Finder was right about that one article they were discussing last week or whenever it was. You guys laughed at Fact Finder and he ended up being correct on that one.

[ohsherrie]

I've seen enough of how the Democratic establishment does its deeds to buy into that line of bull. They pulled the same things when they were in control of the congress and I've seen the same thing happen on a local level in Indianapolis.

Such as?

Ever heard of Dan Rostenkowski?
Marion Barry
Al Gore (can you say illegal fundraising)
Barney Frank
Wisconson Senate Majority Leader Chuck Chvala
Ted Kennedy (Chappaquiddick?)
etc., etc.

And they compare in their effect on the quality of life of the American people in what way? They compare in general relevance about as much as blow job does to selling out American jobs and the war in Iraq.

[RedWingFan]

I'm with you man. I used to be one of those guys that scoffed at environmentalists. I wouldn't drive a car that had less than 8 cyl. and produced less than 300hp.

So now you want to vote for Democrats who want to strip that freedom for those who still wish to drive those vehicles. Heavier vehicles that when driven responsibly keep ones family safer?

In 2001, Charli E. Coon, J.D. of the Heritage Foundation wrote:

The evidence is overwhelming that CAFE standards result in more highway deaths. A 1999 USA TODAY analysis of crash data and estimates from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety found that, in the years since CAFE standards were mandated under the Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975, about 46,000 people have died in crashes that they would have survived if they had been traveling in bigger, heavier cars. This translates into 7,700 deaths for every mile per gallon gained by the standards.

46,000 deaths from '75-99 = 1,900 people dying a year.

I thought recycling was stupid and I thought that Global Warming was propaganda bullshit. I no longer think so. I've gone green.

Well first off I know you're new to this, the current term is "Climate change". There is evidence that the Earth stopped warming in '98 and shows we're cooling off. Remember "Climate change" is the new propaganda word.

I leased a 4 cyl Honda last year...that gives me over 34mpg, I *almost* got a hybrid instead. In fact, my next car will likely be a hybrid. My next computer will be a mac. and I'll no longer scoff at the environmentalist POV.

If it makes you feel better to buy a hybrid I'm all for it. I think you should have the freedom to buy and drive what you want. That's where conservatives and liberals differ.

I would LOVE to see this nation go oil free...it IS no longer a pipe dream. It's possible.

Sure, and if gas prices continue to climb. The free market will dictate a boom in alternative energy and the big 3 will have to give customers what they want.

Hard to spend money on new infrastructure (like bridges that might collapse in Minnesotta) when you're fighting a war in the middle east to preserve the outdated, environmentally destructive energy source that you should spend money on new infrastructure to break away from.

Bring our fucking soldiers home and put them to work building new bridges here in the states.

Ridiculous statement. You're off to a pretty good liberal start railing on emotion rather than facts. That bridge collapse had nothing to do with lack of funding. It was a design flaw.

By FREDERIC J. FROMMER
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Steel plates connecting beams in the Interstate 35W bridge in Minneapolis were too thin by half and fractured, "the critical factor" in the collapse that killed 13 people and injured 145, the National Transportation Safety Board said Tuesday.

The connectors, called gusset plates, were roughly half the 1-inch thickness they should have been because of a design error, NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker said. Investigators found 16 fractured gusset plates from the bridge's center span.

"It is the undersizing of the design which we believe is the critical factor here. It is the critical factor that began the process of this collapse. That's what failed," Rosenker said at a news conference

Why all the bitching and moaning about the economy anyway. Last week the great Bill Clinton said, "We just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren."

Which do you want? A strong economy or to "save the planet"?
But for the record there's no way I can vote for that liberal John McCain either. But that doesn't mean that I'll vote for socialists like Hillary or Obama either. I'm gonna vote for the most conservative, House, Senate, and State candidates that I can.
Good rule of thumb. If you want more of something "subsidize it"! If you want less of something "tax it".

[Rockindeano]

Lie Finder is riled up. He is really copying and pasting at a fervent rate.

Won't matter dickweed, your time is just about up.

Hahahahfuckyouhaha!

I still haven't seen anyone other than 7 Wishes admit that Fact Finder was right about that one article they were discussing last week or whenever it was. You guys laughed at Fact Finder and he ended up being correct on that one.

I NEVER read any of your links, Lie Finders or RWF's. No offence, but I dont need some conservative writer being judge juror and executioner.

You all are fucking warped. keep listening to Fixed Noise and Rush.

[ohsherrie]

Shirley you know that...

My name isn't Shirley.

But I'll address your point anyway. Who started corporate welfare isn't the issue. That has nothing to do with the blatant, self-serving, misuse of it during the current administration.

[Rockindeano]

And for the record, when Hillary or OB get in, and they fuck up, I will admit to it, front and center, right here. I won't spin like a top, like RWF does

[Barb]

I really don't see how anyone can have the nerve to use an oil company as an example of the ratio of taxes paid to earnings. Of course they do figure greatly into that figure of the upper 1 - 5% who pay the most taxes and that figure doesn't include the corporate welfare and various other subsidies that were paid to those corporations either.

Actually, I believe the 1-5% who pay the most taxes only include individuals, not corporations.

[Rockindeano]

Shirley you know that...

My name isn't Shirley.

But I'll address your point anyway. Who started corporate welfare isn't the issue. That has nothing to do with the blatant, self-serving, misuse of it during the current administration.

Right, I get it.

There was never any blatant, self-serving, misuse of it during Your Guys terms. Of course Hill or Obama will fix this post haste, just as soon as they get all the soldiers home.

Pretty much yeah, they will fix it and they will bring the troops home. You comin around like frank?

[RedWingFan]

And for the record, when Hillary or OB get in, and they fuck up, I will admit to it, front and center, right here. I won't spin like a top, like RWF does

So when they don't get our soldiers home within a year then you'll give them the Bush treatment right?

[ohsherrie]

I really don't see how anyone can have the nerve to use an oil company as an example of the ratio of taxes paid to earnings. Of course they do figure greatly into that figure of the upper 1 - 5% who pay the most taxes and that figure doesn't include the corporate welfare and various other subsidies that were paid to those corporations either.

Actually, I believe the 1-5% who pay the most taxes only include individuals, not corporations.

Yeah, and those individuals are CEOs and CFOs of the corporations that are reaping the profits that are being subsidized.

[Barb]

I really don't see how anyone can have the nerve to use an oil company as an example of the ratio of taxes paid to earnings. Of course they do figure greatly into that figure of the upper 1 - 5% who pay the most taxes and that figure doesn't include the corporate welfare and various other subsidies that were paid to those corporations either.

Actually, I believe the 1-5% who pay the most taxes only include individuals, not corporations.

Yeah, and those individuals are CEOs and CFOs of the corporations that are reaping the profits that are being subsidized.

You're a lost cause. Nevermind.